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Just now, Anacybele said:

I can see this. But it's the opposite for me. I feel like Ike growing out of that obliviousness and all would be neat and even potentially amusing character development for him. :P

This. I think that would have been something interesting to go over in RD since PoR didn't seem to have opportunities for that? Also, confused and flustered Ike could be seriously funny if handled right and would help that whole character development issue he has in RD.

As for all of the Ike x Elincia stuff I can see where their shippers are coming from now for sure. Thanks for explaining it to me everyone!

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6 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

This. I think that would have been something interesting to go over in RD since PoR didn't seem to have opportunities for that? Also, confused and flustered Ike could be seriously funny if handled right and would help that whole character development issue he has in RD.

As for all of the Ike x Elincia stuff I can see where their shippers are coming from now for sure. Thanks for explaining it to me everyone!

Yep, exactly! I even wrote Ike being kinda like that in my fan A support for the two. He feels like he's making himself look like an idiot. lol

And you're welcome! Another thing I should mention that makes me ship the two, is that I think Elincia would be happiest that way. She hated being queen and never wanted to be queen. With Ike she could let Renning be king and live a simpler life. She was used to sewing, cleaning, cooking, and all the stuff she did in the royal villa, and it sounds like she was happier there than she was being a queen. If she resigned the throne to her uncle, she could marry Ike and do just that, live that simpler life. I know she loves her people and country a lot, but I'd think it'd be interesting if she decided that despite her love for them, she feels she can better serve them off the throne. It wouldn't be just for her happiness, but also for her country and people, since she's also making sure they get what she thinks is best for them.

If she stayed on the throne and Ike became her prince consort, well, she'd at least have him by her side in addition to Lucia and them to support her through all the hardships of being a queen. He might not like the lifestyle, but I imagine Ike to find people he cares about to be more important than his likes and dislikes.

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9 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I don't know if they should apologize... I mean things like this are facts of war, no matter how horrible it might be and Tellius has always struck me as a more realistic view on war despite its fantastical elements. Those should definitely be acknowledged though. Neither of them have ever come across as people that like war but it's still something that should be a lesson to them both. Ike seeing that his actions did cause hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people to suffer no matter his intentions and for Micaiah to see that in her desperation she really hurt people that she didn't intend to hurt. Of course it seems like Micaiah has more... issues over her actions than Ike, she's not cut out for war I don't think. But in the end both of them were involved in wars and that needs to be acknowledged too.

Let's also not forget that Daein was clearly the enemy and was trying to start a continent wide war to revive Yune, despite being warned it would result in the destruction of everyone. Ike would not apologize for stopping the Mad King, because someone had to stop him. Furthermore, the ones that made Daein suffer afterwards was the Senate, so why should he apologize for those bastards?

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4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yep, exactly! I even wrote Ike being kinda like that in my fan A support for the two. He feels like he's making himself look like an idiot. lol

And you're welcome! Another thing I should mention that makes me ship the two, is that I think Elincia would be happiest that way. She hated being queen and never wanted to be queen. With Ike she could let Renning be king and live a simpler life. She was used to sewing, cleaning, cooking, and all the stuff she did in the royal villa, and it sounds like she was happier there than she was being a queen. If she resigned the throne to her uncle, she could marry Ike and do just that, live that simpler life. I know she loves her people and country a lot, but I'd think it'd be interesting if she decided that despite her love for them, she feels she can better serve them off the throne. It wouldn't be just for her happiness, but also for her country and people, since she's also making sure they get what she thinks is best for them.

If she stayed on the throne and Ike became her prince consort, well, she'd at least have him by her side to support her through all the hardships of being a queen. He might not like the lifestyle, but I imagine Ike to find people he cares about to be more important than his likes and dislikes.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding. I still have to give the last chapter of your fic a read. 

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3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yep, exactly! I even wrote Ike being kinda like that in my fan A support for the two. He feels like he's making himself look like an idiot. lol

And you're welcome! Another thing I should mention that makes me ship the two, is that I think Elincia would be happiest that way. She hated being queen and never wanted to be queen. With Ike she could let Renning be king and live a simpler life. She was used to sewing, cleaning, cooking, and all the stuff she did in the royal villa, and it sounds like she was happier there than she was being a queen. If she resigned the throne to her uncle, she could marry Ike and do just that, live that simpler life. I know she loves her people and country a lot, but I'd think it'd be interesting if she decided that despite her love for them, she feels she can better serve them off the throne. It wouldn't be just for her happiness, but also for her country and people, since she's also making sure they get what she thinks is best for them.

If she stayed on the throne and Ike became her prince consort, well, she'd at least have him by her side in addition to Lucia and them to support her through all the hardships of being a queen. He might not like the lifestyle, but I imagine Ike to find people he cares about to be more important than his likes and dislikes.

I can see that. I haven't played PoR (my net stinks so emulators and playthroughs are a no for me) so I never really got that feeling from Elincia but if that's how she was in PoR then I can definitely see that. I think about the same for Micaiah. She was used to living her whole life in solitude and was then just suddenly thrust to the forefront of a country and war. Besides I didn't like Ike's ending anyway, why would he just leave Mist and everyone else behind?

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let's also not forget that Daein was clearly the enemy and was trying to start a continent wide war to revive Yune, despite being warned it would result in the destruction of everyone. Ike would not apologize for stopping the Mad King, because someone had to stop him. Furthermore, the ones that made Daein suffer afterwards was the Senate, so why should he apologize for those bastards?

I already said he shouldn't necessarily apologize and he definitely shouldn't apologize for what Begnion did. But the innocent population had nothing to do with Ashnard and even if they were racists that doesn't mean they should be subjected to the horrors the Senate inflicted on them. Ashnard should have been stopped but it seems like Ike and Elincia don't understand the consequences of handing Daein over to Begnion to begin with and that should be addressed. Of course Crimea couldn't sustain Daein so that's understandable but what happened is just never addressed by the others. It's something I think both Ike and Elincia should have to face. Not be made to feel extreme guilt over by any means, but something they should be made to face and who better to do that than Micaiah?

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18 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I actually found it interesting that Ike was oblivious to romance and sexual desires so adding pairings would "ruin" his character for me. 

I wouldn't say he was just oblivious to it all, I think he was most likely just not interested in any of it. Ike always struck as being fairly asexual, in that he just doesn't show much interest in being in a romantic relationship. And yeah, I feel forcing him into a romance with someone would kinda hurt his character, imo.

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Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I already said he shouldn't necessarily apologize and he definitely shouldn't apologize for what Begnion did. But the innocent population had nothing to do with Ashnard and even if they were racists that doesn't mean they should be subjected to the horrors the Senate inflicted on them. Ashnard should have been stopped but it seems like Ike and Elincia don't understand the consequences of handing Daein over to Begnion to begin with and that should be addressed. Of course Crimea couldn't sustain Daein so that's understandable but what happened is just never addressed by the others. It's something I think both Ike and Elincia should have to face. Not be made to feel extreme guilt over by any means, but something they should be made to face and who better to do that than Micaiah?

Only problem is that there was no choice BUT to have Begnion handle things. Crimea was still a war torn nation and their ally nation was putting their effort to help Crimea out. Begnion was the only nation left to do anything for Daein. It couldn't be helped that at that time, the Senate decided to trap Sanaki and try to take things into their own hands. The fault remains at the Senate's hands.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Only problem is that there was no choice BUT to have Begnion handle things. Crimea was still a war torn nation and their ally nation was putting their effort to help Crimea out. Begnion was the only nation left to do anything for Daein. It couldn't be helped that at that time, the Senate decided to trap Sanaki and try to take things into their own hands. The fault remains at the Senate's hands.

I said Crimea couldn't handle Daein and so them handing Daein over is understandable but it's still a direct result of their actions. The Senate is entirely to blame but Ike and Elincia never even seem to realize that Daein is being handled so horribly and that is what needs to be understood by them. Ashnard was horrible and needed to be stopped. They had to stop him. They had to hand Daein over to someone else and the Senate was horrible.

But Ike and Elincia needed to see what that did to the regular, not-at-fault people of Daein.

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Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I said Crimea couldn't handle Daein and so them handing Daein over is understandable but it's still a direct result of their actions. The Senate is entirely to blame but Ike and Elincia never even seem to realize that Daein is being handled so horribly and that is what needs to be understood by them. Ashnard was horrible and needed to be stopped. They had to stop him. They had to hand Daein over to someone else and the Senate was horrible.

But Ike and Elincia needed to see what that did to the regular, not-at-fault people of Daein.

I think Ike actually had an idea on that when there was one conversation where Jill talks to a civilian in PoR, and she declares her hatred for Crimea I believe and will vow revenge on them, which will pass to her future generations.

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15 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I can see that. I haven't played PoR (my net stinks so emulators and playthroughs are a no for me) so I never really got that feeling from Elincia but if that's how she was in PoR then I can definitely see that. I think about the same for Micaiah. She was used to living her whole life in solitude and was then just suddenly thrust to the forefront of a country and war. Besides I didn't like Ike's ending anyway, why would he just leave Mist and everyone else behind?

I hate Ike's ending too, it feels forced and out of character just to follow a common hero trope (leaving forever). Ike was all about his family and those he considered family. He wouldn't ever just abandon them. Plus, there was no explanation for why he left. It's just oh, bam, he's gone.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think Ike actually had an idea on that when there was one conversation where Jill talks to a civilian in PoR, and she declares her hatred for Crimea I believe and will vow revenge on them, which will pass to her future generations.

That was in PoR, which I haven't played, and still doesn't address the whole "Daein people were robbed and generally treated like complete crap".

Anyway this isn't what this is about and I'd be happy to discuss this in another thread at some point if you'd like! :)

Just now, Anacybele said:

I hate Ike's ending too, it feels forced and out of character just to follow a common hero trope (leaving forever). Ike was all about his family and those he considered family. He wouldn't ever just abandon them. Plus, there was no explanation for why he left. It's just oh, bam, he's gone.

Exactly! Ike's ending just feels so out of place for me and I'd love to see that changed. I can be a bit of a crack shipper myself so I will admit that I like the idea of Ike and Micaiah (because I'm not of fan of Micaiah and Sothe) and Micaiah becoming the Queen of Daein feels a bit odd to me too. I get why they did it but I think Micaiah would be happier helping her people in other ways, like how you think of Elincia.

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1 minute ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Exactly! Ike's ending just feels so out of place for me and I'd love to see that changed. I can be a bit of a crack shipper myself so I will admit that I like the idea of Ike and Micaiah (because I'm not of fan of Micaiah and Sothe) and Micaiah becoming the Queen of Daein feels a bit odd to me too. I get why they did it but I think Micaiah would be happier helping her people in other ways, like how you think of Elincia.

Yeah, maybe, but who else was there to take the Daein throne? Pelleas is dead and not actually royalty. Soren is the real prince, but he's glued to Ike. So... Yeah. Elincia at least still has her uncle. But Daein doesn't seem to have anyone else.

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29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let's also not forget that Daein was clearly the enemy and was trying to start a continent wide war to revive Yune, despite being warned it would result in the destruction of everyone. Ike would not apologize for stopping the Mad King, because someone had to stop him. Furthermore, the ones that made Daein suffer afterwards was the Senate, so why should he apologize for those bastards?

Are you forgetting that Ike handed the country over to Begnion? Not to mention invading Daein was completely pointless when liberating Crimea was the goal. Begnion has a border with Crimea so you don't need to invade Daein to get to Crimea. 

Edited by Icelerate
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1 minute ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That was in PoR, which I haven't played, and still doesn't address the whole "Daein people were robbed and generally treated like complete crap".

Anyway this isn't what this is about and I'd be happy to discuss this in another thread at some point if you'd like! :)

We can talk more about it in a PM if you want.

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I hate Ike's ending too, it feels forced and out of character just to follow a common hero trope (leaving forever). Ike was all about his family and those he considered family. He wouldn't ever just abandon them. Plus, there was no explanation for why he left. It's just oh, bam, he's gone.

There's also something that sort of bugs me. He also leaves the Greil Mercenaries. Like, I can understand if he remains unmarried if that's him, but why would he leave the thing that his father left behind like that?

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

There's also something that sort of bugs me. He also leaves the Greil Mercenaries. Like, I can understand if he remains unmarried if that's him, but why would he leave the thing that his father left behind like that?

Yeah, he even promised Greil he'd take care of the company. Having Ike leave goes back on that promise and Ike just doesn't break big promises like that.

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1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

Are you forgetting that Ike handed the country over to Begnion? Not to mention invading Daein was completely pointless when liberating Crimea was the goal. 

They could liberate Crimea all they want, but Ashnard was the problem no matter what. Furthermore, I explained why Begnion had to be the ones to take Daein. There was no one but Begnion to take it. Crimea needed to recover and their allies were putting their efforts for that purpose. Begnion was the only remaining nation with the power and resources to take Daein.

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2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, maybe, but who else was there to take the Daein throne? Pelleas is dead and not actually royalty. Soren is the real prince, but he's glued to Ike. So... Yeah. Elincia at least still has her uncle. But Daein doesn't seem to have anyone else.

Tauroneo could be an option, he always seemed to be the more mature and leader-like of them anyway. I'm not a fan of Soren so I haven't really considered what he would do but I don't see him being a leader type. I dislike that Pelleas has to die in a first playthrough so I would personally get rid of that and just keep him King with Almedha and others advising him. 

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

They could liberate Crimea all they want, but Ashnard was the problem no matter what. Furthermore, I explained why Begnion had to be the ones to take Daein. There was no one but Begnion to take it. Crimea needed to recover and their allies were putting their efforts for that purpose. Begnion was the only remaining nation with the power and resources to take Daein.

Ashnard was in Crimea, not in Daein. The entire invasion of Daein was pointless. 

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Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Tauroneo could be an option, he always seemed to be the more mature and leader-like of them anyway. I'm not a fan of Soren so I haven't really considered what he would do but I don't see him being a leader type. I dislike that Pelleas has to die in a first playthrough so I would personally get rid of that and just keep him King with Almedha and others advising him. 

Yeah, keeping Pelleas alive could work. He'd need to improve his skills as a leader tho, since he did fall for that blood pact trap.

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My internet is having issues keeping up with this! x'D

Just now, Anacybele said:

Yeah, keeping Pelleas alive could work. He'd need to improve his skills as a leader tho, since he did fall for that blood pact trap.

I completely agree but I think Pelleas has the kind heart to make a good leader. He'd definitely need to improve but Micaiah could still be there to help along with Tauroneo and Almedha and even Nailah. Not to mention that Elincia and Sanaki could help out their new ally too!

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, and they didn't know that. They only found out after that Ashnard was there. 

I know that, but Ike still has an apology to make because he invaded a country based on misinformation and then handed the country over to an administration harsher than Ashnard's. Sure there is no reason Ike would have known better but he should still face the consequences of his actions. For example, someone can decide not to study hard for the test because they think the test material is easy yet when the test is too hard, they shouldn't get a higher mark than they deserve. 

Edited by Icelerate
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Just now, Icelerate said:

I know that, but Ike still has an apology to make because he invaded a country based on misinformation and then handed the country over to an administration harsher than Ashnard. Sure there is no reason Ike would have known better but he should still face the consequences of his actions. 

How so? For one thing, Ike was made commander of the army by them and also followed the plan that was laid out. Even if Ashnard wasn't there, Daein forces were still trying to stop them. And if I recall right, even the majority of Daein soldiers there didn't know that Ashnard had moved to Crimea. Furthermore, it couldn't be helped that the Senate had done it behind Sanaki's back and when she was finally aware and about to act, they pull back and trap her to take control over the nation. 

The fault remains with Ashnard and the Senate. Ike is aware already that his actions had consequences, but in no way was Ike in the wrong.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

How so? For one thing, Ike was made commander of the army by them and also followed the plan that was laid out. Even if Ashnard wasn't there, Daein forces were still trying to stop them. And if I recall right, even the majority of Daein soldiers there didn't know that Ashnard had moved to Crimea. Furthermore, it couldn't be helped that the Senate had done it behind Sanaki's back and when she was finally aware and about to act, they pull back and trap her to take control over the nation. 

The fault remains with Ashnard and the Senate. Ike is aware already that his actions had consequences, but in no way was Ike in the wrong.

Where did Ike show awareness that his actions had consequences in RD? Ike is also at fault because, without him, Begnion would not rule over Daein. He was the instrument used to carry out Sephiran and Lekain's plan much like how Micaiah was used as an instrument to carry out their plan in RD. I find it interesting how Sephiran's plan failed in PoR while Lekain's was successful but in RD, it was Sephiran whose plan was successful and not Lekain.  

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1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

Where did Ike show awareness that his actions had consequences in RD? Ike is also at fault because, without him, Begnion would not rule over Daein. He was the instrument used to carry out Sephiran and Lekain's plan much like how Micaiah was used as an instrument to carry out their plan in RD. I find it interesting how Sephiran's plan failed in PoR while Lekain's was successful but in RD, it was Sephiran whose plan was successful and not Lekain.  

Not in Radiant Dawn, but in Path of Radiance, Ike was present when Jill talked to a Daein civilian, who blamed the flooding on Crimea, and vowed revenge. This is already telling to Ike that his actions will result in people of Daein blaming Crimea for the actions, whether they were in the right or wrong.

Furthermore, you're again forgetting that Ashnard was the Mad King that ruled Daein. He had to be stopped no matter what, and Ashnard controlling Daein meant that Daein was their enemy nonetheless and thus Ike had to oppose them, moreso when the Black Knight is there. And again, exactly what could Ike do regarding Daein after the war? The problem is that Crimea had no power whatsoever because it was in a ruined state. The only nation with the power and resources was Begnion, and Begnion was the nation that played the large part in defeating Daein. There was no one BUT Begnion to occupy Daein. 

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