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8 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

You could give all of the Black Knight's scenes to Ashnard and nothing would change

I feel Ike's character would be lesser if Ashnard took BK's scenes. Yes, Ike would be just as eager to grow stronger and defeat Ashnard, but you'd miss out on a deeper connection Ike has with BK. Both Ike and BK studied under Greil and neither of them could really match him before he died. Ike wants to become as strong as he can be to live up to his father's legacy as does BK to prove he is the best swordsman. Ashnard doesn't care about mastery of technique, he just wants to create a dog-eats-dog world. Ike would oppose him, but it would be as any other protagonist would. "Ashnard is evil, so I must stop him."

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8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I feel Ike's character would be lesser if Ashnard took BK's scenes. Yes, Ike would be just as eager to grow stronger and defeat Ashnard, but you'd miss out on a deeper connection Ike has with BK. Both Ike and BK studied under Greil and neither of them could really match him before he died. Ike wants to become as strong as he can be to live up to his father's legacy as does BK to prove he is the best swordsman. Ashnard doesn't care about mastery of technique, he just wants to create a dog-eats-dog world. Ike would oppose him, but it would be as any other protagonist would. "Ashnard is evil, so I must stop him."

Se, but here you run into another issue with the Black Knight, that he has arguably the most confused characterization in the series. When he first shows up he kills Greil basically in cold blood and threatens to torture Mist basically because he really, really wants to fight Greil. Then, later, he's a worthy opponent, for essentially no reason. I frankly think the Ike-Black Knight connection was terribly done, and not just because of the confused characterization. His character as General Zelgius isn't related to Ike much at all; if anything Zelgius's backstory makes him a much better foil for Micaiah; they're both branded, but Zelgius lets others define his identity(in this case Sephiran) while Micaiah makes her own identity. Ultimately, the Black Knight isn't anything more than a bad Darth Vader ripoff except the narrative's really iffy on if he turned to the Dark Side.

I've already touched on how Ashnard works well as a foil for Ike(in that Ike as a strong commoner stands to benefit basically more than anyone from the world Ashnard wants to create but refuses because he doesn't believe his strength should give him authority over others) but you could give him a further connection with Greil; Greil, as a general of Daein, trained the Young Prince Ashnard; despite being Greil's best pupil Ashnard could never beat him. Ashnard began identifying more with commoners than with the Daein nobility, and Greil and him often talk about how competence rather than birth should define one's place in society. Then, the plague comes. Greil's suspicion builds as heir after heir dies, until at Ashnard's coronation he confronts him; Ashnard admits to engineering the plague through a blood pact and justifies himself by asking "what are my thirteen brothers compared to all of the people of Daein?" Horrified, Greil flees to Crimea with Elena(this is also how Ashnard gets introduced to Lehran's Medallion, so he aims to free Yune and create a world of chaos) and decides to raise Ike a warrior to fight the monster he helped create. Replacing Ashnard with the Black Knight doesn't just have to be in game; their back stories can be combined too. 

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14 hours ago, Anacybele said:

@vanguard333 I'm high-functioning autistic too! So I kinda relate to Ike the same way. I also share his bluntness, honestly. lol And hatred of politics, sorta.

Strange. I'm also autistic like you and I am like the exact opposite of Ike.

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52 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Se, but here you run into another issue with the Black Knight, that he has arguably the most confused characterization in the series. When he first shows up he kills Greil basically in cold blood and threatens to torture Mist basically because he really, really wants to fight Greil. Then, later, he's a worthy opponent, for essentially no reason. I frankly think the Ike-Black Knight connection was terribly done, and not just because of the confused characterization. His character as General Zelgius isn't related to Ike much at all; if anything Zelgius's backstory makes him a much better foil for Micaiah; they're both branded, but Zelgius lets others define his identity(in this case Sephiran) while Micaiah makes her own identity. Ultimately, the Black Knight isn't anything more than a bad Darth Vader ripoff except the narrative's really iffy on if he turned to the Dark Side.

I've already touched on how Ashnard works well as a foil for Ike(in that Ike as a strong commoner stands to benefit basically more than anyone from the world Ashnard wants to create but refuses because he doesn't believe his strength should give him authority over others) but you could give him a further connection with Greil; Greil, as a general of Daein, trained the Young Prince Ashnard; despite being Greil's best pupil Ashnard could never beat him. Ashnard began identifying more with commoners than with the Daein nobility, and Greil and him often talk about how competence rather than birth should define one's place in society. Then, the plague comes. Greil's suspicion builds as heir after heir dies, until at Ashnard's coronation he confronts him; Ashnard admits to engineering the plague through a blood pact and justifies himself by asking "what are my thirteen brothers compared to all of the people of Daein?" Horrified, Greil flees to Crimea with Elena(this is also how Ashnard gets introduced to Lehran's Medallion, so he aims to free Yune and create a world of chaos) and decides to raise Ike a warrior to fight the monster he helped create. Replacing Ashnard with the Black Knight doesn't just have to be in game; their back stories can be combined too. 

What type of role do you think Zelgius should play in RD? I think his role there is fine and there'd be no inconsistencies in regards to him being honourable. I mainly like Zelgius in RD anyway and do agree with you that he made Ashnard look like a pretty pathetic villain. 

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9 hours ago, Icelerate said:

What type of role do you think Zelgius should play in RD? I think his role there is fine and there'd be no inconsistencies in regards to him being honourable. I mainly like Zelgius in RD anyway and do agree with you that he made Ashnard look like a pretty pathetic villain. 

Firstly, don't make him the Black Knight. I think that having Zelgius be his own character who's loyal to Sephiran works fine, and play him up as a foil to Micaiah. I also think Elincia and Micaiah should have been the co-protagonists of Radiant Dawn. More than anything, though, I'd change the retcon that Sephiran was backing Ashnard. I'd want Sephiran to provide a lot of aid and speak up in favor of Begnion warring with Daein precisely because Ashnard's plans to awaken Yune and have her bring chaos are at odds with his plans to awaken Ashara. I think that the RD retcon made POR's story somewhat pointless from the perspective of the history of Tellius, and it's also ludicrous that if Sephiran was focusing so much on propping up Ashnard he'd be able to get another war started in just three years. Then again I think a lot of things could have been ironed out about Tellius. It's the most ambitious FE series; a lot works story wise, a lot doesn't.

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I do plan on starting a BK thread at some point because he's just that cool. I do love the BK.

As for Ike and the BK, I find that there's an interesting little dynamic there. The Black Knight helping Micaiah and farther pitting her against Ike is one of my favorite uses of him in RD. I do wish there had been more interaction there between all three of them but I wish there was more in general of everything in RD. Just make it never end lol.

I also wish Ike had shown some more emotion when confronting him, but that's just me. I don't know that there's much more I can personally say about Ike as I haven't played PoR , but overall I really do like him. He's fun to watch and I do really enjoy characters that just destroy maps. It's why I like Haar so much.

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On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎08 at 9:18 PM, Anacybele said:

@vanguard333 I'm high-functioning autistic too! So I kinda relate to Ike the same way. I also share his bluntness, honestly. lol And hatred of politics, sorta.

You're also high-functioning autistic? Wow; first it was that Ike was our favourite character. Then it was that PoR was our first respective FE game after playing Smash Bros. Now, both of us are high-functioning autistic. Just curious; are you by any chance red-haired or left-handed?

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

You're also high-functioning autistic? Wow; first it was that Ike was our favourite character. Then it was that PoR was our first respective FE game after playing Smash Bros. Now, both of us are high-functioning autistic. Just curious; are you by any chance red-haired or left-handed?

Those are some interesting things we have in common! lol. But no, I'm not a red head or a lefty. I can do most things well with my left hand, but I use my right more often.

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10 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Se, but here you run into another issue with the Black Knight, that he has arguably the most confused characterization in the series. When he first shows up he kills Greil basically in cold blood and threatens to torture Mist basically because he really, really wants to fight Greil. Then, later, he's a worthy opponent, for essentially no reason. I frankly think the Ike-Black Knight connection was terribly done, and not just because of the confused characterization. His character as General Zelgius isn't related to Ike much at all; if anything Zelgius's backstory makes him a much better foil for Micaiah; they're both branded, but Zelgius lets others define his identity(in this case Sephiran) while Micaiah makes her own identity.

Radiant Dawn definitely confuses his characterization, but his rivalry in PoR (and parts of Radiant Dawn) is well written. I enjoy their battle dialogue in both games which highlights that their personal mission is to be the best swordsman (ie better than Greil). 

BK isn't as compelling a foil to Micaiah because Micaiah's status as a Branded is only a part of her character (her larger concern is protecting her people) where one could argue that BK's character is far more influenced by his Branded status.

10 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

I've already touched on how Ashnard works well as a foil for Ike(in that Ike as a strong commoner stands to benefit basically more than anyone from the world Ashnard wants to create but refuses because he doesn't believe his strength should give him authority over others) but you could give him a further connection with Greil; Greil, as a general of Daein, trained the Young Prince Ashnard; despite being Greil's best pupil Ashnard could never beat him. Ashnard began identifying more with commoners than with the Daein nobility, and Greil and him often talk about how competence rather than birth should define one's place in society. Then, the plague comes. Greil's suspicion builds as heir after heir dies, until at Ashnard's coronation he confronts him; Ashnard admits to engineering the plague through a blood pact and justifies himself by asking "what are my thirteen brothers compared to all of the people of Daein?" Horrified, Greil flees to Crimea with Elena(this is also how Ashnard gets introduced to Lehran's Medallion, so he aims to free Yune and create a world of chaos) and decides to raise Ike a warrior to fight the monster he helped create. Replacing Ashnard with the Black Knight doesn't just have to be in game; their back stories can be combined too. 

Hm, I'm a bit iffy on this characterization (although I would have liked for Ashnard to have that dialogue with Ike, even if nothing else was changed in the story). I don't think Ashnard would particularly identify with commoners over nobles. He doesn't want commoners to advance, he wants the strong, no matter who or what they are, to rule over the weak. The guy is a crazy motherfucker (you'd have to be to want to use Lehran's Medallion), so I don't feel the need to insert some superiority complex (from BK) in order to justify why he wants to reshape the world.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think Ashnard and BK's traits work better in separate characters.

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He's rather over hyped. I dont dislike him, but he's far from my favorite lord in the series.

I like his personality for the most part, and what he stands for, but his storyline isnt that much different from other FE lords, despite growing up as a commoner. Imo, Alm did the whole commoner thing better than him.

I would have much rather Elincia been the main protag in PoR and Micaiah in RD. Those 2 are for more interesting characters to me then Ike ever was.

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4 minutes ago, Elincia said:

He's rather over hyped. I dont dislike him, but he's far from my favorite lord in the series.

I like his personality for the most part, and what he stands for, but his storyline isnt that much different from other FE lords, despite growing up as a commoner. Imo, Alm did the whole commoner thing better than him.

I would have much rather Elincia been the main protag in PoR and Micaiah in RD. Those 2 are for more interesting characters to me then Ike ever was.

Lot of people say that. I don't deny that Elincia would have been a great protag, but Ike was quite the fresh breath of air, where he is completely non-royal. Even Alm, despite growing as commoner, was always stated to be different from others, because Alm is a "blueblood" through and through. 

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On 11/8/2017 at 8:53 PM, vanguard333 said:

As someone with high-functioning autism, my mind works a bit differently than others, and part of it is that it takes a lot more effort for me to learn about societal norms and such. So, naturally, I found Ike: an introverted, somewhat socially awkward peasant who has to learn about the world around him, far more relatable than all the princes and noble sons. 

I happen to have high fuctioning autism as well. I'm rather blunt and social awkward at times, so I'm probably a lot more like Ike than I like to admit, lol.

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9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Lot of people say that. I don't deny that Elincia would have been a great protag, but Ike was quite the fresh breath of air, where he is completely non-royal. Even Alm, despite growing as commoner, was always stated to be different from others, because Alm is a "blueblood" through and through. 

As I said before, though, him being a commoner in practice doesn't really change much. Sure, he bad mouths nobles a bit, but him being a commoner doesn't really play into his character arc, which is the standard "hero learns to be a good leader" arc transitioned onto a Mercenary company. That's why making his rival Ashnard works so well; it gives his being a commoner relevance. Here is a man offering to build a world where his strength, not his birth, determines his status, and Ike rejects this, because he doesn't want to replace tyranny by blood with tyranny by force even if he will benefit from the latter. Even with this I think Elincia should have been co-protagonist.

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2 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

Even with this I think Elincia should have been co-protagonist.

I've probably asked you before, but what do you think sets Elincia apart from every other protagonist? Displaced royalty fleeing to other countries to recruit allies and liberate their home country has been the protagonist mold since FE1. Elincia is even more typical than Ike.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I've probably asked you before, but what do you think sets Elincia apart from every other protagonist? Displaced royalty fleeing to other countries to recruit allies and liberate their home country has been the protagonist mold since FE1. Elincia is even more typical than Ike.

Now, I don't know blah's mind, but one thing that is different about her is that she's really sheltered, possibly more than Corrin, who at least recieved combat training. Elincia unlike all the other lords was, basically a damsel in distress, (well not really, but hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make.) She was completely reliant on others.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I've probably asked you before, but what do you think sets Elincia apart from every other protagonist? Displaced royalty fleeing to other countries to recruit allies and liberate their home country has been the protagonist mold since FE1. Elincia is even more typical than Ike.

Yeah I like Elincia, but she's an accessory like Guinevere in FE6/Nyna in SD for most of PoR. Her opening is particularly cliched- a mysterious girl who happens to be the secret princess of a kingdom doesn't make me want to hurl like Ninian does (though she isn't so bad when you know Sophia exists), but it's not good. She does get better, but RD is where she truly shines.

 

21 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Now, I don't know blah's mind, but one thing that is different about her is that she's really sheltered, possibly more than Corrin, who at least recieved combat training. Elincia unlike all the other lords was, basically a damsel in distress, (well not really, but hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make.) She was completely reliant on others.

Actually,

Elincia:
“Ha ha! I wasn’t raised at court, so my life was a bit different than other princesses. I cooked,cleaned, sewed…Why, I did all manner of things.”

Mist:
“Really? That’s surprising. I would never have guessed that by looking at you.”

Elincia:
“Let’s see, I also rode horses, practiced swordfighting…Ah, Mist. What’s that around your neck?”

And then one chapter later

Elincia:
“My lord Ike, I…I will fight with you!”

Ike:
“…No, you won’t.”

Elincia:
“My lord?”

Ike:
“I cannot let you expose yourself to danger of any kind. Everyone here is risking his life to ensure your safety. If you understand that, you’ll cooperate and do as I ask.”

Elincia:
“I see…I will do my part.”

I wish Elincia joined as a staffbot in C6, and had scattered availability from then on out (no Begnion fighting, no C7/8/9 fighting, but otherwise full availability). With her promotion being after Battle Reunion (her promotion bonuses would be large to compensate for her late appearance).

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37 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Now, I don't know blah's mind, but one thing that is different about her is that she's really sheltered, possibly more than Corrin, who at least recieved combat training. Elincia unlike all the other lords was, basically a damsel in distress, (well not really, but hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make.) She was completely reliant on others.

I think the story we got flows naturally. If they cut Ike and replaced him with Lucia, Elincia would still be in the role of a helpless damsel. You could spend more time developing Elincia into a self-reliant lord, but it's still a common FE protagonist journey. Elincia finishing PoR as a more confident but still inexperienced sovereign had a nice pay off in RD, where her lack of skill in governance allows a rebellion to form. You wouldn't have so satisfying a conclusion if Elincia's development was already finished by the end of PoR.

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32 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yeah I like Elincia, but she's an accessory like Guinevere in FE6/Nyna in SD for most of PoR. Her opening is particularly cliched- a mysterious girl who happens to be the secret princess of a kingdom doesn't make me want to hurl like Ninian does (though she isn't so bad when you know Sophia exists), but it's not good. She does get better, but RD is where she truly shines.

 

Actually,

Elincia:
“Ha ha! I wasn’t raised at court, so my life was a bit different than other princesses. I cooked,cleaned, sewed…Why, I did all manner of things.”

Mist:
“Really? That’s surprising. I would never have guessed that by looking at you.”

Elincia:
“Let’s see, I also rode horses, practiced swordfighting…Ah, Mist. What’s that around your neck?”

And then one chapter later

Elincia:
“My lord Ike, I…I will fight with you!”

Ike:
“…No, you won’t.”

Elincia:
“My lord?”

Ike:
“I cannot let you expose yourself to danger of any kind. Everyone here is risking his life to ensure your safety. If you understand that, you’ll cooperate and do as I ask.”

Elincia:
“I see…I will do my part.”

I wish Elincia joined as a staffbot in C6, and had scattered availability from then on out (no Begnion fighting, no C7/8/9 fighting, but otherwise full availability). With her promotion being after Battle Reunion (her promotion bonuses would be large to compensate for her late appearance).

Huh, I blame my lack of remebrance on how passive she came off at times.

Edited by RedRob
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A few reasons to make Elincia co-protagonist: 

It would give insight into what's going on politically without forcing some mercenary nobody into a meeting with the damn Empress of Begnion.

Elincia's development in RD worked well, but I felt it was too rushed, and would be better spread out in a whole game, You could have her discover that Ludveck is leading a Quisling regime; so she goes through the same arc of deciding to enforce the law on her people. Another moment that was criminally missed is her recognizing Bertram as Renning. You could easily do her development in POR.

Finally, giving her a more nuanced characterization and active role could help develop Ike's perception of the aristocracy.

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Since I see several character threads in this section around I'm asking why not making a general FE10 character discussion thread where you update this thread with a new character after a few days? It would save a lot of new threads and makes the overview for the visitors easier. It's what I did with in the the DB members.


As for Ike I like him (not love) him in FE9 for being a great lord gameplaywise without a real weakness and for having character development. He is credible at any time, especially when he misbehaves in Sanaki's presence. 

In FE10 he's stuck with his personality and affects the ending way more than he should. Tbh he lost all my symphaties in FE10 he earned in FE9. Gameplaywise he's still pretty good but doesn't trivialize the game unlike in the prequel. Also I don't like his stature, I'm no fan of beefcakes.

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I don’t like Ike at all in both parts of Blueberry Saga. He is always right and is never allowed to grow as a character.

I’m just going to repost myself from the “you like but others don’t, you don’t like but others do” thread in order to not repeat myself yet again:

On 27.09.2017 at 11:38 AM, Vaximillian said:

Ike. The Blueberry himself. I am pretty sure I’ve said enough about him already so that I don't need to repeat myself, but here we go in an abridged form: he is too perfect. See Ephraim? Add “I’m not noble” and you get Ike. Incapable of interacting with any independent or else group without putting his foot into his mouth, insulting them, beating them up, or all of the above, he somehow becomes the messiah that everybody heeds; and if they don’t heed, they are noble dicks who are to be bulldozed anyway, because nobility is bad unless it's good. Sanaki was dicking around anyway, Shinon was an unrepentant dick anyway, and everybody is a dick except those who follow Ike. And then they pull a Yune to cheat Micaiah of her game. Applause.

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Serious question: How is one "too perfect" if he is "incapable of interacting with any independent or else group without putting his foot into his mouth, insulting them, beating them up, or all of the above"?

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37 minutes ago, ping said:

Serious question: How is one "too perfect" if he is "incapable of interacting with any independent or else group without putting his foot into his mouth, insulting them, beating them up, or all of the above"?

I guess one could argue he's perfect because he doesn't suffer serious consequences from his flaws (personally, I think the story justifies why he doesn't get seriously punished).

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