Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[Shinori]

8 hours ago, Michelaar said:

Because he ignores Mack, who just voted on him, and just switches to another person. And wouldn't you know, someone unvoted just before him. 

Ass reasoning for a vote reason.  Why the fuck would I leave my vote on Mack after he responded and I got a reaction that was favorable.  Why would I respond to mack's reasoning for voting me when it is literally "I think one of the 4 people who voted me on page 2/3 is scum and Shinori WHO STATED HE WAS SHEEPING IN HIS VOTE has the weakest reasoning because he's sheeping the vote"  Like really, what do you expect me to respond to that with? There are no counter arguments for me to state to mack, My vote was a weak sheeping vote fishing for a reaction.

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Hello, Bartozio.

Agree with Michelaar about the timing of Shinori's switch, just as the Mackc wagon was winding down and he was getting flak for it.

Prims, what's your opinion on Shinori?

Fucking mack wagon winding down, getting flack for it, you kidding me?  I NEVER expected mack to actually be lynched, thought his first post was weird wanted a reaction, got a reaction, also got a lot of other people talking about mack and other parts of the game.  Also getting flak for it? The other person who "gave me flak" was mack and his reasoning for voting me IS poor and there is literally NOTHING I could, or SHOULD respond to his vote with.

3 hours ago, Bartozio said:

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

I'll probably change my vote if I get a satisfactory answer for my question, but until then this bothers me more then other people.

@Magnificence Incarnate I'll post full thoughts on people in a bit, but to give the short version for now: I feel Ken and Shinori stand out as the most suspicous by far right now (I already posted my reasons for this really), not agreeing with the case on BBM, his voteswitch made enough sense to me. Prims and Mack feel more like null to me right now, but I'll go into detail about that more later.

I didn't mind your initial case on me, but after that it felt like you were tunneling me quite a bit. You unvoted now and are posting your thoughts on other people, but I'm not really getting who you actually do find sus right now (since you're mostly saying you don't like other cases). If you had to lynch someone right now, would it still be me, or do you also have other scum reads right now?

Poor reasoning.  Literally the question asked to me up above in his previous post was asking me about my opinion on BBM's post, he thinks I didn't like his initial post on Mack which I never said so that's literally a vote on me based on something in his own head.  On one hand it's funny as fuck because he literally goes "Yeah Shino said this even though he didn't, I find that scummy" On the other hand I see nothing but poor logic.

2 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

I am satisfied with Mack's answers... for now. I don't feel too suspicious about Ken, he just seems like a guy who doesn't like others telling him what to do, which might make him more suspicious but doesn't set off any more alarms. So for right now:

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

I agree with Michelaar and Bart; the timing on your votes is suspicious. Do you have a good explanation for this?

I'm sorry was I expected to leave my vote on Mack who had responded, given reasons for his initial post, and had more content?  I do not understand the logic of "Shino vote swapped at a weird time." THAT ENTIRE ARGUMENT seems to imply that I should have left my vote on Mack even though after his reactions I was town reading him.

 @ michelaar You literally wanted me to make a post saying "I see mack's vote." And that's it? That makes everything better? Are you kidding me?  How in the fuck does that even work in your head?

For what it matters I think it was in Kemono mafia, as well as other past mafias, but I don't generally stop to make a massive big deal out of 1 person voting me unless it's extremely scummy or terrible logic, which Mack's post wasn't. I will most of the time ignore it unless I need to respond to it because it has questions or something in it.  I see literally zero reason to make a post responding to mack's vote saying "I see your vote, okay."

All of these votes on me are pretty poor on me with weak logic. Also liked BBM's most recent post but at the time of my BBM vote I stilll stand by what I had said, maybe I'm just blind during my reread/ISO of BBM but I don't think there had been much there, I could definitely have missed something as I do that a lot.  Point is at the moment I like his recent posts, and fuck these people with poor logic voting me.

##Unvote:

Gonna go reread Baldrick, mich and bartozio to see who I'm voting.

[Michelaar]

You might disagree with my reasoning, but that doesn't mean I can't find it suspicious. The timing is hilariously suspicious, and you getting flustered about this confirms it.

[Shinori]

I'm not even flustered, it's just poor reasoning and poor logic. Like I don't understand why ANYONE would make a post just to acknowledge that they have one vote on them.  You also seem to imply you expected my vote to stay on Mack, Why would I keep my vote on mack?  I want to hear that from you.

 

Because saying that the timing of a vote swap is suspicions means you felt they should have just note vote swapped, so why should I have kept my vote on Mack?

[SB.]

Votals 1.5

Shinori (4): Michelaar, Mackc2, Bartozio, SullyMcGully
Ken Masters (2): Baldrick, Prims
BBM (1): kirsche
Mackc2 (1): Refa
Bartozio (1):  Via
Refa (1): Ken Masters
SullyMcGully (1): Marth

Not Voting (2): BBM, Shinori 

With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer. You have 29 hours and 50 minutes left in the day.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SB.

[Viridianveil]

Is it too late to step in?

[Refa]

Nope, feel free to PM SB asking him if you can sign up as the hidden player (don't worry, he'll understand).

[BBM]

Shinori's post kind of reads like scum getting mad about people voting him for reasons he interprets as shitty but also I was just mad at people for voting me due to not reading my posts properly last night so idk. Plus Shinori is just more reactionary to stuff like this regardless of alignment.

I think I originally did interpret Shinori's bit about not liking my initial vote as not liking my initial Marth vote as opposed to not liking my initial vote of the game on Mack, but then when I read Bartozio's vote I didn't go back to reread Shinori's post and just assumed Bartozio was correct about that. But it does bother me that Shinori jumps to talking about poor logic and what not when the most likely thing is just people misreading what Shinori meant.

 

[Michelaar]

27 minutes ago, Shinori said:

I'm not even flustered, it's just poor reasoning and poor logic. Like I don't understand why ANYONE would make a post just to acknowledge that they have one vote on them.  You also seem to imply you expected my vote to stay on Mack, Why would I keep my vote on mack?  I want to hear that from you.

 

Because saying that the timing of a vote swap is suspicions means you felt they should have just note vote swapped, so why should I have kept my vote on Mack?

You actually have a point there since I can't think of a single reason, even though the timing just feels fishy to me. But you immediatly calling me scum because of this is just uncalled for and doesn't make a lot of sense. But fine, I was going to reread soon anyway and cast my vote. 

 

## Unvote

[SullyMcGully]

Alrighty.

@Shinori While I know the first votes on you had little basis, I said when I posted it that I was doing it because the other two suspects (Mack and Ken) weren't setting off any alarms. You were just somebody with slightly suspicious activity that I wanted to hear you explain, which is why I voted you to pressure you into responding.

HOWEVER 

Now that you have replied, I'm a little bit more suspicious about you. I just needed a simple explanation of your actions, and judging by the wording in Bart's post, that's all he wanted as well. What we got were a series of very charged posts telling us how illogical we were for wanting answers. Seems like the nice, town-friendly thing to do would have been to calmly explain why you did what you did.

The extra emotional force would be understandable if you were talking to people you think are scum. But you haven't posted any reads yet, so your reaction is kind of confusing. You seem more defensive than what our questions merited. Which one of us do you think is scum trying to get you mislynched? Because when you attack everybody's intelligence like that, you seem less like a team player and more like scum yourself.

You told mich you weren't flustered, and I think that's true. You aren't flustered, you're angry. Whether this is just your personality or you trying to hide something is something I'm trying to figure out. 

I'm rereading and considering BBM's wagon as well as the other players, but until I come to a conclusion there, I'm keeping my vote where it is.

[SullyMcGully]

For everyone who's played with Shinori for longer than me: is this Shinori's usual reaction to accusations?

[Refa]

@Magnificence Incarnate It doesn't make me feel any better about him.  His Michelaar case just doesn't read as genuine to me.  Okay, I can buy him being like "this pressure was a mistake" but I don't like how it still took him several paragraphs after that to change his vote.  Additionally, the part where he says he doesn't specifically want Michelaar to talk more but anyone who's not posting is a bit contradictory considering he voted Michelaar specifically and hasn't even so much as thrown shade at the other guys.

I don't get how anyone felt better after his vote analysis.  He townreads me for giving him a chance to defend himself, townreads BBM because he's uh uh townie, and Sully for having decent reasons to scumread him, which leaves Shinori because he has the weakest reasoning on the wagon.  First of all, I'm pretty sure I did the same thing when I tried to mislynch him as scum, so I don't get how that makes me town.  But forget about that, I don't really have any issues with the town reads themselves but how he's using them to justify a scum read of Shinori.  Firstly, he never explained why he thought that there had to be scum on his wagon.  Secondly, he's not scumreading Shinori for anything other than being the weakest vote on his wagon, which is bad.  If Shinori wasn't voting him, then one of the people he's townreading would have to have the weakest vote on the wagon.

Would sheep Kirsche's point about BBM's voteswap off of Mackc2 being bad.  His explanation doesn't really change my mind because it seems weird that he'd have an actual reason for townreading Mackc2 but then delete that and replace it with a reason that he's not townreading Mackc2 for, and then justify a voteswap with the latter.  How is this not bothering anyone else? BBM, why does Via having other content make his Bartozio vote better than Marth's?  It would still be a bad vote in your eyes.

@Magnificence Incarnate Not gonna lie, I'm kind of salty that you're only just now agreeing with my Sully reasoning, especially after everyone was like NO REFA HE'S NOT SCUM.  I agree that his vote on Shinori is bad, but what honestly bothers me more is that his post quality seems a lot more confident than earlier.  Does this switch read as natural to you?

@Shinori If Mackc2's reasoning for voting you is poor, why do you think he's town anyways?

I don't know where else to put this because I haven't talked about these people in a while despite being suspicious of them earlier, but I want to at least give updated thoughts:

-Earlier I mentioned Prims was weirdly self deprecating, but his later posts didn't really give me the same impression which is why I didn't push him on those.  I'm a bit wary that he read my post and conscientiously decided to stop doing that (really regret posting that until he made more posts, honestly), but none of his other posts are bothering me.

-Marth's Bart vote and him ignoring any followups from Bart was what was bothering me about the slot, but his explanation here is good.  His early content is still weirdly barren for me, but his later stuff is good enough (specifically, his Prims and Shinori reads).

-Ken M. flaking is making me salty because I can't update my read on him.

-I don't get the cases on Shinori at all.  What has he done that makes him scum?

[Refa]

Actually, I should clarify my Shinori position further.  I'd sheep Michelaar's case at the time he made it but Shinori's explanation was good.  BBM and Bartozio had a different case, but it was based on something Bart read incorrectly.  Him being salty isn't alignment indicative, but there isn't any scum read on him that still holds up.

[Michelaar]

@Magnificence Incarnate

 May I ask who this 'SMcG' person is that you placed your vote on?

[Refa]

Sully McGully

[Zkirsche]

Don't really have a lot of time to post right now, will address everything later. Just a few things:

@BBM: Do you have anything more to say about his Shinori vote other than that it was fine? What about the logic he uses to defend the others on his wagon? I feel like the way Refa goes about looking at his scumread is the way town would go about it: his close analysis of his wagon analysis for example is something I would expect. The way you went about it just feels off. Even now you seem to be defending Shinori but you still find something off about him. I'm just having a hard time keeping track of your reads this game which is putting me off.

@Shinori: My vote wasn't just off of disagreeing with him, especially considering I was townreading Mack and was wary of Marth/Magnificence Incarnate.

@Prims: I wanted to hear more from Marth moreso than I had an actual read on him. None of my reads were that strong going into that post, BBM was just the most egregious. I may have voted him regardless because of his early Mack stuff but can't say for sure since my opinion may have swayed more to pressure say, Marth. I'll read his new stuff later after my shift but it looks like the Marth/BBM interactions aren't going to be as interesting as I thought they might, at a glance.

[Bartozio]

Okay, to clear this up

On 28-11-2017 at 7:55 AM, BBM said:

actually I totally missed mack's post above mine and it's more worthy of a vote although I still want Prims to answer my question #bbmlevelreadingskills

##Unvote, ##Vote: Mack

The vote is either a gut feeling (based on what exactly, his confirmation post???) or a random/joke vote, but it can't be both. It kind of reads like backpedaling

This was BBM's first real vote, apart from maybe a vote on prims to ask him about a read, but I assumed Shinori wouldn't count that one.

On 28-11-2017 at 5:22 PM, Shinori said:

Sheeping the mack vote: It really can't be both RVS and gut I feel.  Either something happened and you legit rut readed it as something, or it was a random vote.

##Vote: Mack

Here Shinori sheeps said vote.

14 hours ago, Shinori said:

Overall after seeing Mack's more recent posts I'm feeling better about him, upon my reread I really disliked the mich vote but the following reasoning made me feel better about that situation.

##Unvote:

 

I can understand and agree with the fact that Ken is refusing to post reads is bad but do you truly believe he is scum or is this some hard-headed policy vote you are doing? And if so what other targets would you prefer to lynch? I've seen you post some thoughts on players. Specifically about sully and Ren(? I think?) but are those you're "Would lynch these people today" if phase was ending in like an hour? 

I actually don't like BBM's vote on Marth. It seems really off an outta place to me and I have this gut feeling about it being bad.  I haven't really been getting a scum read from Marth's posts that have been made.  He honestly doesn't seem that memorable to me however. 

Also not the biggest fan of Kirsche's vote,  the most I can get from his post is in general he disagree's with BBM and likes mack.

##Vote: BBM

Going over BBM's posts really makes me go with this vote.  I feel like there isn't much substance in his posts, looking over them there is a lot of what reminds me of myself in the Kemono game but I don't feel that is a good thing here.  It feels to me like he is commenting on things happening but isn't actively pushing targets or suspicions.  He actually stated that Marth was one of his suspicions back on page 3 but did nothing about it, not even pose any questions or pressure towards him until just recently.  This seems off to me and I feel that BBM would do better than that.

 

Preview edit: BBM's post about marth has better reasoning than his first initial vote in my opinion but I'm still not liking it overall, partially gut based and partially cause I don't read marth as scum at the moment.

This is what then bothered me. At first it read like he was calling that initial vote bad, even though he sheeped it. I guess this was refering to the marth vote instead though, so my appologies.

##Unvote

1 hour ago, BBM said:

bartozio, do you still think Ken is scummy?

Yes, I think I mentioned that in the same post where I switched votes? Since I don't have a better case to push at the moment

##Vote: Ken Masters

[Viridianveil]

There are too many quotes for me to read that...

[SB.]

I would appreciate it if non-players kept their posts to a minimum.

[Viridianveil]

I'm sorry. I'll stop posting now.

[Refa]

5 hours ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

I had a sneaking suspicion that Prims might be mafia voteparking on Ken, but Ken isn't playing in a way that I can actually defend any of his actions. I didn't like the part where he votes me, BBM questions him, and he says that he was thinking that I would pose a non-starter question as scum. If it was a reaction test, why would you spoil it before I had the chance to reply? Otherwise, I was fine with his argument with BBM, he's talking about BBM's thought process and why that is alignment indicative and I like that. Probably town? I wasn't expecting stuff in the last couple of pages, tbh.

Can you elaborate on the town read portion?  I was pretty surprised to find out Prims' vote was still on Ken M. after all of this time, despite no response from Ken.

[SullyMcGully]

@Magnificence Incarnate after rereading, I don't think I ever properly responded to you asking me about your thoughts on Shinori. Here's the deal:

I know the logic for Michelaar's original Shinori vote was poor, but I also felt like Mack had sufficiently addressed the problems people had with him. I gave my logic for not getting on board with the Ken case already, and Shinori was the only thing that really struck me as odd (I didn't really get any bad vibes from you and BBM, and you two were the only other suspicious people at the time). I figured if I added my vote to the two already there, it would make answering my question a higher priority for Shinori. He did answer, and I got some interesting information from that. If it weren't for the questions the tone of his answers raised, I would be going for my next suspicion, which is

@BBM I'm not suspicious of you for the reasons the others have stated; I don't think your voting choices were as bad as Shinori's (which have already been covered) and your posts since then aren't that scummy to me. However, you've contributed notably little, despite posting often, your posts consist mostly of corrections and clarifications and not unique opinions. I want to know who you are actually reading, and while I'm keeping my vote on Shinori until he answers for his tone, you're my next suspicion should I decide Shinori is innocent.

53 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

@Magnificence Incarnate

 May I ask who this 'SMcG' person is that you placed your vote on?

Everyone can just call me "Sully".

[Michelaar]

By the way, I really don't agree with the cases on Sully to be honest. He seems like a newbie, and I feel like he really is lynch bait at this point. His reasons may be poor, but not nonsensical.

[SullyMcGully]

On Ken I think scum would know how suspicious the lack of reads looks and try to do something about it. Ken's probably just doing his own thing, not necessarily town-friendly but not scummy either. If his first read is a weak one, it'll look scummy but if he has something strong to go off of whenever he rejoins the conversation I wouldn't mind him too much.

[SB.]

Ken Masters has been prodded.

[SullyMcGully]

1 hour ago, Refa said:

...but what honestly bothers me more is that his post quality seems a lot more confident than earlier. 

Glad to hear I'm improving, Mr. Refa!