Raising Level Caps - Yay or Nay?

[DragonFlames]

I also like the increase of the level caps (especially since that will actually be a free update as opposed to paid DLC) since my Lianna already has level 99 and I just got the Facinna scroll, yet I don't really see a reason to unlock Facinna's true power since its wielder is already capped.
It also may have something to do with the fact that I got Celica and she instantly turned into my favourite character to play as. Holy crap, she's so good!

[Arthur97]

Now that they are doing it, I wonder if they'll use it to fix some of their more questionable stat choices. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Now that they are doing it, I wonder if they'll use it to fix some of their more questionable stat choices. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible.

I also doubt it, unless we eventually go up to 255 and it just fixes by matter of having no more stats to boost.

[r_n]

Surprised it's so marginal. Maybe we'll only reach ~Level 150 by the end of pack 3

[Jedi]

20 hours ago, r_n said:

Surprised it's so marginal. Maybe we'll only reach ~Level 150 by the end of pack 3

I'm surprised, however we could get free updates that increase the cap too, or they could increase it further if there is a wave 2, but that is all theoretical.

[Anomalocaris]

Either way I'm glad they're showing restraint and only giving us 11 more levels instead of 51 like in Hyrule Warriors.

[r_n]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

I'm surprised, however we could get free updates that increase the cap too, or they could increase it further if there is a wave 2, but that is all theoretical.

People keep assuming there will be a wave 2, but I don't think that's guaranteed at all.

And no reason to raise the level cap further after the dlc is done, with free updates.

 

1 hour ago, Anomalocaris said:

Either way I'm glad they're showing restraint and only giving us 11 more levels instead of 51 like in Hyrule Warriors.

Agreed. instead they shoved that absurd incrase into true powered mantle weapons

[Jedi]

58 minutes ago, r_n said:

People keep assuming there will be a wave 2, but I don't think that's guaranteed at all.

And no reason to raise the level cap further after the dlc is done, with free updates.

I'm not assuming I just said If :p

There wasn't a reason to raise the cap in HW or this game to begin with to be fair.

[Arthur97]

34 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I'm not assuming I just said If :p

There wasn't a reason to raise the cap in HW or this game to begin with to be fair.

Well, that way you can't just steamroll all the missions with your maxed out characters. They could theoretically make the enemies harder, but with no sense of progression, I think it hurts it. While HW DLC got some flack on it's difficulty and rightly so, it at least meant that high level characters had a starting out point and progressed with the maps instead of all the early missions getting steamrolled.

[r_n]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

I'm not assuming I just said If :p

There wasn't a reason to raise the cap in HW or this game to begin with to be fair.

The reason was to steadily increase the difficulty of each subsequent map pack which is also why LEgends went back to level 99 and re balanced the 5 maps before raising the caps again for the dlc.

There's no reason to keep raising the cap after the dlc is done

[Legend_of_Zelia]

On 12/10/2017 at 7:13 PM, r_n said:

The reason was to steadily increase the difficulty of each subsequent map pack which is also why LEgends went back to level 99 and re balanced the 5 maps before raising the caps again for the dlc.

There's no reason to keep raising the cap after the dlc is done

Even in raising the level cap in Legends. The DLC maps were still incredibly easy and not that hard. Maybe a mission or 2. But I never had trouble at all with the maps.

But I do think the level cap increasing was good for more gameplay, if you wanted to 100% everything. Plus 255 was a reference to how many rupees you could carry in the original Legend of Zelda NES. 

If the level cap is increased, but the maps are nice and balanced, go ahead, I don't care if they do. But if it's harder then hard like the Twilight and Majora's Mask maps in Hyrule Warriors, then please, don't. lol

[Arthur97]

49 minutes ago, Legend_of_Zelia said:

Even in raising the level cap in Legends. The DLC maps were still incredibly easy and not that hard. Maybe a mission or 2. But I never had trouble at all with the maps.

But I do think the level cap increasing was good for more gameplay, if you wanted to 100% everything. Plus 255 was a reference to how many rupees you could carry in the original Legend of Zelda NES. 

If the level cap is increased, but the maps are nice and balanced, go ahead, I don't care if they do. But if it's harder then hard like the Twilight and Majora's Mask maps in Hyrule Warriors, then please, don't. lol

I think the 255 was more of a programming thing (my brother who is a programmer told me what it was, but it's over my head).

[r_n]

14 hours ago, Legend_of_Zelia said:

Even in raising the level cap in Legends. The DLC maps were still incredibly easy and not that hard. Maybe a mission or 2. But I never had trouble at all with the maps.

But I do think the level cap increasing was good for more gameplay, if you wanted to 100% everything. Plus 255 was a reference to how many rupees you could carry in the original Legend of Zelda NES. 

If the level cap is increased, but the maps are nice and balanced, go ahead, I don't care if they do. But if it's harder then hard like the Twilight and Majora's Mask maps in Hyrule Warriors, then please, don't. lol

Since I also dont care for the idea of overtly hard DLC that requires the level cap or in its ball park, I'm hoping that the 3 history maps per pack acts as a compromise.

A map that starts relatively easy, ends on the high end of moderate (I'm thinking on par with the Fates map?), a map that picks up from there and goes to ~end game (I'm thinking something around the free dlc's pack?) and then an end game map that starts in relatively high levels and ends with the new level cap in mind

Shift the levels up for each subsequent pack, i guess, but always have some easy missions early on so you could feasibly do these out of order if you'd like

[Anomalocaris]

13 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

I think the 255 was more of a programming thing (my brother who is a programmer told me what it was, but it's over my head).

In layman's terms: Computers store information in binary, simply 0's and 1's. The most basic format used for storing variables (such as player level, item quantity, ect.) is a byte, which consists of eight digits of binary. As such, the highest value one byte can store is "11111111", which translates to 255 in decimal. Thus, 255 is a common max value in video games.

It can be higher if they devote more bytes to it (two bytes can store a value of 11111111 11111111, or 65535 in decimal, which is a common damage cap for games whose damage values exceed 255), but values that tend to stay below 100 are typically just given a single byte since anything more would be wasteful.

In the case of Hyrule Warriors' levels, the basic game would only need a max value of 01100011 to store levels up to 99, but that doesn't use all of the byte, so the DLC can increase the level cap all the way to 255 without needing to add in any new bytes, just use what's left of the old one. It's also why in the original Pokemon games, messing around with Missingno. could give you 255 of an item or let you encounter level 255 Pokemon, even though the normal limits on those are 99 and 100 respectively. The potential to go higher is still there.

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

In layman's terms: Computers store information in binary, simply 0's and 1's. The most basic format used for storing variables (such as player level, item quantity, ect.) is a byte, which consists of eight digits of binary. As such, the highest value one byte can store is "11111111", which translates to 255 in decimal. Thus, 255 is a common max value in video games.

It can be higher if they devote more bytes to it (two bytes can store a value of 11111111 11111111, or 65535 in decimal, which is a common damage cap for games whose damage values exceed 255), but values that tend to stay below 100 are typically just given a single byte since anything more would be wasteful.

In the case of Hyrule Warriors' levels, the basic game would only need a max value of 01100011 to store levels up to 99, but that doesn't use all of the byte, so the DLC can increase the level cap all the way to 255 without needing to add in any new bytes, just use what's left of the old one. It's also why in the original Pokemon games, messing around with Missingno. could give you 255 of an item or let you encounter level 255 Pokemon, even though the normal limits on those are 99 and 100 respectively. The potential to go higher is still there.

Yep, that sounds like what he was spouting which actually probably explains the original Zelda's ruppee limit. So they were connected, just not directly.

[Emblem Blade]

On 12/9/2017 at 12:03 PM, Arthur97 said:

Now that they are doing it, I wonder if they'll use it to fix some of their more questionable stat choices. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible.

'Questionable' Stat Choices, as in stat caps?  Some users have at least one stat that didn't need to go above one point (Freddy has no need for Luck or Resistance and those are his two lowest stats while Takumi's Magic Stat is completely pointless as it maxes out at 3) and if this is what you're aiming at, I can agree.  Tome-Users generally need no Strength (it becomes pointless as with Topsy-Turvy, you can't really defeat any enemy without a bonus damage attribute.  Any melee character who can't use staves shouldn't really need to have a Magic Stat that goes above 5 points (thank you Takumi for clearing that point up).  There's no point dumping boosts into increased stats as once a promoted character hits Level 70, they are capable of defeating generic enemies in little time and the only reason to level up further is to be able to defeat named characters quicker.  There's the Antitriangle to reverse the weapon advantage/disadvantage for you and bonus damage to overcome other barriers.  For characters who's primary attack stat is completely pathetic when compared to the other offensive stat (Lissa and Sakura who have higher Magic compared to Strength), there's the Topsy-Turvy attribute despite it meaning that your damage is reduced based on your opponent's Resistance stat and the only enemies that you'll struggle to defeat at that point are Tome-Users.  If your statement is mainly centered on why some characters have higher stats than they normally should, that's out of our range of understanding unless we were all to look at how class stats were since FE came out.

What would be needed more than alterations to stats is giving each character a completely separate or unique moveset so we don't just have a bunch of carbon copies that aren't needed (outside of showing who comes from what game and really, at least the main series for the Warrior franchise kept true to this for the most part).  Rowan/Lianna, Chrom/Lucina, Frederick/Xander (they share a few similar default attacks), Ryoma/Owain, Anna/Sakura/Takumi/Niles (all who are most likely going to share the same basic moveset), Lyn/Navarre, Marth/Celica and Leo/Elise.  With the upcoming DLC packs, I'm most likely guessing that Azura and Oboro are going to share the same basic moveset (both being ground Lance-users) and Robin is going to share his basic moveset with Linda and Tharja, Camilla/Minerva meaning that the only two who might be completely different from the rest being Tiki and Olivia (possibly).  I'm surprised that the Bridal costume for Lucina didn't change her designated weapon of choice to Lance or Bow.

On 12/13/2017 at 1:29 PM, r_n said:

Since I also dont care for the idea of overtly hard DLC that requires the level cap or in its ball park, I'm hoping that the 3 history maps per pack acts as a compromise.

A map that starts relatively easy, ends on the high end of moderate (I'm thinking on par with the Fates map?), a map that picks up from there and goes to ~end game (I'm thinking something around the free dlc's pack?) and then an end game map that starts in relatively high levels and ends with the new level cap in mind

Shift the levels up for each subsequent pack, i guess, but always have some easy missions early on so you could feasibly do these out of order if you'd like

Hopefully the three new History Maps add some more diversity or challenges to the game outside of the 'adding more characters' content.

That's naturally how History Maps function, early missions are relatively easy but after you clear the map the first time the difficulty gradually goes up.  Or perhaps after clearing a map (non-Story Mode) there's the option to have the ability to replay that map from the start but have the difficulty level be the same as the last mission you finished (which would be the one required to clear the Map initially).  There are ways to mess up the weakness of being lower leveled compared to the enemies yet still get challenged by how cheap the AI can act.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Emblem Blade

[r_n]

I'm sure they'll import some challenges over from other musous to spice things up

[Emblem Blade]

1 minute ago, r_n said:

I'm sure they'll import some challenges over from other musous to spice things up

I don't know what everyone's thoughts for how History Mode was hard (as everyone most likely had different barriers that required at least one extra attempt), but the only challenges that made me come close to deleting my two save files (which are 100% as of now), were the Timed Attack (Bows-Only), Invisible Ties Axe-Only mission (seriously, just about every enemy is a Sword-User for the most part and by that point we only have three Axe-Users and some of the enemies gun for the Ally Base as their top priority) or the mission on 'Together to the End' where you had to defeat Iago with the restriction of only being healed inside an ally base (gosh, a pretty big map with Summoners (only two thankfully), Rally Commanders and Priests (who'll continuously show up until all the Shadows and Summoners are removed) and the two long-range spamming Sages who bombard your Ally base).  How would something of a challenge like adding elements of the Arena into a non-Arena History Mission for a Map outside of missions that unlock Anna?  After clearing all non-generic enemies you have to clear every other enemy and enemy base before the next wave of enemies show up with at least 3 waves having increasing difficulty as they are cleared, it makes the game a bit closer to Apotheosis (and honestly, this is how the maps involving getting Anna operate and so far there's only five missions that feature this right now) but at least it isn't the basic bread and butter missions that each Map generally has.

[Arthur97]

2 hours ago, Emblem Blade said:

'Questionable' Stat Choices, as in stat caps?  Some users have at least one stat that didn't need to go above one point (Freddy has no need for Luck or Resistance and those are his two lowest stats while Takumi's Magic Stat is completely pointless as it maxes out at 3) and if this is what you're aiming at, I can agree.  Tome-Users generally need no Strength (it becomes pointless as with Topsy-Turvy, you can't really defeat any enemy without a bonus damage attribute.  Any melee character who can't use staves shouldn't really need to have a Magic Stat that goes above 5 points (thank you Takumi for clearing that point up).  There's no point dumping boosts into increased stats as once a promoted character hits Level 70, they are capable of defeating generic enemies in little time and the only reason to level up further is to be able to defeat named characters quicker.  There's the Antitriangle to reverse the weapon advantage/disadvantage for you and bonus damage to overcome other barriers.  For characters who's primary attack stat is completely pathetic when compared to the other offensive stat (Lissa and Sakura who have higher Magic compared to Strength), there's the Topsy-Turvy attribute despite it meaning that your damage is reduced based on your opponent's Resistance stat and the only enemies that you'll struggle to defeat at that point are Tome-Users.  If your statement is mainly centered on why some characters have higher stats than they normally should, that's out of our range of understanding unless we were all to look at how class stats were since FE came out.

What would be needed more than alterations to stats is giving each character a completely separate or unique moveset so we don't just have a bunch of carbon copies that aren't needed (outside of showing who comes from what game and really, at least the main series for the Warrior franchise kept true to this for the most part).  Rowan/Lianna, Chrom/Lucina, Frederick/Xander (they share a few similar default attacks), Ryoma/Owain, Anna/Sakura/Takumi/Niles (all who are most likely going to share the same basic moveset), Lyn/Navarre, Marth/Celica and Leo/Elise.  With the upcoming DLC packs, I'm most likely guessing that Azura and Oboro are going to share the same basic moveset (both being ground Lance-users) and Robin is going to share his basic moveset with Linda and Tharja, Camilla/Minerva meaning that the only two who might be completely different from the rest being Tiki and Olivia (possibly).  I'm surprised that the Bridal costume for Lucina didn't change her designated weapon of choice to Lance or Bow.

I moreso meant stuff like Ryoma being one of the strongest sword users despite being in the swordmaster vein which is known more for speed and skill than raw power. And I wouldn't say that a high alternate attack stat is a bad thing. Robin should have high strength, and it's high enough to be used if it's a map with high resistance enemies. Cordelia and Celica for example have the same strength and magic (not to each other, to the other stat) meaning they can run either magic or physical damage depending on what you need. 

[Emblem Blade]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

I moreso meant stuff like Ryoma being one of the strongest sword users despite being in the swordmaster vein which is known more for speed and skill than raw power. And I wouldn't say that a high alternate attack stat is a bad thing. Robin should have high strength, and it's high enough to be used if it's a map with high resistance enemies. Cordelia and Celica for example have the same strength and magic (not to each other, to the other stat) meaning they can run either magic or physical damage depending on what you need. 

It's still pretty much the same as back in Fates.  Ryoma had one of the highest non-statue affected Strength Stats for a supporting main character and here he again has one of the highest Strength stats but not the highest.  His strength was higher than Xander yet pretty much close to being near Camilla's.  You can't really complain about some characters having higher stats than their class since Fire Emblem has traditionally had such traits for a long time.  In that case, Frederick should by all means have the highest Strength and Defense (he does have the highest Defense of all playable units so far) of all playable characters as the Great Knight class has had that tradition for quite some time on top of his Guardian Knight promotion having the dead highest HP and Defense but having what could be said the worst Luck and Resistance to prevent him from being the greatest tank.  However Camilla has the highest Strength of all promoted level capped units, being 106.  What makes Robin's Strength stat useless is that while he can use it to bypass enemy Tome-Users (he can simply have Wingslayer to get rid of the Sky/Pegasus class line without needing Topsy-Turvy) as he has a pretty great Strength Stat, is that said stat was mainly used for his ability to use swords in his own game, which he can't use at all.  Celica's rather perfectly tied stats (Strength/Magic, Skill/Speed and Defense/Resistance) resembles how she performs in Echoes, being an attacker (both physical and magical) while being a supporting healer as well.  Likewise, Corrin has a pretty great Magic Stat yet while she can use Staves (which oddly she shouldn't be able to use as a Nohr Noble) she can't use 'Stones' (which she could use no matter what in Fates) or Tomes (one of the three weapons she could use as a Nohr Noble).  Really, stats are the least reasonable case to be changed as their are other things that are apparently off.  Most of the unique weapons that had additional effects are removed (Parallel and Exalted Falchion lack the HP recovery, Raijinto and Siegfried lack their innate Strength (Raijinto) and Defense (Siegfried) boosts and only Ryoma has a ranged attack that he can use normally while Xander's is only during his Dual Special and Awakening Mode finisher when his duration ends, Spellbane Yumi doesn't do extra damage to Tome-Users...).  Also, Anna's base class uses the wrong weapon as the Trickster class should be using Swords, not Bows.  Lucina's alt costume (Bride) doesn't alter her weapon of choice (she's still locked to Swords only).  The list can go on but I'm not going to bother making a page long explanation.

*Yawns*  What would be nicer is that instead of having stats increase with an increased Level cap (the stats of promoted units at Level 99 are already good enough as anything more basically 'destroys' any possible challenge a CPU could provide as the Crests provide additional buffs), is that the non-inherent attributes on weapons were upgraded.  Ex. Tiki's Strong 4 attribute on her Brave Stone got buffed to do some more damage if she were Level 110 whereas at Level 99, the attribute remains the same without being boosted.

[John Denver Fan]

From my experience from another game in the Warriors series, Hyrule Warriors, I would like to see it, you can make them stronger than the level 99. I also think that there will be updates to this game that allows a higher maximum level. I think it would be a good addition indeed.

[Anomalocaris]

57 minutes ago, John Denver Fan said:

From my experience from another game in the Warriors series, Hyrule Warriors, I would like to see it, you can make them stronger than the level 99. I also think that there will be updates to this game that allows a higher maximum level. I think it would be a good addition indeed.

We already know that the update coming in two days will raise the level cap to 110.