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Mandokarla

Fates: Best in Class (per game)

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So having beaten Conquest Hard (too scared right now to try Conquest Lunatic) and just about finished with Revelations Hard, I was wondering what you guys think of the various classes/archetypes and which characters are "best in class". As in, which of the three base ninjas is the best, which of the casters (mages and diviners) is the best, and so on. I am thinking purely in their base classes and promotions, and for the story mode. So I guess the rules for this discussion are as follows:

- No DLC classes or characters. 

- No Corrin.

- No consideration of Partner/Friendship / Heart seals (because at that point you can create a monster of any character given enough gold).

- Join times \ availability are important, but that cannot be the main staple of your argument for or against a unit. For example, Revelations Odin joins late, at the point where your main party is promoted, and is a pain to grind up into use -- but his damage/utility results are subpar at best without some interesting reclassing using seals, which breaks the rule above (I do love Swordmaster!Odin, but that doesn't adhere to this ruleset). Arguments can be on a game-by-game basis. 

I don't want to talk about healers, because there's a lot of them, and it is very route dependent. For example, Conquest Elise is Jesus Christ in pigtails on a horse. Revelations Elise is an adorable benchwarmer, and eventually Odin's bedwarmer. Not going to talk about the beast units because the Kids are just straight up better because they get access to a parent's skill. The Wolves are better than the foxes IMO though, because of bulk. 

EDITS:

10/11/17: Mozu moved to lances (we all make her an archer and think of her that way, but she does technically need a heart seal to be usable, so I can't break my own rules, can I? I'll leave her description though, still kinda works. Some minor clarification edits

10/11/17: I FORGOT KIRAGI I'M SORRY. Also, some shifting in the Archer rankings.

10/13/17: I forgot more people. Such a bloated cast. Adding Percy, Anna, Izana. Will add Rhajat, Fuga, and Scarlet after reasoning for their placement is provided (I've never used them). 

I suppose I'll start with my personal ranking, which will probably change as the discussion develops:

Mages

1.) Ophelia -- Conquest is a specialist-oriented game, meaning you want someone to do their one job super well. Ophelia consistently turns into a glass cannon that can one-round or one-shot many units with her personal tome. In Conquest, where your only other mage option really worth talking about is Leo (Mage!Odin just never performs for me, sadly), this makes her very valuable. Odin's early join allows for her birth relatively early on in the game when compared to other kids (with the exception of F!Corrin Dwyer and Effie!Percy). In Revelations, she is harder to get by a decently large margin, but the work required to build a support between Odin and someone else is, in my opinion, worth it.

2.) Leo -- Leo being #2 and not #1 is going to trigger people, because in Conquest he joins at a good time, with good bases (needs a speedwing, that's it) and is mounted. There, the key requirements for a strong unit. Oh, and also a powerful personal tome with a situationally useful effect (Final battle vs. Iago comes to mind, with Leo dueling the room full of Sorcerers). So why do I put him this low? Well, its because his damage output is just not high enough for endgame without heart sealing him into a sorcerer (which would then make him quite powerful indeed, I've tried it). Leo not being #1 is purely opinion. Strictly speaking, Leo is probably a better choice for #1, but I value Ophelia's damage highly. He does take a penalty from his late join time in Revelations, but it really isn't that late, so it's nbd.

3.) Hayato -- He's got acceptable bases and good growths in Revelations, so he can make a quality Onmyoji. I think his potential outscales that of the other options, though I admittedly haven't done a ton of digging for that comparison -- and I haven't played Birthright. I don't have a lot else to say here, I found myself not using him in my Revelations run despite his nice early join time and the lack of real mages at that point in the game. 

4.) Orochi -- She can hit hard, with a good magic stat, but she's slow. Oh dear god is she slow. If you can't double, that's a major problem. Her personal is also functionally worthless, as there's no reason to really capture units in any of the games except MAYBE Haitaka in Conquest for the Rally Defense pre-Ch.10. 

5.) Izana -- He is a strong replacement unit. He is a decently strong, but not exceptional, Onmyoji, with a personal skill that makes ALL units within 2 tiles of him take 2 less damage. If properly positioned, this can be helpful, if not properly positioned, this can be a detriment. You get him in by getting the bath house to max level IIRC, which takes awhile, and is a waste of DVP for a lot of the game. So he's good, but any of the above mages are just flat out better (except maybe Orochi, because of how many levels she would already have). 

6.) Nyx -- She has higher dps potential than Orochi, in my experience, but she at no point avoids getting one shot by a physical unit -- even some mages can ORKO her, and that frailty is really bad for me personally as a player (I have a tendency to miss 83+% hit chances. A lot. It's a curse I swear). Ophelia above is not much bulkier, but she does a fair amount more damage and has a strong personal weapon, so I forgave her for that.

7.) Odin -- I'm sorry Odin, I love you, but you are just a middling mage at best. You are at your peak magic performance when Nos-tanking, and that isn't even as strong a tactic in Fates. A forged and named Mjolnir tome can potentially patch up your offensive problems, and your skill ensures a lot of Vengance procs (which doesn't matter, as Nos can't use offensive skills, so no synergy), but you just aren't a stellar mage. You are leagues better as another class, but we cannot consider this, because of my rules. You make a decent Dark Knight I suppose, but unless you're Corrin or Leo, Dark Knight just isn't a great class. 

Ninjas

1.) Kagero -- Based purely on my experience in Revelations, Kagero joins at a decent time, and only a level or two behind, so getting her to be in line with the rest of the team requires practically no effort. She has the highest strength growth of the ninjas, and her speed is equally high (70%/70%), both of those being higher than Saizo's, and her speed only being 15% lower, which doesn't affect much. She joins only three chapters after Kaze, and has a much higher potential for damage. While yes, ninjas are primarily debuffers, being able to have the strength to reliably kill things is incredible for a ninja. As a master ninja she won't proc Lethality much, but it's useless ass Lethality so who cares. She abuses Shurikenfaire to do even more damage (my kagero is currently doing roughly 30+ x2 to everything she initiates against that isn't another Master Ninja), and in the more even pairup against enemy Ninjas, her personal skill functions like a situational counter that also mirrors the debuffs. This allows Kagero to win just about every 1v1 (and a lot of 1v2, if paired up) Ninja duel in Revelations. She's also hot as fuck, so I can't in good conscience leave that out.

2.) Kaze -- In every route of the game, you get Kaze early. He's one of your first locktouch units (except for Niles), he's fast, so he can kill weaker enemies in the earlygame to scale up his level to stay somewhat relevant, and his natural Ninja kit allows you to easily set up kills for other units that need exp. His personal skill has saved me a few times, but you can't rightly rely on it (unless you have Kaze support Midori -- then you might be safe). However, as the game progresses he simply stops doing damage -- especially in Conquest, where you can't really get good shuriken for him (No Barb or Sting shuriken, those are the big-uns to make him useful). As a master ninja in conquest, he can be a BOON to you with a Hunter's Knife during the Furry Genocide, but after that he just can't hold his own. He's also made of wet tissue paper, so oneshots happen if an archer looks at him wrong.

3.) Saizo / Asugi -- His best growth is 80% in skill. Ninjas don't have issues hitting things, and lethality frankly is a trash skill that isn't worth using, if given the option to replace (which you wont, no heart seals, remember?). Every one of his other growths are average at best, and fall severely lacking behind the other two ninjas in the stats Ninjas need to be effective. Combine that with a personal skill that is literally only a positive in scrub-casual (phoenix) mode, and Saizo is the weakest ninja of the bunch. Again, we aren't considering seal usage here, even though I've heard he might be a decent Samurai. Asugi's base growths are similar to Saizos, but they might be able to be patched up with a good parent. I'm not sure. 

Cavaliers

1. ) Xander -- Siegfried is an amazing weapon, Xander always comes into the game with excellent bases, and in a class that can be both a damage class and a physical tank class (especially post-Defender). Good movement is obvious as a Paladin, and he is just a solid unit that most players agree is a very powerful and necessary unit for higher-difficulty runs. I don't need to say much more. 

2.) Siegbert is a mini-Xander sans Siegfried. His personal makes him a decent pair-up bot, but his stats are respectable upon recruitment, and he makes a solid Great Knight (a class I'm not particularly fond of, but his stats are good). His effectiveness is depended on his mother to an extent, however. 

3.) Sophie -- Silas' kid outshines him by default, especially with a good mother. She has a fun personal skill and can grow into a solid Paladin come lategame. She's a decent choice to pair up with Siegbert actually. Again, effectiveness may be hindered or buffed by her mother. 

4.) Peri -- Peri is a mixed bag for me. On one hand, she has decent growths in strength and speed (60+% at base and with either promotion). On the other hand, she is frail. 35% defense growth frail. In Revelations, you get her too late for her to be worth training. In Conquest however, she could be worth training, as she comes into the game early on, at the same time as Laslow, and at a decent level with usable bases. Her personal skill is weird and slightly un-intuitive to make use of, as it gives her +4 to all offensive stats after initiating combat and killing the target. But only for one turn, meaning that to USE that stat boost you either need to dance her (which may be worth it, depends on scenario), or put her in a position where she can use those buffs in enemy phase, while counterattacking. Let me remind you, 35% defense growth, and base 10 in both defense and res in Conquest upon recruitment. She can counterattack mages fine (55% res growth), but if she's counterattacking on enemy phase, she is probably in melee, and Bloodthirst doesn't give her any defensive buff. So she's clunky to use to maximum potential. 

5.) Silas -- He's good earlygame, and should be benched in the midgame, because he is painfully average in every way, and his personal skill encourages risking a reset-by-Corrin-death. Lean on him for as little time as possible. In Revelations, he's hot garbage with a late join time. In Conquest, he's mediocre at best but you get him early. Use him for his kid and move on with your life. 

6.) Gunter -- It's Gunter. I need say no more. 

Swordfighters (Mercenaries and Samurai)

1.) Ryoma -- He has a personal 1-2 range weapon that gives him +4 str. This weapon pushes Ryoma into a power tier with Xander, though perhaps less reliable because of Swordmasters' reliance on dodging for survivability. Vantage is a skill I like a lot, and paired with Ryoma's high skill and Astra can lead to some clutch 1vMany scenarios -- but don't rely on these, please? His stats and growths are above average, and in Revelations he joins even before Xander and Leo IIRC, so you have more time to abuse him if you should so desire. There isn't a ton to say here. 

2.) Soleil -- With a non-mage mother Soleil can be a very solid unit. As both a Bow Knight and a Hero she can perform as a solid offensive threat with her base 60% strength growth, though her defenses aren't amazing. An argument could be made for placing Laslow here instead because he is slightly bulkier, and therefore can more effectively use Strong Riposte, but Soleil is a reliable unit with a strong personal skill. Her personal benefits from having a bulky female unit support her (In my runs I've supported Soleil with GK!Sophie), and that can effectively patch up her defensive problems. 

3.) Laslow -- Laslow is a (Marginally) bulkier Soleil, and his high skill, strength, and luck let him be a reliable, if not exceptional, player phase and enemy phase unit (if given a 1-2 range weapon). All of his pros are generic Merc/Hero pros, aside from his unique personal skill. His personal rallies +1 speed and +1 strength, which may not seem like much, but can make a distinct impact on a chapter. If you promote him into a Bow Knight he also picks up Rally Skill, so he can (by still following these rules) become a semi-respectable rallybot, which is never a bad thing. He is a solid unit all around.

4.) DISCLAIMER -- In my Revelations runs I have not ever found much effective use out of the samurai retainers, and therefore I don't have much of a good idea for how good they are. They just never seem to pull their weight, especially fucking weak ass revelations Hana. So I'm going to assume at least one of them (Probably Hinata's kid, kids are usually better) falls in here. 

5.) Selena -- Selena is a slightly weaker, but noticably faster, Mercenary that comes into the game just a couple chapters before Laslow, in a chapter that has many axe users that she can just kill for easy experience. She, much like Laslow, won't become a stand-out combat unit in the lategame, but she can, like Laslow, be a reliable pick with a good pair up, however her personal skill provides disincentive for pairing up, as it is solely a situational crit for the attack stance -- a situation in which her supported ally's crit doesn't kill the enemy, which doesn't happen often. She's decent, but second rate. 

6.) If they werent in #4, they go here. 

Fliers

1.) Camilla -- Joins early in both playable routes, has excellent bases and actually okay growths, she has flier utility, and is just generally strong. Malig Knight is not the optimal class for her, Wyvern Lord is, but that takes a Heart Seal so I won't consider it. She as a Malig Knight still has strong speed and strength, allowing her to scale into the lategame as a damage threat without babying (or even dedicated use). Her magic stat is just bad, so its not worth trying to use her as a flying magic threat -- so unless you're one of those people who burns a ton of spirit dust on her, she will be a physical threat pretty much exclusively. That said, she is a strong flyer and can ORKO most of the other characters in the game without much effort. She also gives some nice physical attributes to her kid, some good strength and some good defense. Excellent unit.

2.) Caeldori -- Cordelia, because we all know the best pairing is the Selena!Subaki pairing for story reasons, is a quite solid flying unit, and frankly the only flyer besides Camilla that that I found good use out of. Hinoka was good, but fell flat. Her personal evens out power imbalances to an extent, she has good stats, and a good parent can double down on that. She is a solid flying unit that is worth using useless Subaki for. 

3.) Hinoka -- Her personal skill is really nice, but other than that she just never works out statwise in my Revelations. I might just be unlucky, but I don't have much to say. Remember, I have not played Birthright. 

4.) Shigure -- Shigure can either be quite powerful or totally useless depending on his father. If he gets some rally skills passed down to him, and then promotes into a Sky Knight, he can double down on his personal skill, which is a rally that does small heals. This is usefull, but rarely lifesaving. It is just easy sustain. Like other pegasus riders, he will not hit super hard, but he will usually double, and his utility as a flier makes him usable by default. His combat effectiveness is reliant upon his father, and his best non-Corrin father is Kaze by far, giving him a 53%/65% strength/speed growths, which can make him deadly indeed. 

5.) Reina -- Reina is a powerful midgame pre-promote in Revelations with a mini-Lifetaker personal skill (which I am a fan of). Her stats are decent, and she will serve as that strong flyer until you can get actually decent fliers trained up. A big weakness of hers is her total lack of supports with non-Corrin units, which limits her pair-up potential for stat bonuses. She is your midgame crutch unit if you need it, and I say that's okay. She will be effective for awhile, but she stops being useful lategame. 

6.) Percy (tentative ranking) -- Percy has always been hit or miss with me. I usually get access to his paralogue (which is the child chapter that actually gives me the most trouble for some reason) pretty early because it's easy to pair off Effie and Arthur and then forget the dad exists. Percy is another wyvern rider, with decent growths and really high skill and luck. But he has never seemed to work out well enough for me to justify filling a slot on my team with him. I'm interested in other opinions here, potentially in what mother is better off for him. I've tried a few different ones, but Percy just never works out. 

7.) Beruka -- Tankier Camilla(?). Without the lovely breasts. Her personal skill frankly doesn't matter, dealing +4 damage to helpless units makes little difference when those units are healers or archers 9 times out of 10 -- the latter of which you probably wont double, and therefore shouldn't be hitting. She's decent pair up fodder, gives good defense to kids, but she's overshadowed by just about every other flier. 

8.) Subaki -- Subaki doesn't do damage. At all. He's hot garbage and literally exists to help bring Caeldori into existence. I hate this unit. 

Fighters / Savages

These are just kinda...bad. Across the board. I don't use them for similar reasons as a certain Berserker-triggered user that will probably show up here  ( <3 ). Doesn't help that Arthur is abysmal, Charlotte is bad, I didn't use Rinkah and I just don't have an opinion on where they fall relative to eachother. I'm interested in what you guys have to say on this one.

Knights

1.) Benny -- Benny is a min-maxed tank, make his ass a General for wary fighter, and watch him just not take damage from anything that isn't a mage. His strength is decent, his defense is excellent, his res actually could be worse, and that's fine. I personally don't find myself using this entire class of units in the endgame, just because of low movement. 

2.) Effie -- She is Benny, but with earlier Conquest join time, and respectably higher damage output. In Conquest, she's better because of availability and damage, but Revelations Benny is better across the board, so why use her there?

3.) Ignatious -- He's like Benny, but a child unit, and therefore potentially really good or gimped. It's hard for me to rank this class of characters, because they all do the same kind of thing, with slight variation. 

Lancers

1.) Oboro -- Comes early, comes strong, her base classes have some excellent skills, and her personal skill is only situationally effective in Revelations, but that's okay. Lances in general are pretty damn strong in Fates as a whole, and she can abuse that. She's your best candidate for the Waterwheel come lategame, and can be both a debuffer, a frontliner (if not a tank, per se) and a damage threat. 

2.) Shiro -- Child unit, child of Ryoma. Potentially stronger than Oboro, but I haven't personally used him, so I'm not sure. Again, this is a category i'm interested in discussion about -- for learning purposes. 

3.) Mozu -- She has a lot of levels to get stats in, and as Conquest's only potential Sniper, she has a lot of value. Her stats will lead her to out damage Takumi in the late game, she is only #2 and not #1 because of the amount of effort it takes to level this little girl up. She can scale up super hard, and can be decent, but I find that she isn't worth the grind required. That exp could go towards other units. But all of this is moot because she needs that heart seal to do literally anything. 

Archers

1.) Takumi -- His stats are only slightly above average at best, but he is #1 because the Fujin Yumi is just...strong. His availability is excellent, his usability is similarly so, and he can scale into the lategame because he gets carried by the Fujin Yumi. 

2.) Kiragi -- He's a better Takumi without the Fujin Yumi by default, and give him a strong mother like Camilla and he can make for a super powerful Kinshi knight. His personal skill is designed around enemy phase, which isn't a great thing for any archer unit, but it can be helpful if you want him to duel Ninjas with WTA. His good stats and strong weapon options in Revelations make him quite powerful, and is worth a slot on your team. Come endgame, he might be more powerful than Takumi (especially if you make him a Sniper instead). 

3.) Nina -- She's Niles but with more magic focus. I haven't personally had her be incredible ever, but she can put in work with a Shining Bow and provides excellent staff utility. Her personal benefits from you having two dudes paired up nearby, and that isn't a hard thing to do. Her biggest flaw for me has always been her abysmal defense. She is super frail, and that can make her a liability. That said, I think my experiences with her have resulted from me making really bad decisions regarding her mother, and I have been told by others that with an actually good mom she becomes a very nice adventurer or bow knight that can replace Niles on Conquest or be a solid unit in Revelations. 

4a.) Setsuna -- She's either #4 or #5 depending on which Shura you are looking at, but she can become another Mozu, with just a little less effectiveness. Her personal is kinda just...bad. It's not useful, so she gets not unique combat edge. 

4b.) Shura -- In Conquest he's a decent Adventurer that you will usually kill for free Boots. In Revelations he's a super powerful prepromote that you can get pretty damn early. You can bench him until chapter 20, then pick him up and he will put in work. He does decent damage, and he comes with staff utility. His personal lets him debuff 1 range units, which is situationally quite nice. He's solid.

4c.) Anna -- Anna will be a better archer for you than Shura outside of Revelations. her personal is a fun little quirk that nets you some spare cash, but she won't be doing a lot of damage until she promotes to Adventurer to make good use out of her magic stat with a Shining Bow and staff utility. Shining Bow Anna can hold her own, but her biggest weakness is her physical frailty, so don't misposition her. Her recruitment chapter is...interesting. I have problems with trying to do it early (as in pre-CQ ch.10), but if you can do it, it's pretty decent. 

6.) Midori -- She can be a money-generator for you, or a decently powerful unit as a Merchant. Mechanist is also an option for her, and her stats are decent enough to facilitate both option, but as a merchant she gets the capability to generate gold, and then throw it at people for bonus damage. She has some powerful sets that abuse heart seals and the like, but she's a solid unit with just her base promotion options. Her personal makes her generate gold so much more often, it's really nice, especially in college-debt-poor Conquest. But, she doesn't kill as efficiently as others, and as such is somewhat gimmicky. 

7.) Niles -- He's great earlygame in Conquest, unusable in Revelations, and he will never be a superstar or even a reliable lategame unit. You use him into the midgame, then you should either not need him or replace him with Nina.

 

 

I'm really interested in what you guys have to say :) 

Edited by Mandokarla

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I take issue with your logic for putting Ophelia above Leo. Personally I feel a unit that can survive fighting on the enemy phase will always be better than a unit who specializes in the player phase with very few exceptions, and Leo is reasonably tanky thanks to his passable bases and good growths. Now, granted, the stuff I've heard people do with Ophelia on Conquest Lunatic frankly boggles the mind, so she probably deserves that #1 spot anyway, but decidedly not for the reasons you mentioned. Between his great tome and powerful magic growth and generally lower demands for resistance, Leo has no difficulty one-rounding enemies, and he's far more durable than any other mage in the game besides maybe Odin, and even then Leo has better all-around stats.

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8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I take issue with your logic for putting Ophelia above Leo. Personally I feel a unit that can survive fighting on the enemy phase will always be better than a unit who specializes in the player phase with very few exceptions, and Leo is reasonably tanky thanks to his passable bases and good growths. Now, granted, the stuff I've heard people do with Ophelia on Conquest Lunatic frankly boggles the mind, so she probably deserves that #1 spot anyway, but decidedly not for the reasons you mentioned. Between his great tome and powerful magic growth and generally lower demands for resistance, Leo has no difficulty one-rounding enemies, and he's far more durable than any other mage in the game besides maybe Odin, and even then Leo has better all-around stats.

 

Ophelia had a very straight set up that makes her basically invincible

Which is like give her Vantage and press End Turn with Nosferatu in tow because in reality between her wtf Magic, enough durability to survive a hit, Vantage, Guard Gauge and natural dodging you get a pretty gud unit

Also she comes with Spirit Dust

 

Camilla as a Malig using Bolt Axe is actually pretty strong. You dont really need too much mag to make that work

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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Why do people say Camilla is better as a Wyvern Lord rather than a Malig Knight? They both have the same str growth and Wyvern Lord's promotion stats are only +1 STR but a massive -6 magic and -5 RES. Not worth it since I have other better physical tanks to use.

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30 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Why do people say Camilla is better as a Wyvern Lord rather than a Malig Knight? They both have the same str growth and Wyvern Lord's promotion stats are only +1 STR but a massive -6 magic and -5 RES. Not worth it since I have other better physical tanks to use.

Speed, skill, and def.

Quick ranking.

SM: Ryoma because ryoma.

Be: 7way dracozerk tie.

Every other physical job: Silias. VoF is completely busted.

Best mage: Swiss family vantagesorc.

General Boltaxe: Elise

Capture is actually really good....

 

Edited by joshcja

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Ophelia is perfection so glad she's number 1. Leo is not to be underestimated either.

Edited by Logos

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1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

3.) Saizo / Asugi -- His best growth is 80% in skill. Ninjas don't have issues hitting things, and lethality frankly is a trash skill that isn't worth using, if given the option to replace.

Looking at your rules, you're not allowed to use any Seal besides Eternal Seals, and can't use DLC Skill Scrolls. Because of this, you don't actually have anything to replace Lethality with. Probably doesn't affect the placement, but just thought I'd point that out. Also, Mozu needs to be moved to the Lance user list because you can't make her an Archer without a Seal, meaning you can't put her into the Archer list.

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

there's no reason to really capture units in any of the games except MAYBE Haitaka in Conquest for the Rally Defense pre-Ch.10. 

Woah, hey, man, Nichol's always pulled his weight for the three or four Chapters it takes me to get Beruka or Camilla, plus he's also the only natural Wyvern rider accessible in Birthright thanks to Silas being all-path. I capture him every playthrough, whatever the path, and he makes do.

I have more I'd like to say, but don't have time tonight, so I'll try to get the rest of my thoughts on this down tomorrow or Thursday, please forgive me if I end up taking longer.

Edited by SoulWeaver

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1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

Why do people say Camilla is better as a Wyvern Lord rather than a Malig Knight? They both have the same str growth and Wyvern Lord's promotion stats are only +1 STR but a massive -6 magic and -5 RES. Not worth it since I have other better physical tanks to use.

I'm not entirely sure. But frankly, I never found myself wishing that I had held out in Malig Knight for longer in my second Conquest run.

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Camilla as a Malig using Bolt Axe is actually pretty strong. You dont really need too much mag to make that work

Honestly, I don't really care for the magic weapons in general in this game - exactly what would they be best used on??? Rare classes that only show up like twice in the story at most (Stoneborn)?? Classes that get rekt by effective weaponry (Great Knights and Generals)??

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11 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm not entirely sure. But frankly, I never found myself wishing that I had held out in Malig Knight for longer in my second Conquest run.

Honestly, I don't really care for the magic weapons in general in this game - exactly what would they be best used on??? Rare classes that only show up like twice in the story at most (Stoneborn)?? Classes that get rekt by effective weaponry (Great Knights and Generals)??

Theres only so many effective weapons to hand out. That and bolt axe Camilla does great vs low res enemies. Camilla is also not countered by armorslayer/beastslayer so with the bolt axe she pretty good for baiting out the knights in say ch 18. You can use Lunge to finish off a knight and reposition Camilla to hit the rest of the knights with savage blow. Every bit of damage helps.

Edited by wissenschaft

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8 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Theres only so many effective weapons to hand out. That and bolt axe Camilla does great vs low res enemies. Camilla is also not countered by armorslayer/beastslayer so with the bolt axe she pretty good for baiting out the knights in say ch 18. You can use Lunge to finish off a knight and reposition Camilla to hit the rest of the knights with savage blow. Every bit of damage helps.

Except which low res classes are actually notable? Because I feel that I've mentioned the only two notable ones. Also, I'm not seeing Camilla doing like 1/4 of a General's health at most with the Bolt Axe as anything notable. (Note that Generals tend to have Wary Fighter, which means only one hit on them) And unfortunately, post-combat skills take place before the position swap, meaning Savage Blow isn't as helpful as you claim.

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24 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except which low res classes are actually notable? Because I feel that I've mentioned the only two notable ones. Also, I'm not seeing Camilla doing like 1/4 of a General's health at most with the Bolt Axe as anything notable. (Note that Generals tend to have Wary Fighter, which means only one hit on them) And unfortunately, post-combat skills take place before the position swap, meaning Savage Blow isn't as helpful as you claim.

Does it? Awww, shucks. That does weaken savage blow. Still, its useful. And Camilla is doing like 40% damage to those wary fighter knights with the bolt axe. Not bad, since nothing I got one shots them. In fact, with a magic pair up like Felecia, she can two round kill them. Which is pretty sweet.

Edited by wissenschaft

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13 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Does it? Awww, shucks. That does weaken savage blow. Still, its useful. And Camilla is doing like 40% damage to those wary fighter knights with the bolt axe. Not bad, since nothing I got one shots them.

The fact that nothing one-shots them would be precisely why I would get in their face and Hammertime them - short of a Pavise activation, they're gonna be left hurting.

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5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The fact that nothing one-shots them would be precisely why I would get in their face and Hammertime them - short of a Pavise activation, they're gonna be left hurting.

Except the Hammer has 1 range and the bolt axe has 1-2 range so I can actually hit the spear using knight. I got 4 knights to kill in one turn, three with wary fighter. Fun times. Conquest is full of little puzzles like this.

Edited by wissenschaft

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8 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Looking at your rules, you're not allowed to use any Seal besides Eternal Seals, and can't use DLC Skill Scrolls. Because of this, you don't actually have anything to replace Lethality with. Probably doesn't affect the placement, but just thought I'd point that out. Also, Mozu needs to be moved to the Lance user list because you can't make her an Archer without a Seal, meaning you can't put her into the Archer list.

Shit, you're absolutely right. I almost want to make the exception for her because she's worthless as a villager, but you're right, I'll shift her down. 

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9 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Why do people say Camilla is better as a Wyvern Lord rather than a Malig Knight? They both have the same str growth and Wyvern Lord's promotion stats are only +1 STR but a massive -6 magic and -5 RES. Not worth it since I have other better physical tanks to use.

Honestly, the class skills are better. Rally Defense will ALWAYS be useful in either route, and it gives Camilla something to do when she doesn't have anything to kill. I also find that Swordbreaker is much more valuable than trample, as the only things Camilla can have problems hitting are enemy swordmasters or heroes. Swordbreaker just kills the WTA swords have over her default axes. Savage Blow is inconsequential chip damage, and trample, while a nice damage boost, isn't going to be the thing that makes you win in the lategame -- you probably won't really need it. Now, I dont heart seal her into WL until she gets savage blow anyway, just cuz its not a hassle to wait four levels, but thats the big thing for me. But this discussion is tangential, as HS are not to be considered here.

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I feel like Mozu's best options are just to class change her into an archer or dread fighter immediately.  Though if we are forced to ignore heart seals (madness), she still makes a pretty good master at arms. Its not something to be ignored.

@Mandokarla Thanks for answering. I'm playing Lunatic conquest right now and eh, I haven't felt the need for those skills. Swordbreaker is only coming at the end of the game so like trample its not that big a deal. Rally defense I get from a capture unit and I don't even use him. Don't really need rally defense. And I'm always attacking something with Camilla. I guess I've just been lucky with some magic level ups with her but bolt axe Camilla has be a key unit in several chapters for me so far. She my HP bloat fighter killer.

Edited by wissenschaft

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12 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

I feel like Mozu's best options are just to class change her into an archer or dread fighter immediately.  Though if we are forced to ignore heart seals (madness), she still makes a pretty good master at arms. Its not something to be ignored.

The reason I chose to exclude heart seals / other seals is because those seals functionally remove the lines between classes in the sense that anybody can be anything (with few exceptions). I'd have Odin high on the Swordfighter list because I have had exceptional success with Swordmaster!Odin. He'd probably be #3. But he comes as a mage, and his character is focused around being a mage, not a swordsman. Consider this from a newcomers perspective: Is it more helpful for a first playthrough to have an idea of who is best at what at base, or is it more helpful to a newcomer to look at a hyperfluid, situational, and expensive listing of Heart / Partner / Friendship seal combinations that may or may not be optimal? I'd say a newcomer will find more use out of the former. 

This isn't a character tier list, which would allow all of that. This is specifically for those base classes.

Also, I actually had completely forgotten that Villager can promote into Master of Arms (edited, mistyped). How would you describe Mozu's viability as such, or as a Merchant, and where would you put her on the list as a result?

Edited by Mandokarla

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I believe you still need to use a dread fighter seal to make Mozu into one. That said, 

45 55 10 55 70 45 40 50

those are her growths in the class and then add +10% to everything thanks to Aptitude. Yeah......thats insane. lol

On an unrelated note:

Kaze can still use forged knives to help make up for his low str and his decent res makes him a good mage killer. Funnily enough my best mage killer is Felicia.

Edited by wissenschaft

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3 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

I believe you still need to use a dread fighter seal to make Mozu into one. That said, 

45 55 10 55 70 45 40 50

those are her growths in the class and then add +10% to everything thanks to Aptitude. Yeah......thats insane. lol

On an unrelated note:

Kaze can still use forged knives to help make up for his low str and his decent res makes him a good mage killer. Funnily enough my best mage killer is Felicia.

I had mistyped, I meant to say Master of Arms, I have edited it. Kaze is still a very good unit, but Kag does that without needing forged knives. Felicia though, give that baby the Flame Shuriken and she nukes into the lategame. I count her as a healer class though, and those are just hard to rank well. If we did, It would probably be Elise and Felicia competing for #1, maybe Sakura close behind. Maybe. 

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I don't have birthright but I've seen more than one person comment that Master of Arms Mozu makes for a decently tanky unit in a path defined by its lack of tanks.

Her growths in Master of Arms:

50 55 5 60 65 55 45 30

and add +10% to everything thanks to Aptitude. Again, thats insane. Decent Defense growth and she'll be able to use the guard naginata.

As for Sakura, she can use the shining bow and both paths with her allow for grinding so if you have the time you can exploit her magic and make use of that shining bow. I think Felicia is the #1 healer though since she requires no master seal, is a super prepromote and my god, her with a flame shuriken.

Edited by wissenschaft

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7 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

That's...pretty stupid actually. I might have to give that a shot, that's very strong on paper. 

Even better if shes a mother of a child and you grind support the moment you can to get a child unit ASAP and pass down Attitude to them. OH YEAH, madness. For example, in conquest, Mozu!Percy can be gotten right after her prologue if you just use my castle battles to grind support levels. Pure madness. ;)

Edited by wissenschaft

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13 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

2.) Midori -- She can be a money-generator for you, or a decently powerful unit as a Merchant. Mechanist is also an option for her, and her stats are decent enough to facilitate both option, but as a merchant she gets the capability to generate gold, and then throw it at people for bonus damage. She has some powerful sets that abuse heart seals and the like, but she's a solid unit with just her base promotion options. Her personal makes her generate gold so much more often, it's really nice, especially in college-debt-poor Conquest. 

The issue that I have with this is threefold - Profiteer is unreliable, even on Midori (at best, she musters a marginally better than 50/50 chance to generate a gold bar). Strike one. There's also the fact that Profiteer stops working after seven turns. Strike two. As if that wasn't bad enough, the gold bars generated sell for chump change. Strike three. Personally, I would like my money generating methods to not be slow and luck-based. Spendthrift is a level 15 skill, and we all know the issue with those. On top of that, having to blow inventory slots on gold bars makes it a pain to use, especially repeatedly.

2 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Kaze can still use forged knives to help make up for his low str

My big issue with forge-related arguments lies in how cumbersome the forging system is.

3 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

Honestly, the class skills are better. Rally Defense will ALWAYS be useful in either route, and it gives Camilla something to do when she doesn't have anything to kill. I also find that Swordbreaker is much more valuable than trample, as the only things Camilla can have problems hitting are enemy swordmasters or heroes. Swordbreaker just kills the WTA swords have over her default axes. Savage Blow is inconsequential chip damage, and trample, while a nice damage boost, isn't going to be the thing that makes you win in the lategame -- you probably won't really need it. Now, I dont heart seal her into WL until she gets savage blow anyway, just cuz its not a hassle to wait four levels, but thats the big thing for me. But this discussion is tangential, as HS are not to be considered here.

I'd agree - frankly, in my second run, I sealed Camilla to Wyvern Lord immediately and never looked back. I didn't feel I was missing out on much, either.

10 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Except the Hammer has 1 range and the bolt axe has 1-2 range so I can actually hit the spear using knight. I got 4 knights to kill in one turn, three with wary fighter. Fun times. Conquest is full of little puzzles like this.

Still, with Pavise needing to be factored in, I'd rather use something that would do respectable damage even blunted than something that would only tickle the enemy if it got halved.

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4 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

Crap, you're absolutely right. I almost want to make the exception for her because she's worthless as a villager, but you're right, I'll shift her down. 

Pretty sure no one would fault you if you did make an exception.

As mentioned before, she does go to Master at Arms and Merchant. I've never had Merchant Mozu really do anything outstanding seeing as how the Class is trapped somewhere between a Bow specialist and a Lance specialist while also trying to be a moneymaker somehow and ends up being kind of meh at all of it, but from my experience Master at Arms Mozu is killer in Birthright and at the very very least decent in Revelations, her main difficulty being that you have to train her up through the worthless Villager Class first, a negative that's pretty much neutralized by her join time if you ask me. She has access to the entire Triangle, something you're not getting otherwise unless you make someone a Great Knight, a Class which while better DEF- and MOV-wise also suffers from both Armor- and Cavalry-killing weapons. Also, while Great Knight may have better DEF, Master at Arms is still a formidable and from my experience rather versatile Class, definitely much sturdier than pretty much any other Class Mozu can get barring Friendship/Partner Seals which aren't being considered.

Also, you could probably separate Master at Arms characters, seeing as how they have all three weapon types and don't really naturally fit into any other section you have as far as I can see. Gives you an excuse to use Fuga if nothing else.

My last three things for now are again about capturing: First off, I think the capturable non-generic bosses(Candace, Haitaka, Kumagera, etc.) should be given a chance to be included as they can be really useful even if only as backup Units in case someone bites it(plus this gives me another chance to rage about Omozu), though admittedly a new player probably isn't going to be worrying about that and you mentioned this being partially aimed at helping newer players. Second, I lied about Nichol being the only Wyvern rider in Birthright because I forgot Scarlet existed, though I think this is pretty much irrelevant to Nichol's usability because you can marry Silas off WAAAAY before you get Scarlet, meaning you can pick Nichol up earlygame and he's basically a slightly worse Camilla, meaning you either use him as your Camilla replacement if she goes down in Conquest or Revelations or you just use him all through Birthright. Third, tying in to the first one, Gazak(boss of Forrest's Paralogue) is amazing at his job. I've only used him twice because I've been playing Echoes more than Fates, but he's been substantially better than Arthur and Charlotte, though that's not saying much and you're still looking at a Berserker. He does, however, naturally have Pavise and Certain Blow, which are good.

Anyways, glad I could help with Mozu, give Fuga a try if you haven't already!

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