Jump to content

Recommended Posts

So I think it's no surprise to anyone that most FE Lords are or could be considered Paragons.

For those wondering, a paragon is a person or thing regarded as a perfect example of a particular quality. They tend to be catalysts in other character's development and influence others to follow them out of pure paragon-ness. Overly Sarcastic Productions on Youtube has a video about paragons so for a more in depth discussion about the paragon itself, she's far better at tropes than me.

Anyway, the point of this is to discuss the paragonness that is inherent in all FE Lords, from Alm to Corrin, and how it was used. Were they effective Paragons? Were they subverted?

I'll use two examples of characters I know well enough to actually talk about - Micaiah and Corrin.

Micaiah is a really good example of a Paragon. She's upstanding and people naturally want to follow her and her example. What makes her interesting is that she happens to lead those followers down the wrong path - not because she wants to, but because she has to in order to save her country. Micaiah suffers from development issues because she isn't the main focus of her game, but what we do see about her is a really nice twist to the paragon-type character.

Now for Corrin. Call it bad writing all you want (I'm not saying I agree or disagree) but Corrin is generally considered by everyone to be someone that you can and should follow, to follow their example. This may not be handled very well throughout Fates, but it's still true that Corrin is a paragon - influencing other characters to develop and change more than Corrin does any actual changing.

Of course this can be applied to any and every Lord throughout Fire Emblem I'm sure, so if you feel up to it, please discuss your favorite (or least favorite) characters and why you think they are or aren't paragons. If they are paragons does it work? If they're not paragons would you change them?

Also this doesn't just have to be main lords, as Emmeryn could be considered one too so go wild!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, you have been making threads left and right. XD

While I get that Corrin was well intentioned, I disagree that their paragon was affected right. I get the case on the making of choices, but Corrin's choices in Birthright and Conquest were kind of narrow minded, and he keeps trying to insist that things will be good if his siblings just listen, but he has quite the nerve when he's essentially damaging the other nation and then telling the siblings that they can just return to normal like nothing happened. He even gets forgiven for his actions completely by the end of each route. And in Revelations, with zero evidence, Corrin just keeps spouting "trust me" repeatedly, warranting zero reason for anyone to trust him. Bad writing didn't help Corrin's paragon at all.

For me, I'll use Marth for the paragon. Marth started off as a normal prince at first. However, in a single night, he had to abandon his kingdom, his father was betrayed and killed, and his mother and sister were captured. He was ashamed of himself and even called himself a craven because of his powerlessness. He vowed to reclaim his kingdom as well as revenge on the kingdom that conquered his land and betrayed it. However, a few years later, he finally begins to make his move, but through it all, he understood the horrors of war, and when he finally reached Gra, the nation that betrayed his land, he learned that Gra was actually divided and how many people there wanted to fight alongside his kingdom, not betray it. He admits that he has hated Gra for so long, but now, though the hate remains, he now realizes it isn't just hate that exists in him. He learns that evil may not truly be evil beneath the surface. 

Then he reclaims his homeland, however, two things he learns. His sister is in the custody of another, and his mother was killed. He wants to grieve, but the people of his land was oppressed too long, and gives this amazing line:

"I am a prince before I am a son or a brother."

The guy is hurting. He wanted to come back home and have some semblance of his old life, but found none, but despite the pain he felt, he pushed it down and put on a brave face for his people to cheer joyfully. Finally, through it all, Marth ultimately embodies the concept of how one man is weak on his own, but together, they can have the strength to overcome any trial. That's because from his experience, he lost everything, but with the help of others, he regained everything once more. He knew how powerless he was, and from understanding that weakness, he found immeasurable strength. 

Marth isn't the face of Fire Emblem just cause he's the first Lord. He's the face because he was developed spectacularly in Shadow Dragon. It's a damn shame that Shadow Dragon is the worst Fire Emblem game there is. And the sequel, Mystery of the Emblem... well, I will say that Kris the Avatar kind of had the misfortune of hurting character development despite being purely supporting role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with what's been said about Marth. Though I do have some notes to add.

Marth did try his best to not lose any casualties in war, which he acknowledges as near impossible but it's this concern for others that helps builds Marth's character. Also the relationship with Kris shows that not one person can win a war, they need allies, and Kris does that by being Marth's best friend/bodyguard. It's even said at the end of FE12 that Marth wants Kris to be written in the history books, but Kris denies, saying that the people need a hero to look up to, that it must be Marth alone. This kinda goes with my personal timeline theory where FE1/2/3 are how the events were recorded in history books while FE11/12/15 where what actually happened. I also want to say that Marth endured many hardships, countless deaths he couldn't prevent, but his reliance upon others to help him allowed him to continue on his quest. There's another thing I want to bring up, Lucina, she impersonates Marth during Awakening. Well in Warriors, she and Marth talk, she tells him that she used his name as a symbol of hope, that since he is the hero king (and partly due to Kris's impact in history being un-noted) he is seen as the ultimate savior and image of hope. Marth however doesn't see himself as such. This also relates to his relationship with allies as they do realize he is the main leader and the one that will be seen as the main hero. In short, Marth is a hero in every way, very humble, and able to perform many tasks, but he doesn't do it alone, his strength comes from others and that is why he is the face of Fire Emblem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I like Chrom because unlike other Lords he becomes a paragon though story progression rather than being born with a heart of gold. He constantly admits he'll never be the voice of peace and progressiv-ism that his older sister was, and his want of bringing death to people like Gangrel intimidates him because of the example set forth by his war-mongering father. His exchange with Robin in chapter 6 is excellently written:
 

Spoiler

Chrom: Oh, hi, Robin. Just...dueling with some unpleasant thoughts... Tomorrow we march to Regna Ferox to request additional soldiers. But there's something you should know first. ...Not everything Gangrel said was a lie. The last exalt, my father, waged war on Plegia for many years. The violence... It was a brutal campaign, ending only with his death 15 years ago. Plegia rightfully remembers their suffering, but his war was no kinder to his own people. As the fighting dragged on, our army became more and more diminished. Farmers who could barely wield a pitchfork were conscripted and sent to their deaths. Soon there was no food at all, and the kingdom began to collapse. I was young, but I remember those dark times. ...I know how they affected Emmeryn. 

Robin: Such an experience would change anyone.

Chrom: Indeed. When our father died before her 10th year, he left her quite the legacy... Plegia's desire for vengeance... Our own people's unbridled rage... My sister became a target for blame from all sides. Her own subjects began to hurl insults—and stones. She still bears the scar from one... But she never let them see her pain. Only Lissa and I understood. 

Robin: It must have been so hard...

Chrom: I cannot claim to know how she does it, Robin. I could never greet such hostility with warmth and patience. While our people mocked and vilified her, she reached out and healed them. She brought soldiers home to their families. She ended the war. And when Ylisse's spirit was mended and the people "forgave" her? ...She never resented them for it. She represents the best of the halidom—the part most worth protecting. She IS peace. But some men would take advantage of that. Men like King Gangrel. The day he understands peace will be the day death gives it to him. ...So perhaps I must be death's agent. Emmeryn would never order him killed, nor would I wish her to.

 

Then we see Chrom has grown into his role as a world leader in chapter 12, after a two year time skip he witnesses the invading Valmese forces and says:

Spoiler

Chrom: These savages will never listen to reason. Everyone: prepare to engage!
Frederick: Milord, are you certain? Another war...
Chrom: I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

Unfortunately, the shift doesn't last. In the game's final chapters, it is revealed that the world can only be saved through the sacrifice of his friend, Robin. Chrom falters here, refusing to let Robin die, even after Robin shows his consent.

Spoiler

Chrom: Robin would cease to be?! No. We'll find another way.
Robin: Chrom, wait. You're not thinking clearly. Think about what your sister would have wanted.
Chrom: Emmeryn would never have asked you to do this!
Robin: What is one life, when weighed against millions?
Chrom: Stop it! You're one of us. You'll ALWAYS be one of us. There has to be another way. We just have to find it. Promise me, Robin. Promise me you won't do this!

While you could argue the very concept of sacrificing somebody other than yourself would go against a paragon's core philosophies, this sort of implies Chrom has learned nothing from his sister's example of valuing the lives of many over yourself or the people you care about. If you consider that the game ends with a good ending for Robin even when he does sacrifice himself, then the game is implying sacrifice is never the answer - and Emmeryn was in the wrong despite being the catalyst for a quick end to war in the first Act. To be clear, Chrom did face an impossible, unfair choice. But it wasn't his choice to make, it was Robin's. And I just wish there was a scene in which Chrom realizes he reacted rashly at that moment. Good example of Paragon, even to a Paragon's faults of never accepting sacrifice, but it comes at the cost of the game's narrative cohesion on the subject of sacrifice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

So I like Chrom because unlike other Lords he becomes a paragon though story progression rather than being born with a heart of gold. He constantly admits he'll never be the voice of peace and progressiv-ism that his older sister was, and his want of bringing death to people like Gangrel intimidates him because of the example set forth by his war-mongering father. His exchange with Robin in chapter 6 is excellently written:
 

  Hide contents

Chrom: Oh, hi, Robin. Just...dueling with some unpleasant thoughts... Tomorrow we march to Regna Ferox to request additional soldiers. But there's something you should know first. ...Not everything Gangrel said was a lie. The last exalt, my father, waged war on Plegia for many years. The violence... It was a brutal campaign, ending only with his death 15 years ago. Plegia rightfully remembers their suffering, but his war was no kinder to his own people. As the fighting dragged on, our army became more and more diminished. Farmers who could barely wield a pitchfork were conscripted and sent to their deaths. Soon there was no food at all, and the kingdom began to collapse. I was young, but I remember those dark times. ...I know how they affected Emmeryn. 

Robin: Such an experience would change anyone.

Chrom: Indeed. When our father died before her 10th year, he left her quite the legacy... Plegia's desire for vengeance... Our own people's unbridled rage... My sister became a target for blame from all sides. Her own subjects began to hurl insults—and stones. She still bears the scar from one... But she never let them see her pain. Only Lissa and I understood. 

Robin: It must have been so hard...

Chrom: I cannot claim to know how she does it, Robin. I could never greet such hostility with warmth and patience. While our people mocked and vilified her, she reached out and healed them. She brought soldiers home to their families. She ended the war. And when Ylisse's spirit was mended and the people "forgave" her? ...She never resented them for it. She represents the best of the halidom—the part most worth protecting. She IS peace. But some men would take advantage of that. Men like King Gangrel. The day he understands peace will be the day death gives it to him. ...So perhaps I must be death's agent. Emmeryn would never order him killed, nor would I wish her to.

 

Then we see Chrom has grown into his role as a world leader in chapter 12, after a two year time skip he witnesses the invading Valmese forces and says:

  Hide contents

Chrom: These savages will never listen to reason. Everyone: prepare to engage!
Frederick: Milord, are you certain? Another war...
Chrom: I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

Unfortunately, the shift doesn't last. In the game's final chapters, it is revealed that the world can only be saved through the sacrifice of his friend, Robin. Chrom falters here, refusing to let Robin die, even after Robin shows his consent.

  Hide contents

Chrom: Robin would cease to be?! No. We'll find another way.
Robin: Chrom, wait. You're not thinking clearly. Think about what your sister would have wanted.
Chrom: Emmeryn would never have asked you to do this!
Robin: What is one life, when weighed against millions?
Chrom: Stop it! You're one of us. You'll ALWAYS be one of us. There has to be another way. We just have to find it. Promise me, Robin. Promise me you won't do this!

While you could argue the very concept of sacrificing somebody other than yourself would go against a paragon's core philosophies, this sort of implies Chrom has learned nothing from his sister's example of valuing the lives of many over yourself or the people you care about. If you consider that the game ends with a good ending for Robin even when he does sacrifice himself, then the game is implying sacrifice is never the answer - and Emmeryn was in the wrong despite being the catalyst for a quick end to war in the first Act. To be clear, Chrom did face an impossible, unfair choice. But it wasn't his choice to make, it was Robin's. And I just wish there was a scene in which Chrom realizes he reacted rashly at that moment. Good example of Paragon, even to a Paragon's faults of never accepting sacrifice, but it comes at the cost of the game's narrative cohesion on the subject of sacrifice.

Mhm. However, I want to also point out that these are somewhat Chrom's more hypocritical moments, like how Chrom insists that one life cannot be compared to many when talking to Aversa, but Aversa retorted that Chrom can say that when the life is someone Chrom holds no love towards. Aversa was right. When its for someone he cares not for, sacrifice is easy to be considered, but when it involves a friend, then all hell breaks loose. However, does this make Chroma  bad character? 

Not at all. It's in fact VERY human. Anyone can spout idealistic and philosophical words, but when having to choose idealism with the life of someone one loves, its not something that can be done easily, and one can very easily break away from their own ideals. Like it's said in Persona series several times, "the heart is fragile." Just because a character undergoes development does not mean painful situations or circumstances cannot have them regress or be able to make hard choices like these.

However, at the same time, Chrom hasn't just forgotten everything. After all, despite how much Chrom utterly despises Gangrel, in his paralogue, Chrom didn't kill Gangrel and can in fact recruit Gangrel, which is a feat in itself, given by how much bad blood the two share.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marth position as a Paragon is actually interesting, because it ended up causing arguably an even bigger damage to Archanea during WoH compared to Archanea's state during WoS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wow, you have been making threads left and right. XD

While I get that Corrin was well intentioned, I disagree that their paragon was affected right. I get the case on the making of choices, but Corrin's choices in Birthright and Conquest were kind of narrow minded, and he keeps trying to insist that things will be good if his siblings just listen, but he has quite the nerve when he's essentially damaging the other nation and then telling the siblings that they can just return to normal like nothing happened. He even gets forgiven for his actions completely by the end of each route. And in Revelations, with zero evidence, Corrin just keeps spouting "trust me" repeatedly, warranting zero reason for anyone to trust him. Bad writing didn't help Corrin's paragon at all.

For me, I'll use Marth for the paragon.

Well, I live in a very rural area where no one I know plays FE.... So I have 10 years worth of discussions to get out of my head and into the open.

As for Corrin I never said that it was executed well, just that they are a paragon xD Which they are, though the bad writing and story execution is just..... that's another topic for another day lol. Considering the deaths that happen each route he should have more consequences than he does and the deaths felt..... cheap to me. With the exception of Elise none of them really made me feel anything.

Now I will admit to knowing next to nothing about Marth. I had Shadow Dragon and.... well, little cousins happen sometimes. As for Marth that's really interesting to learn and I can definitely see why he would be the face of the franchise and the "hero king", first main character aside. I'm really glad to learn these things about characters! Though may I say that Marth in Warriors is a complete beast.

13 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

So I like Chrom because unlike other Lords he becomes a paragon though story progression rather than being born with a heart of gold. He constantly admits he'll never be the voice of peace and progressiv-ism that his older sister was, and his want of bringing death to people like Gangrel intimidates him because of the example set forth by his war-mongering father. His exchange with Robin in chapter 6 is excellently written:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: Oh, hi, Robin. Just...dueling with some unpleasant thoughts... Tomorrow we march to Regna Ferox to request additional soldiers. But there's something you should know first. ...Not everything Gangrel said was a lie. The last exalt, my father, waged war on Plegia for many years. The violence... It was a brutal campaign, ending only with his death 15 years ago. Plegia rightfully remembers their suffering, but his war was no kinder to his own people. As the fighting dragged on, our army became more and more diminished. Farmers who could barely wield a pitchfork were conscripted and sent to their deaths. Soon there was no food at all, and the kingdom began to collapse. I was young, but I remember those dark times. ...I know how they affected Emmeryn. 

Robin: Such an experience would change anyone.

Chrom: Indeed. When our father died before her 10th year, he left her quite the legacy... Plegia's desire for vengeance... Our own people's unbridled rage... My sister became a target for blame from all sides. Her own subjects began to hurl insults—and stones. She still bears the scar from one... But she never let them see her pain. Only Lissa and I understood. 

Robin: It must have been so hard...

Chrom: I cannot claim to know how she does it, Robin. I could never greet such hostility with warmth and patience. While our people mocked and vilified her, she reached out and healed them. She brought soldiers home to their families. She ended the war. And when Ylisse's spirit was mended and the people "forgave" her? ...She never resented them for it. She represents the best of the halidom—the part most worth protecting. She IS peace. But some men would take advantage of that. Men like King Gangrel. The day he understands peace will be the day death gives it to him. ...So perhaps I must be death's agent. Emmeryn would never order him killed, nor would I wish her to.

 

Then we see Chrom has grown into his role as a world leader in chapter 12, after a two year time skip he witnesses the invading Valmese forces and says:

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: These savages will never listen to reason. Everyone: prepare to engage!
Frederick: Milord, are you certain? Another war...
Chrom: I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

Unfortunately, the shift doesn't last. In the game's final chapters, it is revealed that the world can only be saved through the sacrifice of his friend, Robin. Chrom falters here, refusing to let Robin die, even after Robin shows his consent.

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: Robin would cease to be?! No. We'll find another way.
Robin: Chrom, wait. You're not thinking clearly. Think about what your sister would have wanted.
Chrom: Emmeryn would never have asked you to do this!
Robin: What is one life, when weighed against millions?
Chrom: Stop it! You're one of us. You'll ALWAYS be one of us. There has to be another way. We just have to find it. Promise me, Robin. Promise me you won't do this!

While you could argue the very concept of sacrificing somebody other than yourself would go against a paragon's core philosophies, this sort of implies Chrom has learned nothing from his sister's example of valuing the lives of many over yourself or the people you care about. If you consider that the game ends with a good ending for Robin even when he does sacrifice himself, then the game is implying sacrifice is never the answer - and Emmeryn was in the wrong despite being the catalyst for a quick end to war in the first Act. To be clear, Chrom did face an impossible, unfair choice. But it wasn't his choice to make, it was Robin's. And I just wish there was a scene in which Chrom realizes he reacted rashly at that moment. Good example of Paragon, even to a Paragon's faults of never accepting sacrifice, but it comes at the cost of the game's narrative cohesion on the subject of sacrifice.

This is very true and I don't think Chrom gets enough recognition for how well he's actually portrayed. The focus tends to go to Lucina and Robin instead of Chrom which is actually kinda sad (and a slight reversal of Micaiah's situation) because he really is a great, flawed character that fits the role of a paragon very well. Of course it helps that he's a lord and becomes king because rulers tend to need paragon-esque qualities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

This is very true and I don't think Chrom gets enough recognition for how well he's actually portrayed. The focus tends to go to Lucina and Robin instead of Chrom which is actually kinda sad (and a slight reversal of Micaiah's situation) because he really is a great, flawed character that fits the role of a paragon very well. Of course it helps that he's a lord and becomes king because rulers tend to need paragon-esque qualities.

Well, Chrom was the central focus in the first arc, somewhat in the second, but then the third had him being overshadowed. I get why it happened. Awakening's biggest issue has been that all three arcs were crammed in and they just tried to go for as much references as they can get. Awakening was just one big reference game since it was thought to be the last game in the franchise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Chrom was the central focus in the first arc, somewhat in the second, but then the third had him being overshadowed. I get why it happened. Awakening's biggest issue has been that all three arcs were crammed in and they just tried to go for as much references as they can get. Awakening was just one big reference game since it was thought to be the last game in the franchise.

For what it was I really enjoyed Awakening. To be fair though I don't usually hyperanalyze games as much as I do RD so that might be where my blanket enjoyment of the games comes from xD

I did still really like Chrom (and always paired him with Robin, because it's fun to destroy the enemy absolutely) but... poor him in the third part. It seems like they were trying to make a bigger story without really paying attention to the world building necessary and so Chrom suffered for it. But hey, he's a great character nevertheless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

If you consider that the game ends with a good ending for Robin even when he does sacrifice himself, then the game is implying sacrifice is never the answer

I'm going to play the cynic card here and just say it's because IS couldn't fathom not giving us a totally happy ending. Particularly when the character being sacrificed is YOU!

22 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

But it wasn't his choice to make, it was Robin's. And I just wish there was a scene in which Chrom realizes he reacted rashly at that moment.

True, Chrom acting all "I can't sacrifice you!" would be better if they showed him sobered up later saying "Well I don't want you to die, it's hard on me, but I leave the choice to you."

Micaiah did realize she chose poorly when forsaking her chance set the world on fire to save Sothe. She regrets it, but admits she just couldn't choose otherwise. Chrom saying the same thing in advance of killing Grime would work and help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2017 at 1:53 PM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

For what it was I really enjoyed Awakening. To be fair though I don't usually hyperanalyze games as much as I do RD so that might be where my blanket enjoyment of the games comes from xD

I did still really like Chrom (and always paired him with Robin, because it's fun to destroy the enemy absolutely) but... poor him in the third part. It seems like they were trying to make a bigger story without really paying attention to the world building necessary and so Chrom suffered for it. But hey, he's a great character nevertheless.

Yeah, Chrom is great. I pair Chrom with either Robin or Sumia as primary candidates. Since I ship Robin and Lucina more, I go with Sumia. I do wish that Sumia's supports with him wasn't as terribly written, but Sumia slightly makes up for it in the main story in the first arc and the special proposal scene. Though there's also the case where how Sumia is too forced onto Chrom, so there're problems there. 

Chrom has other potential as well, which could have been expanded upon, but like the rest of Awakening, he had to be rushed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Micaiah's paragon image is well written. Daein was is poor shape after the MKA war, and what they needed was hope. Along comes Micaiah who stands up to oppression, performs miracles and is self sacrificing. Micaiah is seen as a paragon because that's what people needed to get them through dark times. Micaiah as an person, however, expressed doubt in her actions and has her own biases (her love for Sothe and Daein over more moral parties such as the LA) that make her human.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2017 at 7:58 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm going to play the cynic card here and just say it's because IS couldn't fathom not giving us a totally happy ending. Particularly when the character being sacrificed is YOU!

True, Chrom acting all "I can't sacrifice you!" would be better if they showed him sobered up later saying "Well I don't want you to die, it's hard on me, but I leave the choice to you."

Micaiah did realize she chose poorly when forsaking her chance set the world on fire to save Sothe. She regrets it, but admits she just couldn't choose otherwise. Chrom saying the same thing in advance of killing Grime would work and help.

Yeah people don't usually like seeing their characters die in video games. It can be really fun when it does happen though, if it's written well it can seriously leave the player reeling.

As for Chrom... I think it fits with his character, him trying to find some other way. However you're right that he should have left the choice up to Robin, but Chrom doesn't want anyone to have to sacrifice themselves. So...

16 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, Chrom is great. I pair Chrom with either Robin or Sumia as primary candidates. Since I ship Robin and Lucina more, I go with Sumia. I do wish that Sumia's supports with him wasn't as terribly written, but Sumia slightly makes up for it in the main story in the first arc and the special proposal scene. Though there's also the case where how Sumia is too forced onto Chrom, so there're problems there. 

Chrom has other potential as well, which could have been expanded upon, but like the rest of Awakening, he had to be rushed.

Ahhhh rushed writing. How we love you. I usually pair Robin and Chrom as I'm meh on Sumia and don't like how they keep throwing her in your face. Someone I know really ships Robin and Lissa so that's the route he usually goes which, hey, fine by me. It's still interesting how Chrom fills the paragon role when he has to.

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think Micaiah's paragon image is well written. Daein was is poor shape after the MKA war, and what they needed was hope. Along comes Micaiah who stands up to oppression, performs miracles and is self sacrificing. Micaiah is seen as a paragon because that's what people needed to get them through dark times. Micaiah as an person, however, expressed doubt in her actions and has her own biases (her love for Sothe and Daein over more moral parties such as the LA) that make her human.

That's really interesting to me too, since most of the time paragons are like Ike or Marth. Incredibly moral characters who put the good of everyone else above their own, so it's nice to see that get turned on its head. Micaiah is a good person but she's human and she doesn't always stand up for what's right for everyone (when those she loves are on the line) and that's incredibly realistic. What's even more fun is when there's a paragon villain. Someone who inspires people and leads them down the entirely wrong path for their own purposes, whatever they may be. Think Superman in Injustice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Ahhhh rushed writing. How we love you. I usually pair Robin and Chrom as I'm meh on Sumia and don't like how they keep throwing her in your face. Someone I know really ships Robin and Lissa so that's the route he usually goes which, hey, fine by me. It's still interesting how Chrom fills the paragon role when he has to.

Sadly, that wasn't the problem with Fates, as Fates was just bad writing period.

I get the issue with Sumia. Its just Sully and Maribelle don't really work with Chrom, and Olivia is just out of nowhere, and who would want a village maiden that gives Lucina crappy growths? Sumia just worked better, but I agree its too rushed. 

If it isn't Lucina, its Tiki, and then Emmeryn. Huh, I always go for the troubled girls I realized. XD

Though in Fates, my OTP would be Laslow/Azura.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Olivia personally. She's not the best unit (I always change her class) but she's cute and her supports are funny. Sully is a cool character but I don't usually use her and Maribelle... I've heard she could be good but I usually have my team figured out and she just doesn't fit in it. I adore Tiki though. She's great, I don't know why everyone seems to hate her so much in this one.

For Fates.... I really like pairing Odin and Elise because of the insane growths it gives Ophelia. Like I'll support them and then bench them both just to get Ophelia, she's that insane in her magic growths.

Anyway, I really enjoy paragons who grow into their roles as paragons more than ones that just... are paragons. I suppose that's why I like FE so much. Ike and Micaiah are both examples of this, they have to grow into their roles as paragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I like Olivia personally. She's not the best unit (I always change her class) but she's cute and her supports are funny. Sully is a cool character but I don't usually use her and Maribelle... I've heard she could be good but I usually have my team figured out and she just doesn't fit in it. I adore Tiki though. She's great, I don't know why everyone seems to hate her so much in this one.

For Fates.... I really like pairing Odin and Elise because of the insane growths it gives Ophelia. Like I'll support them and then bench them both just to get Ophelia, she's that insane in her magic growths.

Anyway, I really enjoy paragons who grow into their roles as paragons more than ones that just... are paragons. I suppose that's why I like FE so much. Ike and Micaiah are both examples of this, they have to grow into their roles as paragons.

Olivia is great. I'm just saying it feels too weird for her to be with Chrom personally. Though Inigo is unique in being the ONLY child unit apart from Lucina to mention the Brand, which is on the opposite eye of Lucina's.

Tiki being disliked is because of how she grew up to be a busty chick, going from cute adorable child to fanservice. But yeah, I like Tiki too. 2nd favorite ship with Robin after Lucina. Can't deny that Tiki being able to move on from Marth and finding her own love after so many years is touching. Plus it's the biggest middle finger to Grima, as the vessel of Grima ends up with the daughter of Grima's nemesis Naga.

Odin and Elise are perfect because Elise is the first girl that enjoys Odin's colorful speech and even tries to talk like Odin. Just like how I love Laslow/Azura, because Azura is the only girl that actually goes with INigo's true passion: dancing.

Mhm. Another paragon would be Alm. Alm is a guy that didn't know of his noble birthright, but thought himself to be just the grandson of a famous knight. He dreams of adventure and learning the unknown. Then he goes to a war because the army needed his grandfather who refused, and thus he went there in his grandfather's stead. There, he has to continue on his path to liberate Zofia, and then has to conquer Rigel because Rigel will continue to invade. Then at the end, he learns that his father is the emperor of Rigel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ike is actually a really good example of a paragon. Apart from his personal vendetta with the Black Knight, everything he does, he does because he sees good needing to be done. He is blunt and reckless, yet his kindness and compassion, and the way he sees everyone as an equal, makes him extremely charismatic. By chapter 18 of Path of Radiance, the Black Knight notes that, "Though his skill with the blade is rough, there is something...uncanny about him. People seem drawn to him. And not just Begnion's apostle, either. He's also gained the trust of the Serenes survivors...and of King Phoenicis as well." No matter how much Ike's bluntness and lack of social etiquette may infuriate people, all Ike ever has to do is swing his sword around and act all blunt yet kind, and people from all across Tellius flock to his side like it's the right thing to do, because of how much of a paragon Ike is.
The way Ike inspires people is probably most evident in Soren and Elincia. Ike gives Elincia a much needed confidence boost throughout all of Path of Radiance, and he brings about quite a bit of character development in Soren as well, especially if one reads the support conversations between them.

This doesn't stop him from being flawed. Paragon characters aren't perfect; usually they're very stubborn and reluctant to change their ways if there's something wrong with what they're doing, because they're so certain they're doing the right thing. Ike is no exception: he is extremely reckless and gets in and out of a lot of trouble because of it. But, unlike a lot of FE lords, Ike learns from his mistakes. He sees where he's messed up, and learns from it, and is even willing to change his viewpoint about stuff if what he originally thought is proven wrong. Early on in chapter... 11 I think, he admits to falling into the trap of thinking, "Crimea = good, Daein = bad" because of the war. But, when he sees that that viewpoint is wrong, he learns from it and acts against that viewpoint. He learns, and his struggle to learn from his mistakes is really well done. 

Ike is a really effective example of a paragon character in Path of Radiance, and to an extent in RD, though it isn't shown nearly as much in RD. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Olivia is great. I'm just saying it feels too weird for her to be with Chrom personally. Though Inigo is unique in being the ONLY child unit apart from Lucina to mention the Brand, which is on the opposite eye of Lucina's.

Tiki being disliked is because of how she grew up to be a busty chick, going from cute adorable child to fanservice. But yeah, I like Tiki too. 2nd favorite ship with Robin after Lucina. Can't deny that Tiki being able to move on from Marth and finding her own love after so many years is touching. Plus it's the biggest middle finger to Grima, as the vessel of Grima ends up with the daughter of Grima's nemesis Naga.

Odin and Elise are perfect because Elise is the first girl that enjoys Odin's colorful speech and even tries to talk like Odin. Just like how I love Laslow/Azura, because Azura is the only girl that actually goes with INigo's true passion: dancing.

Mhm. Another paragon would be Alm. Alm is a guy that didn't know of his noble birthright, but thought himself to be just the grandson of a famous knight. He dreams of adventure and learning the unknown. Then he goes to a war because the army needed his grandfather who refused, and thus he went there in his grandfather's stead. There, he has to continue on his path to liberate Zofia, and then has to conquer Rigel because Rigel will continue to invade. Then at the end, he learns that his father is the emperor of Rigel. 

I get that. Everyone has their own thing :) Is that really why people dislike Tiki in Awakening? Seriously? That's rather hard to fathom, I love her design! I also love her personality and how caring she is for everyone. Not to mention that she always turns out incredibly good for me. Also that whole middle finger to Grima is hilarious, I never thought of it that way before xD

As for Alm, I didn't really like his arc as much as I did Celica's but I do see that. Alm has this habit of getting people to follow him (with the exception of one but he's made out to be a jerk sorta like Shinon) and that's actually touched on quite often in the game. Haven't finished SoV yet.... I should probably do that.

16 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Ike is actually a really good example of a paragon. Apart from his personal vendetta with the Black Knight, everything he does, he does because he sees good needing to be done. He is blunt and reckless, yet his kindness and compassion, and the way he sees everyone as an equal, makes him extremely charismatic. By chapter 18 of Path of Radiance, the Black Knight notes that, "Though his skill with the blade is rough, there is something...uncanny about him. People seem drawn to him. And not just Begnion's apostle, either. He's also gained the trust of the Serenes survivors...and of King Phoenicis as well." No matter how much Ike's bluntness and lack of social etiquette may infuriate people, all Ike ever has to do is swing his sword around and act all blunt yet kind, and people from all across Tellius flock to his side like it's the right thing to do, because of how much of a paragon Ike is.
The way Ike inspires people is probably most evident in Soren and Elincia. Ike gives Elincia a much needed confidence boost throughout all of Path of Radiance, and he brings about quite a bit of character development in Soren as well, especially if one reads the support conversations between them.

This doesn't stop him from being flawed. Paragon characters aren't perfect; usually they're very stubborn and reluctant to change their ways if there's something wrong with what they're doing, because they're so certain they're doing the right thing. Ike is no exception: he is extremely reckless and gets in and out of a lot of trouble because of it. But, unlike a lot of FE lords, Ike learns from his mistakes. He sees where he's messed up, and learns from it, and is even willing to change his viewpoint about stuff if what he originally thought is proven wrong. Early on in chapter... 11 I think, he admits to falling into the trap of thinking, "Crimea = good, Daein = bad" because of the war. But, when he sees that that viewpoint is wrong, he learns from it and acts against that viewpoint. He learns, and his struggle to learn from his mistakes is really well done. 

Ike is a really effective example of a paragon character in Path of Radiance, and to an extent in RD, though it isn't shown nearly as much in RD. 

I really do like Ike and think he earned his role of paragon, unlike some people. Ike really encourages others to develop but he also develops himself and he's stubborn and set in what he thinks is right, which makes him really entertaining to watch. Also I really love him demanding answers from higher-ups and them just having no clue what to do about the way he talks to them xD

He isnt shown to be a paragon as effectively in RD but he still is one. That's why it could have been far more interesting than it was to see him against Micaiah, as she's a paragon too. Of course it wasn't handled very well so we lost the potential of what that could have been, but I really think it would have been fun to see two majorly influential characters go toe-to-toe, especially since one of them was forced to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I get that. Everyone has their own thing :) Is that really why people dislike Tiki in Awakening? Seriously? That's rather hard to fathom, I love her design! I also love her personality and how caring she is for everyone. Not to mention that she always turns out incredibly good for me. Also that whole middle finger to Grima is hilarious, I never thought of it that way before xD

That's pretty much the main reason. I don't think anyone has any other reason to dislike Tiki other than the fact that now she would look great in a bikini. And she does, if Heroes Summer Tiki has anything to say about it. 

cab4aa1ceb1ff67624e85484c9990fb7--fire-emblem-awakening-plan.jpg.90c58fc4eb72da3876e8600e87c8d322.jpg

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

As for Alm, I didn't really like his arc as much as I did Celica's but I do see that. Alm has this habit of getting people to follow him (with the exception of one but he's made out to be a jerk sorta like Shinon) and that's actually touched on quite often in the game. Haven't finished SoV yet.... I should probably do that.

Assuming you mean Fernand. You really should playthrough SoV and some of the DLC too. They really do a good job with a lot of these characters. 

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I really do like Ike and think he earned his role of paragon, unlike some people. Ike really encourages others to develop but he also develops himself and he's stubborn and set in what he thinks is right, which makes him really entertaining to watch. Also I really love him demanding answers from higher-ups and them just having no clue what to do about the way he talks to them xD

True, but at the same time, this makes Ike do some of the most stupid things, one of which not only would have resulted in execution, but also causing everything they were fighting for to break down just like that. 

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

He isnt shown to be a paragon as effectively in RD but he still is one. That's why it could have been far more interesting than it was to see him against Micaiah, as she's a paragon too. Of course it wasn't handled very well so we lost the potential of what that could have been, but I really think it would have been fun to see two majorly influential characters go toe-to-toe, especially since one of them was forced to do it.

The paragon would have worked if Micaiah had much more development, but the fact that she was competing against a character that was a hero last game, yeah... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2017 at 9:43 PM, Glennstavos said:

So I like Chrom because unlike other Lords he becomes a paragon though story progression rather than being born with a heart of gold. He constantly admits he'll never be the voice of peace and progressiv-ism that his older sister was, and his want of bringing death to people like Gangrel intimidates him because of the example set forth by his war-mongering father. His exchange with Robin in chapter 6 is excellently written:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: Oh, hi, Robin. Just...dueling with some unpleasant thoughts... Tomorrow we march to Regna Ferox to request additional soldiers. But there's something you should know first. ...Not everything Gangrel said was a lie. The last exalt, my father, waged war on Plegia for many years. The violence... It was a brutal campaign, ending only with his death 15 years ago. Plegia rightfully remembers their suffering, but his war was no kinder to his own people. As the fighting dragged on, our army became more and more diminished. Farmers who could barely wield a pitchfork were conscripted and sent to their deaths. Soon there was no food at all, and the kingdom began to collapse. I was young, but I remember those dark times. ...I know how they affected Emmeryn. 

Robin: Such an experience would change anyone.

Chrom: Indeed. When our father died before her 10th year, he left her quite the legacy... Plegia's desire for vengeance... Our own people's unbridled rage... My sister became a target for blame from all sides. Her own subjects began to hurl insults—and stones. She still bears the scar from one... But she never let them see her pain. Only Lissa and I understood. 

Robin: It must have been so hard...

Chrom: I cannot claim to know how she does it, Robin. I could never greet such hostility with warmth and patience. While our people mocked and vilified her, she reached out and healed them. She brought soldiers home to their families. She ended the war. And when Ylisse's spirit was mended and the people "forgave" her? ...She never resented them for it. She represents the best of the halidom—the part most worth protecting. She IS peace. But some men would take advantage of that. Men like King Gangrel. The day he understands peace will be the day death gives it to him. ...So perhaps I must be death's agent. Emmeryn would never order him killed, nor would I wish her to.

 

Then we see Chrom has grown into his role as a world leader in chapter 12, after a two year time skip he witnesses the invading Valmese forces and says:

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: These savages will never listen to reason. Everyone: prepare to engage!
Frederick: Milord, are you certain? Another war...
Chrom: I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

Unfortunately, the shift doesn't last. In the game's final chapters, it is revealed that the world can only be saved through the sacrifice of his friend, Robin. Chrom falters here, refusing to let Robin die, even after Robin shows his consent.

  Reveal hidden contents

Chrom: Robin would cease to be?! No. We'll find another way.
Robin: Chrom, wait. You're not thinking clearly. Think about what your sister would have wanted.
Chrom: Emmeryn would never have asked you to do this!
Robin: What is one life, when weighed against millions?
Chrom: Stop it! You're one of us. You'll ALWAYS be one of us. There has to be another way. We just have to find it. Promise me, Robin. Promise me you won't do this!

While you could argue the very concept of sacrificing somebody other than yourself would go against a paragon's core philosophies, this sort of implies Chrom has learned nothing from his sister's example of valuing the lives of many over yourself or the people you care about. If you consider that the game ends with a good ending for Robin even when he does sacrifice himself, then the game is implying sacrifice is never the answer - and Emmeryn was in the wrong despite being the catalyst for a quick end to war in the first Act. To be clear, Chrom did face an impossible, unfair choice. But it wasn't his choice to make, it was Robin's. And I just wish there was a scene in which Chrom realizes he reacted rashly at that moment. Good example of Paragon, even to a Paragon's faults of never accepting sacrifice, but it comes at the cost of the game's narrative cohesion on the subject of sacrifice.

The way I see Chrom's refusal to sacrifice Robin as, while Robin and Lucina would inevitably know when you have to sacrifice the 1 for the 1000, Chrom is the type that refuses to walk out without 1001. He insists on finding another way, and, as king, he could theoretically dedicate significant resources to that goal with uncertain results, and Grima's return may not be a certainty. It's still selfish, but I like seeing him as the guy who refuses to give up and accept a no win scenario. 

12 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's pretty much the main reason. I don't think anyone has any other reason to dislike Tiki other than the fact that now she would look great in a bikini. And she does, if Heroes Summer Tiki has anything to say about it. 

cab4aa1ceb1ff67624e85484c9990fb7--fire-emblem-awakening-plan.jpg.90c58fc4eb72da3876e8600e87c8d322.jpg

Well, any of the royal bloodline could also work. Though, seriously, I like Tiki better in Awakening rather than in SD where she was...there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Well, any of the royal bloodline could also work. Though, seriously, I like Tiki better in Awakening rather than in SD where she was...there. 

I think Tiki is better explained in Mystery. She's more powerful than even her mother possibly, but she's too young to harness her massive power, so she has to be sealed/limited in her wakeful hours to keep it from crushing her.

The presence of supports in Awakening might be why Tiki fits better into that game for you. Their nonexistence in SD and its very traditional minimal storytelling (with Tiki even being missable) means the characters feel less bound to the journey and cohesively connected.

Tiki wasn't that important to Awakening though either. She hands over a gemstone, explains the Fire Emblem, and that's it. She has her Paralogue and some Future Past stuff (which really isn't part of the base game at all), and that's all of her plot role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think Tiki is better explained in Mystery. She's more powerful than even her mother possibly, but she's too young to harness her massive power, so she has to be sealed/limited in her wakeful hours to keep it from crushing her.

The presence of supports in Awakening might be why Tiki fits better into that game for you. Their nonexistence in SD and its very traditional minimal storytelling (with Tiki even being missable) means the characters feel less bound to the journey and cohesively connected.

Tiki wasn't that important to Awakening though either. She hands over a gemstone, explains the Fire Emblem, and that's it. She has her Paralogue and some Future Past stuff (which really isn't part of the base game at all), and that's all of her plot role.

No, she's never really important, but at least she has the tragedy of losing those she's cared for. As a kid, she acted like a kid and slept. I think adult Tiki has more depth which is kind of a given since she has the experiences of young TIki with more piled on top of it though supports help bring that out, its seems unlikely that young Tiki would be better outside of being cute and loli status. Which is another thing, she's a mankete that actually grew up. We get to see what happened to that little kid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think Tiki is better explained in Mystery. She's more powerful than even her mother possibly, but she's too young to harness her massive power, so she has to be sealed/limited in her wakeful hours to keep it from crushing her.

The Future Past Tiki essentially proves that she has power rivaling that of Naga given that she takes Naga's role after she "dies" at Grima's hand after Naga was also killed. However, I assume the only reason that Tiki never shows how strong she is outside of the story is due to how her physical form has the case of how she spends most of the time sleeping, so I assume her body isn't caught up to its full power, but when she assumed a spiritual form, she had access to her full powers. However, at the very least we understand that Tiki no longer requires the Fire Emblem to be completed to avoid degeneration, and seems almost like she has no destructive urges. 

Although she does tend to no longer hold back on threatening people to eat them if they bother her or just being Anna. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Future Past Tiki essentially proves that she has power rivaling that of Naga given that she takes Naga's role after she "dies" at Grima's hand after Naga was also killed. However, I assume the only reason that Tiki never shows how strong she is outside of the story is due to how her physical form has the case of how she spends most of the time sleeping, so I assume her body isn't caught up to its full power, but when she assumed a spiritual form, she had access to her full powers. However, at the very least we understand that Tiki no longer requires the Fire Emblem to be completed to avoid degeneration, and seems almost like she has no destructive urges. 

Although she does tend to no longer hold back on threatening people to eat them if they bother her or just being Anna. 

I think that was more of her inheriting Naga's power. There does seem to be a case for Naga being simply a title so the Naga in Awakening may not even be her mother. Hence, Grima could not destroy the power despite being able to kill the being who controlled it.

Edited by Arthur97

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

I think that was more of her inheriting Naga's power. There does seem to be a case for Naga being simply a title so the Naga in Awakening may not even be her mother. Hence, Grima could not destroy the power despite being able to kill the being who controlled it.

Tiki inherited the title, but being Naga's blood and power, it cannot be denied that only Tiki's own power can be worthy of inheriting the title for that very reason. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...