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Espinosa

I hope this game is influenced a lot by FE Heroes

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And by that I don't mean the gacha elements and the gambling involved. 

I'd kinda like a mainline FE where hit rates and crit rates don't exist at all, and an attacker is either always hitting or never is. An FE that emphasises strategy outside the constraints of FEH's limited format with tiny maps. I believe putting more emphasis on units' skills, statistics and synergy could lead to us getting the kind of Fire Emblem that should've happened a long time ago. 

Would anybody else be happy to see some of the FEH mechanics carry over to FE Switch?

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5 minutes ago, Espinosa said:

And by that I don't mean the gacha elements and the gambling involved. 

I'd kinda like a mainline FE where hit rates and crit rates don't exist at all, and an attacker is either always hitting or never is. An FE that emphasises strategy outside the constraints of FEH's limited format with tiny maps. I believe putting more emphasis on units' skills, statistics and synergy could lead to us getting the kind of Fire Emblem that should've happened a long time ago. 

Would anybody else be happy to see some of the FEH mechanics carry over to FE Switch?

Most Fire Emblem games put focus on statistics, and more recently skills. Hit rates and Crit rates are a part of the statistics.

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I don't think that would be fun, in the long term and would only prove to make swordmasters even more useless and axes overpowered. All risk/reward would be removed in favor of a system that favors high defense and higher attack, fates' attack stats were annoyingly high and to combine that with a system that guarantees a hit would be a real pain to get through.

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Yeah, the RNG, both in stats and hit rates, is one of those things where the benefits are profound and subtle while the downsides are minor and obvious. It prevents you from being able to do the exact same strategy every single time by forcing you to adapt to unforeseen circumstances. It's definitely worth keeping in the mainline games, though Heroes is well-suited by not having it.

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6 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I don't think that would be fun, in the long term and would only prove to make swordmasters even more useless and axes overpowered. All risk/reward would be removed in favor of a system that favors high defense and higher attack, fates' attack stats were annoyingly high and to combine that with a system that guarantees a hit would be a real pain to get through.

Units' capacity to evade attacks could still be a  thing, albeit not reflected as a hit rate percentage. I'm not advocating FE Fates' or New Mystery's enemy attack power to be carried over (by the way, Fates has plenty of legitimately tanky characters like Xander and Effie), but Fates did have the defence stance mechanics. I much prefer being guaranteed to withstand an attack to relying on all manner of coin flip scenarios. Swordmasters could have an easier requirement to guarantee a block than classes associated with raw power. Other skills and mechanics outside of skills could be implemented to make classes and units unique amongst each other in addition to base stat and growth discrepancies. 

I really don't see the random factor as adding any complexity or depth to the games. It seems like it only distracts the game and the player from truly strategic playing. 

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Fire Emblem is an RPG first, and a strategy game second. Removing chance removes a LOT of what makes the series appealing to a lot.

Also, are you arguing/implying that FEH is more strategic than mainline FE? Because it's really a lot more along the lines of hardcore "Rock, paper, scissors", and it's far more of the meta game(Mostly skills and weapons) determining how well you do. If you have the right composition, you rarely have to worry about failing in FEH. There's no chance that your OP unit won't one-shot its appropriate target.

On top of this, part of strategy does involve anticipating and correcting mistakes. There really aren't many mistakes in FEH.

Edited by Slumber

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Honestly, the only thing I would like to see come from Heroes into mainline FE is the weapon triangle. Putting the PWT and MWT on top of one another would really help make a magic triangle more useful. Though, I would swap out Fire-Wind-Thunder with Anima-Light-Dark, or not, TBH, I don't mind, I just really like the WT.

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As someone who hates poorly done and misplaced RNG, I don't think a mainline Fire Emblem that gets rid of crit and avoid chances is a Fire Emblem that can live up to its full strategy potential.

I think the RNG adds a level of strategizing, like Slumber said.  The element of chance forces you to anticipate things going potentially wrong and to plan accordingly.  It's basically like a sort of tactical gambling, where you weigh your risks versus your rewards; another layer of strategy that's effectively absent in Heroes.

Heroes removes all uncertainty in favor of the meta.  It makes the games so much more objective, which also means that there's less room for the more "mediocre" characters to shine.  To me, that isn't particularly fun; I like being able to use the non-meta-defining characters.  I wanna be able to use squishy Setsuna or paper-cannon mage!Odin.  I hate games that are heavily based around a meta.

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Even Heroes has RNG. In Tempest Trials and the training tower it randomly generates what units you see, where they spawn, and even what extra skills they have. This is what makes Tempest Trials bearable (for some) to grind out. If you were to make a Fire Emblem game with no RNG whatsoever, there would be specific setups that work every time guaranteed, and that's not really strategy at all.

The idea that RNG removes strategy has been and always will be stupid. While I would like fewer RNG-based skills (Fates did a good job reducing this), the way the RNG typically works in mainline FE games is good. It's enough that a smart player can take advantage of it and usually use it in their favor, but not so manipulable that things won't occasionally go wrong, ensuring that you need backup plans and other safety precautions.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Fire Emblem is an RPG first, and a strategy game second.

I don't think such a distinction has a bearing at all on the presence of RNG elements. XCOM Enemy Unknown has more RNG elements than Fire Emblem ever did. Not only harsh hit and crit rates, but even the damage of your attacks is very randomized, as well as the class your trainees take. But it's still a white knuckle strategy game that asks players to use what's available to them. For Fire Emblem, I think the distinction is whether the game has anti-grinding incentives. Weapons that break, EXP scaling, arenas, the option to grind random encounters, whether you have access to unlimited class changing, DLC maps, etc.

More on topic, there is one thing that FEH has that I think gives it an incredible edge over mainline titles. Consistent, mass feedback. The developers of FEH know everything from what characters players use to what characters they desire (with data on which banners get the most attention). And this has resulted in them confidently introducing new mechanics, modes, and skills as if they always belonged in the game. As well as crafting some deviously difficult maps that respond directly to meta threats such as horse teams and Reinhardt. Developers of mainline Fire Emblem games would KILL to have a year's worth of player data to balance their games with. FEH doesn't have balance updates, but a new main game could, and I'm very curious if they'll go that route.

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4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I don't think such a distinction has a bearing at all on the presence of RNG elements. XCOM Enemy Unknown has more RNG elements than Fire Emblem ever did. Not only harsh hit and crit rates, but even the damage of your attacks is very randomized, as well as the class your trainees take. But it's still a white knuckle strategy game that asks players to use what's available to them. For Fire Emblem, I think the distinction is whether the game has anti-grinding incentives. Weapons that break, EXP scaling, arenas, the option to grind random encounters, whether you have access to unlimited class changing, DLC maps, etc.

More on topic, there is one thing that FEH has that I think gives it an incredible edge over mainline titles. Consistent, mass feedback. The developers of FEH know everything from what characters players use to what characters they desire (with data on which banners get the most attention). And this has resulted in them confidently introducing new mechanics, modes, and skills as if they always belonged in the game. As well as crafting some deviously difficult maps that respond directly to meta threats such as horse teams and Reinhardt. Developers of mainline Fire Emblem games would KILL to have a year's worth of player data to balance their games with. FEH doesn't have balance updates, but a new main game could, and I'm very curious if they'll go that route.

XCOM's kind of a rarity among strategy games in how RNG reliant it is. But you're right, it's a much stricter strategy game than any FE, and you're far more at the mercy of the RNG Gods in XCOM.

But a lot of strategy games are a lot less reliant on RNG than even Fire Emblem(Mostly RTS ones, but there are plenty of non-RPG TBS games like Civ that are less RNG), and the ones that are more reliant on RNG happen to be more on the RPG side, too. Generally when I think of getting RNG screwed in games, it's mostly in RPGs.

Edited by Slumber

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Yeah, going with the popular opinion here and saying that chance should stay a thing. Even though it can make us enraged, the RNG factor of the mainline FE games is a key factor in making FE what it is. It makes otherwise perfect plans have a chance of tripping up, or the occasional crazy, gutsy plan work out. That's the beauty of FE's RNG.

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The only things I want to keep from heroes is the reliability of skills. Some changes would have to be made to fit with a mainline game, sure, but I like the idea of a build-up, cool-down system with skills so they're more strategically viable than "hope luna activates this fight." Anything else I can think of (the weapon triangle being relevant, the ease of leveling up healers, fanservice done right.. for the most part) are things that the series could do anyway if the developers put their mind to it.

Fire Emblem is built around its RNG system. Units with high dodge and/or high crit rates have just as much relevance as units with solid stats, and knowing how to use them, and in the enemies hands, counter them, is the key to victory. Why in the world should such an integral part of the strategy be removed?

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The only way I'm going to accept the lack of RNG is the battles are 2d side scroll based. Imagine a normal FE with the traditional squared maps but instead of RNG pre-determined battle animations the game swaps to Zelda 2 mode, lol.

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On 11/6/2017 at 12:56 PM, Slumber said:

Fire Emblem is an RPG first, and a strategy game second. Removing chance removes a LOT of what makes the series appealing to a lot.

Also, are you arguing/implying that FEH is more strategic than mainline FE? Because it's really a lot more along the lines of hardcore "Rock, paper, scissors", and it's far more of the meta game(Mostly skills and weapons) determining how well you do. If you have the right composition, you rarely have to worry about failing in FEH. There's no chance that your OP unit won't one-shot its appropriate target.

On top of this, part of strategy does involve anticipating and correcting mistakes. There really aren't many mistakes in FEH.

pretty much this, main series fire emblem (while i've had some hilarious lottery winning scenarios play out) still takes way more effort and strategy. FEH is more just whore out x strategy with OP units and reap the benefits. You can see this when they release new content and challenges where they have to grossly inflate the stats of enemies to compensate for said OP units.


Then you have conquest chapter 10, where even sometimes have 1-2 OP units doesn't guarantee victory. You have to really dig in and make the most of your team

Edited by Tsak

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I consider Heroes more of a puzzle game than a strategy game. Since the outcome of every battle is fixed, you can perfectly plan your moves, which eventually leads to a perfect solution. Other FE games that use the traditional RNG system are not that way, the influence of RNG makes it so you can't know every outcome in advance and have to adjust accordingly. To me, this aspect adds a lot of replay value, as every playthrough is slightly different. 

There is a certain charm to games like Heroes. If you manage to find the perfect solution, you know you have solved the game. LTC and speedrunners try to do the same thing with regular FE games, but due to the random aspect of the game, even the most reliable strategies are not guaranteed to work. I personally appreciate the fact that FE games cannot be completely solved.

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I wouldn't want the removal of those classic stats in FE Switch, as they are part of the strategy game on how you would adapt and make decisions based on them. What I would like to see however, are some of the original characters, even as DLC

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I want color coded enemies/units to come back. I loved how intricate and well-thought out the whole scheme of things are. It’s perfect parallelism and and definite design, as in you know off the bat what units are good against what units just based off the color of the uniform. I like to think that the different colors are actually different tribes that once fought among each other before they either united into or were conquered by the Emblian empire. But these Emblians still maintain their tribal identity, which is why they wear their colors with pride. 

 

It would also explain the different types of units developed, as the tribes would have to figure out ways to partially offset the weapon advantage system. For instance, an armored soldier would be developed to take and give extra damage to lighter units even if he technically had the disadvantage. Mages would be developed to be able to strike from a distance and deal lots of damage to physical units. Calvary would be developed to ensure getting the first hits out of the battle. Things like this would give both the Emblian empire more backstory than “Muhahaha, we’re the bad guys”. And I honestly hope they do this again and expand upon it in FE16. 

Edited by ElectiveToast

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While accuracy does spice the gameplay up, I hope stat gains work like in Heroes: I'd rather have "good" and "bad" Level Ups and know everything will work out in the end than get RNG-screwed and know that character will never be as good as they could be (my FE7 Lyn kept getting screwed something dreadful...)

As for skills, if SoV's "HP Cost" system isn't coming back, I'd love to see them on a cooldown instead of leaving them up to chance.

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I doubt the true RNG will disappear that's been always part of the series losing it would be wrong and take out the feel of the games....Heroes does it because its fixed that way and character growths in that game are also fixed since 40 is the Cap lv while Merges act like the Limit breaker skill/My Castle statues of cap increasing as well as the map design intentionally small. What I can see coming from Heroes are weapons like the Blade/Reverse Blade tomes/weapons, certain skills maybe a skill evolving system like how Heroes done it (would be interesting especially if 2nd gens come back), coloring the units I don't think will happen since Heroes only did it because no shop system and too much complexity for a mobile game like this to carry many varied weapon types so making 1 unit have 1 weapon is easy to program.

Edited by Blade Lord Lyn

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Class diversity would unfortunately diminish greatly if hit/avoid were removed. 

That said, random level up stats should absolutely be removed in favor of selectable boon/banes in the mainline games. This would preserve replay value and allow units to be optimized. It would also make the PvP they've attempted to shoe-horn into the game an actual balanced, legitimate game mode.

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No, thank you. The RNG is actually something that was made as rough as it was in early games to add to the realism, and Hit/Crit rates have been nerfed to the ground after the new maths of Fates. It's calculated on a curve now, and crits override and ignore hit rates. That's why high skill units are crit machines and why even decent accuracy lands so often and low accuracy is a death sentence.

Removing these stats outright would change up some things for better and worse, it would need 90 other gameplay elements to be retooled and balanced out to deal with the lack of RNG in direct combat. Heroes handles this with the Gachas, skill eatin-"inheriting," and the star ratings. Heroes has units so far ahead of others based on weaponry and innate skills, so without the RNG and unit building depending on your gacha luck and IRL funds, every player's army would be pretty homogeneous. 

At that point, it's less a strategy game, and more a puzzle game about finding the right solution to beat the other army. That's oddly impersonal for an FE game.

 

I do like Heroes's weapon triangle putting the 3 types of magic (back) in, but it's a pretty different format in all other fronts from mainline FE.

Edited by Altrosa

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