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On 31-10-2017 at 7:54 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Just because he's "not wrong" doesn't make him likable, a good person, or anything else. You can be right and still be a complete unlikable jerk. His awful personal experiences as you called them are seriously just sympathy grabs and an attempt to explain why he's such a complete jerk. He's never called out on it in RD, I haven't played PoR so I can't speak on anything he did or didn't do there, I'm going purely on RD here. I have no issue with Shinon even, who is a massive jerk, but at least he's called out on it! Titania mentions that Soren was being rude but... not to Soren and it's immediately brushed off as "Soren being Soren" and hey, at least he's better than he was!

Again, I haven't played PoR so I'm going purely off of RD here. I get him being better than the Laguz strategists but he outsmarts Zelgius? And the entirety of the Begnion Central Army? They may not be the best but there has to be a few that are competent. My biggest issue is when they literally get rid of Micaiah's foresight, citing "exhaustion" when we all know it's just a way for Soren to keep his winning streak up. Because there's no way Soren can loose to a "silly girl" as he puts it. Also Micaiah's fire stunt didn't actually get the better of him because it didn't work and the only damage done was that they needed to wait for the pegasi to get the oil off their wings.

 

Ah okay. In POR Soren does get called out a lot. I think Boyd outright calls him heartless at one point and one scene with Ike shows that Titania calling him out earlier that chapter really got to him.

But Zelgius does beat out Soren in the end. The damage from the fire was also a little worse then merely their winged ponies being grounded. Ranulf  says the Begnion and Crimean troops with them had been ''obliterated'' 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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On 10/31/2017 at 4:07 PM, Hardin said:

I didn't think the obvious needed pointing out. It boggles my mind that this is even up for debate, Soren's edgy look is as blatant as Camilla's sex appeal.

Your blanket dislike here is saddening. You also ignore Soren as an archetypical Merric, the best one yet. Not to mention Hardin has a little edge in being so heartbroken by Nyna not truly loving him that he goes all possessed.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:07 PM, Slumber said:

Shinon's the one who's an unabashed asshole who doesn't really get any comeuppance like Soren does, and outside of his development with Rolf, doesn't really change as a character at all.

His Janaff support suggests he has room to change though. Read it if you haven't, I felt it was well done. 

 

On 10/31/2017 at 1:50 PM, Slumber said:

RD definitely rounded him out a lot more.

It's called character development. Being around people lots in PoR meant his razor tongue and behaviors were by force of the constant presence of others and their criticism, dulled. It's a gradual, but noticeable improvement brought up in a Base Conversation even. He isn't made into something he isn't, but you never hear this out of him in RD, he does become, as he puts it "more diplomatic" indeed.

Spoiler

Soren
Ignorance is a form of bliss, is it not? These people don't know what it's like to lose a war. They don't want to know. Crimea as a nation has always been blessed by peace. Perhaps this is due to the temperament of its rulers, but the country hasn't seen serious warfare for centuries. While minor skirmishes with the kingdom of Daein have been legion, only the eastern borderlands have taken damage.

Ike
And yet even I know this peace will not last. When we met Daein forces on our scouting mission, they attacked us merely for being within the Crimean border.

Soren
Humans are shameless creatures that carelessly ignore any misfortune which does not befall them directly. They can--and often do--turn a blind eye to all manner of wickedness so long as it does not touch them or their kin. They will bow their heads, condemning those victims for bringing calamity upon themselves, and then they will cast their eyes toward heaven in thanks while their neighbors lay dying around them.

Ike
But the war is happening here. This is their home, not someone else's.

Soren
When the Daein army darkens their doorsteps, perhaps they will understand. When the peace they take for granted is shattered, and their sons and daughters slaughtered in the streets...Perhaps then will they comprehend the misfortunes they so long pretended not to see. I have no sympathy for them.

Ike
...

Ranulf
My goodness, the nastier the truth, the blunter he gets...Quite a delightful staff officer you have there.

Ike
He, um...he has an undeniable streak of severity in him but...but this? Something's bothering him, that's for sure.
 

And then we have this:

Before battle

Nasir
Ike, there's someone here claiming to be an envoy from the theocracy of Begnion. She's been asking if the princess of Crimea is aboard...What do you want to do?

Ike
A Begnion envoy? How did she know about this ship?

Nasir
Hmmm...Perhaps she had word from King Gallia...On the other hand, this is Begnion we're speaking of. I imagine it has spies in every corner of the continent. Perhaps one of those spies is
the source of her information.

Ike
So we shouldn't be surprised that she knows about Princess Elincia, right?

Soren
No, but it's extremely unusual for Begnion to send an envoy to meet a princess whom they do not even acknowledge.

Ike
What do you mean?

Soren
It is a complicated matter. You see, the envoy is essentially an extension of the empress herself. Both Crimea and Daein were once part of Begnion. Both nations have only
recently splintered from the theocracy. I can't fathom why the empress would extend the courtesy of an envoy to a nation she must consider somewhat beneath her. She must be planning something.

Nasir
"Beneath her"? That is somewhat harsh, don't you think?

Soren
Harsh, perhaps, but it's true. Clothing it in sweet words will not hide its bitterness, will it?

Ike
Soren, even I would question the tactfulness of your words.

Soren
I will try to be more diplomatic.

Elincia
Ike, Nasir. You've no need to scold Soren. His words are just that. They do me no harm.

Nasir
I'm glad to hear that, Princess, but he should mind his manners.

Soren
...

As the last line of the first block of text (taken from Blood Runs Red- the chapter in a port where the villagers are all happy) indicates, Soren is bothered throughout PoR by his past and Branded background. Nasir blackmails him with it, and in Begnion, Soren is said to be looking off- later explained in his A support when he says that is when he learned exactly what he was- a Beorc-Laguz mongrel said to hasten the end of the world by 100 years when born.

Also, compare his Aimee Base Convos and how he talks in both- the RD one is an improvement over the PoR one in that it drops some of the dry logical tone for more casual flirting, although used for the logical goal of getting Aimee to slash prices so it isn't 100% out of character.

PoR:

Spoiler

Soren
Aimee?

Aimee
Oh. Soren. Ew. I mean, um...hi. Why are you out so late?

Soren
Do you have some business with Ike?

Aimee
Well, yes I do. I found a special something that I'd like to give to him. Do you know where he is?

Soren
Ike is...in a war meeting. If you have something for him, I can hold on to it for you.

Aimee
Hmm... What should I do? You see, I have this new staff... The staff is VERY valuable. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable simply handing it over to someone who doesn't...understand that.

Soren
That's a Hammerne, is it not? A rare staff that can take any item, no matter how battered and worn, and repair it completely.

Aimee
Why...that's right. You're quite knowledgeable, aren't you?

Soren
If I may continue, I believe that there is only one of these in all the world. It truly is priceless. And you want to give this to Ike?

Aimee
Well, I do want to be helpful.

Soren
...If you truly wish to capture Ike's attention, bringing him staves and whatnot will avail you nothing.

Aimee
What? Really? Oh, dear... I was so hoping he would like it.

Soren
Food, however, would be much more effective than a staff. He's particularly fond of spicy meat dishes.

Aimee
Is that so? Cooking is not something that I'm skilled at, but... Oh, I've got it! I know the perfect dish!

Soren
Ah, good! He will be very pleased! Um...what about the staff?

Aimee
Hee hee! You can keep it as payment for the cooking tip! Take good care of it.

Soren
... Well, she's unexpectedly generous. I received something quite nice from your admirer, Ikey-poo! Thank you so much!

Ike
Hey, wait a minute!
 

RD:

Spoiler

???: No, Ike! Don’t say another word!
Aimee: That voice! It’s–
Ike: C’mon, Soren. She’s going to give us everything! For free!
Soren: Nothing in life is free, Ike. Suppose you said what she asked you to say, hmm? What then? You’d hear it all over the camp. In nearby villages. Eventually, the entire country would be saying it! “Ike, hero of the Mad King’s War, is in love with Aimee the shopgirl.” Rumors can quickly spin out of control.
Ike: Come off it. You’re exaggerating.
Aimee: Ooh, don’t be so sure. With my network of merchants, I’ll spread the word to the four corners of Tellius! Within half a year, everyone will know! Then you will be mine forever, Ike! You’ll have no choice at all!
Ike: Man, you go right for the neck, don’t you? All right, Soren. She’s all yours.
Soren: Yes, sir. What I do now, I do for the good of the company.
Aimee: No, Ike! Don’t go! Don’t do this to me!
Soren: Well, now. Shall we get on with our business? You’re looking more beautiful than ever, Miss Aimee. A true delight for the eyes.
Aimee: Ooo… Now you’re talking, you little lady-killer!
Soren: I know you won’t discount the goods to nothing, since it’s coming from me. So… How about you cut your prices down by three-quarters?
Aimee: Ooh… Decisions, decisions.
Soren: You’re a diamond, and other beorc only glass beads, Miss Aimee. I’ll buy more than enough to justify the discount.
Aimee: Half price, maybe.
Soren: A touch less than three-quarters, then. What do you say, rose of Tellius? O goddess of desire?
Aimee: All right, you win! Just this time, mind you. Take this.
Soren: Ah, a Silver Card. I can buy everything for half price at all of the shops?
Aimee: That’s right. Remember what I said, though. It’s a limited-time deal. I’ll have to take it away soon. Oh, and while you own this card, you won’t be able to sell your weapons as raw material. Got that?
Soren: Understood, Miss Aimee. Stay beautiful.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 4:07 PM, Hardin said:

I'd agree if not for chapter 8, where I'd say he crossed that line. Considering that Lethe and Mordecai just finished cutting a bloody swath through a regiment of Daein soldiers without so much as breaking a sweat, you'd think he'd know better than to antagonize them...

Not to excuse it, he should have kept his cool, but it was the first time he encountered a Laguz since leaving Gallia over a decade ago. He probably had a lot of pent up rage against the people who, you know, denied his existence and would have let him starve to death. He just needed to vent it at long last. He has no positive experiences with Laguz until PoR progresses further.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:46 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Not to mention that I don't like characters whose entire thing is "I hate everyone that isn't *insert character*".

Unlike with Faye/Catria/Cordelia/Tharja and etc., Soren has an actual good reason to be so devoted to Ike. Ike literally saved Soren's life by giving him food when nobody else would. That was also the first act of kindness Soren ever received in life. Saviors tend to be worshipped you know. ✝️;):

 

On 10/31/2017 at 2:54 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

My biggest issue is when they literally get rid of Micaiah's foresight, citing "exhaustion" when we all know it's just a way for Soren to keep his winning streak up.

Honestly, Micaiah losing her foresight can be argued to be a good thing. It does a lot for her I think. Also, Micaiah is a Heron Branded, Herons feel weak when too much chaos is around them, Micaiah losing her powers is because the chaos is too much to see through, there was less chaos when it was just the Daein Liberation War, and even then her powers started to fail her at the end with Jarod's sparing.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 1:38 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

His backstory feels like a contrived sympathy grab

Except for the fact it's pretty well integrated into the greater narrative and world. Not a logical necessity, but no egregious outlier in it either, it fits in readily enough. 

 

On 10/31/2017 at 1:38 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

His scene with Aimee was hilarious though, I have to give him that.

And it's proof he can be more than just cold to everyone not Ike, and I wouldn't say he means to give offense always either. I don't sense offense, just a stating of blunt reality which is harsh to the normal person who knows social cues and norms, in this Gatrie PoR chat:

Spoiler

Soren talks to Gatrie

Gatrie
Hm? Hey, it's you!

Soren
...Hello, Gatrie.

Gatrie
What's wrong? Are you still holding a grudge because I abandoned the Greil Mercenaries so abruptly?

Soren
No, not really. I'm just waiting to find out which side you're working for. If you're on our side, fine...Please fight till you drop. It will only improve our chances of winning.

Gatrie
I, uh...Of course! You know, you can always count on me!

Soren
Hm. "Always." Of course.

Gatrie
Phew...That boy hasn't changed a bit.
 

Soren doesn't necessarily want to be cold or have to be, he just had a genetic inheritance and upbringing that very much inclined him to be that way.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 2:44 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

You could argue Michy's little fire stunt also got the better of him. 

But Soren wasn't in command of 3-12, he was off with Ike, the Holy Guard is more to blame for the 3-12 disaster. And how does one prepare a large army, with the intent of passing peacefully through a country that might want to fight it, protect oneself from all forms of attack? How do you defend against oil?

 

On 10/31/2017 at 2:44 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Elincia's tale spends plenty of time hyping up Bastian as an amazing strategist and it says Lucia isn't a slouch either.

And unfortunately, we never get to see them devising battle strategies all that much because of the plot of PoR and RD not giving either much screentime. Soren is so good, partly because we rarely see people to compare him against.

 

On 10/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, Icelerate said:

Doesn't Titania call Soren out for being unpleasant to Skrimir when Soren refused to sit beside him? Sure you can interpret as Soren being a douche, but not wanting to sit beside a man who is half animal is understandable.

There is also the fact that Soren is Branded, Skrimir is Laguz, and Soren doesn't want to be found out.

And, some of us introverts (including myself) may sometimes act against expected social standards due to our "sensitivity". And we'd rather have a good bit of personal space, or be near those we're close to than people we aren't. It happens all the time with me, I like having a empty seat between me and strangers in public places when possible. And mind you my tongue, though I try to show sensitivity to others, isn't perfectly so either. I tend like Soren to be a bit blunt and tone deaf, not doing so because of wanting to be cold, as expressing reality.

 

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But Zelgius does beat out Soren in the end.

Actually Soren and Zelgius were on the same page- both thought a peace talk would be ideal. It was the Laguz who forced Soren not to mandate that, and then it was Skrimir who ruined Soren's plan.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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I will say this in advance. My hatred of Soren runs deep and as it has not changed in any of my many playthroughs of RD I doubt it will now. I am very much biased against him. If I am being entirely honest I don't feel RD would loose much by cutting him completely from the game. I am simply trying to get an understanding of why people seem to like him so much.

I think I get it now. But it seems like the reasons everyone else loves him are exactly the reasons I can't stand him. I don't like characters like him, I dislike Takumi and Tharja, and Faye was horrible. I still use Takumi in battle but that's only because he's such a good unit, otherwise he's my least favorite character in Fates. (I know, blasphemy xD)

I dislike contrived horrible backstories as the reasons why people act like jerks to everyone, people that focus only on one person to be nice to are not healthy and a pain to have to witness (Astrid is another example of this), he's viewed as some sort of strategic god when in reality he never has good strategic opponents and when he does they cut out their abilities or make them suddenly stupid, and he's somehow the secret heir to Goldoa and Daein and no one has a problem with this but they give Micaiah pure hell over being the secret Apostle of Begnion.

While you could claim that her loosing her foresight is a good thing I think it's exactly the opposite. If they're going to give her a power and it only be effective until she has to go up against the "best strategist ever" then it's really just for his sake that it's not working. If they had never given her the power that would be one thing but she has it. The whole "she's a heron branded" is just an excuse for why she suddenly doesn't have her major strategic trump card, especially since the herons themselves didn't suffer any adverse effects until much later on. The simple fact of the matter is that they couldn't figure out a way to make Soren win easily against someone who can see the future so they got rid of that power while she was up against Soren. They showed it some while she was against Jarod but it didn't actually effect her until she started fighting Soren and Ike, and despite there being no real battles between then and being forced into conflict she was somehow still suffering from it?

I don't mean for this to sound rude if it comes across that way, it's just that Soren is my least favorite character across all of the FE games I've played.

I also have one other confession. I feel like a big part of the reason I dislike Soren so much are shippers. Not all of them obviously, but some of them are downright mean and they've really helped to cast Soren in a very negative light for me.

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34 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

The whole "she's a heron branded" is just an excuse for why she suddenly doesn't have her major strategic trump card, especially since the herons themselves didn't suffer any adverse effects until much later on.

From PoR in Chapter 20, long before the end and thus before chaos gets that terribly bad (the bold is my emphasis): 

Spoiler

Reyson

Ike
Reyson! Could you come down here for a moment?

Reyson
What do you need?

Ike
I've got something I want to ask you about.

Reyson
If I can help, I will.

Ike
Your... Your ancestors............

Ike
Forget it. It's nothing.

Reyson
What? Is something wrong?

Ike
I apologize. Please let it go. 

Reyson
It seems like something important has happened, but if you do not want to discuss it, that is your right.However, if this weren't a battlefield, your secret might not be safe. Please take care in the future.

Ike
What do you mean?

Reyson
We of the heron clan...If we choose to, we can read the thoughts of others.

Ike
Seriously?

Reyson
However, this power is only available to us in a calm and peaceful environment.Here, in this desperate maelstrom of chaotic emotion, it avails me not. Energy here is warped and distorted.

Ike
You know, now that you mention it...Reyson, are you feeling sick?

Reyson
...

Ike
You're so pale that it's hard to tell, but I think your face looks more wan than usual.

Reyson
Pay it no mind. I'm...fine. [ellipse clearly means he's not]

Ike
You've got nothing to prove. Why don't you stay off the battlefield for a while?

Reyson
Ike! I'm fine, I promise. Please, do not give me special treatment.

Ike
As far as giving you special treatment goes, I don't really have a choice.I promised King Phoenicis I wouldn't push you too hard.If anything were to happen to you, I'd be at war with Daein and the
bird clans at the same time!

Reyson
...I see.I came to repay my debt, but I'm really just being a burden.

Ike
That was not my intention. Hold on a moment! Who said anything about you being a burden?

Reyson
I cannot engage in combat, so I'm nothing more than an obstacle in the field.

Ike
Reyson, no! That's absurd! Don't you understand how useful your abilities are?No one else can do the things that you can. You're irreplaceable.So if you're not feeling well and try to do too much, you may not be there when we really need you.

Reyson
I'm of use to you, then? 

Ike
That's what I've been trying to tell you. We depend on you, and that's why I need to make sure you stay healthy. 

Reyson
In that case... I wouldn't mind taking a short break.But you can call me anytime. I'll come right away.

 

37 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

and he's somehow the secret heir to Goldoa and Daein and no one has a problem with this but they give Micaiah pure hell over being the secret Apostle of Begnion.

Who does? The people who just don't like Micaiah at all? I'm not one of them, so I don't. Micaiah haters exist, like Ike haters and Soren haters, and haters of pretty much any and all characters with popularity in FE.

 

38 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

but it didn't actually effect her until she started fighting Soren and Ike, and despite there being no real battles between then and being forced into conflict she was somehow still suffering from it?

That part of Begnion was rife with chaos from all the prior battles in P3, chaos can endure for a while after fighting is done. If chaos didn't endure beyond the immediate battle, how would Lehran's Medallion ever break from chaos?

 

39 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I also have one other confession. I feel like a big part of the reason I dislike Soren so much are shippers. Not all of them obviously, but some of them are downright mean and they've really helped to cast Soren in a very negative light for me.

Ignore shippers. I actually don't ship Soren with Ike, since we have no idea if he actually has sexual thoughts of Ike or sees himself as gay.

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I find Soren to basically be the brains side of the Greil Mercenaries in the same way Ike, Titania and Mist have their own roles. He's there to give strategies and give out the most effective solutions, and while he tends to fluctuate in likability, he never falters in his results. I also think that while he is an asshole, he does have a fairly good character arc across both games and has some good interactions despite certain infamous moments. I feel he's at his best when complimenting others, and for that I like him a lot.

Additionally, he's also quite the killer mage, so I tend to use him a lot in RD and when I don't want to just lol cav PoR.

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22 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

From PoR in Chapter 20, long before the end and thus before chaos gets that terribly bad (the bold is my emphasis): 

  Reveal hidden contents

Reyson

Ike
Reyson! Could you come down here for a moment?

Reyson
What do you need?

Ike
I've got something I want to ask you about.

Reyson
If I can help, I will.

Ike
Your... Your ancestors............

Ike
Forget it. It's nothing.

Reyson
What? Is something wrong?

Ike
I apologize. Please let it go. 

Reyson
It seems like something important has happened, but if you do not want to discuss it, that is your right.However, if this weren't a battlefield, your secret might not be safe. Please take care in the future.

Ike
What do you mean?

Reyson
We of the heron clan...If we choose to, we can read the thoughts of others.

Ike
Seriously?

Reyson
However, this power is only available to us in a calm and peaceful environment.Here, in this desperate maelstrom of chaotic emotion, it avails me not. Energy here is warped and distorted.

Ike
You know, now that you mention it...Reyson, are you feeling sick?

Reyson
...

Ike
You're so pale that it's hard to tell, but I think your face looks more wan than usual.

Reyson
Pay it no mind. I'm...fine. [ellipse clearly means he's not]

Ike
You've got nothing to prove. Why don't you stay off the battlefield for a while?

Reyson
Ike! I'm fine, I promise. Please, do not give me special treatment.

Ike
As far as giving you special treatment goes, I don't really have a choice.I promised King Phoenicis I wouldn't push you too hard.If anything were to happen to you, I'd be at war with Daein and the
bird clans at the same time!

Reyson
...I see.I came to repay my debt, but I'm really just being a burden.

Ike
That was not my intention. Hold on a moment! Who said anything about you being a burden?

Reyson
I cannot engage in combat, so I'm nothing more than an obstacle in the field.

Ike
Reyson, no! That's absurd! Don't you understand how useful your abilities are?No one else can do the things that you can. You're irreplaceable.So if you're not feeling well and try to do too much, you may not be there when we really need you.

Reyson
I'm of use to you, then? 

Ike
That's what I've been trying to tell you. We depend on you, and that's why I need to make sure you stay healthy. 

Reyson
In that case... I wouldn't mind taking a short break.But you can call me anytime. I'll come right away.

 

Who does? The people who just don't like Micaiah at all? I'm not one of them, so I don't. Micaiah haters exist, like Ike haters and Soren haters, and haters of pretty much any and all characters with popularity in FE.

 

That part of Begnion was rife with chaos from all the prior battles in P3, chaos can endure for a while after fighting is done. If chaos didn't endure beyond the immediate battle, how would Lehran's Medallion ever break from chaos?

 

Ignore shippers. I actually don't ship Soren with Ike, since we have no idea if he actually has sexual thoughts of Ike or sees himself as gay.

Okay but that's PoR. Not RD. I've said before that I haven't played PoR and it shouldn't be assumed that it would be the same in RD. The herons show no signs of sickness in RD, not even Rafiel who is more attuned to chaos than the others it seems.

Also I've seen many people rag on Micaiah for that little detail, not just people that don't like her at all. It feels wrong to me how it was handled but it's also weirdly handled in Soren's case and no one ever brings that up.

Again, why would Micaiah alone be effected by this? Mist is known to have a strong connection to order which is why she can handle Lehran's medallion and the herons were among the army too.

As for the shippers I'm normally quite good at ignoring them but these tend to be.... loud lol. I don't really care who ships who with who but there reaches a certain level of toxic that can be hard to ignore. Of course I don't ship that pairing either but that's just me. 

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12 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Okay but that's PoR. Not RD. I've said before that I haven't played PoR and it shouldn't be assumed that it would be the same in RD. The herons show no signs of sickness in RD, not even Rafiel who is more attuned to chaos than the others it seems.

Also I've seen many people rag on Micaiah for that little detail, not just people that don't like her at all. It feels wrong to me how it was handled but it's also weirdly handled in Soren's case and no one ever brings that up.

Again, why would Micaiah alone be effected by this? Mist is known to have a strong connection to order which is why she can handle Lehran's medallion and the herons were among the army too.

As for the shippers I'm normally quite good at ignoring them but these tend to be.... loud lol. I don't really care who ships who with who but there reaches a certain level of toxic that can be hard to ignore. Of course I don't ship that pairing either but that's just me. 

I find interesting how the Chaos can affect the characters:

I mean... Micaiah is the only one that doesn't faint for overwhelming chaos; but she seems to also lost incredibly fast a proper use of her foresight even with moderate levels of chaos.

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51 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Okay but that's PoR. Not RD. I've said before that I haven't played PoR and it shouldn't be assumed that it would be the same in RD. The herons show no signs of sickness in RD, not even Rafiel who is more attuned to chaos than the others it seems.

 

Insofar as I can reason, Reyson, Leanne and Rafiel, knowing they are herons and sensitive to chaos, know how to manage their condition. Micaiah doesn't know where her powers stem from and doesn't quite know why she loses them. It doesn't help she's under massive stress commanding an army against overwhelming odds, whereas the heron trio aren't military commanders, all they have to do is sing (and on that note, Micaiah can still fight, she isn't so fragile as to lose all her abilities). And I do recall Lehran in one of his memories scenes, the one where he learns Misaha was killed and the herons are being massacred, is put under such heavy stress that the magic hiding his wings comes undone. He then utters a cough of sorts when he holds the Medallion because of the chaos.

Furthermore, note Micaiah regains her powers in Part 4, not just because Yune is inside her, but because Ashera's judgement banished the chaos, which also made it possible for Reyson to heal Renning without anyone's help, which he wouldn't be able to do under normal conditions.

All I'm doing here is looking at what I know of the Tellius world, both PoR and RD, and trying to compose a logical explanation from this. Whether that logic is truly logical and reasonable, that is for the individual to decide.

PoR should be assumed to be the same as RD by default, since are in the same world just 3 years apart, the "magical physics and biology" should operate along the same lines. If they didn't, it's bad writing barring a good reason why the magical physics changed. To assume the same magical physics in Shadow Dragon and Awakening, or Tellius and Archanea, would be problematic, due to the big time difference/being in totally different worlds.

 

3 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I mean... Micaiah is the only one that doesn't faint for overwhelming chaos; but she seems to also lost incredibly fast a proper use of her foresight even with moderate levels of chaos.

I guess it differs on an individual basis to some degree. Though do note she was in a trance of sorts when the Medallion was about to break, and had to sleep afterwards Yune says in 3-F.

As for losing foresight so fast, since Reyson loses his heart reading only two fights into the Daein campaign, I think its fair to say that the clairvoyant powers are quicker to be lost than others. If you can't read the hearts of those with two feet that quickly into a campaign, losing the ability to read time's flow itself, or whatever future sight involves in Tellius, sounds feasible.

Now Part 1- why doesn't Micaiah lose her powers until the end of that? Well I have reason to doubt the scale of Part 1's war was anywhere near as that of Part 3's. Only towards the end did the generated chaos reach a high enough point to cloud Micaiah's mind I could hypothesize.

 

58 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Again, why would Micaiah alone be effected by this? Mist is known to have a strong connection to order which is why she can handle Lehran's medallion and the herons were among the army too.

I already addressed the herons- they can manage their condition knowing it (and Micaiah could too if she knew more). Mist is Order-inclined, but not a heron at all. She is a pure Beorc, which may make her less fragile than the herons, never in PoR or RD is it suggested she is as fragile as one.

 

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Also I've seen many people rag on Micaiah for that little detail, not just people that don't like her at all. It feels wrong to me how it was handled but it's also weirdly handled in Soren's case and no one ever brings that up.

Well in Soren's case, does being the son of Almedha and Ashnard do anything for him? He quite possibly never finds out his parentage, nor does anyone else. I don't think he inherited anything from Ashnard genetically. All Almedha gave him was a Brand, longevity, and maybe some extra magical talent? But he is never made out as being that incredible a mage, barring that little P2 end scene- but every Greil Mercenary barring Rhys and Mist is a badass in that, not just Soren (and let's face it- it looked cool, like Micaiah's light burst in her opening movie clip). One could give Soren any parents, and it wouldn't make a difference so as long as he ended up Branded with the same crummy childhood ending in Gallia.

Micaiah, note I'm not arguing against her, I'm just trying to explain why people might criticize her. Micaiah has to be the True Apostle. If she wasn't, how would one explain the heart reading, the Galdrar of Release singing, the future sight, the possessing of Yune in her body, and her fragility? Her powers only make much sense as the True Apostle. Sure some of them, like Sacrifice, could be justified without being the Apostle, but several big ones would have some hurdles to jump through if she wasn't the Apostle. Micaiah has to be the Apostle, Soren doesn't have to be Almedha and Ashnard's child, thus potentially explaining the difference in opinion between the two you see.

Nitpicks could then be made relating to Micaiah. One, why the ~10 year gulf between Micaiah's birth and Sanaki's? Why did the Senate not just kill Micaiah and instead did something else when they had no qualms killing Misaha? It's a bit of a suspension of logic.

 

Two other comments. As much as I like Soren, seeing him lose, it'd hurt, but I acknowledge it would be a good thing, since it'd be more realistic- no strategist has a perfect record. Why many FE main characters (Marth, Seliph, Sigurd, Roy, Ephraim, Ike, Corrin, Alm) are lambasted by people, including myself, as being too perfect, and hence unrealistic.

The other, people like it when Micaiah loses her powers because it forces her to struggle, unlike those above FE MCs mentioned. She's a normal girl in Part 3, no formal military training, stuck fighting a far stronger enemy, for a cause that is bad, but she must fight because she has a dagger being held to her beloved home country's head (the Blood Pact). In Part 1, Micaiah's powers guide her to victory and after victory (though she does get some development in spite of this). In Part 4, she gets Ikejacked and Yunejacked, the latter due to those special powers. 

 

I've enjoyed this exchange with you. A little off-putting, but the ego deserves some smashing by contrasting opinion- being in an echo chapter breeds arrogance and ignorance- evils of the highest order. It forces me to reexamine my own opinions, sharpening and or reforming them in the process. Hopefully this futures my personal intellectual development.

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1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

The herons show no signs of sickness in RD, not even Rafiel who is more attuned to chaos than the others it seems.

I take it you didn't see that CG of an unconscious Leanne due to all the chaos at the end of Part 3 then?

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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Insofar as I can reason, Reyson, Leanne and Rafiel, knowing they are herons and sensitive to chaos, know how to manage their condition. Micaiah doesn't know where her powers stem from and doesn't quite know why she loses them. It doesn't help she's under massive stress commanding an army against overwhelming odds, whereas the heron trio aren't military commanders, all they have to do is sing (and on that note, Micaiah can still fight, she isn't so fragile as to lose all her abilities). And I do recall Lehran in one of his memories scenes, the one where he learns Misaha was killed and the herons are being massacred, is put under such heavy stress that the magic hiding his wings comes undone. He then utters a cough of sorts when he holds the Medallion because of the chaos.

Furthermore, note Micaiah regains her powers in Part 4, not just because Yune is inside her, but because Ashera's judgement banished the chaos, which also made it possible for Reyson to heal Renning without anyone's help, which he wouldn't be able to do under normal conditions.

All I'm doing here is looking at what I know of the Tellius world, both PoR and RD, and trying to compose a logical explanation from this. Whether that logic is truly logical and reasonable, that is for the individual to decide.

PoR should be assumed to be the same as RD by default, since are in the same world just 3 years apart, the "magical physics and biology" should operate along the same lines. If they didn't, it's bad writing barring a good reason why the magical physics changed. To assume the same magical physics in Shadow Dragon and Awakening, or Tellius and Archanea, would be problematic, due to the big time difference/being in totally different worlds.

 

I guess it differs on an individual basis to some degree. Though do note she was in a trance of sorts when the Medallion was about to break, and had to sleep afterwards Yune says in 3-F.

As for losing foresight so fast, since Reyson loses his heart reading only two fights into the Daein campaign, I think its fair to say that the clairvoyant powers are quicker to be lost than others. If you can't read the hearts of those with two feet that quickly into a campaign, losing the ability to read time's flow itself, or whatever future sight involves in Tellius, sounds feasible.

Now Part 1- why doesn't Micaiah lose her powers until the end of that? Well I have reason to doubt the scale of Part 1's war was anywhere near as that of Part 3's. Only towards the end did the generated chaos reach a high enough point to cloud Micaiah's mind I could hypothesize.

 

I already addressed the herons- they can manage their condition knowing it (and Micaiah could too if she knew more). Mist is Order-inclined, but not a heron at all. She is a pure Beorc, which may make her less fragile than the herons, never in PoR or RD is it suggested she is as fragile as one.

 

Well in Soren's case, does being the son of Almedha and Ashnard do anything for him? He quite possibly never finds out his parentage, nor does anyone else. I don't think he inherited anything from Ashnard genetically. All Almedha gave him was a Brand, longevity, and maybe some extra magical talent? But he is never made out as being that incredible a mage, barring that little P2 end scene- but every Greil Mercenary barring Rhys and Mist is a badass in that, not just Soren (and let's face it- it looked cool, like Micaiah's light burst in her opening movie clip). One could give Soren any parents, and it wouldn't make a difference so as long as he ended up Branded with the same crummy childhood ending in Gallia.

Micaiah, note I'm not arguing against her, I'm just trying to explain why people might criticize her. Micaiah has to be the True Apostle. If she wasn't, how would one explain the heart reading, the Galdrar of Release singing, the future sight, the possessing of Yune in her body, and her fragility? Her powers only make much sense as the True Apostle. Sure some of them, like Sacrifice, could be justified without being the Apostle, but several big ones would have some hurdles to jump through if she wasn't the Apostle. Micaiah has to be the Apostle, Soren doesn't have to be Almedha and Ashnard's child, thus potentially explaining the difference in opinion between the two you see.

Nitpicks could then be made relating to Micaiah. One, why the ~10 year gulf between Micaiah's birth and Sanaki's? Why did the Senate not just kill Micaiah and instead did something else when they had no qualms killing Misaha? It's a bit of a suspension of logic.

 

Two other comments. As much as I like Soren, seeing him lose, it'd hurt, but I acknowledge it would be a good thing, since it'd be more realistic- no strategist has a perfect record. Why many FE main characters (Marth, Seliph, Sigurd, Roy, Ephraim, Ike, Corrin, Alm) are lambasted by people, including myself, as being too perfect, and hence unrealistic.

The other, people like it when Micaiah loses her powers because it forces her to struggle, unlike those above FE MCs mentioned. She's a normal girl in Part 3, no formal military training, stuck fighting a far stronger enemy, for a cause that is bad, but she must fight because she has a dagger being held to her beloved home country's head (the Blood Pact). In Part 1, Micaiah's powers guide her to victory and after victory (though she does get some development in spite of this). In Part 4, she gets Ikejacked and Yunejacked, the latter due to those special powers. 

 

I've enjoyed this exchange with you. A little off-putting, but the ego deserves some smashing by contrasting opinion- being in an echo chapter breeds arrogance and ignorance- evils of the highest order. It forces me to reexamine my own opinions, sharpening and or reforming them in the process. Hopefully this futures my personal intellectual development.

While your point about the herons does make sense, it's not something that's actually mentioned in game. If that was the given reason I could completely understand that, but as it is it just feels like a cop-out to allow Soren to maintain his advantage over her. Soren's good but he's not "can see the future" good. Now arguing whether or not Micaiah should have had that power to begin with is an entirely different thing and I can see where people don't like her having that ability. Micaiah literally passes out at multiple points in part 3, the game citing exhaustion, but... exhaustion from what? It doesn't tell you how much time passed between Part 1 and where Daein is forced into the war at Part 3 but it can be assumed that it's been at least a few months during which time Micaiah has been helping with restoration but no fighting has been done. A few months to recover is plenty of time. I do still like your reasoning with the herons and if that was the in game reason then I would have a much easier time accepting it.

It is funny that you mention that she gets them back in Part 4... after she's no longer fighting Soren and is on the same side as him, though in different parties. I have issues with Part 4 that have nothing to do with Soren though and that will start a long rant that I'd rather not get in to xD

As for the assuming thing from PoR I phrased that wrong. What I meant was that it shouldn't be assumed that the player knows everything going on from PoR and so it should be at least touched upon in RD.... which it wasn't. It's the same world so it absolutely should work the same way, but when you have a new game, set in the same world or not, and the game focuses more heavily on something that isn't touched upon too much in the original it makes sense for it to be developed more. In RD you don't see any of these others being affected by the chaos in the same way as Micaiah, so whether it's in PoR or not, it should be shown in RD in order for it to not feel contrived or like a plot hole. If that makes sense? I'm not sure xD

Honestly I still don't see why Mist was so unaffected by all of this. It's been said that order inclined beings would be more sensitive to chaos but that could be partially because the game... just completely ignores her. Poor Mist. She's cool too.

 

As for Soren's parentage it matters because of the way it was handled. Almedha knows, which is how we learn this, and him being a dragon branded is believed to be the source of his power and strategic prowess. But it also matters because it makes his backstory seem more like a sympathy grab than it would have otherwise. Before I found out who Soren's real parents were I didn't hate his backstory, it made more sense. After? It felt more like a "boo-hoo feel sorry for him" type of situation that the other Branded don't get.

As for Micaiah, I definitely agree that her backstory should have been handled much better than it was. It was too out-of-nowhere even for me and definitely needs some retcon so I get that. As for her powers, the galdr of release is really the only thing that seems to connect with her being the True Apostle, everything else could be attributed to her being a heron branded. But her whole True Apostle thing does need to be developed better.

If Soren wasn't so "perfect" with his strategies I really wouldn't dislike him as much as I do. I also feel that FE main characters should struggle more than they do in any case, Part 1 Micaiah does suffer from this but Part 3 does her no favors by painting her as a villain. Which is just crap. Either way, Soren needs to loose some. Just that one change and I would probably find him much more tolerable and may even LIKE him. Somewhat.

In any case I've really enjoyed this too! It's nice being able to discuss this with someone that doesn't get all offended or rabid on me for not liking Soren. Thanks for the discussion! :)

 

25 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I take it you didn't see that CG of an unconscious Leanne due to all the chaos at the end of Part 3 then?

Oh you mean that ONE time when the medallion was about to break and she showed no signs of it before that at all? No I didn't forget. But that's at the end of Part 3 when everyone's effected so that doesn't really count with what I was talking about earlier.

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On 11/4/2017 at 4:41 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Unlike with Faye/Catria/Cordelia/Tharja and etc., Soren has an actual good reason to be so devoted to Ike. Ike literally saved Soren's life by giving him food when nobody else would. That was also the first act of kindness Soren ever received in life. Saviors tend to be worshipped you know. ✝️;):

If it's good enough for Hey Arnold, it's good enough for me.

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5 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

While your point about the herons does make sense, it's not something that's actually mentioned in game. If that was the given reason I could completely understand that, but as it is it just feels like a cop-out to allow Soren to maintain his advantage over her. Soren's good but he's not "can see the future" good. Now arguing whether or not Micaiah should have had that power to begin with is an entirely different thing and I can see where people don't like her having that ability. Micaiah literally passes out at multiple points in part 3, the game citing exhaustion, but... exhaustion from what? It doesn't tell you how much time passed between Part 1 and where Daein is forced into the war at Part 3 but it can be assumed that it's been at least a few months during which time Micaiah has been helping with restoration but no fighting has been done. A few months to recover is plenty of time. I do still like your reasoning with the herons and if that was the in game reason then I would have a much easier time accepting it.

I'm too lazy to look up the entire script of RD.  However, I'll rattle off the bits I do remember:

- The effects of chaos are shown throughout 3-F.  Ranulf mentions it first, then Kurthnaga - but by the time the latter opens his mouth, it's well into the battle.  Soren's part dragon, and if Kurth is any indication, it'll take a while before it affects him.  Micaiah's part heron, which is important because. . .

- At the end of 4-5, Reyson mentions the following:

Quote

“Usually, that’s true. Right now, however, Ashera’s awakening has infused the world with order; I’ve never felt stronger. What’s more, Lord Renning’s condition seems less severe than a true Feral One. I think I can do this.”

Herons are strongest when order is present.

And from Yune in 4-P:

Quote

“Hmmm…”dark god.” “Dark god”… No, I’m pretty sure I’m not one of those. I am neither holy nor base, neither angel nor devil. I am…freedom. Chaos. Transformation. Future. Mystery. I am Yune.”

“You’ve got it all wrong, little meatling. Ashera is neither kind nor loving to the beings of this world. Neither is she holy nor base, angel nor devil. She is…restriction. Order. Stability. Past. Certainty. Restraint. She is Ashera.”

Yune and Ashera are opposites.  Thus, when Yune's power reigns, herons will be in for a bad time.

So while it's mentioned backwards (and probably somewhere in PoR, but I don't feel like digging up all the medallion stuff), the game talks about how herons and order are related.

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For me I like Soren because,

1) I like his design

2) He's a better mage than Illyanna- yeah, I know that's not saying much

3) His promotion looks awesome and really comfortable to wear

4) I don't have Tormod or Calille 

5) I don't think he could be pushed around like Pelleas does. (What I mean is if Soren had been leading Daein and was being blackmailed like Pelleas was I do not think Soren would have gotten pushed around half as much or as easily as Pelleas was) P.S. I like Pelleas but he gets pushed around REALLY easily.

If I were to pick a favourite mage from Radiant Dawn it would probably be either Tormod or Calille because Soren can get a bit much at times.

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Most people have already spoke at length regarding Soren's character (I especially loved that Reddit post btw) so I'm not going to address that in depth.  
I personally love Soren for my own personal development as a person.  I've played Path of Radiance (and Radiant Dawn) since it came to the States and at the time I was 13 years old and was still growing my opinions and beliefs. Over the past 12 years my stances toward him have changed simply because of maturing.

During my first playthrough at 13 years old I hated him. He was mean and nasty and I didn't like how he made the princess cry.

On my second playthrough mere weeks later my brother convinced me to try him out since Soren is a good unit. This is when I read his supports with Ike and I changed my mind. I felt his racism and nastiness was justified from his hardships. I felt this way a long time.

Years later as an 18 year old in college I decided NO! No it is NOT okay to take your anger out against people who did not earn it! Soren, you are a prick! Yes your childhood sucked, but that is no right to take it out on people who never hurt you!

Now I'm 25 and while it's still never okay to be a racist, being in the workforce has made me love Soren's douchbaggery.  He'd be great in retail. I struggle with confrontation so I often have to channel my "inner staff officer" when dealing with difficult personnel, customers, or solicitors. I'm totally on board with his logical assholery because sometimes you need a touch of snarkiness and blunt truth to get crap done. Soren obviously is a bit in the extreme, but his dialogue means more and is more enjoyable to me now more than ever. May we both continue to grow and learn.

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17 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'm too lazy to look up the entire script of RD.  However, I'll rattle off the bits I do remember:

- The effects of chaos are shown throughout 3-F.  Ranulf mentions it first, then Kurthnaga - but by the time the latter opens his mouth, it's well into the battle.  Soren's part dragon, and if Kurth is any indication, it'll take a while before it affects him.  Micaiah's part heron, which is important because. . .

- At the end of 4-5, Reyson mentions the following:

Herons are strongest when order is present.

And from Yune in 4-P:

Yune and Ashera are opposites.  Thus, when Yune's power reigns, herons will be in for a bad time.

So while it's mentioned backwards (and probably somewhere in PoR, but I don't feel like digging up all the medallion stuff), the game talks about how herons and order are related.

While I do get what you're saying here, it occurs after the point that I'm referring to in the game. By that point the medallion is breaking so it would be no question as to why everyone is effected by the chaos. If it's going to be such a big deal that Micaiah looses her foresight much earlier than that point in the game, it needs to be mentioned and show effects on other order-oriented characters.

9 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

For me I like Soren because,

1) I like his design

2) He's a better mage than Illyanna- yeah, I know that's not saying much

3) His promotion looks awesome and really comfortable to wear

4) I don't have Tormod or Calille 

5) I don't think he could be pushed around like Pelleas does. (What I mean is if Soren had been leading Daein and was being blackmailed like Pelleas was I do not think Soren would have gotten pushed around half as much or as easily as Pelleas was) P.S. I like Pelleas but he gets pushed around REALLY easily.

If I were to pick a favourite mage from Radiant Dawn it would probably be either Tormod or Calille because Soren can get a bit much at times.

Those are all entirely fair and I completely get that. I do like his PoR design better than his RD design oddly enough... but I digress. I doubt Soren would get himself into the situation that Pelleas did in the first place and that's an issue that I really have with Soren: he's too perfect in everything except his general attitude.

As for your favorite mages I'd personally give it to Callil if only because she's around longer. I do adore Tormod though.

1 hour ago, BrandedCharmer93 said:

Most people have already spoke at length regarding Soren's character (I especially loved that Reddit post btw) so I'm not going to address that in depth.  
I personally love Soren for my own personal development as a person.  I've played Path of Radiance (and Radiant Dawn) since it came to the States and at the time I was 13 years old and was still growing my opinions and beliefs. Over the past 12 years my stances toward him have changed simply because of maturing.

During my first playthrough at 13 years old I hated him. He was mean and nasty and I didn't like how he made the princess cry.

On my second playthrough mere weeks later my brother convinced me to try him out since Soren is a good unit. This is when I read his supports with Ike and I changed my mind. I felt his racism and nastiness was justified from his hardships. I felt this way a long time.

Years later as an 18 year old in college I decided NO! No it is NOT okay to take your anger out against people who did not earn it! Soren, you are a prick! Yes your childhood sucked, but that is no right to take it out on people who never hurt you!

Now I'm 25 and while it's still never okay to be a racist, being in the workforce has made me love Soren's douchbaggery.  He'd be great in retail. I struggle with confrontation so I often have to channel my "inner staff officer" when dealing with difficult personnel, customers, or solicitors. I'm totally on board with his logical assholery because sometimes you need a touch of snarkiness and blunt truth to get crap done. Soren obviously is a bit in the extreme, but his dialogue means more and is more enjoyable to me now more than ever. May we both continue to grow and learn.

This is perfectly understandable and thank you for sharing! :) It's always nice when a character has such an effect on someone and I enjoy hearing things like this.

To be honest Soren would probably get himself fired working retail, but I would love to have a recording of it. I was about the same age as you when I first played RD and I didn't like him as soon as he came on screen. For me that opinion has never changed, though I do try to work harder to understand why others would like him so much. I tried to use him for a few playthroughs despite disliking his personality but I guess I got messed over by RNG because I never had a good Soren. Not once. Eventually I just gave up on using him.

"May we both continue to grow and learn" is my favorite thing to happen on this thread and thank you so much for sharing!

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18 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

While I do get what you're saying here, it occurs after the point that I'm referring to in the game. By that point the medallion is breaking so it would be no question as to why everyone is effected by the chaos. If it's going to be such a big deal that Micaiah looses her foresight much earlier than that point in the game, it needs to be mentioned and show effects on other order-oriented characters.

We don't learn that Micaiah is a heron until the game is almost over.

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19 hours ago, eclipse said:

We don't learn that Micaiah is a heron until the game is almost over.

No we don't and that's fine. What we do know is that she's order-oriented and for some reason she's the only one shown that the chaos is effecting strongly that early on.

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On 11/1/2017 at 4:17 AM, Intercopter said:

I never saw Soren as an absolute dick, I saw him as a pragmatist. Aside from a few isolated occasions where he lets his emotions get the better of him, (a la chapter 8,) Soren demonstrates that he makes his decisions based purely on the well-being of the Greil Mercenaries, not committing to anything unless the company can benefit from it.

Soren's pragmatism is most heavily demonstrated in the beginning of Chapter 5 in Path of Radiance--while Shinon wants to side with Daein purely so he doesn't have to step foot in Gallia, Soren does so because Daein was winning, and because he believes that fighting them is foolish.

What I'm getting at is that people like Soren because he's an amoral character surrounded by a morally-driven party, and that dynamic is fun to watch.

This, especially the last paragraph. Soren is a unique character, particularly when surrounded by honorable, heroic types.

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But he is never made out as being that incredible a mage

According to his B support with Ike in PoR, yes he was.

Soren: When I was about four, a nearby sage came by and asked to take me in. He said I possessed rare magical talent... When the sage died two years later, I had acquired much magical skill. Perhaps too much for a child of my age.

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On 11/9/2017 at 3:53 PM, Paper Jam said:

 

According to his B support with Ike in PoR, yes he was.

 

And it's not even so much that he's considered to be a great mage (I always had horrid luck with him in my RD playthroughs, I eventually gave up on him), it's more his role as strategist. The guy never has a strategy that doesn't work by fault of his own. Never. Not once through all of RD does Soren make a strategy that doesn't work because he messed up. If he messed up a few times and admitted those faults and tried to do better he'd be a far better character and I'd probably like him!

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21 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

And it's not even so much that he's considered to be a great mage (I always had horrid luck with him in my RD playthroughs, I eventually gave up on him), it's more his role as strategist. The guy never has a strategy that doesn't work by fault of his own. Never. Not once through all of RD does Soren make a strategy that doesn't work because he messed up. If he messed up a few times and admitted those faults and tried to do better he'd be a far better character and I'd probably like him!

The only mess up (that didn't actually happen) is in PoR where he advises Greil to turn the princess over to Daein for sake of putting Daein in the Greil Merc's debt. It seems sound logic at the time, but then in Port Toha Daein makes slaves out of some of the townsmen for betraying their princess (by offering info on her whereabouts). Had they followed Soren's advice back then who knows what would have befallen the Mercs? But otherwise yeah, you're right lol.

-Edit- I just remembered the time when the Crimean army went to take on Nevassa and waltzed right into an obvious trap. Everyone screaming and panicking, Ike asks:

Ike: "Soren! Is this an enemy trap?!"

Soren: "... It could be..."

Dude, the castle gates were literally left open and no guards were to be seen. It was so obviously a trap. If I didn't know better I'd call Soren the mole for not objecting.

Edited by BrandedCharmer93

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On 11/12/2017 at 4:43 PM, BrandedCharmer93 said:

The only mess up (that didn't actually happen) is in PoR where he advises Greil to turn the princess over to Daein for sake of putting Daein in the Greil Merc's debt. It seems sound logic at the time, but then in Port Toha Daein makes slaves out of some of the townsmen for betraying their princess (by offering info on her whereabouts). Had they followed Soren's advice back then who knows what would have befallen the Mercs? But otherwise yeah, you're right lol.

-Edit- I just remembered the time when the Crimean army went to take on Nevassa and waltzed right into an obvious trap. Everyone screaming and panicking, Ike asks:

Ike: "Soren! Is this an enemy trap?!"

Soren: "... It could be..."

Dude, the castle gates were literally left open and no guards were to be seen. It was so obviously a trap. If I didn't know better I'd call Soren the mole for not objecting.

Actually that reminds me of something everyone seems to forget: the Crimean people are racist too! It's not just the Daein people. Remember when the people all ganged up on Ranulf just for being a laguz? Or how about when Ludveck was making his bid and people were going to side with him purely because Elincia wanted good relations with Gallia?

Anyway, I haven't gotten that far in my PoR playthrough yet but honestly the way they phrased that Soren was neither right or wrong (good going though pal).

I will say though that the way Ike handles him in PoR is a bit, not much, but a bit better. Of course it still always gets excused as Soren just being Soren but at least his mouth does get called out.

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2 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Actually that reminds me of something everyone seems to forget: the Crimean people are racist too! It's not just the Daein people. Remember when the people all ganged up on Ranulf just for being a laguz? Or how about when Ludveck was making his bid and people were going to side with him purely because Elincia wanted good relations with Gallia?

Anyway, I haven't gotten that far in my PoR playthrough yet but honestly the way they phrased that Soren was neither right or wrong (good going though pal).

I will say though that the way Ike handles him in PoR is a bit, not much, but a bit better. Of course it still always gets excused as Soren just being Soren but at least his mouth does get called out.

If anyone actually forgets about Crimea being racist it's on them, because the game makes it VERY clear that most of the populace in all countries is racist (except for maybe Goldoa).

 

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By Radiant Dawn, Soren had already established a reputation as a brilliant tactician, largely due to his actions in Path of Radiance. Of course he would be called out more often in Path of Radiance than in Radiant Dawn.

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3 hours ago, BrandedCharmer93 said:

If anyone actually forgets about Crimea being racist it's on them, because the game makes it VERY clear that most of the populace in all countries is racist (except for maybe Goldoa).

 

I imagine Daein starting a war, being the country who was formed when they seceded from Begnion due to opposing the Laguz being given rights, and an education system that instills racism into their population makes everyone else looks like saints in comparison.

All countries are pretty racist, but Daein's easily the most racist.

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