Warrior vs Sniper

[StrGateHusky]

I was playing through Blazing Blade and thought to myself that all Archer options don't seem to be all that great, Rebecca and Will don't seem to have good base stats or growth rates, and even Rath is inferior to the Binding Blade nomads. I did have a bow user in my run of Binding Blade in the form of Lot, and that got me thinking should I use Dorcas or Bartre next time i play through 7.

Edited November 27, 2017 by StrGateHusky

[Bartozio]

I'd say Rath is still better then Bartre and Dorcas tbh. Also, you could just use Geitz or Louise, they're pretty good and don't require any leveling or promotion items.

[Von Ithipathachai]

I used Bartre in my initial playthrough.  It should be noted that he has to be a Level 5 Warrior to recruit Karla in Hector Mode, so if you plan on doing Hector Mode, you might as well put him to good use if you want to recruit everyone.

If you don't care about recruiting everyone, you should try to recruit Geitz and make him your main primary Bow (Rienfleche?) user if you really want it to be a Warrior and not a Sniper, since he already starts with a B Rank in Bows, whereas Dorcas and Bartre have to grind all the way up from E Rank.

That being said, if your main concern is whether you should use Dorcas or Bartre, isn't this thread title a bit misleading?

[Slumber]

Geitz is more or less the best Sniper in FE7. Squishiness aside, Rath is very solid, and he'll probably be a better option than anyone not named Geitz.

[Shadow Mir]

Personally, I'd recommend passing over Dorcas and Bartre - neither of them are good. Use Geitz or Louise instead.

[Punished Dayni]

In terms of bow users, I'd say something like this in practice:

Geitz > Rath (promoted) > Louise > Lyn > Rath (umpromoted) > Dorcas/Bartre > Rebecca > Wil

Geitz has double B rank and good bases and growths to allow him to fit in immediately. Rath has a horse and sword access on promotion, and even before then has good aid to allow him to carry most allies. Louise ends up as high as she does because of her high starting bases, bow rank and her Pent support. Lyn at least has the Mani Katti and bows are more of a supplemental. Dorcas and Bartre have bows as an extra as well, though they're not amazing and can be ignored long term unless you want Karla. Rebecca is an unmpromoted archer, but at least she can get enough speed to consistently double. Wil.... Just, poor Wil.

[StrGateHusky]

3 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I used Bartre in my initial playthrough.  It should be noted that he has to be a Level 5 Warrior to recruit Karla in Hector Mode, so if you plan on doing Hector Mode, you might as well put him to good use if you want to recruit everyone.

If you don't care about recruiting everyone, you should try to recruit Geitz and make him your main primary Bow (Rienfleche?) user if you really want it to be a Warrior and not a Sniper, since he already starts with a B Rank in Bows, whereas Dorcas and Bartre have to grind all the way up from E Rank.

That being said, if your main concern is whether you should use Dorcas or Bartre, isn't this thread title a bit misleading?

I meant to ask if there better than the archers and nomad of 7, and if so whose better, thanks for the reply though.

[Florete]

Rebecca has a horrible start but is good (for an archer) when trained. If you're on normal mode and want a bow user she's a fine choice. For Dorcas vs Bartre, I find Dorcas starts better but Bartre usually turns out better, so whichever of those your prefer. Rath is a solid option and definitely better than Sue in Binding Blade. Geitz is certainly the best out-of-the-gate Bow user in the game, though by the time you get her there Lyn is also good, and don't forget that she comes with D Bows on promotion. Louise is an option, though she'll forever just be mediocre at best. From my experiences, Wil is never good.

[StrGateHusky]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Personally, I'd recommend passing over Dorcas and Bartre - neither of them are good. Use Geitz or Louise instead.

My cryptonian forefathers taught me to stay away from pre-promotes, I never really considered any apart from Pent and Jaffar, thanks for the advice.

[StrGateHusky]

3 minutes ago, Florete said:

Rebecca has a horrible start but is good (for an archer) when trained. If you're on normal mode and want a bow user she's a fine choice. For Dorcas vs Bartre, I find Dorcas starts better but Bartre usually turns out better, so whichever of those your prefer. Rath is a solid option and definitely better than Sue in Binding Blade. Geitz is certainly the best out-of-the-gate Bow user in the game, though by the time you get her there Lyn is also good, and don't forget that she comes with D Bows on promotion. Louise is an option, though she'll forever just be mediocre at best. From my experiences, Wil is never good.

This run I decided to just use Erk over any of them because in my experience he's made a good dodge tank, and Rather must just get bad levels for me cause my Sue was dank.

[Slumber]

30 minutes ago, StrGateHusky said:

My cryptonian forefathers taught me to stay away from pre-promotes, I never really considered any apart from Pent and Jaffar, thanks for the advice.

That's a shame.

Pent aside, Geitz MIGHT be the most end-game viable pre-promote in the game. It'd be a toss up between Harken and Geitz, IMO, and Harken has a potential replacement in Raven. Geitz... his competition is pretty limited. As both a Warrior and as a bow user.

[Refa]

Why field a warrior when you can field two heroes?  Also...

Geitz     44HP 19Str 13Skl 14Spd 10Lck 12Def 4Res

Harken 42HP 23Str 22Skl 18Spd 12Lck 16Def 11Res

Geitz's 2-3 chapter availability lead in which he does nothing of value are not good enough to make up for Harken beating him in literally everything.  Heck, even growths wise his only significant advantages are +15%Str and +20%Lck (broken!), so I don't know how it's a toss up in any way.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, Refa said:

Why field a warrior when you can field two heroes?  Also...

Geitz     44HP 19Str 13Skl 14Spd 10Lck 12Def 4Res

Harken 42HP 23Str 22Skl 18Spd 12Lck 16Def 11Res

Geitz's 2-3 chapter availability lead in which he does nothing of value are not good enough to make up for Harken beating him in literally everything.  Heck, even growths wise his only significant advantages are +15%Str and +20%Lck (broken!), so I don't know how it's a toss up in any way.

Because utility-wise, Harken and Raven are going to be Hand Axe bots who occasionally whip out a sword to deal with the rare Axer that shows up in the late-game. Sword access aside, this is something Geitz will do more or less do just as well as Harken.

Harken will beat Geitz in skill, defense and res. He'll beat Geitz in raw speed, but if he wields anything besides a sword, they'll have roughly the same AS, so they're VERY similar here. Geitz will beat Harken in HP, STR and luck. In raw stats, I'd put them pretty close, though Harken gets the better bases.

Geitz does, however, gets Bows, and fills a niche that likely won't be taken up by nearly everyone else in your army. Again, the main reason I'd say the two more or less share the #2 spot for premmie viability is because Geitz likely fills a hole in your army that can't really be filled nearly as well by anyone else. Harken does everything he does well, but the things he does are probably being done by most of your units in some form or another.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Slumber

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Because utility-wise, Harken and Raven are going to be Hand Axe bots who occasionally whip out a sword to deal with the rare Axer that shows up in the late-game. Sword access aside, this is something Geitz will do more or less do just as well as Harken.

Harken will beat Geitz in skill, defense and res. He'll beat Geitz in speed, but if he wields anything heavier than a Hand Axe, they have the same AS, so they're VERY similar here. Geitz will beat Harken in HP, STR and luck. In raw stats, I'd put them pretty close, though Harken gets the better bases.

Geitz does, however, gets Bows, and fills a niche that likely won't be taken up by nearly everyone else in your army. Again, the main reason I'd say the two more or less share the #2 spot for premmie viability is because Geitz likely fills a hole in your army that can't really be filled nearly as well by anyone else. Harken does everything he does well, but the things he does are probably being done by most of your units in some form or another.

1) Geitz only has 2 more con than Harken, so he'll still have 2 less AS in the best case scenario.  Anyways, Harken will rarely (never?) need to wield something heavier than a Hand Axe, so the lead is generally even larger in Harken's favour.  BTW, Geitz needs 8 levels to match Harken's base Str, and he won't be beating Harken in Str until level 16, so you saying that he's beating Harken in Str is...misleading, to say the least.

2) Bows are not a valuable enough niche that make Geitz comparable to Harken in terms of usefulness.  

3) Harken's most valuable niche is being a physical unit with good parameters everywhere AND a good Res stat, which is important when the game starts spamming magic users at you later in the game.  The only other unit with similar qualities is Hawkeye, which is not exactly what I would consider most of your units (especially considering Hawkeye is as fast as Marcus, so he doesn't even do that as well as Harken).

[Slumber]

44 minutes ago, Refa said:

1) Geitz only has 2 more con than Harken, so he'll still have 2 less AS in the best case scenario.  Anyways, Harken will rarely (never?) need to wield something heavier than a Hand Axe, so the lead is generally even larger in Harken's favour.  BTW, Geitz needs 8 levels to match Harken's base Str, and he won't be beating Harken in Str until level 16, so you saying that he's beating Harken in Str is...misleading, to say the least.

2) Bows are not a valuable enough niche that make Geitz comparable to Harken in terms of usefulness.  

3) Harken's most valuable niche is being a physical unit with good parameters everywhere AND a good Res stat, which is important when the game starts spamming magic users at you later in the game.  The only other unit with similar qualities is Hawkeye, which is not exactly what I would consider most of your units (especially considering Hawkeye is as fast as Marcus, so he doesn't even do that as well as Harken).

1) At base, yes, Harken has 2 AS more than Geitz with most axes. But fully leveled, Geitz has 20 speed(21 on HHM), Harken has 22(23 on HHM). Give pretty much any Axe, and their AS are identical. Even not fully leveled, Harken only ever has a 2 speed advantage over Geitz at the same levels, which is evened out with most Axes. The best case scenario(And the main weapon Harken would likely have) is a Hand Axe, which Harken loses 1 AS over. So yes, even then, Harken would have an AS advantage over Geitz, but it's a relatively unimpressive advantage of 1. And yes, Geitz needs 8 levels to match Harken in strength, I acknowledged that Harken had the better bases. But they remain competitive until they start capping stats, where Geitz will either completely catch up or take the lead over Harken in Strength.

2) This whole thread is about Bow users. I am more likely to shuffle my army around to make room for somebody who brings something new... ish to the table(Bows) that will eventually pay off than I am to shuffle my army around to make room for ANOTHER Swordie/Hand Axe bot that has more competition for a slot in the last chapters.

3) True, Harken's res does give him some wiggle room and an argument to take a slot in your army, but you generally don't need Harken for that spot. Eliwood/Lyn(Whoever gets the first Heaven Seal. Probably Eliwood for the sake of argument, because he's required more often than not and gets Javelins) will be equally capable Mage killers. Any of the peggies will be better Mage killers. Marcus even does a decent job at it in the late game. Any of your Mages do a fine job Mage-busting. Point is, it's a nice extra for Harken, but it's not a role I generally have a need to think about when I'm filling out my team by the point he arrives.

Also, worth re-clarifying at this point, I am NOT saying "Geitz is better than Harken", and I haven't. I'm putting them on the same level. We're arguing because I think Geitz is more or less just as viable as Harken for end-game. In a thread specifically about Bow users.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Slumber

[SavageVolug]

In my runs I usually end up using one or more of the potential warriors Dorcas, Bartre or Geitz as they hit harder than most if not all Snipers and they're not bow locked, or I use Rath as my bow. As characters I like the archers and snipers in the game but as units I usually prefer the Warriors over Snipers.