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Why are individual characters so important?


The DanMan
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17 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

I really don't understand why people keep saying Musou Collabs are a "Celebration" of something. LoZ is without a doubt my favorite franchise and something that I hold very dear especially The Wind Waker. If I combined the time spent with HW base and Legends based there is no game that I can think of in recent memory that I have played as much as HW. HW is not a celebration of Zelda. It doesn't really celebrate anything outside of The Original, OoT, TP, and SS (No base Baton doesn't count).

Hyrule grew into something that can be called a Celebration after years of support but base was not. HW was a Dynasty Warriors take on the LoZ much how FEW is a Musou take on FE. 

It is completely reasonable to not want the game if your favorite character isn't but it really isn't reasonable to expect FE to be different just because it is FE. The have done 3 VG collabs and they all follow the same basically initials design. 

Those games u named are the core of Loz tho, covering those games encompasses a large majority of the series.

Edited by Kagetura
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15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

but I would have liked more SD and better villain choices- I think that is reasonable

I definitely would've like that as well, I even dreamt of having all Archanean Regalia on Warriors, but the final product screams time was running out, so they had to throw what they had. The July interview linked by Sire somewhere had a part where devs stated the thought process at workplace isn't systematic, which leads me to believe that features, mechanics, characters and whatnot just popped up from the devs mind and they worked on it (not like production was disordered and not planned, though). They even said they made the game as fans themeselves.

 

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You're right that people are being a bit too toxic on this game. By the time things chill and everyone comes to accept it for better or worse, this board might be as dead as TMS's is.

It will get a sequel with Jugdral, Elibe and Tellius characters. By that time, fans will complain about Magvel being the black sheep of the series and Ephraim fans will rage more. I know I'm terrible

14 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Our gameplan has too many swords so let's give our OCs swords and pick three focus games that also have sword wielding protagonists. That isn't logically sound.

Would've preferred them with different weapons, agreed, but among the interviews I can smell the "lords have to have swords" along the lines. Hence why I think they built a stereotype as such. Or IS/Nintendo forced them to make them sword users. At least Sharena has a lance.

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Imagine if the had a Star Trek Warriors game and they only featured characters from Next Gen, Enterprise, and Discovery.  Fans of TOS would be rightfully questioning why two of the biggest names in Trek, Kirk and Spock were not in it.

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I'll bring up my old Smash Bros argument

"would you have any intrest in the game if it didn't have the characters it has"

my thoughts are that characters are what get you intrested in something. like Smash Bros.

Like if you LOVE Shovel Knight you would probably take attention everytime he shows up in a game

Member the hype when they announced MegaMan for Smash at E3 2013

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13 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

Those games u named are the cord of Loz tho, covering those games encompasses a large majority of the series.

Your telling me the 4 out 16 games at the time of HW base release is a "Large Majority". It isn't. Even if you remove the first 2 game s due to lack of characters from LttP on there characters and Bosses that can be brought in to represent those games. All HW did was represent the 3D era and even then it left out 2 games which are huge fan favorites. WW wasn't added till the first expansion and the 2D era wasn't character represented until the second season of DLC. 

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One of Collab Musou games important aspects is the character roster.

Its like Marvel VS Capcom or Smash series- you want your favorite characters to be in it and play as them.

Gameplay wise, it will still generally be the same cause its a Musou game.

Also the name Fire Emblem brands the entire series, not just 3 games.

It isn't like Hyrule Warriors where there is always a Link, Zelda, and Ganon in every game.

Most FEs share a different cast of individual characters.

 

Edited by Cygames
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9 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

Your telling me the 4 out 16 games at the time of HW base release is a "Large Majority". It isn't. Even if you remove the first 2 game s due to lack of characters from LttP on there characters and Bosses that can be brought in to represent those games. All HW did was represent the 3D era and even then it left out 2 games which are huge fan favorites. WW wasn't added till the first expansion and the 2D era wasn't character represented until the second season of DLC. 

Your excluding the dlc as if it wasn't apart of the package all together as a whole the game does a very good job of representing the series, unlike this game where even if you factor in the dlc your left with just those 3. Most of LoZ' s characters are reoccurring and thematic and even characters who had no reason being playable were reasonably included at no one's expense.

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5 minutes ago, Cygames said:

Gameplay wise, it will still generally be the same cause its a Musou game.

Have you actually played the different subwarriors series? Because I can tell you there are quite a number of differences, you're coming off as a very inexperienced or uninformed person. 

Edited by Jedi
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Have you actually played the different subwarriors series? Because I can tell you there are quite a number of differences, you're coming off as a very inexperienced or uninformed person. 

Granted I dont play as much, I've only played a few.

That was not my intent and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

However, it will still have the same battle plan of one vs many.

Though yes you are right, compared to someone people who played the main flagships.

 

 

 

Edited by Cygames
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2 minutes ago, Cygames said:

Granted I dont play as much, I've only played a few.

That was not my intent and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

However, it will still have the same battle plan of one vs many.

Though yes you are right, compared to someone people who played the main flagships.

Sorry for the call out, its just something that particularly bugs me when someone says all of them are the same game with a different coat of paint is all, it kind of defeats the value of trying to discuss the various differences. 

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Just now, Jedi said:

Sorry for the call out, its just something that particularly bugs me when someone says all of them are the same game with a different coat of paint is all, it kind of defeats the value of trying to discuss the various differences. 

I  mean its understandable if you're a fan of the genre. Being able to discuss and prove why things are different, etc. So you're cool.

Idm them but I wouldn't call myself an expert. I'll be careful in the future of my wording.

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45 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

It's worth something to note that most FE games actually do have different mechanics in their individual series, I may love PoR and dislike gaiden or fates mechanics at it's core it's only a turn base Rpg, what I love about FE personally is the narrative it normally had and character presence and difficulty in gameplay. If I wanted to play a game with generic red green blue units it wouldn't be that compelling. And I have very little issue with warriors games just telling me spend 60 dollars for a skin of a warriors game dressed with a series I'm familiar with isn't too new to me.

Which is why we have all these elements in in the first place, because the series love to experiment with different stuff, but even the core mechanics in all Fire Emblems are all mostly in. (Except for possibly random stat growth, but let's be honest; Who is going to complain about that?) There's also mechanics that weren't core mechanics when they debuted, but became recurring enough to become core mechanics (like the Weapon Triangle, having a skill system, and the idea of gaining experience fighting with worse weapons to be able to wield better weapons). But every Fire Emblem mechanic that made it into Fire Emblem Warriors were picked for one thing: To enhance and emphasize the strategy elements of the game; and strategy is the thing that makes Fire Emblem Fire Emblem in the first place. So I can't with good conscience call it a skin when everything I've seen of it implies otherwise.

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17 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

Your excluding the dlc as if it wasn't apart of the package all together as a whole the game does a very good job of representing the series, unlike this game where even if you factor in the dlc your left with just those 3. Most of LoZ' s characters are reoccurring and thematic and even characters who had no reason being playable were reasonably included at no one's expense.

I didn't count DLC because we can't compare HW  with years of support to a game that is even out everywhere yet. Yea some characters reoccurre but you know what but with 1 exception all the reoccurring characters are in base which is knee slapping Grand Total of 4. But what about Din and Nayru or their respective villains, or Vaati, maybe Agahnim, Linebeck, TETRA FOR CHRIST SAKE. Yes the Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many characters as FE but they have more than enough characters for every game to be represented or at least every era of Zelda. 

Edit actually 4 reoccurring Characters because Sheik only appeared once in Zelda. 

Edited by Fireball260
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8 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

I didn't count DLC because we can't compare HW  with years of support to a game that is even out everywhere yet. Yea some characters reoccurre but you know what but with 1 exception all the reoccurring characters are in base which is knee slapping Grand Total of 4. But what about Din and Nayru or their respective villains, or Vaati, maybe Agahnim, Linebeck, TETRA FOR CHRIST SAKE. Yes the Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many characters as FE but they have more than enough characters for every game to be represented or at least every era of Zelda. 

Edit actually 4 reoccurring Characters because Sheik only appeared once in Zelda. 

Two things:

1. What does Hyrule Warriors have to do with this?
2. Your text color changes mid-sentence.  Probably not noticeable outside of Night Forest, but guess which mod had to be a hipster and use that theme?

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Two things:

1. What does Hyrule Warriors have to do with this?
2. Your text color changes mid-sentence.  Probably not noticeable outside of Night Forest, but guess which mod had to be a hipster and use that theme?

1. I brought up HW to say that Musou Collabs aren't Celebrations of their source material since Hyrule Warriors also ignored a large part of Zelda's legacy as well several Fan Favorite games. 

2. Wait really? I'm on mobile so I can't tell I kinda want to see it.

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37 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

I didn't count DLC because we can't compare HW  with years of support to a game that is even out everywhere yet. Yea some characters reoccurre but you know what but with 1 exception all the reoccurring characters are in base which is knee slapping Grand Total of 5. But what about Din and Nayru or their respective villains, or Vaati, maybe Agahnim, Linebeck, TETRA FOR CHRIST SAKE. Yes the Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many characters as FE but they have more than enough characters for every game to be represented or at least every era of Zelda. 

I mean sure you have a point in that it didn't represent everything but what does that say about this game doing 1/3rd the job in diversity.

Edited by Kagetura
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5 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

1. I brought up HW to say that Musou Collabs aren't Celebrations of their source material since Hyrule Warriors also ignored a large part of Zelda's legacy as well several Fan Favorite games. 

2. Wait really? I'm on mobile so I can't tell I kinda want to see it.

For the second one. . .

kXfhFPR.png

For everyone else that likes to copy/paste text, this is what it looks like on Night Forest.  If possible, clear formatting first~!

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As someone who's not getting this game, well... to be honest, the big reason is the lack of Switch. I have a N3DS for Xenoblade and better perfomance Pokemon Sun and Hyrule Warriors Legends, though.

However, while I did enjoy HWL, I'm not likely to spring for N3DS FEW because I don't recognise any of the characters, don't have an attachment to them. Awakening and Fates have nothing going for them, and Shadow Dragon has a barely-started game- and even then, I hear going further in is only going to get me to like Caeda's numbers and not her face. Lyn and Celica are nice and familiar, but with the bulk of the cast being games that might as well be from another franchise, trying to sell me on this game is like trying to sell me on something like Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing featuring Banjo & Kazooie. Sure, it's a racing game, and I like those to some degree, but why would I play this one?

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

For the second one. . .

kXfhFPR.png

For everyone else that likes to copy/paste text, this is what it looks like on Night Forest.  If possible, clear formatting first~!

Sorry I can't spell Agahnims to save my life I didn't know it would have that effect. 

 

8 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

I mean sure you have a point in that it didn't represent everything but what does that say about this game doing 1/3rs the job in diversity.

Because the way the developers chose to design the Collabs is important. They aren't designed as a celebration they are designed as an adaptation in a way. For the anime collabs are easier but the VG adaptations are much harder. They chose HW representation in very similar ways you have OoT which which was basically the originator when it comes to 3D Zelda which was the focus, TP which going off sales was the most popular, and SS the most recent game during the development of HW. If they couldn't well represent a sizable part Zelda's history why would FE be any different give the size of the characters in each game. 

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19 minutes ago, Fireball260 said:

Sorry I can't spell Agahnims to save my life I didn't know it would have that effect. 

 

Because the way the developers chose to design the Collabs is important. They aren't designed as a celebration they are designed as an adaptation in a way. For the anime collabs are easier but the VG adaptations are much harder. They chose HW representation in very similar ways you have OoT which which was basically the originator when it comes to 3D Zelda which was the focus, TP which going off sales was the most popular, and SS the most recent game during the development of HW. If they couldn't well represent a sizable part Zelda's history why would FE be any different give the size of the characters in each game. 

The problem was trying that formula in the first place, it works for HW because of the small cast but it's because the cast was so much smaller why it worked, you chose 3 out of 14 games that's alot of displeased fans your asking to simpathize when they have no reason to. The way I see it, when their ready to sell to the fans who are in are looking for older games, my wallet will be out, until then it's not fair to call the detractor's their demographic because like they said maybe in a sequel.

I'm not getting this game as charity I'm buying it as a interested customer from a potential merchant, if they can't sell me their product that's failure on their end when they had all the information they needed to suite my needs.

Edited by Kagetura
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Well it's been years since I wanted it to happen as Dynasty Warriors is one of my favorite series as well as Fire Emblem so.. But yeah, I'd like some path of radiance or radiant dawn in it, but it will happen but latter. (at least, I hope) 

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19 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

The problem was trying that formula in the first place, it works for HW because of the small cast but it's because the cast was so much smaller why it worked, you chose 3 out of 14 games that's alot of displeased fans your asking to simpathize when they have no reason to. The way I see it, when their ready to sell to the fans who are in are looking for older games, my wallet will be out, until then it's not fair to call the detractor's their demographic because like they said maybe in a sequel.

I'm not getting this game as charity I'm buying it as a interest customer from a potential merchant if they can't sell me their product that's failure on their end when they had all the information they needed to suite my needs.

There is more to representation than just characters, map, music as well as mechanics and nods. There is a lot that goes into adapting someone else property and FE is large so how can you property adapt all of it or most of it one go while having everything be faithful. 

The reason Hyrule Warriors is (wrongly) remembered as a celebration of Zelda is because the developers took their time and well represent the aspects of Zelda that were represented by the end of its support. Hyrule Warriors didn't pick everything just to fill out a check list they adapted Zelda and kept supporting it until it grew to what it became. While it is completely fair to not like the roster, but there is more than goes into this than just characters. 

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1 minute ago, Fireball260 said:

There is more to representation than just characters, map, music as well as mechanics and nods. There is a lot that goes into adapting someone else property and FE is large so how can you property adapt all of it or most of it one go while having everything be faithful. 

The reason Hyrule Warriors is (wrongly) remembered as a celebration of Zelda is because the developers took their time and well represent the aspects of Zelda that were represented by the end of its support. Hyrule Warriors didn't pick everything just to fill out a check list they adapted Zelda and kept supporting it until it grew to what it became. While it is completely fair to not like the roster, but there is more than goes into this than just characters. 

Problem is we alrdy know what this game looks like in the next 3 dlc packs and they alrdy let us know older games aren't in this games future so it doesn't change a thing mentioning the time difference. If I have a problem with it being all awakening fates now with a few bones thrown to SD I'll still have a problem with it then.

 

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Honestly? I'm getting it because it looks great, but also because it's Fire Emblem.

I just think that people are overreacting about the roster. I understandnyou're mad because, say, Ike didn't get in, and I understand that, I'd be fuming if they left Marth out, but I'd still get it. Because it's Fire Emblem.

People just get so wound up nowadays...it's like when Lyn was revealed and people were like "the game is saved! I'll buy this game now!" I never wanted to headdesk so much in my life.

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1 minute ago, Lau said:

Honestly? I'm getting it because it looks great, but also because it's Fire Emblem.

I just think that people are overreacting about the roster. I understandnyou're mad because, say, Ike didn't get in, and I understand that, I'd be fuming if they left Marth out, but I'd still get it. Because it's Fire Emblem.

People just get so wound up nowadays...it's like when Lyn was revealed and people were like "the game is saved! I'll buy this game now!" I never wanted to headdesk so much in my life.

Yes, exactly. It's just so dumb how people think the roster determines everything. Even if it had all the characters we wanted, what good would it do if it ended up playing like crap? I'm not such a glutton. I'd rather have a game that plays great with a not-as-pleasing roster than a game that plays terribly with a very pleasing roster. The former's exactly what we got.

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