So About Micaiah

[Tolvir]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Objection!

The conclusion of Part II was a powerful scene for both Elincia and Lucia, and it was not at all invalidated just because Lucia survived. Elincia proved to herself and her subjects that she is a strong leader, and Lucia made a badass speech and showed absolute loyalty, even though she expected to die.

-----

Concerning my thoughts on Micaiah, I'd say she's one of my favorite protagonists. I'm quite fond of the Jeanne of Arc archetype, and the determination and selflessness she showed was endearing. She's like Conquest Corrin but infinitely better executed. They did stack a few too many special traits on her but it didn't affect the plot in a negative way.

For the Ike vs Micaiah rivalry, I think it's good that that you play both from Ike's perspective and hers. One of Radiant Dawns strong points is showing you different perspectives and how morally good people can still become enemies. I do wish Micaiah had more screen time, however.

I might be one of the few people who liked Sothe and his relationship with Micaiah. Micaiah was the reckless savior and Sothe the cautious realist. Later, Micaiah becomes shackled with pragmatic concerns and it's Sothe who has to slap some morality into her. I thought Sothe's protectiveness was endearing rather than controlling or weird. They were separated once and rely on each other more than anyone else. Of course Sothe is protective. I'll even buy their potential to become romantic as their relationship is ambiguously described by Sothe in PoR.

I dont remember making that comment about Lucia. I fully agree, I really liked the entirety of Part 2, one of my favorite parts in the game.

I agree that playing both perspectives is good, I just think that the DB could have gained a bit from a few more maps, both for gameplay and story reasons.

I will say I dont mind the Sothe and Micaiah relationship. I should kind of rephrase what I said, as I dont find it as much silly, but in a way kind of forced at times. But that can be as much due to the lack of time the DB receives as a whole rather than them forcing a relationship. I just think that another member of the DB really needed to be important as well, especially Nolan considering he is supposed to be the leader of the Dawn Brigade, yet has maybe 5 lines in total across the entire game. I never minded Sothe's protective nature, as I thought it made sense considering their situation. His entire reasoning for sneaking onto the ship in PoR is pretty much to get to Micaiah. They are definitely close, I just think the game could have really done a better job with establishing that in RD, which again can be due to the fact that they get so little time compared to everyone else.

And agreed on Micaiah, she is by far one of my favorite lords in the series. I just wish she got a bit more recognition, placing as high as she did in CYL was nice, but outside of that I would almost say she sits alongside Leif as one of FE's forgotten protagonists.

[Icelerate]

I think that in chapter 3-6, there should be a formal declaration of war before Micaiah ambushes because from what I remember, the Laguz Alliance doesn't even know Daein is now at war with the LA. That strikes as cowardly because you can't ambush someone when you're not at war with someone. 

Also in chapter 3-12 after pouring the oil, I think Micaiah should have ordered the Apostle's army to retreat before giving the order to light them on fire. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I think that in chapter 3-6, there should be a formal declaration of war before Micaiah ambushes because from what I remember, the Laguz Alliance doesn't even know Daein is now at war with the LA. That strikes as cowardly because you can't ambush someone when you're not at war with someone. 

Also in chapter 3-12 after pouring the oil, I think Micaiah should have ordered the Apostle's army to retreat before giving the order to light them on fire. 

As great as that would be... that's not how war usually works. There's generally an attack by one side or the other before war is officially declared. In this case, Micaiah and Daein struck first at the behest (read: forcing) of the Senate. Announcing that you're going to attack someone generally makes an ambush not very effective.

As for chapter 3-12 while that would have been nice the Senate wasn't interested in Sanaki's army retreating. An order for surrender would have probably worked better but in all honesty what is the likelihood of that happening?

6 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I dont remember making that comment about Lucia. I fully agree, I really liked the entirety of Part 2, one of my favorite parts in the game.

I agree that playing both perspectives is good, I just think that the DB could have gained a bit from a few more maps, both for gameplay and story reasons.

I will say I dont mind the Sothe and Micaiah relationship. I should kind of rephrase what I said, as I dont find it as much silly, but in a way kind of forced at times. But that can be as much due to the lack of time the DB receives as a whole rather than them forcing a relationship. I just think that another member of the DB really needed to be important as well, especially Nolan considering he is supposed to be the leader of the Dawn Brigade, yet has maybe 5 lines in total across the entire game. I never minded Sothe's protective nature, as I thought it made sense considering their situation. His entire reasoning for sneaking onto the ship in PoR is pretty much to get to Micaiah. They are definitely close, I just think the game could have really done a better job with establishing that in RD, which again can be due to the fact that they get so little time compared to everyone else.

And agreed on Micaiah, she is by far one of my favorite lords in the series. I just wish she got a bit more recognition, placing as high as she did in CYL was nice, but outside of that I would almost say she sits alongside Leif as one of FE's forgotten protagonists.

While showing both sides is great (and I covered this some in my general outline of a rewrite for the game), the GMs got too much focus at the cost of Micaiah and the DB not getting anywhere near enough outside of Part 1.

I like Nolan. He should have more presence but not to the point of becoming the protagonist. Nolan needed to show more of a leadership role than he did and then have Micaiah slowly grow into her own as a leader, while still taking the advice of the far more experienced Nolan. As for Sothe I don't mind his nature so much and his relationship with Micaiah is great and understandable for what it is, I just don't like them ending up married. But that's just me.

Also yay! More people that like Micaiah! It really seems like everyone just... forgets about her. I mean she placed in the top ten on the CYL and still it's like IS is just not mentioning RD (outside of one mention in Warriors but seriously). Micaiah remains my favorite lord.

[Icelerate]

2 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

As great as that would be... that's not how war usually works. There's generally an attack by one side or the other before war is officially declared. In this case, Micaiah and Daein struck first at the behest (read: forcing) of the Senate. Announcing that you're going to attack someone generally makes an ambush not very effective.

As for chapter 3-12 while that would have been nice the Senate wasn't interested in Sanaki's army retreating. An order for surrender would have probably worked better but in all honesty what is the likelihood of that happening?

1

But I'm pretty sure whenever a country starts a war, they make an official declaration. Though I guess it is Pelleas' responsibility to declare war considering Micaiah is the general who can't declare war. 

Even when there was a temporary ceasefire, the Senate didn't invoke the curse. They'd be foolish to as long as Daein didn't betray them. The Senate would lose Daein as a useful tool if they invoked the blood pact. 

Well, Tibarn and Ike ordered Micaiah to desist before taking action so it makes Micaiah look more brutal in comparison to those two even though she's supposed to be the more empathetic one. 

[RedRob]

14 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

But I'm pretty sure whenever a country starts a war, they make an official declaration. Though I guess it is Pelleas' responsibility to declare war considering Micaiah is the general who can't declare war.

Dude, there's no reason for a fantasy world to follow real-world standards when it comes to waging war. And even if it did, it's not like everyone going to follow them all the time.

[ping]

4 hours ago, RedRob said:

real-world standards

real-world modern standards, no less.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

A big difference too is that Micaiah is in a really bad situation that Ike and Tibarn aren't in. They have the option to show more empathy, to be gentler (although one can argue Tibarn's methods with threatening to kill Sothe were just as bad as Micaiah's which is something people don't usually mention because he's Tibarn), whereas Micaiah has the destruction of her whole country to worry about and the knowledge that if it even appears that she's disobeying the Senate that's the end. The Senate doesn't care about Daein. Daein is just a nuisance to them that can be exploited.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

A big difference too is that Micaiah is in a really bad situation that Ike and Tibarn aren't in. They have the option to show more empathy, to be gentler (although one can argue Tibarn's methods with threatening to kill Sothe were just as bad as Micaiah's which is something people don't usually mention because he's Tibarn), whereas Micaiah has the destruction of her whole country to worry about and the knowledge that if it even appears that she's disobeying the Senate that's the end. The Senate doesn't care about Daein. Daein is just a nuisance to them that can be exploited.

I'll be honest, the issue with Micaiah being forced to fight for Begnion is just handled too poorly. The entire case here is because of the Blood Contract, a plot device that has no explanation on how it works and when it was created. I get why Micaiah had to fight for Bengion, and ultimately it was to bring in the entire continent to the war. Because the biggest factor that was needed is the dragons to also be involved to further spread the chaos, and Kurthnaga being the Prince of the Dragons makes him a large factor. And also to bring in the other laguz like the wolf as well. Ultimately, its a state of chaos where all sides needed to be participating.

But by bringing Micaiah here, she becomes the bad guy, and she gets blamed for a lot of the issues. The fact that she has to resort to using downright cruel tactics to win just paints her in a worse picture. This is one of the reasons why she's so disliked. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll be honest, the issue with Micaiah being forced to fight for Begnion is just handled too poorly. The entire case here is because of the Blood Contract, a plot device that has no explanation on how it works and when it was created. I get why Micaiah had to fight for Bengion, and ultimately it was to bring in the entire continent to the war. Because the biggest factor that was needed is the dragons to also be involved to further spread the chaos, and Kurthnaga being the Prince of the Dragons makes him a large factor. And also to bring in the other laguz like the wolf as well. Ultimately, its a state of chaos where all sides needed to be participating.

But by bringing Micaiah here, she becomes the bad guy, and she gets blamed for a lot of the issues. The fact that she has to resort to using downright cruel tactics to win just paints her in a worse picture. This is one of the reasons why she's so disliked. 

Oh that's definitely true and I personally feel that it's not a very good criticism of her. Micaiah handles the whole situation - as badly executed as it is - in a very realistic way. She's been forced against the literal hero of Tellius and the Apostle, not to mention a couple of the Laguz rulers and because of that she's painted as a villain, but in all honesty who would really handle it differently? Fight or watch the blood pact destroy her people. Those were her only options and she hated the choices she had to make, said as much in her conversations, but by putting the focus on Ike and putting her against him, it painted her in a villainous light instead of a more sympathetic and desperate one.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Oh that's definitely true and I personally feel that it's not a very good criticism of her. Micaiah handles the whole situation - as badly executed as it is - in a very realistic way. She's been forced against the literal hero of Tellius and the Apostle, not to mention a couple of the Laguz rulers and because of that she's painted as a villain, but in all honesty who would really handle it differently? Fight or watch the blood pact destroy her people. Those were her only options and she hated the choices she had to make, said as much in her conversations, but by putting the focus on Ike and putting her against him, it painted her in a villainous light instead of a more sympathetic and desperate one.

Precisely. She had to go against IKE. The one that is known as the hero of the Tellius series, and Ike gets center stage in part 4, being the one to strike Ashera down. He remains as the undisputed hero and thus Micaiah going against him only serves to say that she's the bad person. It's like how Eirika gets shit on for giving the Sacred Stone to the demon king because the demon king was possessing her dear friend, which in turn lets Ephraim get away with lot of Gary Stu acts because he's the badass that tries to stop the villain. 

I get her crisis, and it is very realistic. But had there been a chance to remake RD, I would prefer if the blood contract could be removed and there be another reason she's forced to fight. Or hell, if it is still for the contract, then maybe Micaiah also tries to form a secret alliance. Instead of being completely against Ike's forces, she tries to drop hints to them that she can't avoid fighting them, but they try to figure out how to avoid this issue. And if the contract only works around the grounds of being in Daein, then maybe she makes a plan to have every citizen of Daein evacuate, thus allowing her to slowly lessen the damages the contract can do till it gets to the point that she can stop fighting for Begnion. 

[ping]

15 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Oh that's definitely true and I personally feel that it's not a very good criticism of her. Micaiah handles the whole situation - as badly executed as it is - in a very realistic way. She's been forced against the literal hero of Tellius and the Apostle, not to mention a couple of the Laguz rulers and because of that she's painted as a villain, but in all honesty who would really handle it differently? Fight or watch the blood pact destroy her people. Those were her only options and she hated the choices she had to make, said as much in her conversations, but by putting the focus on Ike and putting her against him, it painted her in a villainous light instead of a more sympathetic and desperate one.

My issue is that Micaiah doesn't know about the blood pact initially. Her reason to follow Pelleas' orders are basically that she "knows" that he means well for Daein and that she owes him loyalty, which I find doubly frustrating since Sothe even points out the stupidity of fighting for Begnion and against Gallia. By the looks of it, Micaiah doesn't even question Pelleas about his order - I believe the game cuts away after Pelleas' big reveal ("Your targets are... Gallia's sub-humans") and turns back to Miccy when Sothe tells her that this is fucking stupid. Given how Micaiah was portrayed in part 1 (i.e. headstrong), this is her acting wildly OOC for the sake of the plot, or even just for the sake of More Drama because the writers didn't want to reveal the blood contract yet.

Edited November 10, 2017 by ping

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, ping said:

My issue is that Micaiah doesn't know about the blood pact initially. Her reason to follow Pelleas' orders are basically that she "knows" that he means well for Daein and that she owes him loyalty, which I find doubly frustrating since Sothe even points out the stupidity of fighting for Begnion and against Gallia. By the looks of it, Micaiah doesn't even question Pelleas about his order - I believe the game cuts away after Pelleas' big reveal ("Your targets are... Gallia's sub-humans") and turns back to Miccy when Sothe tells her that this is fucking stupid. Given how Micaiah was portrayed in part 1 (i.e. headstrong), this is her acting wildly OOC for the sake of the plot, or even just for the sake of More Drama because the writers didn't want to reveal the blood contract yet.

That's a very good point. She was someone that fought for Daein and disliked how Begnion was cruelly treating them, and despite finally gaining independence form the, Palleus suddenly says they are allying with Begnion, no explanations given. Micaiah not even questioning this to a great enough detail and wanting to know the truth is something that portrays her character negatively.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Precisely. She had to go against IKE. The one that is known as the hero of the Tellius series, and Ike gets center stage in part 4, being the one to strike Ashera down. He remains as the undisputed hero and thus Micaiah going against him only serves to say that she's the bad person. It's like how Eirika gets shit on for giving the Sacred Stone to the demon king because the demon king was possessing her dear friend, which in turn lets Ephraim get away with lot of Gary Stu acts because he's the badass that tries to stop the villain. 

I get her crisis, and it is very realistic. But had there been a chance to remake RD, I would prefer if the blood contract could be removed and there be another reason she's forced to fight. Or hell, if it is still for the contract, then maybe Micaiah also tries to form a secret alliance. Instead of being completely against Ike's forces, she tries to drop hints to them that she can't avoid fighting them, but they try to figure out how to avoid this issue. And if the contract only works around the grounds of being in Daein, then maybe she makes a plan to have every citizen of Daein evacuate, thus allowing her to slowly lessen the damages the contract can do till it gets to the point that she can stop fighting for Begnion. 

That exactly. Lets be real, going against the main male lord in these games is sorta like going against the Pope, it's just not a good thing for any character you're trying to paint in a sympathetic light. Honestly IS has an issue with female characters in their games, especially if they even start to take on a main role. Something always has to happen so that the male lord takes the spotlight and that's very sad to me! Ike had his game and there's nothing wrong with letting the female characters shine sometimes.

I get where you're coming from but I really think it would take something along the lines of the blood pact to get Daein to enter the war in the first place and that's why they used it. Of course the game does somewhat touch on why they don't have any other options. It's mentioned that they can't go to Ike for help because the Senate could find out and when Sothe mentions taking Micaiah and just straight up leaving it's brought up that the pact would likely kill them anyway. Which is why Sothe doesn't take Micaiah and go. To be fair it needed to be handled far better than it was but that's really not an issue with Micaiah herself, it's an issue with rushed writing and a forced plot to make Micaiah and Ike fight.

5 minutes ago, ping said:

My issue is that Micaiah doesn't know about the blood pact initially. Her reason to follow Pelleas' orders are basically that she "knows" that he means well for Daein and that she owes him loyalty, which I find doubly frustrating since Sothe even points out the stupidity of fighting for Begnion and against Gallia. By the looks of it, Micaiah doesn't even question Pelleas about his order - I believe the game cuts away after Pelleas' big reveal ("Your targets are... Gallia's sub-humans") and turns back to Miccy when Sothe tells her that this is fucking stupid. Given how Micaiah was portrayed in part 1 (i.e. headstrong), this is her acting wildly OOC for the sake of the plot, or even just for the sake of Drama because the writers didn't want to reveal the blood contract yet.

Now this I get having an issue with and I definitely agree. It would probably be better if the game showed Pelleas in a different light, because she is a general and beneath Pelleas she does have to follow his orders, but it should show her bucking him. She's a branded and doesn't have any issue with the laguz so just going in to fight them? She should have an issue with that and she's never had an issue speaking her mind to Pelleas before. It does cut away after Pelleas's big reveal as a way to move the plot forward but moving the plot forward doesn't work if there's no exposition. But again, this is more an issue with the writers wanting a sense of drama and using Micaiah to do it. This could really be easily fixed by showing more conversations which is something the game suffers from anyway.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That exactly. Lets be real, going against the main male lord in these games is sorta like going against the Pope, it's just not a good thing for any character you're trying to paint in a sympathetic light. Honestly IS has an issue with female characters in their games, especially if they even start to take on a main role. Something always has to happen so that the male lord takes the spotlight and that's very sad to me! Ike had his game and there's nothing wrong with letting the female characters shine sometimes.

I get where you're coming from but I really think it would take something along the lines of the blood pact to get Daein to enter the war in the first place and that's why they used it. Of course the game does somewhat touch on why they don't have any other options. It's mentioned that they can't go to Ike for help because the Senate could find out and when Sothe mentions taking Micaiah and just straight up leaving it's brought up that the pact would likely kill them anyway. Which is why Sothe doesn't take Micaiah and go. To be fair it needed to be handled far better than it was but that's really not an issue with Micaiah herself, it's an issue with rushed writing and a forced plot to make Micaiah and Ike fight.

Now this I get having an issue with and I definitely agree. It would probably be better if the game showed Pelleas in a different light, because she is a general and beneath Pelleas she does have to follow his orders, but it should show her bucking him. She's a branded and doesn't have any issue with the laguz so just going in to fight them? She should have an issue with that and she's never had an issue speaking her mind to Pelleas before. It does cut away after Pelleas's big reveal as a way to move the plot forward but moving the plot forward doesn't work if there's no exposition. But again, this is more an issue with the writers wanting a sense of drama and using Micaiah to do it. This could really be easily fixed by showing more conversations which is something the game suffers from anyway.

It's something that's always had the issue with. Hell, the sexism is actually even in Awakening and Fates. Awakening. Oh hey, fF!Robin is capable of being the hero... too bad she's ALSO the final villain that ruins the world. Fire Emblem Fates has F!Corrin portrayed in the Conquest route artwork. And guess what? Conquest is the morally wrong route. We'll have to see what the Switch will be like, but I have doubts that female will be the main hero without doing SOMETHING to screw themselves over. 

I don't doubt that it would have to be something huge to get Micaiah against the heroes. And like I said in the Support ones, even if Tibarn knew that Naesala had no choice but to betray them to protect his nation, Tibarn wouldn't forgive the raven at all, but just would be slightly more sympathetic. So regardless of being forced, Micaiah absolutely HAS to look bad because she has to fight for the wrong side. But I would prefer if she did show more effort in trying to resist Begnion. Here's something I would prefer: Micaiah knowing about the Blood Contract, but wants to meet with the Senate and feign ignorance. She can make some demands from the Senate in exchange for their services in assisting the war, and threatens to leave Daein and instead help the Laguz Alliance if the negotiations aren't met. 

Begnion could reveal to her the Contract and how they can kill all the citizens of Daein, but Micaiah could also threaten them in return. Like she could steel her heart and not give way, and say that she doesn't care if they destroy Daein, but warns that if they do destroy Daein, she will ensure that they die the cruelest deaths and will make sure they suffer. By not budging an inch to their threats, making threats of her own. The Senate doesn't care for Daein, but they do care for themselves, and know the exploits of Micaiah, so if they lose her and she helps the Laguz Alliance, they'll be in danger. This could show that she has some control over them, and then fights for Begnion, but at the same time, begins to use more skilled tactics to try and warn Ike and the others of the danger Daein is in.

They say that they'd be caught, but would they? If Micaiah leaves cryptic messages, maybe even leave them under veiled threats, along with Sothe, then Ike and the others would HAVE to notice something is wrong. Like Ike knows how Sothe is when he knew the guy as a kid, but then suddenly Sothe begins to say something like "sub-humans" or how he hates Ike and such. Some of these things would go over the Senate's heads, but for Ike and the others that forged a bond with Sothe, they KNOW that Sothe would never be like that, and want to learn more. Then Micaiah also plants some other things like make the be aware of the contract's existence and what it does. Maybe even have someone in Micaiah's ranks purposely betray them to join the Laguz Alliance, but have them carry something that contains information about the curse. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's something that's always had the issue with. Hell, the sexism is actually even in Awakening and Fates. Awakening. Oh hey, fF!Robin is capable of being the hero... too bad she's ALSO the final villain that ruins the world. Fire Emblem Fates has F!Corrin portrayed in the Conquest route artwork. And guess what? Conquest is the morally wrong route. We'll have to see what the Switch will be like, but I have doubts that female will be the main hero without doing SOMETHING to screw themselves over. 

I don't doubt that it would have to be something huge to get Micaiah against the heroes. And like I said in the Support ones, even if Tibarn knew that Naesala had no choice but to betray them to protect his nation, Tibarn wouldn't forgive the raven at all, but just would be slightly more sympathetic. So regardless of being forced, Micaiah absolutely HAS to look bad because she has to fight for the wrong side. But I would prefer if she did show more effort in trying to resist Begnion. Here's something I would prefer: Micaiah knowing about the Blood Contract, but wants to meet with the Senate and feign ignorance. She can make some demands from the Senate in exchange for their services in assisting the war, and threatens to leave Daein and instead help the Laguz Alliance if the negotiations aren't met. 

Begnion could reveal to her the Contract and how they can kill all the citizens of Daein, but Micaiah could also threaten them in return. Like she could steel her heart and not give way, and say that she doesn't care if they destroy Daein, but warns that if they do destroy Daein, she will ensure that they die the cruelest deaths and will make sure they suffer. By not budging an inch to their threats, making threats of her own. The Senate doesn't care for Daein, but they do care for themselves, and know the exploits of Micaiah, so if they lose her and she helps the Laguz Alliance, they'll be in danger. This could show that she has some control over them, and then fights for Begnion, but at the same time, begins to use more skilled tactics to try and warn Ike and the others of the danger Daein is in.

They say that they'd be caught, but would they? If Micaiah leaves cryptic messages, maybe even leave them under veiled threats, along with Sothe, then Ike and the others would HAVE to notice something is wrong. Like Ike knows how Sothe is when he knew the guy as a kid, but then suddenly Sothe begins to say something like "sub-humans" or how he hates Ike and such. Some of these things would go over the Senate's heads, but for Ike and the others that forged a bond with Sothe, they KNOW that Sothe would never be like that, and want to learn more. Then Micaiah also plants some other things like make the be aware of the contract's existence and what it does. Maybe even have someone in Micaiah's ranks purposely betray them to join the Laguz Alliance, but have them carry something that contains information about the curse. 

Ahhhhh sexism.... they really need to work on their female leads. Seriously. Just.... please IS, you have a pretty large female fanbase! Stop doing your female characters so much injustice!

Now this idea I like. It would show Micaiah taking on her leadership role in a way that she isn't able to in the game. I don't think she would be able to steel her heart enough to say that she doesn't care about Daein being destroyed and again there's the whole issue of them doing it anyway because they believe Micaiah has a good chance of dying before she could ever make their lives bad enough, but it's a really cool thought. If it worked out well enough it could help but I really don't want to see Ike come swooping in and saving her. Micaiah's perfectly capable of saving herself, even if Sothe doesn't want to believe it, and she should be given that chance. Not saying that she wouldn't need help but Ike shouldn't just resolve everything which, lets face it, is what would end up happening if he found out.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Ahhhhh sexism.... they really need to work on their female leads. Seriously. Just.... please IS, you have a pretty large female fanbase! Stop doing your female characters so much injustice!

Now this idea I like. It would show Micaiah taking on her leadership role in a way that she isn't able to in the game. I don't think she would be able to steel her heart enough to say that she doesn't care about Daein being destroyed and again there's the whole issue of them doing it anyway because they believe Micaiah has a good chance of dying before she could ever make their lives bad enough, but it's a really cool thought. If it worked out well enough it could help but I really don't want to see Ike come swooping in and saving her. Micaiah's perfectly capable of saving herself, even if Sothe doesn't want to believe it, and she should be given that chance. Not saying that she wouldn't need help but Ike shouldn't just resolve everything which, lets face it, is what would end up happening if he found out.

Yeah. There are several female characters that are popular and AREN'T faservice. 

True. However, here's something that would throw a bombshell on the Senate. If the curse can only affect those that are native to that country (they really didn't define just how the curse would kill people of the country, whether its from birth or some other things, but birth could work), then they cannot kill Micaiah with it, because she can reveal that she ISN'T native to Daein. It might be her home now and she is proud to call it her country, but she isn't born from Daein, and thus it means the contract would not affect her. If that's the case, that can frighten the Senate, as she is a wild card that they cannot control and thus they would have to try and negotiate her cooperation. And yeah, maybe she cannot feign calmness from this, but she has to be strong still because she knows that people like the Senate wants to grab hold of any kind of leverage to hold power over them. She's been alive long enough to know how that works, and thus the key would be that she shows no weakness, and doesn't stop with the demands. Maybe she even demands the contract in exchange for their services. 

I'm not saying that Ike would swoop in and save her, but by actively trying to get help, it shows how Micaiah is understand that this is a desperate time and she can't save the nation by herself, and personal grudge against Ike is not going to save Daein right now. If Ike learns of the Blood Contract, then the laguz, with all their knowledge, might be able to figure out a way to help. Furthermore, we also know that the Black Knight was ordered by Sephiran to protect Micaiah. If Micaiah can meet with the Black Knight midway, she can get him to help, and unlike everyone else, he actually has the easiest access to saving them, being Zelgius. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. There are several female characters that are popular and AREN'T faservice. 

True. However, here's something that would throw a bombshell on the Senate. If the curse can only affect those that are native to that country (they really didn't define just how the curse would kill people of the country, whether its from birth or some other things, but birth could work), then they cannot kill Micaiah with it, because she can reveal that she ISN'T native to Daein. It might be her home now and she is proud to call it her country, but she isn't born from Daein, and thus it means the contract would not affect her. If that's the case, that can frighten the Senate, as she is a wild card that they cannot control and thus they would have to try and negotiate her cooperation. And yeah, maybe she cannot feign calmness from this, but she has to be strong still because she knows that people like the Senate wants to grab hold of any kind of leverage to hold power over them. She's been alive long enough to know how that works, and thus the key would be that she shows no weakness, and doesn't stop with the demands. Maybe she even demands the contract in exchange for their services. 

I'm not saying that Ike would swoop in and save her, but by actively trying to get help, it shows how Micaiah is understand that this is a desperate time and she can't save the nation by herself, and personal grudge against Ike is not going to save Daein right now. If Ike learns of the Blood Contract, then the laguz, with all their knowledge, might be able to figure out a way to help. Furthermore, we also know that the Black Knight was ordered by Sephiran to protect Micaiah. If Micaiah can meet with the Black Knight midway, she can get him to help, and unlike everyone else, he actually has the easiest access to saving them, being Zelgius. 

That whole only effecting Daein natives could work... but they really didn't explain any parameters or anything and the blood pact needs to be fleshed out more - for example the magic should be something known to only two or three people - but you're right that it's a definite possibility. Micaiah joining forces with Ike and the LA could be something that would make them wary.. but I'm still not sure if it would be enough for them to bend to her demands. She could try but I don't know if it would work. The Senate is powerful and it's highly doubtful they would fear one girl, even if she is the true Apostle which they probably wouldn't know.

Now getting help from Zelgius is something I entertained for quite a while. However, Sephiran intended for the medallion to break and for that Daein had to be in the war so I don't know that Zelgius would actually help. Personally I'd like to see some more conversations between Micaiah and the BK/Zelgius but in the end his loyalty is to Sephiran. Also her personal grudge against Ike does lessen through her encounters with him, she says as much when she faces him in that hold the fort mission. I actually really like that.

However I do agree that no matter what they do it would be nice for them to show the action from Micaiah's point of view so as to keep from demonizing her against the moral paragon that is Ike.

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That whole only effecting Daein natives could work... but they really didn't explain any parameters or anything and the blood pact needs to be fleshed out more - for example the magic should be something known to only two or three people - but you're right that it's a definite possibility. Micaiah joining forces with Ike and the LA could be something that would make them wary.. but I'm still not sure if it would be enough for them to bend to her demands. She could try but I don't know if it would work. The Senate is powerful and it's highly doubtful they would fear one girl, even if she is the true Apostle which they probably wouldn't know.

Now getting help from Zelgius is something I entertained for quite a while. However, Sephiran intended for the medallion to break and for that Daein had to be in the war so I don't know that Zelgius would actually help. Personally I'd like to see some more conversations between Micaiah and the BK/Zelgius but in the end his loyalty is to Sephiran. Also her personal grudge against Ike does lessen through her encounters with him, she says as much when she faces him in that hold the fort mission. I actually really like that.

However I do agree that no matter what they do it would be nice for them to show the action from Micaiah's point of view so as to keep from demonizing her against the moral paragon that is Ike.

Ah, but here's something else that I thought of. What if, and I'm just spitballing here, we could have it that Yune knows who it was that killed Micaiah and Sanaki's grandmother, the one that the Senate did and pinned on the Herons? If Micaiah was privy to this info, then she has a very DANGEROUS weapon at her disposal. Already the Senate is having their hands tied with the war and the stability of Begnion is also tipping. If a single rumor were to be spread that the Senate was the one that truly assassinated the Apostle the people love... well there would be a riot, even worse than the one that Sephiran instigated. If Micaiah learned of this info by Yune since she is the true Apostle, then Micaiah can REALLY damage the Senate. No, not just damage, this info can very well DESTROY the Senate because the people would be furious that the Senate did that to the Apostle. That's the issue with making the Apostle so beloved or making Sanaki a figurehead. 

That is true. I would have loved if there had been more development on that area. 

Yeah. The case is that Micaiah needs to have the skills to actually make progress and not just be a foe that just causes things to go worse for the sake of the war. Of course, Micaiah and Ike need to battle it out in the end and cause the medallion to nearly break, but it would be nice if we had more active attempts at Micaiah trying to break free from Begnion's hold, instead of being completely enslaved by them pretty much. 

[NekoKnight]

On 11/9/2017 at 9:32 AM, Tolvir said:

I dont remember making that comment about Lucia. I fully agree, I really liked the entirety of Part 2, one of my favorite parts in the game.

I agree that playing both perspectives is good, I just think that the DB could have gained a bit from a few more maps, both for gameplay and story reasons.

I will say I dont mind the Sothe and Micaiah relationship. I should kind of rephrase what I said, as I dont find it as much silly, but in a way kind of forced at times. But that can be as much due to the lack of time the DB receives as a whole rather than them forcing a relationship. I just think that another member of the DB really needed to be important as well, especially Nolan considering he is supposed to be the leader of the Dawn Brigade, yet has maybe 5 lines in total across the entire game. I never minded Sothe's protective nature, as I thought it made sense considering their situation. His entire reasoning for sneaking onto the ship in PoR is pretty much to get to Micaiah. They are definitely close, I just think the game could have really done a better job with establishing that in RD, which again can be due to the fact that they get so little time compared to everyone else.

And agreed on Micaiah, she is by far one of my favorite lords in the series. I just wish she got a bit more recognition, placing as high as she did in CYL was nice, but outside of that I would almost say she sits alongside Leif as one of FE's forgotten protagonists.

The awkward moment when you somehow quote the wrong person and a conversation starts up with someone you didn't mean to talk to. That Lucia stuff was directed @Silver-Haired Maiden

If they gave the DB more screentime, I'm sure they could give Nolan more of a role. Though in Micaiah's defense, she's probably as old, if not older than Nolan, so I think she has the wisdom to lead.

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's something that's always had the issue with. Hell, the sexism is actually even in Awakening and Fates. Awakening. Oh hey, fF!Robin is capable of being the hero... too bad she's ALSO the final villain that ruins the world. Fire Emblem Fates has F!Corrin portrayed in the Conquest route artwork. And guess what? Conquest is the morally wrong route. We'll have to see what the Switch will be like, but I have doubts that female will be the main hero without doing SOMETHING to screw themselves over.

Robin isn't evil in Awakening, but a version of them becomes a vessel for Grima, presumably against their will. Also, while I consider Conquest!Corrin a villain, the game is very unambiguous in framing them as a flawless hero. I don't think Micaiah's portrayal is particularly negative. She goes against Ike, and some people in story mistake her as being malicious, but we know she's a good person. If you want an example of a unreasonably flawed female protag, I would use Celica as an example.
 

I'm going to feel like a jerk for doing this, but I don't think your suggestions for changing the RD story are very reasonable.
 

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Begnion could reveal to her the Contract and how they can kill all the citizens of Daein, but Micaiah could also threaten them in return. Like she could steel her heart and not give way, and say that she doesn't care if they destroy Daein, but warns that if they do destroy Daein, she will ensure that they die the cruelest deaths and will make sure they suffer. By not budging an inch to their threats, making threats of her own. The Senate doesn't care for Daein, but they do care for themselves, and know the exploits of Micaiah, so if they lose her and she helps the Laguz Alliance, they'll be in danger. This could show that she has some control over them, and then fights for Begnion, but at the same time, begins to use more skilled tactics to try and warn Ike and the others of the danger Daein is in.

This is silly. Begnion could call her bluff immediately and activate the blood pact until she changes her mind. Even if Daein joined the Laguz Alliance, Micaiah doesn't know how long the war could last. The blood pact that affected Kilvas went on for 100 days, and wiped out HALF the population. Wars can last years. She has no leverage here, and the Senate knows this. 

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

True. However, here's something that would throw a bombshell on the Senate. If the curse can only affect those that are native to that country (they really didn't define just how the curse would kill people of the country, whether its from birth or some other things, but birth could work), then they cannot kill Micaiah with it, because she can reveal that she ISN'T native to Daein. It might be her home now and she is proud to call it her country, but she isn't born from Daein, and thus it means the contract would not affect her. If that's the case, that can frighten the Senate, as she is a wild card that they cannot control and thus they would have to try and negotiate her cooperation.

Why would Micaiah by herself be a threat?

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ah, but here's something else that I thought of. What if, and I'm just spitballing here, we could have it that Yune knows who it was that killed Micaiah and Sanaki's grandmother, the one that the Senate did and pinned on the Herons? If Micaiah was privy to this info, then she has a very DANGEROUS weapon at her disposal. Already the Senate is having their hands tied with the war and the stability of Begnion is also tipping. If a single rumor were to be spread that the Senate was the one that truly assassinated the Apostle the people love... well there would be a riot, even worse than the one that Sephiran instigated. If Micaiah learned of this info by Yune since she is the true Apostle, then Micaiah can REALLY damage the Senate. No, not just damage, this info can very well DESTROY the Senate because the people would be furious that the Senate did that to the Apostle. That's the issue with making the Apostle so beloved or making Sanaki a figurehead. 

Why would anyone believe Micaiah even if she knew this information? Unless Yune can do a magic trick to show everyone in Begnion that Micaiah is legit, she has nothing to back up her claim. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

Robin isn't evil in Awakening, but a version of them becomes a vessel for Grima, presumably against their will. Also, while I consider Conquest!Corrin a villain, the game is very unambiguous in framing them as a flawless hero. I don't think Micaiah's portrayal is particularly negative. She goes against Ike, and some people in story mistake her as being malicious, but we know she's a good person. If you want an example of a unreasonably flawed female protag, I would use Celica as an example.
 

I'm going to feel like a jerk for doing this, but I don't think your suggestions for changing the RD story are very reasonable.
 

This is silly. Begnion could call her bluff immediately and activate the blood pact until she changes her mind. Even if Daein joined the Laguz Alliance, Micaiah doesn't know how long the war could last. The blood pact that affected Kilvas went on for 100 days, and wiped out HALF the population. Wars can last years. She has no leverage here, and the Senate knows this. 

Why would Micaiah by herself be a threat?

Why would anyone believe Micaiah even if she knew this information? Unless Yune can do a magic trick to show everyone in Begnion that Micaiah is legit, she has nothing to back up her claim. 

Yeah, but even alternate version doesn't change the fact its still Robin. So yeah. And for Corrin, I was referring to how it was F!Corrin that was depicted in the Conquest artwork. Hell, even in Warriors, F!Robin has the Nohrian Noble, while M!Corrin has Hoshidan Noble promotion gear.

You make good points on the other two, but for the case on the truth of the assassination on the Apostle, like I said, there's already unrest in Begnion. A simple rumor while the minds of the people there are unrested would easily provoke them. That's how the Senate was even able to convince the people that the herons, a group of completely peaceful laguz, murdered the Apostle. Worry, grief, anger, sadness, these emotions easily lead people to being swayed. With Sanaki not even responding to the people, a war spreading around, and then comes this rumor that the ones that assassinated the Apostle was actually the Senate? Just the rumor being told that and then the people will make their own story on how that's possible, or even put together that its true because they realize the herons were never responsible and the Senate were the ones that laid blame on them. 

It's a very viable threat if that's the case. 

[NekoKnight]

In regards to the Blood Pact situation, I think the story either needs to explain what reason a person would have to sign one or get rid of them. In the 3 instances of a blood pact being used, we never learned what the signer had to gain from it. I can understand Pelleas being dumb enough to sign one, but there was no excuse for the King of Kilvas or Ashnard's father to. It's an interesting plot device in its mechanics but we need a better excuse for the plot than "because people are dumb". 

As an alternative option to the Pelleas contract, they could instead have Lekain threaten a second invasion of Daein, promising Micaiah that this time, they won't be occupying the country, it will be a genocide of the Daein people. Micaiah would then realize that for all her efforts to liberate the country, they were only independent in name. From there the plot could go on the same.

[eclipse]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:17 AM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

As for Sacred Stones, I will say that I haven't played it myself, but I've read enough to get that Ephraim has very much overshadowed Eirika in the minds of the masses. Ephraim is the cool one and she's dumb for her choices and the same is applied to Alm and Celica. So basically, IS needs to work on their female characters... badly.

WRT Sacred Stones, my issues with Eir's route weren't with Eir.  They were with Lyon's portrayal.  He came across as a rather whiny guy, so I couldn't take him seriously.  On Ephraim's route, Lyon has a spine, which makes him a more convincing villain IMO.

For Echoes, the producers had to work with Gaiden's original story, which was written quite a while ago.  While I'm not happy with Celica's character, I can't really blame modern-day IS for that.  She's a relic of a story long past its prime.

I'm not sure what the future holds for FE female leads.  However, I'd like to see one in a similar situation as Ike - he's not particularly special because of birth (something that holds Micaiah back IMO), he got to where he is via his actions.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

As an alternative option to the Pelleas contract, they could instead have Lekain threaten a second invasion of Daein, promising Micaiah that this time, they won't be occupying the country, it will be a genocide of the Daein people. Micaiah would then realize that for all her efforts to liberate the country, they were only independent in name. From there the plot could go on the same.

I doubt that would work. Once word spreads, Daein would be even angrier at Begnion, and would outright refuse to obey. Perhaps even fight back since they'd have nothing to loose. Theatening their very existence is the least effective method to get them to cooperate with you. And with how Micaiah is devoted to Daein, she's still have her hands tied, just in a different way. And even if it was a bluff, since the Lagus Army is still in Begnion at the time, temporary truce or not, they could call the bluff since the time and effort to divert their attention to fight Daein means they'd have to almost completely ignore the Laguz, who could take the chance.

Though personally, I think this an interesting outcome as it makes the war three-way, since Daein would not be allied to the Laguz Alliance in this case, but both would be in opposition to Begnion.

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

The blood pact that affected Kilvas went on for 100 days, and wiped out HALF the population.

I just plugged in the addition (there must have been an algorithm that could let me get the answer in a minute, but I didn't check). After 100 days of an active Blood Pact, you get 5050 deaths. Given said Blood Pact was enacted on Kilvas, a small island nation composed of Laguz who probably as a result of their longer lifespans (about 210 years for Ravens I think, assumes a Beorc lives for 60) with smaller overall population and birth rate, and live purely on hunter-gathering, losing half the population sounds quite feasible.

5050 deaths for Daein though, given it's said that during 3-13 Micaiah had a meagre army of 10000, doesn't sound so worrisome. Of course, extend the war to four months (120 days) and we're now adding another 2000 souls to the death count. A year would kill Daein, which IRL would make fighting against a Blood Pact impossible. In FE though, wars end in a year tops. And how long could the Senate last if Sanaki's reveal took away half of the much vaunted Begnion Central Army, which now had to face Crimea on top of Daein? Extending it to 5 months would add about 3000 more deaths at 100+ per day, a half year would be over 13000 dead for Daein.

We don't know how large Daein's population is, but a quick look on Wikipedia puts High Middle Ages France and Italy in the 10-13 million and 18-20 million pre-Black Death range. So 13000 deaths sound bearable. If we choose to suspend the knowledge of FE ingame wars being extraordinarily short compared to actual wars fought historically, including historically ingame (there was a 46 year war in the past of Tellius which pit everyone vs. Begnion), then yes, the Blood Pact can be a HUGE threat. A five year war, to use the Crimea-Daein War of 420-425, would be pretty awful if either was BP'ed.

Just felt like doing some random logistics and such.

 

11 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Ahhhhh sexism.... they really need to work on their female leads. Seriously. Just.... please IS, you have a pretty large female fanbase! Stop doing your female characters so much injustice!

Such is true of soooooo much entertainment media. You hear it in video games, in movies, in TV, in everything really. And does anything change? Yes maybe and certainly sadly no.

 

4 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

In regards to the Blood Pact situation, I think the story either needs to explain what reason a person would have to sign one or get rid of them. In the 3 instances of a blood pact being used, we never learned what the signer had to gain from it.

Well for the one Kilvas signed, this is but a guess, but it lists Kilvas in 428 surrendering to Begnion. Perhaps it was the Blood Pact which gave Kilvas its nominal independence? But this is purely speculation with no evidence whatsoever to back it.

 

I don't mind what the Blood Pact tried to do. Namely make Daein the pawn of Begnion, it's just how it does so that is the issue. I don't mind Pelleas being weak and Micaiah going along, it's different for a change of pace and potentially quite interesting to have a MC who is subject to a feeble master. In reality, there were plenty of generals and ministers who had to serve with a big hegemonic master power in the background, and or monarchs whom they served, but really didn't want to due to their hedonism/weakness/inherited biological defects. 

To amend this, one could do something more ordinary. Just load Nevassa with Senatorial "advisors" surrounding Pelleas, accompanied by a small but ruthless defense force. Pelleas becomes the hostage of Begnion in his own land, and Micaiah, devoted to Pelleas, like a typical Camus refuses to do anything that might result in her liege's death and go against his commands. If Izuka was kept around, he could be providing strong poisons which Begnion could use if need be to kill off Daeins citizens.

 

As for Micaiah using oil and fire. The weak can't fight the strong on equal terms, tactics like oil, though repulsive to modern tastes, was fine back then and perfectly strategic and a way of actually. Soren, not to hate him like SHM does, I'm only pointing out writing hypocrisy, employs a supply camp hit in my beloved 3-3, and Tibarn planned to do the same were it not for Naesala's betrayal in 3-2. Soren also has watch guards drugged by Mist and the cat girls in 3-1.

Micaiah was justified in her use of oil (and Robin in fire ships- Valm was just too numerous, in an open battle Ylisse would lose), but the game doesn't treat it the same. Why? Probably because Sanaki wasn't fighting back and didn't want to. All she wanted to do was pass through Daein peacefully. But she did this with an army intended for fighting the Senate, and full knowledge Daein was allied to the Senate. Therefore, she really wasn't an innocent traveler passing through and Micaiah had the right to attack her.

[RedRob]

Considering we don't know the origin of Blood Pacts, as in how them as an idea even came about, It's possible it was meant to be a trick. "Here, sign this, and you get awesome powers. Thank you and bye-bye sucker!" Just something where the signer is lied to about how it works, and boom, they're boned. Basically a magical countywide scam or con of sorts.