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Who is worse: Meg or Fiona?


Who is worse: Meg or Fiona?  

49 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is worse?



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2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

20/20/10 (to pick an arbitrary number for endgame) sees Meg ahead by around 2 points in both. Fiona only passes Meg in luck long after Meg has rammed her luck cap, and never passes her in skill, BExp shenanigans aside. But it's obviously not a big deal either way

               

I mean, this is RD.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If you don't see how she's dramatically better in Part 1 and Part 3, you're not trying very hard.

Meg, Level... let's say 11. 2 levels a map, a decent clip but hardly favouritism:

26 HP, 13 Str, 10 Skl, 13 Spd, 14 Luck, 13 Def, 9 Res

Fiona, base:

25 HP, 8 Str, 8 Skl, 10 Spd, 7 Luck, 8 Def, 6 Res

That's one hell of a stomping. And the crazy thing? Meg is only two levels higher! So that gap ain't closing any time soon. In fact, it gets worse, because Fiona goes and promptly misses 1-8 so Meg probably pads a level lead if anything.

You can say "being an armour sucks", but Fiona only has 1 more move than Meg in her first two maps, and then is severely restricted in her third. She has Canto which is nice. Meg, meanwhile, has access to better weapons (Killer in part 1, Brave in part 3). This is a massive gap and lasts right through Part 3. Being sword-locked isn't that big a deal in this game since swords actually get 1-2 range (and thanks to large leads in Str/Skl/Luck, Meg's Wind Edge is both more accurate and more damaging than Fiona's Javelin); being lance-locked is actually worse in the DB maps.

No, it's because by my standards, Meg being "dramatically better" is a dramatic overstatement. Also, Meg being level 11 by the time Fiona joins... when two of the chapters she has on Fiona are either timed or require rushing... yeah, no way in the seven hells am I buying that without blatant favoritism. Also, the Killing Edge is a pretty lackluster weapon, and requires a B rank to boot.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

No, it's because by my standards, Meg being "dramatically better" is a dramatic overstatement. Also, Meg being level 11 by the time Fiona joins... when two of the chapters she has on Fiona are either timed or require rushing... yeah, no way in the seven hells am I buying that without blatant favoritism. Also, the Killing Edge is a pretty lackluster weapon, and requires a B rank to boot.

Chances are you're giving Meg about 4-5 levels on 1-4 alone just by chokepoint-ing a few Laguz (she gains about ~30 EXP from just hitting an enemy). It's pretty much the perfect map to train her on. Level 11-12 by 1-7 is about right.

If we're comfortable giving Fiona like 5-7 levels per map she's on just so she can not completely suck in part 3, then I think it's entirely realistic for Meg to gain a lot of levels on a map that's extremely suited for it.

I mean, if Meg actually joined in 1-5 instead then I'd probably consider Fiona better (since Meg would struggle to do much of anything and therefore wouldn't grow), that's how much of a saving grace 1-4 is for Meg. Put it this way, going out of your way to baby Fiona in 1-7 or 1-E is mandatory for her to be used. Therefore, the same treatment for Meg in 1-4 makes complete sense based on the map design and enemies you're fighting (making the struggle of training Meg far less of a pain than Fiona).

"Blatant favouritism" applies far more to Fiona in this case since training Meg in certain maps like 1-4 is not that difficult compared to whatever you're doing with Fiona on 1-7 or 1-E. And it's already been pointed out that Fiona's still bad on 3-6 when she's 20/1, while Meg can actually be worked with.

Edited by DLuna
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No, it's because by my standards, Meg being "dramatically better" is a dramatic overstatement.

So by your standards, a lead of 5 str, 3 spd, 5 def, 3 res, and 7 luck isn't dramatic? We can use some other word if you prefer, but the point is it makes for a far superior performance, and this gap is far larger than anything Fiona can ever hope to achieve in the other direction later in the game.

Killer is B rank, but Meg starts with a surprisingly-not-too-bad C, and needs just 25 swings with iron/wind to reach B. She'll likely have this before Fiona even joins; if not, soon after. As you say, the weapon's not that amazing, but the option is better than not having it.

Also, we haven't talked about it much, but the 7 luck gap should probably merit extra note. Fiona takes single-digit crit from many enemies in three of her first four maps (the exception is the one where she can't enter the water). Given how much you hate low-crit-avo units, I'm surprised that you haven't even mentioned this.

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If one is going to spend time levelling either of these up, Fiona is probably more worth your time and the reasoning is she's mounted Meg is not. So Fiona will have better movement, not to mention the canto skill, meaning she can perform hit and run tactics if necessary. Now I have gotten both of these to their 3rd tier classes before so they do turn out good if one is willing to put in the effort but if it was a choice between the two I would pick Fiona. At the end of the day I think of these as a variant on the Est archetype, bad bases, and good growths but they join at a point where it's difficult to use them. So only use them if you want to, need a tank you have Aran who typically does Meg's job better, need mobility you already have Jill who is much easier to level.

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14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

 

So by your standards, a lead of 5 str, 3 spd, 5 def, 3 res, and 7 luck isn't dramatic? We can use some other word if you prefer, but the point is it makes for a far superior performance, and this gap is far larger than anything Fiona can ever hope to achieve in the other direction later in the game.

Killer is B rank, but Meg starts with a surprisingly-not-too-bad C, and needs just 25 swings with iron/wind to reach B. She'll likely have this before Fiona even joins; if not, soon after. As you say, the weapon's not that amazing, but the option is better than not having it.

Also, we haven't talked about it much, but the 7 luck gap should probably merit extra note. Fiona takes single-digit crit from many enemies in three of her first four maps (the exception is the one where she can't enter the water). Given how much you hate low-crit-avo units, I'm surprised that you haven't even mentioned this.

You mean, using the blatantly inflated level that I wouldn't see Meg getting to by that point unless you subjected her to the same treatment that would be necessary with Fiona?

Well, this IS Radiant Dawn, where enemy luck tends to be sky high, that we're talking about...

I just fired up RD, and got to Fiona's join chapter. The only enemies that would have crit on her that I saw were the myrmidons that I'd have her avoid like the plague anyhow. Facing crit from three enemies that a unit would have no business facing is nothing like Arthur, or Fates Berserkers in general, who face crit chances from everything under the sun.

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I voted Fiona simply because of the fact that Meg can wall any Laguz that can't kill her in the first chapter you can use her, and the fact that I don't recall Fiona having anything equivalent to her.

Edited by Just call me AL
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2 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

I voted Fiona simply because of the fact that she can wall any Laguz that can't kill her in the first chapter you can use her, and the fact that I don't recall Fiona having anything equivalent to her.

Erm, I hope you meant "Meg" when you used "she"...

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I gave them the same score back in the democratic tier list, but I think it would be fair to say that Meg is less horrible (because her start is merely bad, not atrocious), while Fiona is more rewarding from an Est-y point of view (i.e. not because she would be helpful, but because she turns into a good unit very late in the game).

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Funnily Fiona with earth support in Tibarn's party is almost invisible.
I did it in a FE10 draft (supported with Volug) and he was AMAZING at the end.
Too bad it's only like 1/4 of the game where she can start to shine... 


Seriously I wished Fiona's and Meg's joining time would be swapped. A good mounted unit is way more needed than a worse Edward with lower movement.

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19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You mean, using the blatantly inflated level that I wouldn't see Meg getting to by that point unless you subjected her to the same treatment that would be necessary with Fiona?

DLuna already explained why Level 11 is reasonable enough; you underestimate just how high the Exp granted by laguz is. Regardless, you can whine about it and we can drop her a level or two, it makes little difference. The stat gaps are still huge and are going to get bigger as soon as Meg participates in 1-8 and Fiona does not.

And it must be emphasised, that rate of gaining levels for Meg is significantly less than what Fiona needs to be usable.

I just fired up RD, and got to Fiona's join chapter. The only enemies that would have crit on her that I saw were the myrmidons that I'd have her avoid like the plague anyhow.

The higher-level archers have crit on her too (or all of them on HM, but see disclaimer at the end of the paragraph), and then in 1-E the thunder mages do and in 3-12 the snipers and halberdiers do. Regardless, I agree, Fiona should avoid myrmidons like the plague. Or, to restate it in starker terms, Fiona needs to avoid the enemies she should naturally be better against due to the weapon triangle. (Granted, weapon triangle isn't a thing on Hard Mode, but I'd rather not assume HM when discussing Fiona for obvious reasons.)

Fates characters have pairup and Bronze to improve their crit evade. (Arthur with bronze has pretty similar crit avoid to Fiona, and has better power than her with iron.) RD characters only have bond supports, and Fiona doesn't get those.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

DLuna already explained why Level 11 is reasonable enough; you underestimate just how high the Exp granted by laguz is. Regardless, you can whine about it and we can drop her a level or two, it makes little difference. The stat gaps are still huge and are going to get bigger as soon as Meg participates in 1-8 and Fiona does not.

And it must be emphasised, that rate of gaining levels for Meg is significantly less than what Fiona needs to be usable.

 

 

The higher-level archers have crit on her too (or all of them on HM, but see disclaimer at the end of the paragraph), and then in 1-E the thunder mages do and in 3-12 the snipers and halberdiers do. Regardless, I agree, Fiona should avoid myrmidons like the plague. Or, to restate it in starker terms, Fiona needs to avoid the enemies she should naturally be better against due to the weapon triangle. (Granted, weapon triangle isn't a thing on Hard Mode, but I'd rather not assume HM when discussing Fiona for obvious reasons.)

Fates characters have pairup and Bronze to improve their crit evade. (Arthur with bronze has pretty similar crit avoid to Fiona, and has better power than her with iron.) RD characters only have bond supports, and Fiona doesn't get those.

Except other than hitting laguz in 1-4, it's not like Meg's leveling up THAT fast... Also, she practically can't contribute in at least one of her chapters (1-6-2; she'd just get annihilated by the mounted units that come in from the left, and she can't help save the fleeing Marado Knights either). Otherwise, fair enough.

You gotta admit, most of those would have enough crit to threaten a good deal of units. Also, the thunder mages near Jarod are immobile, and the only other ones, IIRC, are reinforcements that start behind you, and would likely try to get to you by going up the ledges. And I wouldn't say Meg has it much better against the enemies she's supposed to be advantaged against, since Fighters can still put the hurt on her anyway.

I suppose, but pair up comes with the downside of using up two characters' turns at once, and unlike in Awakening, pair up isn't so powerful that this cost isn't noticeable, and bronze weapons mean losing damage output unless you forge.

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45 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except other than hitting laguz in 1-4, it's not like Meg's leveling up THAT fast... Also, she practically can't contribute in at least one of her chapters (1-6-2; she'd just get annihilated by the mounted units that come in from the left, and she can't help save the fleeing Marado Knights either). Otherwise, fair enough.

You gotta admit, most of those would have enough crit to threaten a good deal of units. Also, the thunder mages near Jarod are immobile, and the only other ones, IIRC, are reinforcements that start behind you, and would likely try to get to you by going up the ledges. And I wouldn't say Meg has it much better against the enemies she's supposed to be advantaged against, since Fighters can still put the hurt on her anyway.

I suppose, but pair up comes with the downside of using up two characters' turns at once, and unlike in Awakening, pair up isn't so powerful that this cost isn't noticeable, and bronze weapons mean losing damage output unless you forge.

I have, on multiple playthroughs (including one on HM), used Meg against those cavaliers. They have relatively low AS and Atk for RD eneies so it typically takes like ~4 hits for them to kill Meg, and good positioning can ensure that won't happen. I've levelled Edward there too, and Edward is by that point strictly less durable against cavaliers than Meg is. It's not that hard.

Fiona can't safely attack thunder mages even standing at the top of a ledge; Jarod's authority reduces their hit penalty to -35, which leaves their hit against Fiona's poor avoid far too high to be remotely safe.

Meg has it way better against fighters than Fiona has it against myrms. Fiona is doubled and eats crit from myrms, not remotely acceptable. Meg is not doubled, and is at worst low-2HKOed and then only by steel axes (and those OHKO or 2HKO every other unpromoted unit except Nolan, so this is not a unique failing of Meg). With a single Dracoshield or Seraph Robe, that becomes a 3HKO at worst.

Fates Bronze comes with a power hit, but the characters you decry are also characters able to afford that hit, so it's often a trade worth making. It also helps their hit! Fates Bronze weapons are great honestly. I doubt axe infantry will ever be your favourite units but bronze honestly makes the Fates ones (even Arthur) more usable than you often give them credit for, and I say this as someone who shares your disdain for accepting enemy crit rates.

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 Fiona is awful and has base stats worse than Meg, a unit that not only joins earlier, but is lower in level. Fiona is just straight up garbage. You will give tons of BEXP to Fiona just to make her passable. Meg is at least just "a bad unit." Fiona I have to question what in the 7 layers of hell they were thinking when they created a unit that weak. 

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I have, on multiple playthroughs (including one on HM), used Meg against those cavaliers. They have relatively low AS and Atk for RD eneies so it typically takes like ~4 hits for them to kill Meg, and good positioning can ensure that won't happen. I've levelled Edward there too, and Edward is by that point strictly less durable against cavaliers than Meg is. It's not that hard.

Fiona can't safely attack thunder mages even standing at the top of a ledge; Jarod's authority reduces their hit penalty to -35, which leaves their hit against Fiona's poor avoid far too high to be remotely safe.

Meg has it way better against fighters than Fiona has it against myrms. Fiona is doubled and eats crit from myrms, not remotely acceptable. Meg is not doubled, and is at worst low-2HKOed and then only by steel axes (and those OHKO or 2HKO every other unpromoted unit except Nolan, so this is not a unique failing of Meg). With a single Dracoshield or Seraph Robe, that becomes a 3HKO at worst.

Fates Bronze comes with a power hit, but the characters you decry are also characters able to afford that hit, so it's often a trade worth making. It also helps their hit! Fates Bronze weapons are great honestly. I doubt axe infantry will ever be your favourite units but bronze honestly makes the Fates ones (even Arthur) more usable than you often give them credit for, and I say this as someone who shares your disdain for accepting enemy crit rates.

When I was trying to get to 1-7 to test the validity of one of your other statements, I couldn't have Meg do anything whatsoever other than a few shoves in 1-6-2 (it didn't help that she hadn't gained a single point in Defence). And with them having around 20 atk each... yeah. (For the record, my go-to strat involves Aran and unarmed Tauroneo blocking the left bridge)

Fair enough, I suppose. 

I'll admit that it's not a unique failing of Meg's, but considering her class, I still find it jarring. And it just screams wasted potential since she could've been a tank in a group that needed one, but instead she plays - and grows - more like a fragile speedster type of unit. Also, for what it's worth, at least Fiona's growth spread is set up in such a way that BExp levels can help her defense - this isn't so for Meg, whose best growths happen to be in HP, Luck, and Speed, which doesn't really help her much. (I'll grant, though, there are better uses for BEXP)

Be that as it may, it's really quite sad if someone needs to have a bronze glued to their hands to not be a liability, from where I'm standing. And as far as axe infantry go, outside of the few that managed to earn my respect, one of whom happens to be in the game we're talking about here, I've pretty much given up on Intsys ever making axe infantry that don't suck after they struck out with Arthur, Charlotte and Rinkah.

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