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Is FE 7's story really that bad?


Spectraman
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Here I think is outline of Nergal's opportunities: 

  1. Tricks Ninian and Nils to crossing over the Dragon's Gate. Doesn't summon more dragons. Why? Probably not enough quintessence to control them, which would be reasonable if he was just testing out the Gate when Ninian and Nils came over. If he couldn't lure anyone through the Gate, he couldn't open it and collecting quintessence for the task would be meaningless.
  2. Hector C21- Nergal tries using Ninian to open the Dragon's Gate. Despite not having started the war he was planning to get a massive amount of quintessence from, Nergal is able to get the necessary amount just from killing Elbert. Tries to kill LEH via the Fire Dragon summoned, but Nils interrupts the summoning and the Fire Dragon dies caught between dimensions. Before Nergal can kill LEH and recapture N&N, the dying Elbert stabs Nergal with what must be a random small knife badly enough that Nergal must flee and heal his wounds to the point he can control dragons again by gathering fresh quintessence, this is until Hector C29.
  3. Nergal, who must have been keeping an eye on LEH the whole time, comes to take N&N after C29, and despite having the power to take both siblings and LEH, he agrees to Ninian's begging and takes only her. Leaving a "parting gift" of a magical blast that could have killed everyone, but didn't because Athos was there. Athos for some reason doesn't attack Nergal, which could have kept him from dragon summoning. With Ninian in tow and himself in good health, Nergal could have summoned dragons, but he doesn't. Nergal shifts Ninian and lets her run off to Eliwood.
  4. This brings up the Hector C30 opportunity, where Nergal shows up after Ninian is killed. Why? Probably to collect the quintessence of her mentioned before, though he does say he's there for Nils too, since Ninian refused to obey him. Needing Ninian's obedience is odd since Nergal didn't need it back in HC21 when he brainwashed her, and the Fire Dragons he planned to summon certainly wouldn't obey him of their own accord. However, in showing up to mock Eliwood in his misery and get Ninian's essence and Nils, Nergal, just as he is about to kill LEH, is attacked by Athos for 5 displayed damage, in response to which he say: Nergal:
    “The purest fire… Flame breath. Very impressive, Archsage Athos. However… However, fire is no longer my foe! Look! Not even a legendary blade can cause me harm! At long last, I am impervious! Ha ha…ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!”
  5. After this laugh, Nergal teleports away. And then tells Limstella the injury leaves him incapable of controlling dragons now, since he already went through the Black Fang's quintessence reserves. While it seems that Limstella's power augmentations were done shortly before LEH showed up for the final battle, I think this implies the Black Fang Super Replicas made with the BF essences of the originals were done earlier than that, unless they're cheap to make (then why didn't he make more?). Nergal fails to kill the heroes in the final battle, thus losing his final chance to control dragons and the world. His final statement (with the 19xx addition): 
  • Nergal: “Why? Why must I lose? More power… I must be… stronger… I… Why? Why did I… want power? ……Quintessence? [No NoA, it's Aenir!] …Don’t…under…stand… but… Gaa… Not like this… I will not die…like this. With my last breath… tremble…and…despair. Hwah ha ha… Ha…ha ha ha…”

 

From this breakdown, I think Nergal's biggest mistakes are made in Hector C29-30. He could have fulfilled his plans without any issues then, but he messed up and let himself lose too much of the quintessence he so badly needed at that point. At least with C21, he didn't know Nils would show up or that Elbert could survive a quintessence extraction- nobody else does (barring Brendan sans NoF visiting perhaps).

Edit: I just realized there is an undefined period of time when Nergal had Elbert and N&N, yet he didn't open the Gate then. This opportunity was lost when N&N tried to escape Dread Isle. And despite having Elbert, Nergal still tried to start a war in Lycia, which provided the trail of connections which led LEH to Dread Isle. So, had Nergal abandoned his Lycia plans and just offered up Elbert, all would have gone over well for him. This is a flaw.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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On 9/29/2017 at 2:22 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My problems with Sacred Stones' story stem from the sheer amount of stupidity (Lyon's willing to screw around with an artifact that houses the soul of the greatest enemy of humanity, which is stupid enough... But for Eirika to see nothing wrong with this??? Really??? Then you have the fact that Eirika spends part of the game wondering why would Grado suddenly attack Renais... which it's revealed she should've known rather late in the game [as a result, her not knowing either comes off as a huge contrivance or makes her look like a complete idiot, which I think she is, albeit for other reasons, but the fact remains that this reflects poorly on her and the story]. As for Ephraim, he's not nearly as bad off as either of the other two, but he still has his issues; I find it hard to agree with this emotional core being "solid" when 2/3 of said core are idiots, one of whom is also a half-assed attempt at a tragic villain). It doesn't help that I find it hard to care about most of the cast... That I might be able to let slide if the story was any good, but two of the three characters the story revolves around are morons, which ensures it isn't.

TLDR version: it being a result of stupidity of the highest order makes Sacred Stones' plot a joke.

As for FE6, a more interesting villain alone isn't enough to make up for its story being a copypasta.

You have to admit though and face the fact that in the 21st century, stupid characters are going to continue to pop up in the main story. We are going to have more Celica's, Eirika's and Micaiah's. It's just the reality of it because people think stupid characters doing stupid things like submitting themselves to Jedah to save your friend even though he is just purely evil and won't do it, or giving someone a certain object which we all know the evil person is just going to destroy or....I am sorry there are just so many stupid things Micaiah did in Radiant Dawn, which is why I feel Sacred Stones story is better than Radiant Dawn. 

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45 minutes ago, Spectraman said:

I am sorry there are just so many stupid things Micaiah did in Radiant Dawn, which is why I feel Sacred Stones story is better than Radiant Dawn. 

If the failings of Eirika and Micaiah were all there were to these stories, I'd agree. But there's far more wrong with SS's story than just Eirika giving Satan the magic orb.

I'm also a bit more sympathetic to Micaiah, since she's being manipulated for most of the game, and very desperate to lead/liberate Daein. Her series of mistakes are more or less calculated by outside forces, even if Micaiah's actions make it easier for them. Eirika, on the other hand, kind of just gets caught off guard by Fomortiis taunting her in the middle of a conversation and ends up dooming Lyon and escalating the conflict.

Basically, it feels like Micaiah was somewhat being built up as a tragic hero, and it culminates with her being forced to kill Palleas, which we learn was completely pointless and did nothing but serve to emotionally crush her by making her kill an innocent advisor who deeply trusted her. Eirika, meanwhile, feels like she's just to be a normal FE lord, and her mistake seems like it's supposed to be far less of a deal narratively than it actually is.

Edited by Slumber
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29 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'm also a bit more sympathetic to Micaiah, since she's being manipulated for most of the game, and very desperate to lead/liberate Daein. Her series of mistakes are more or less calculated by outside forces, even if Micaiah's actions make it easier for them. Eirika, on the other hand, kind of just gets caught off guard by Fomortiis taunting her in the middle of a conversation and ends up dooming Lyon and escalating the conflict.

You sure? If I remember correctly, L'Arachel states earlier that Lyon's soul has been long gone at that point of the game. Or do you mean another conversation that I can't recall right now?

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9 minutes ago, ping said:

You sure? If I remember correctly, L'Arachel states earlier that Lyon's soul has been long gone at that point of the game. Or do you mean another conversation that I can't recall right now?

Well, I shouldn't say doomed him. He was doomed from the start. But Eirika made it much worse for him.../much better for Fomortiis.

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2 hours ago, Spectraman said:

You have to admit though and face the fact that in the 21st century, stupid characters are going to continue to pop up in the main story. We are going to have more Celica's, Eirika's and Micaiah's. It's just the reality of it because people think stupid characters doing stupid things like submitting themselves to Jedah to save your friend even though he is just purely evil and won't do it, or giving someone a certain object which we all know the evil person is just going to destroy or....I am sorry there are just so many stupid things Micaiah did in Radiant Dawn, which is why I feel Sacred Stones story is better than Radiant Dawn. 

I'm much more sympathetic to Celica and Micaiah than Eirika - let's not forget that Eirika willingly gave Fomortiis the Sacred Stone in spite of what L'arachel said before that chapter. And there's more wrong with SS's story than that. On the other hand, Micaiah gets manipulated for most of the game, and is desperate to save Daein. WRT Celica, I don't know the specifics, but didn't Jedah say at one point that he knew where Mila was? If so, it'd be understandable that she'd trust him, since humanity was still dependent on the gods.

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But there are way more holes in Raidant Dawn than Sacred Stones due to the fact the game braches off of Path of Radiance, and I feel like the developers forgot most of the stuff that happened in Path of radiance and ignored it.

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20 minutes ago, Spectraman said:

But there are way more holes in Raidant Dawn than Sacred Stones due to the fact the game braches off of Path of Radiance, and I feel like the developers forgot most of the stuff that happened in Path of radiance and ignored it.

I admit to being an Tellius devotee, but I don't see how RD ignored most of PoR. Ashnard and Naesala did get backstabbed by the Blood Pact one could argue for sure. Bertram was forgotten. And the events of the Serenes Massacre, while not inexplicable, are a bit crunched for time and realism when the details of PoR and RD are meshed together. There is also being Ike forgiving and liking the BK a little too easily in RD. But otherwise, I don't think RD either intentionally ignored, contradicted or forgot PoR.

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3 hours ago, Spectraman said:

But there are way more holes in Raidant Dawn than Sacred Stones due to the fact the game braches off of Path of Radiance, and I feel like the developers forgot most of the stuff that happened in Path of radiance and ignored it.

I can't agree with this, since I can't think of too much that was ignored or forgotten.

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18 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I can't agree with this, since I can't think of too much that was ignored or forgotten.

I mean for example how Ike forgives the Black Knight, even though in PoR Black Knight told Ike he would tortue Mist after killing him in battle. So Ike just forgets that or is that just because Ike was written differently.

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17 minutes ago, Spectraman said:

I mean for example how Ike forgives the Black Knight, even though in PoR Black Knight told Ike he would tortue Mist after killing him in battle. So Ike just forgets that or is that just because Ike was written differently.

No, the torturing Mist line comes after killing Greil.

Greil scene: “So there’s no way for me to get my answers, is that it? The dead keep their secrets, or so it is said. But you, however…You are not dead yet. I wonder…Will watching your son’s face grow pale, his eyes grow dim as his life bleeds away…And then your daughter… Oh, the horrors I will visit upon her. Will that loosen your tongue, perhaps? I suppose we will simply have to see.”

Ike scene (the closest he comes): "Gawain's daughter, eh? Good. Now I can pull out the entire family tree by the root."

I maintain that Ike felt he got his revenge on the Black Knight when he believed he killed him, and had three years to cool off and forget about the minor things he said, but didn't actually follow through on. I mean, if a man killed your father, are you going to remember he vaguely threatened your sister? Especially when it was right after threatening to kill you, and you were still in your brash years at the time?

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On 9/29/2017 at 3:13 AM, UNLEASH IT said:

The worst thing about FE7's story for me was when Brammimond revived Ninian before the final chapter.  To add insult to injury, Eliwood and co. would've most likely died if it wasn't for that asspull since Ninian immediately killed 2 of the 3 dragons that Nergal summoned while severely weakening the third.

I find it interesting how OP Ninian truly is. Being able to kill 2 dragons instantly despite an individual dragon being significantly more powerful than any lvl 20/20 unit is quite something. Though she is supposed to be a strong dragon and dragons are far stronger than humans in pretty much every single FE game. Though I don't get why FE6 dragons are weak. 

OT: While I did enjoy Blazing Sword's story, quite a lot when I first played it, there are some things that don't sit right with me. For example, Eliwood, Hector, Lyn and co. manage to sneak into Bern, all well and good. The Black Fang somehow find them, makes sense that they'll have better tracking skills than the Bern army. Though what makes zero sense is that your army is fighting battles with the Black Fang and the Bern army doesn't intervene and doesn't find out. What is even funnier is that the protagonists manage to spy on Black Fang's upper echelon despite being within their LoS even though generic Black Fang members could find them. Then there is Leila speaking loudly about her plans. There is also the Ephidel failing to teleport away from the explosion. Ursula having more "urgent" matters to attend to despite Nils being priority number one due to his ability to open the dragon's gate. If she had more important matters to attend to, why were they secret? 

Edited by Icelerate
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On 9/30/2017 at 1:23 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm much more sympathetic to Celica and Micaiah than Eirika

Strongly disagree in the case of Eirika vs Celica. Eirika is manipulated by someone she loves (possessed, of course, but he really does sound believably like Lyon in that scene; his mannerisms match up neatly with the pre-possession Lyon we see via flashbacks), Celica is manipulated by someone who behaves like Snidely Whiplash and tries to murder all of her friends. I'm baffled that anyone would find Celica more reasonable.

I think a lot more people would have behaved like Eirika in that scene than they care to admit. Try to imagine a loved one pleading for help and honestly consider how easily you'd be able to refuse. Even if you think you'd be coldly rational enough to not make the same mistake, you should not have a hard time believing that someone else would, especially someone who has already been characterized as extremely trusting. It's an underrated scene I feel because it accurately shows the flaws of Eirika's kind and trusting nature, something more other FE lords share to varying degrees but are rarely punished for it.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's an underrated scene I feel because it accurately shows the flaws of Eirika's kind and trusting nature, something more other FE lords share to varying degrees but are rarely punished for it.

Adding to this, Ephraim is also giving away the sacred stone in his parallel scene - not willingly, but because he thinks it's a great idea to confront the incredibly powerful demon on his own. I agree with you that this scene is not what's wrong with Eirika and Ephraim: It shows that both of them are flawed in their own way.

Personally, I find chapter 15 (the reunion desert map) far more irksome. Early in the game, Eirika gets fooled by the enemy and Ephraim rushes in to save her, which is fine - Eirika wasn't prepared at all for this situation, so it's not unreasonable that Ephraim (the gifted tactitian) gets to be the last-minute cavalry, even though his portrayal as a gifted tactitian is more than just a bit over the top. But after that, Eirika takes charge herself, rescues a handsome (?) prince on her own, charges in to defend Jehanna... only for Ephraim to rush in to save her again, with only two companions no less if you've taken the Eir route. That, to me, is the most frustration point in FE8's story, not the scene(s) where both twins are shown to be equally flawed in different ways.

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12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Though I don't get why FE6 dragons are weak. 

The "war dragons" as they're called in FE6 aren't trueborn dragons, they're artificial creations made of magic (heavily implied to be the same magic Nergal uses to create morphs). During the Scouring, as more and more natural born dragons died, they resorted to basically perverting their own race to make up for lost numbers, but they are nowhere as strong as the real deal.

 

ANYWAY FE7 DEFENSE SQUAD REPORTING IN WEEEWOOOWEEEWOOO

 

While I'll fully admit Nergal's flakeyness with regards to both his power level as remarked upon in-character and out-of-character can be frustrating, and there really is no explanation for why he tried summoning a dragon without first starting his war in Lycia first in the Elbert arc of the game, there are some things I guess I could try and defend.

With regards to Nergal shrugging off Forblaze only later to get done in by it (and everyone else's weapons) - Despite Athos being all "if he really wanted to even I couldn't have saved you", I just feel like Athos is overselling Nergal here, and Nergal is probably bluffing a bit with the whole "hoho that tickled" bit. More to the point, he's basically totally out of his mind by this point too, and while vaguely defined insanity is not a good explanation for inconsistencies, its better than nothing I guess. He does say he's impervious, which blatantly shown to be not true, so.... I say he's bluffing.

With regards to Ninian - Nergal didn't shapeshift her, she did it on her own accord. Now why he didn't mind control her or whatever like before, I suppose has to do with Ninian becoming stronger a character over her adventure with the lord trio. Where as before she was meek and honestly rather glum about resisting, now she's really made some friends and isn't alone and is in love with Eliwood (regardless if Eliwood loves her back or not, A support or no), and likely only gave herself to Nergal willingly so he'd spare everyone else, but had no intentions of doing his bidding. She likely shifted into her dragon form as a means of fighting back but Nergal thought it ammusing and instead let her run off, knowing if she ran back to Eliwood in this state no one would recognize her and she'd likely be attacked. So basically Ninian tried to be macho and it backfired hard and Nergal being a sociopathic creep rolled with it for the jollies.

With regards to why Nergal accepted Ninian's ultimatum and didn't just blow the lords and Athos away and take Nils with him or why Athos didn't fight back then.... yeah, that's another plothole along the lines of "woops guess I didn't need my war after all I could've just sucked off Elbert the life energy I needed". Maybe that tiny bit of memory locked away in his mind of his love for Aenir and Ninian being his daughter clicked for a brief moment. I'd have to go over the dialogue again to be sure. Either way, hard to justify that part.

With regards to the Black Fang, that I felt was justified in-narrative, or at least in supports. Before Nergal infiltrated them with Sonia, the Fang were a very small group of vigilantes. Sonia opened the flood gates and essentially let their numbers bloat overwhelmingly to the point they were effectively a small militia. Yes, I still say small, because where as other FEs imply your characters are just the named heroes leading unseen armies of randoms (most easily seen in the Tellius games with Ike leading a large crowd of soldiers), FE7 seems to imply what you see is literally what you get: Eliwood didn't take a small army with him, just his bodyguard captain, a single knight aspirant, and some hired muscle. Hector intended on going entirely ALONE, but Oswin tagged along by order of Uther and Matthew and Serra followed suit. Lyn definitely would not take all of Caelin's knights with her - they needed to stay with her father and safeguard the place, so she takes only those she trusts the most: Kent, Sain, Wil, and Florina. So while the Black Fang can seem a bit absurd for a "league of assassins", they've long since stopped being that. Legault's supports lament these sudden changes and influx of attendees and how he misses the "good old days". They number in the low hundreds at best. Large, but not unrealistically so for basically a militia.

 

Either way, I still think FE7 has strong writing! The plot might have holes, but what separates FE7 from other FEs before it is this was really the game that gave character writing the polish it needed. Supports were great, characters got loads of depth in them, heck you even get little backstories you piece together through them (see: Renault). The non support writing is also good, even if the plot gets fucky. The Bern melodrama, the bromance between Hector and Eliwood, its all good shit imo. It's a somewhat bad story written better than it deserves to be.

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No.

It's great! If you dig deep and are very analytical about your stories you can certainly find flaws. The villain not defeating the heroes even when he can easily is not necessarily a flaw - I actually like egotistical, arrogant villains like that. Pride comes before the fall, and all that. 

The way they use the gameplay itself to show major story moments with characters moving around the map and engaging in battle during cutscenes is fantastic. The 3DS games rely too much on CG cutscenes for that, and their regular dialogue scenes tend to be just that - people talking. There's a dynamic nature to the way the story is told in FE7 (and 6 and 8) that is completely lost in the 3DS games, which is a huge shame. It's one of my favorite things about the storytelling style in the GBA games.

Because there's no world map or barracks/base between battles, 7 also just has a really strong forward momentum. It's constantly pushing you forward, and for some, it may not be to their liking, but I love it. It's the one Fire Emblem game where, every time I play it, I find myself playing more chapters in a row than I intended, because it just pulls you along and makes it so easy to say "just one more!" 

Three lords and a player character that doesn't overwhelm the plot also makes for some great relational dynamics. I love when the characters turn towards the screen (you!) and talk to the player directly, it's so cool. It has a really personal touch that I just don't feel with avatar characters that have their own predetermined personalities (but I'd also prefer there were either no avatar character, or an avatar with minimal personality and tons of dialogue choices in future games - also, I don't want an avatar that can romance literally every character in the game, that's just absurd). 

Three lords also allows for three important characters who drive the plot forward. Yes, it's mostly Eliwood's story, but he wouldn't be able to do it without Hector and Lyn and the support they provide to him. 

FE 7 just feels very personal to me. I think that also goes to the smaller stakes - even though the ultimate consequences could be dire (if Nergal does succeed, he'll basically destroy the entire world), the actual story doesn't cover a lot of geographical ground, and involves smaller groups of characters in intimate conflict. It feels character-driven and focused as a result. 

I'm not saying it's objectively the best story (stories can't really be judged objectively, anyway), but it hits all the right notes for me and I love it as a result. Though I also loved Awakening's story, which it seems a lot of people hated, so what do I know? 

My favorite FE stories are 7, Path of Radiance, Awakening, and Sacred Stones. If that gives you any kind of barometer for how my feelings for 7's story might match your own.

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On 10/5/2017 at 2:16 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Strongly disagree in the case of Eirika vs Celica. Eirika is manipulated by someone she loves (possessed, of course, but he really does sound believably like Lyon in that scene; his mannerisms match up neatly with the pre-possession Lyon we see via flashbacks), Celica is manipulated by someone who behaves like Snidely Whiplash and tries to murder all of her friends. I'm baffled that anyone would find Celica more reasonable.

I think a lot more people would have behaved like Eirika in that scene than they care to admit. Try to imagine a loved one pleading for help and honestly consider how easily you'd be able to refuse. Even if you think you'd be coldly rational enough to not make the same mistake, you should not have a hard time believing that someone else would, especially someone who has already been characterized as extremely trusting. It's an underrated scene I feel because it accurately shows the flaws of Eirika's kind and trusting nature, something more other FE lords share to varying degrees but are rarely punished for it.

Be that as it may, the fact that she did it - in spite of what L'arachel told her beforehand, at that - makes it impossible to overlook. So sorry, but I don't find this flimsy explanation acceptable.

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On 10/12/2017 at 10:23 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Be that as it may, the fact that she did it - in spite of what L'arachel told her beforehand, at that - makes it impossible to overlook. So sorry, but I don't find this flimsy explanation acceptable.

I think you have to consider that seeing is believing. Every time Lyon has appeared before Eirika it was as her friend as the Lyon that she knew in better times and he has shown her that he's apparently having a battle within himself to take back control which to Eirika is a sign of he's still in there a like a small light in the darkest abyss. This is why despite Ephraim telling Eirika that it isn't the good hearted Lyon that they knew but someone else entirely she cannot believe it as she has saw there being an apparent struggle where as for Ephraim he saw nothing of the sort otherwise he would be thinking the same just like Eirika, but this is precisely why I think that's a good thing narrative wise which I will touch on later.

While Eirika giving the stone to Lyon was certainly out of emotional attachment to see her friend saved to think that it was merely done just out of that isn't entirely accurate because in a flashback Lyon told Ephraim and Eirika that with the Sacred Stone's power he was able to not only save a girl's life from a fire but managed to get rid of the burns that plagued her body so it was done out of some reasoning and not out of just blind hope. 

 

Where as Celica's case is just a complete gamble in taking Jedah's word from someone who stands by Duma in opposition to how she stands by Mila, who desires chaos and has actively been trying to do harm to her and her companions and to even his own family in the case of Sonya and her sisters with the lone surviving daughter lashing out at him when they meet he feels nothing but disappointment of what a failure he sees her as and despite all this malice/apathy she's so surprised he lied, it's just ludicrous. This is another point to what @Dark Holy Elf has said with Jedah vs Lyon because the latter's intent had been made clear with his diligent research into the stones power he wants to use his findings for the good of the world.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova
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  • 4 weeks later...
On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 7:58 PM, eclipse said:

Welcome to video game forums, where trivialities are magnified beyond belief.  This isn't because of video games, this is because of human nature.

In other words, no, and I don't expect this trend to change for as long as humans are humans.

This is a really great quote.  Complaining about trivial shit is what this forum, and the internet in general, is about.

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  • 8 months later...

I think Im just easily entertained. When I first played through, i didnt really know how to notice plotholes, how the godforsaken support convos worked, or how to play the game. I made it through eliwoods story on easy and got the norma ending.

When i came back to the game later i saw the hector story unlock. So i did research and found out about supports, different endings and that sweet sweet secret i knew existed. I didnt like Nergal until i did a "glimpse in time". That level made me feel sorrow for a crazed man lost to dark magic.

Anyway, i felt the game had some boring moments and levels, but over all, 7/10.

Again, Im... easily entertained.

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