Fixing The Five Star Summon Pool

[Silverly]

13 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm a little confused here. Aren't all characters that you can roll for either 3-4*, 4-5* or 5* exclusive? How is the first part of the list different from the next part?

The first part were those who were already able to be summoned at 4-5 stars, but I didn't think were justifiable to be dropped to anything lower, which would be 3-4 stars.

The second part were characters who are currently 5 star locked but I thought should also be available at 4 stars as well, such as Katarina, Faye, and Amelia.

[thecrimsonflash]

4 minutes ago, SilvertheShadow said:

The first part were those who were already able to be summoned at 4-5 stars, but I didn't think were justifiable to be dropped to anything lower, which would be 3-4 stars.

The second part were characters who are currently 5 star locked but I thought should also be available at 4 stars as well, such as Katarina, Faye, and Amelia.

I don't quite think that katarina would be hurt from a 4* downgrade, but Faye and Amelia both have weapons or skills that I feel are justifiably 5* exclusive, faye's firesweep bow could lead to some op builds depending on the character, because it renders defense irrelevant and even I as a FTP player could not justify Amelia being downgraded to 4-5*, her skill set is just too good with armor march and a slaying axe if we are just going off SI, I've also heard something about her stats being insane in general  but I never could get her so I can't confirm and that's so disappointing because now I am going to have to wait for a focus that will never happen, I bet she will be on an earth boost banner with boey who I got twice at 5* while shooting for amelia btw.

Well that devolved into boey salt real fast, fuck boey I hope he gets removed altogether.

[TheWill]

3 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I don't quite think that katarina would be hurt from a 4* downgrade, but Faye and Amelia both have weapons or skills that I feel are justifiably 5* exclusive, faye's firesweep bow could lead to some op builds depending on the character, because it renders defense irrelevant and even I as a FTP player could not justify Amelia being downgraded to 4-5*, her skill set is just too good with armor march and a slaying axe if we are just going off SI, I've also heard something about her stats being insane in general  but I never could get her so I can't confirm and that's so disappointing because now I am going to have to wait for a focus that will never happen, I bet she will be on an earth boost banner with boey who I got twice at 5* while shooting for amelia btw.

Well that devolved into boey salt real fast, fuck boey I hope he gets removed altogether.

To be honest, there are just too many factors to effectively say whether a character should remain or not. I'm having a hard time seeing any justification for Amelia or Faye remaining five star base, whilst moving the likes of Genny or Luke who have much more meta-relevant skills (although it's also likely Wrathful Staff and Panic Ploy would be locked behind their 5* form). Units who are a part of Hero Fest shouldn't be downgraded personally, but I can see why people would want Genny to be downgraded. 

In @SilvertheShadow's post, they were including characters who hold legendary weapons and/or were a main or important character of their respective games. Katarina's the main representative character for Fire Emblem 12, so there's room to justify her remaining 5*. In-game wise, she's essentially just a Tharja however (although arguably has a very, very slight edge due to being able to run Glacies). To be honest, I was with this line of thinking for awhile, however with how inflated the pool has become, there are some characters who are important or relatively notable to their game that are harming the 5* exclusive pool (eg. Jeorge, Roy, Lilina, Chrom, Camilla).

It should be noted, with Mathilda being moved to 4* despite Cancel Affinity being an incredibly powerful (although niche) skill that effectively removes Brave Lyn's only weakness and a counter to gem weapons, honestly skills like Armour March, Fire Boost, Wind Boost and such don't have much reason to be locked behind 5*. Wrathful Staff I think would be much healthier if it was available at earlier ranks, to allow healers to become more relevant, however I do think it will stay locked behind Genny as a 5* base.

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

To be honest, there are just too many factors to effectively say whether a character should remain or not. I'm having a hard time seeing any justification for Amelia or Faye remaining five star base, whilst moving the likes of Genny or Luke who have much more meta-relevant skills (although it's also likely Wrathful Staff and Panic Ploy would be locked behind their 5* form). Units who are a part of Hero Fest shouldn't be downgraded personally, but I can see why people would want Genny to be downgraded. 

I have no idea how Wrathful Staff could be considered a "more meta-relevant" skill than Firesweep Bow or Armor March. Firesweep Bow is arguably the most difficult weapon to deal with on an Arena defense team and is an amazing offense weapon in its own right, and Armor March is the very definition of the offensive armor team.

The worth of a skill isn't determined by one person, but by the entire player base, that is to say, by the meta.

[TheWill]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I have no idea how Wrathful Staff could be considered a "more meta-relevant" skill than Firesweep Bow or Armor March. Firesweep Bow is arguably the most difficult weapon to deal with on an Arena defense team and is an amazing offense weapon in its own right, and Armor March is the very definition of the offensive armor team.

The worth of a skill isn't determined by one person, but by the entire player base, that is to say, by the meta.

Meta-relevant isn't the term I should have been using, my bad. The reason I highlighted Wrathful Staff being locked behind because healers are incredibly inefficient and Wrathful Staff is the only skill that could propel them forward to be relevant in the meta-game. Not, that it is a meta-relevant skill. I don't agree that it should be locked behind 5* base, but I understand their logic of keeping it behind there. 

As for Armour March, I've yet to see it do much outside of player convenience. As armour teams are incredibly easy to bait and AI has absolutely no idea how to use armour march effectively. You may make the argument that it's a crucial element for players using armour emblem, however I don't use an 'offensive' variation of armour emblem, so can't comment on that topic. Armour teams are strong with or without armour march, whilst Wrathful Staff can make or break a healer.

[bethany81707]

42 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

It should be noted, with Mathilda being moved to 4* despite Cancel Affinity being an incredibly powerful (although niche) skill that effectively removes Brave Lyn's only weakness and a counter to gem weapons, honestly skills like Armour March, Fire Boost, Wind Boost and such don't have much reason to be locked behind 5*. Wrathful Staff I think would be much healthier if it was available at earlier ranks, to allow healers to become more relevant, however I do think it will stay locked behind Genny as a 5* base.

It will. Healer passives are always 5* locked. It's the only reason to promote a healer to 5* besides the stats you're unlikely to use.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Meta-relevant isn't the term I should have been using, my bad. The reason I highlighted Wrathful Staff being locked behind because healers are incredibly inefficient and Wrathful Staff is the only skill that could propel them forward to be relevant in the meta-game. Not, that it is a meta-relevant skill. I don't agree that it should be locked behind 5* base, but I understand their logic of keeping it behind there. 

The problem with Wrathful Staff is not its availability but the fact that staff weapons are weak, staff users don't have access to the stronger offensive skills, and the vast majority of staff users don't have the stat spread to make use of an offensive build.

Making Wrathful Staff more available will not help staff users become more relevant.

 

8 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

As for Armour March, I've yet to see it do much outside of player convenience. As armour teams are incredibly easy to bait and AI has absolutely no idea how to use armour march effectively. You may make the argument that it's a crucial element for players using armour emblem, however I don't use an 'offensive' variation of armour emblem, so can't comment on that topic. Armour teams are strong with or without armour march, whilst Wrathful Staff can make or break a healer.

I take it you don't fight 738+ teams in the Arena very often.

Armor March doesn't affect player-controlled enemy-phase armor teams, but it makes a huge difference for player-phase teams and AI-controlled teams.

[NekoKnight]

I'm of the opinion no that more characters/skills in the 4* pool is going to make the game more interesting. With the exception of some skills that are one of a kind (example, DC and CC, vs RuoarOwl which has blue and green variants in the 4* pool), most skills should be available via characters that can be summoned at 4*. What does it matter to most players that IS "buffed" Killer weapons by adding Slayer weapons, if those weapons are locked to really difficult to summon characters? Wrathful staff could make healers relevent again? Hah! I hope you have orbs for when 5* Genny is on a banner because it's going to take a lot of luck otherwise (and who goes to Colorless hell willingly?). So many content updates and most people won't even get to use all the new skills.

It's not like these characters in the 4* would make the game too easy either. You still need to pull the character (half a year later, I've pulled 1 Cordelia) and spend the feathers to promote them to 5*. Cancel Affinity removes a major threat to strong archers, and I rarely see it EVEN THOUGH Mathilda is available at 4*. It's not going to break the game.

[TheWill]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem with Wrathful Staff is not its availability but the fact that staff weapons are weak, staff users don't have access to the stronger offensive skills, and the vast majority of staff users don't have the stat spread to make use of an offensive build.

Making Wrathful Staff more available will not help staff users become more relevant.

I agree that staff users being weak is the main reason you don't see them, however making Wrathful Staff more available will allow for potential use. Right now, healers are delegated to purely Rehabilitate support in chain challenges or tempest trials. Wrathful Staff wouldn't make healers meta relevant, which is why I said that I used the incorrect term. It does, however, open options for them. I suppose a fear that Wrathful Staff would make healers overbearing due to a mix of utility and damage is the reason they won't make it more accessible, however I'm sure they'll continue to experiment which may open up pathways in the future. 

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Armor March doesn't affect player-controlled enemy-phase armor teams, but it makes a huge difference for player-phase teams and AI-controlled teams.

I see. I haven't had experience using Armour March as I don't have Amelia.  

[SoulWeaver]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Making Wrathful Staff more available will not help staff users become more relevant.

But it WILL help me make my Sakura better for my personal enjoyment…wait. That came out wrong. You guys get what I meant, though.

57 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Wrathful staff could make healers relevent again? Hah! I hope you have orbs for when 5* Genny is on a banner because it's going to take a lot of luck otherwise (and who goes to Colorless hell willingly?).

I go to Colorless hell willingly both because I am aiming for a Genny so I can give my Sakura Wrathful Staff and Close Counter for my own reasons and because I don't snipe as a rule, also for my own reasons.

59 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

So many content updates and most people won't even get to use all the new skills.

And yet they'll probably just ignore us on that if we complain because they know a bunch of us will keep giving them money for another chance, screwing over the rest of us who can't afford to shell out that kind of dough because IS's Japan-Exclusive TCG is already sucking my money away.

[Ice Dragon]

51 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

I agree that staff users being weak is the main reason you don't see them, however making Wrathful Staff more available will allow for potential use. Right now, healers are delegated to purely Rehabilitate support in chain challenges or tempest trials. Wrathful Staff wouldn't make healers meta relevant, which is why I said that I used the incorrect term. It does, however, open options for them. I suppose a fear that Wrathful Staff would make healers overbearing due to a mix of utility and damage is the reason they won't make it more accessible, however I'm sure they'll continue to experiment which may open up pathways in the future. 

I currently have a fully decked out Elise [+Atk, -Def] (Gravity, Recover, Kindled-Fire Balm, Attack +3, Wrathful Staff 3, Hone Cavalry) that I use in all of my Tempest Trials runs, and she still barely ever gets a chance to attack for the purpose of dealing damage. Most of the time she's spamming Recover, and occasionally she needs to use Gravity to stall an enemy unit (usually cavalry), but that's really it. 44/32 cavalry offenses before buffs (48/32 with Assault) is viable, but still simply not all that impressive, especially considering that she is unable to have an offensive special skill and B skill and that this is with the strongest A skill available to her.

There's no risk of staff users becoming too good in this game if Wrathful Staff became more accessible, either in Arena or in PvE content. Staff users become more versatile with Wrathful Staff, but not enough to move them out of their niche as healing and debuff support. It's a good skill, but it's not that good.

[Callisto]

I think an interesting idea would be if they mixed up the 3* and 4* pools for each banner. Or, maybe have a single banner where characters that were normally 5*s, be in the 3-4* pools, kinda like a different kind of Hero Fest? I dunno, just throwing ideas out here.

[XRay]

23 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

(and who goes to Colorless hell willingly?)

I happily go in there too. It is probably the most expensive way to get Feathers, but it is the fastest way to get them. I also have a lot of Death Blow fodder now.

[Prince Endriu]

11 hours ago, Callisto said:

I think an interesting idea would be if they mixed up the 3* and 4* pools for each banner. Or, maybe have a single banner where characters that were normally 5*s, be in the 3-4* pools, kinda like a different kind of Hero Fest? I dunno, just throwing ideas out here.

They should revamp the whole summoning pool. I mean, getting the same 3* units ss just lame. More units should have been added over time. The 5* pool should also be addressed, units like Jacob or Hawkeye shouldnt be there - its just annoying if such a unit spoils your pity rate.

Not every banner should include all units. 

Special hero banners should only include special heroes as 5*, special heroes of past banners should be thrown into the pool.

[Hilda]

On 1.10.2017 at 5:14 AM, Ice Dragon said:

I currently have a fully decked out Elise [+Atk, -Def] (Gravity, Recover, Kindled-Fire Balm, Attack +3, Wrathful Staff 3, Hone Cavalry) that I use in all of my Tempest Trials runs, and she still barely ever gets a chance to attack for the purpose of dealing damage. Most of the time she's spamming Recover, and occasionally she needs to use Gravity to stall an enemy unit (usually cavalry), but that's really it. 44/32 cavalry offenses before buffs (48/32 with Assault) is viable, but still simply not all that impressive, especially considering that she is unable to have an offensive special skill and B skill and that this is with the strongest A skill available to her.

There's no risk of staff users becoming too good in this game if Wrathful Staff became more accessible, either in Arena or in PvE content. Staff users become more versatile with Wrathful Staff, but not enough to move them out of their niche as healing and debuff support. It's a good skill, but it's not that good.

Imho Wrathfull Staff shouldnt even have been a thing. They should have simply just removed the Healer attack penalty period. Healers allready suffer from not haveing any offensiv special or a way/assist to Reposition their Teammates.

A Wrathfull Staff 3 Healer offers little to nothing to a Team in Arena, because if its not a Cavalry Staff user it lacks seriously the punching power to kill anything on its first round. The Meta wouldnt even change if you hand out Gennys like 3Star gems to everyone. So what Ice Dragon said is quite true.

 

Imho the easiest fix to the pool is an a summoning option you can toggle off and on for various colors:

Colorless option: Stave or ranged melee or both
Red/Blue/Gree: ranged or close combat or both (obviously for each color a seperate option)

There you can now adjust your summoning RNG to a degree and elminate 50% of the cast that you dont want to shoot for.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Hilda

[Vince777]

Well that.... would make it a lot easier to get Tharja (1/5) from the 4* ranged-exclusive pool rather than trying to get her amongst dozens of sword units by just pulling red...

Took me 8 months to get her. 

Also, I don't really want Reinhardt to be really easily accessible. He would be a 25% pull in the blue ranged pool. ._.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Vince777

[Kruggov]

44 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Also, I don't really want Reinhardt to be really easily accessible. He would be a 25% pull in the blue ranged pool. ._.

Well Rein is pretty bad at 4-star since he has no Dire Thunder while still being only about 1 point of speed faster than Sophia and having meh defenses, unlike Sophia. Grinding him from that would not be easy.

IMO Hinoka at least should go to 5-4, as flier teams NEED her Hone Fliers badly, and every other Hone/Fortify type is availible at 4 star (except Fortify Dragons).

[Vince777]

3 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Well Rein is pretty bad at 4-star since he has no Dire Thunder while still being only about 1 point of speed faster than Sophia and having meh defenses, unlike Sophia. Grinding him from that would not be easy.

IMO Hinoka at least should go to 5-4, as flier teams NEED her Hone Fliers badly, and every other Hone/Fortify type is availible at 4 star (except Fortify Dragons).

Most 5* Reinhardt were once 4* (like my own and including some heavily merged ones). This is how you get a good nature for him.

I don't want people to have a ridiculously easy access to the character.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Vince777

[XRay]

24 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Most 5* Reinhardt were once 4* (like my own and including some heavily merged ones). This is how you get a good nature for him.

I don't want people to have a ridiculously easy access to the character.

I think it is fine to make Reinhardt easily accessible. It helps free and new players stand a better chance of completing difficult content and get more defense wins.