The case of non-legendary exclusive weapons

[sirmola]

On 12/1/2017 at 9:02 PM, bottlegnomes said:

As for weapons, what bugs me more is that they're rather bland to be frank. While I don't agree with Ayra having Balmung, I would've liked a little more creative of a name. {(Unit Name) (Weapon Type)} just seems like the most boring naming convention in the world. Stout Tomahawk I'm cool with, and glad axes finally have a DC version. Cursed Lance is good too. Some others I'm a little less fond of, like Dark Greatsword and Weirding Tome, but that's just personal preference and the names not jiving with me. As long as they manage to keep older weapons and units from getting completely left behind, which it seems they have every intention of doing, I don't care about newer characters getting fancier stuff.

Apperently, there was a lot of name detail that got lost in translation because japanese text needs far fewer characters to contain the same info than english does, and there is a space limit on item names.

[Shiki]

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Atk is generally a far more useful stat than Spd

Not really. Spd can be used both offensively and defensively while Atk doesn't have that.
A 5 Spd gap is very noticeable especially when it puts you into the range of ~40 Spd. A +6 Atk lead makes Soleil excellent for Brave builds but that's it. Yes yes, ORKO meta but even then the Atk lead can be mitigated with Specials, if not surpassed. Flashing Blade and Wrath are now a thing after all.
So no, saying that Soleil is better than Mia or Ayra is quite subjective if anything.

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

There’s no need to differentiate between weapons and passives, as they are both types of skills;

Thing is what we have seen so far on exclusive skills compared to weapons makes me tolerate them more. We didn't get any exclusive skills since Genealogy though, so maybe my point is moot.

My issue is still that IS is handing out these weapons like candy and don't limit themselves to Legendary weapons which have at least some justification behind their status. All of these weapons are attached to, quite frankly, random units and it leaves the other cast in the dust. 
One thing with Heroes is that you can customize characters and if they just keep releasing more 'unique' characters than regular ones it just limits that factor. I couldn't care less that units end up similar (like Athena <-> Mia, Oboro <-> Lukas etc.) but taking away that is really bothersome.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Talandar

[MrSmokestack]

21 minutes ago, Talandar said:

Not really. Spd can be used both offensively and defensively while Atk doesn't have that.

I'd argue the opposite.

Brave weapons and buffs can ensure the AI doubles when it's their turn, so right off the bat a defending unit needs to be able to bulk two hits without factoring in a possible two more hits. Most defensive units also love to dump their Spd stat if possible, since they can run Quick Riposte, or Follow-Up Ring in Arden's case, to make the Spd difference irrelevant as they will get doubled 0x2 lolololol  before doubling on the counter anyway. Atk in this situation straight up increases your counter damage which can keep units from relying on specials as often to secure a KO. Brave weapon users like Reinhardt and Gordin can be terribly slow too, so they will only benefit from straight Atk increases rather than Life and Death most of the time.

Units that are slow enough to get doubled either have the bulk to live whatever's coming to them, or get KO'd because the enemy is targeting the weaker of their Def or Res. Units that are fast enough to avoid getting doubled, especially ranged units, are too dead to counterattack anyway.

21 minutes ago, Talandar said:

A 5 Spd gap is very noticeable especially when it puts you into the range of ~40 Spd. A +6 Atk lead makes Soleil excellent for Brave builds but that's it. Yes yes, ORKO meta but even then the Atk lead can be mitigated with Specials, if not surpassed. Flashing Blade and Wrath are now a thing after all. So no, saying that Soleil is better than Mia or Ayra is quite subjective if anything.

Soleil also has access to those skills.

Again, I was comparing their stats in a vacuum. In practice all three perform roughly the same.

21 minutes ago, Talandar said:

Thing is what we have seen so far on exclusive skills compared to weapons makes me tolerate them more.

People do take issue with Ayra's Regnal Astra being an exclusive skill though, since it's the only one so far that uses Spd for calculating damage.

21 minutes ago, Talandar said:

My issue is still that IS is handing out these weapons like candy and don't limit themselves to Legendary weapons which have at least some justification behind their status. All of these weapons are attached to, quite frankly, random units and it leaves the other cast in the dust. 
One thing with Heroes is that you can customize characters and if they just keep releasing more 'unique' characters than regular ones it just limits that factor. I couldn't care less that units end up similar (like Athena <-> Mia, Oboro <-> Lukas etc.) but taking away that is really bothersome.

We'll just have to wait and see what IS does in the future. Most of the units with exclusive skills and increased stats we've seen so far are related to CYL in some way and I assume this treatment will continue until New Years or so. It could also be the norm moving forward, but there's no telling for sure.

[Skirt_chaser]

On 02.12.2017 at 2:01 AM, sirmola said:

I think it makes perfect sense for recover ring to be uninheritable, Because It is a reference from an item from fe4 that the game equiped on Alvis and trabant during scenes where they were not supposed to die (it had the obviously unbalanced effect of "restores all hp every turn"). It is impossable tor anyone else to obtain one without hacking. Follow up ring is a reference to an item that arden obtains in a cutscene, which is supposed to make him more usable. It can be transfered to other people, however, so most players use the pawn shop to give it to someone else, even though doing so is really expensive given fe4's mechanics. However, there is a good argument that the intent of that item is for arden to keep it, so i think that follow up ring being uninheritable makes sense from a lore perspective.

Recover ring is a better version of renewal. Follow up ring is like the best B skill in the game, it SHOULD NEVER BE INHERITEBLE. Do you really want Quadhardt that much?

[Ice Dragon]

8 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

There’s no need to differentiate between weapons and passives, as they are both types of skills; take issue with one and you should take issue with the other.

Actually there is. The worth of unique skills on one slot is determined by what the alternatives are and how well other units using the alternatives can compete with units using unique skills.

The thing about passive skills is that their effect is usually simply a better version of another skill that would normally go in that slot. For example, Follow-Up Ring is a similar effect as Weaponbreaker skills or Quick Riposte, but stronger.

Weapons, on the other hand, have abilities that are typically found in a different slot, meaning they effectively have the option of running two different skills in the same slot. Blazing Durandal, for example, gives a unit access to both Heavy Blade and Life and Death (or Swift Sparrow), which is a large advantage over units that don't have Blazing Durandal because using Heavy Blade locks a unit out of using Life and Death, and using Life and Death locks them out of using Heavy Blade.

Mia's Resolute Blade (and any unit with a Wo Dao) cannot compete with Ayra's Ayra's Blade in emulating the effect because Mia running Flashing Blade to do so costs her the ability to run Life and Death or Swift Sparrow (or Distant Counter).

 

8 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Prf passives have a much higher SP cost similar to Prf weapons which again gives their bearers the edge in scoring.

Follow-Up Ring and Recover Ring are worth 200 SP, which is the same as standard skills in their slots and less than Quick Riposte 3 and Renewal 3.

[MrSmokestack]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Follow-Up Ring and Recover Ring are worth 200 SP, which is the same as standard skills in their slots and less than Quick Riposte 3 and Renewal 3.

Woops, I actually meant the three 500 SP special skills Regnal Astra, Ice Mirror, and Black Luna with that statement. But yeah, Sacae/Beorc’s Blessing are 300 SP while Follow-Up/Recover Ring are worth less. Thanks for catching that.

I meant to refer to different types of skills in the sense that, to discuss there being a problem with weapons while dismissing passives and specials is to be selective. The balance behind exclusive skills as a whole should be looked at, not just weapons.

[XRay]

59 minutes ago, Skirt_chaser said:

Follow up ring is like the best B skill in the game, it SHOULD NEVER BE INHERITEBLE. Do you really want Quadhardt that much?

I disagree, although for two different reasons.

First, I want super Reinhardt because he is my husbando.

Second, to balance the game, you can just restrict who can inherit Follow-Up Ring; melee infantry and melee armor need every advantage they can get their hands on. Currently, ranged units completely outclasses melee units, especially infantry and armor ones. If you are a paying player with no character favoritism, there is absolutely no reason to run melee units since ranged units have greater offensive reach without a dip in firepower (in fact, Blade mages have an insanely massive increase in firepower). A unit's score does not even matter since you can just use merges.

Edited December 3, 2017 by XRay

[Hilda]

I dont mind special weapons much, it makes the character unique. However unique skills is something that i dont like at all, it totally undermines the skill inheritence option that makes this game so flexible. I do understand some unique skills like Sigurd BLyn BIke Arvis etc. but the addition of unique Specials outside of Black Knight is shit to be honest.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

If you are a paying player with no character favoritism, there is absolutely no reason to run melee units since ranged units' greater offensive reach without a dip in firepower (in fact, Blade mages have a insanely massive increase in firepower). A unit's score does not even matter since you can just use merges.

Until this week, it did matter because getting the maximum rewards in Arena Assault (5 more Sacred Coins per week than the next highest tier) required you to run a team worth 745 points or higher because there were more players tying for first place than there were slots in the highest reward tier.

[XRay]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Until this week, it did matter because getting the maximum rewards in Arena Assault (5 more Sacred Coins per week than the next highest tier) required you to run a team worth 745 points or higher because there were more players tying for first place than there were slots in the highest reward tier.

Okay, besides the first team in Arena Assault where melee armor units are useful, every other team can be run exclusively with ranged nukes and Dancers/Singers to trivialize the game.

[sirmola]

7 hours ago, Skirt_chaser said:

Recover ring is a better version of renewal. Follow up ring is like the best B skill in the game, it SHOULD NEVER BE INHERITEBLE. Do you really want Quadhardt that much?

I did not mean to imply that the flavor reasons are the only reasons the skill is uninheritable. After all, if you wanted a skill to be inheritable, you could just give it a different flavor. The ballence reasons are also important, if not more important.

 

One odd effect of the flavor they picked is that I am now expecting trabant to come with recover ring if they ever release him, because he has the same item that inspired this skill during his apperence in chapter 5 of fe4.

Edited December 4, 2017 by sirmola

[Prince Endriu]

I wouldnt worry so much about the new units. The meta is constantly chaning for better or for worse depending on your units. 

Recently I pulled two Caedas (presumably one of the worst units in the game). I accidentally merged the two instead of foddering off their weapons - I could kick my ass - even with a +atk boon, her atk is just 41, heavily underpowered, only good against Hector. With the introduction of the weapon refinery, her atk can get to 46, with LaD3 it can even get to 51, a +10 merge (lol) would get her to 55 (at 46spd), and thats not bad at all. This is what I like about IS - making older, already obsolete and forgotten units interesting again.

 

 

 

[Skirt_chaser]

12 hours ago, XRay said:

I disagree, although for two different reasons.

First, I want super Reinhardt because he is my husbando.

Second, to balance the game, you can just restrict who can inherit Follow-Up Ring; melee infantry and melee armor need every advantage they can get their hands on. Currently, ranged units completely outclasses melee units, especially infantry and armor ones. If you are a paying player with no character favoritism, there is absolutely no reason to run melee units since ranged units have greater offensive reach without a dip in firepower (in fact, Blade mages have an insanely massive increase in firepower). A unit's score does not even matter since you can just use merges.

It outclasses Quick Riposte

[Hilda]

3 hours ago, Prince Endriu said:

I wouldnt worry so much about the new units. The meta is constantly chaning for better or for worse depending on your units. 

Recently I pulled two Caedas (presumably one of the worst units in the game). I accidentally merged the two instead of foddering off their weapons - I could kick my ass - even with a +atk boon, her atk is just 41, heavily underpowered, only good against Hector. With the introduction of the weapon refinery, her atk can get to 46, with LaD3 it can even get to 51, a +10 merge (lol) would get her to 55 (at 46spd), and thats not bad at all. This is what I like about IS - making older, already obsolete and forgotten units interesting again.

 

 

 

The meta hasnt changed much for the last... dont know decades lol. Reinhardt is still Reinhardt and BLyn is still BLyn. I have to agree tough the recent Weapon Refinery System is shaking up the meta. BLyn is facing new counters due to it (Dragon Stone users) and Reinhardt too (yes Berkuts Lance is that good).
+ Healers are actually a threat and annoying now and can cost you the run if you dont deal with them (depending on their built) in a timely fashion. But we will have to see, currently there are still alot of Reinhardts/Blyn running around. However i have noticed an increase of Dragonstone users again.

I am also encountering more dagger users with wtf builts that need a different apporach to deal with. I cant bait them anymore and take their hits like before. + counterkill Their debuffs kinda started to matter.

[MrSmokestack]

3 hours ago, Skirt_chaser said:

It outclasses Quick Riposte

And? Hone Cavalry outclasses Hone Atk/Spd on a cavalry team. With the right inheritance restrictions, it’s perfectly possible to have a strong yet balanced skill that provides one underused set of units a distinct advantage over the other movement types. It’s not as though melee infantry and armors would instantly become preferable to ranged, cavalry, and fliers because of one skill, after all.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Skirt_chaser said:

It outclasses Quick Riposte

Quick Riposte can be inherited by everyone, including ranged units. Making Follow-Up Ring inheritable to only melee infantry and melee armor does not outclass Quick Riposte because not everyone can learn it. That is like saying Hone Cavalry outclasses Hone Attack, but Hone Cavalry does not because Hone Cavalry does not work on non ponies.

A ninja out sped me.

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

+ Healers are actually a threat and annoying now and can cost you the run if you dont deal with them (depending on their built) in a timely fashion. But we will have to see, currently there are still alot of Reinhardts/Blyn running around. However i have noticed an increase of Dragonstone users again.

I am working on a triple Elise defense team trying to make that a reality. Players will be so terrified proud after being beaten by the best, cutest little sister on the planet.

Intelligent Systems has finally made healers great again!

Edited December 4, 2017 by XRay

[Hilda]

49 minutes ago, XRay said:

Quick Riposte can be inherited by everyone, including ranged units. Making Follow-Up Ring inheritable to only melee infantry and melee armor does not outclass Quick Riposte because not everyone can learn it. That is like saying Hone Cavalry outclasses Hone Attack, but Hone Cavalry does not because Hone Cavalry does not work on non ponies.

A ninja out sped me.

I am working on a triple Elise defense team trying to make that a reality. Players will be so terrified proud after being beaten by the best, cutest little sister on the planet.

Intelligent Systems has finally made healers great again!

yeah i dont think that offensiv Healers are good for Arena defense. In my opinion the bulky Healers make the run and are the bigger threat.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

yeah i dont think that offensiv Healers are good for Arena defense. In my opinion the bulky Healers make the run and are the bigger threat.

I never had trouble with bulky staff healers before though. I thought they were pretty easy to die with. For me, they usually die to either Reinhardt or BH!Lyn, and ones with balanced Defense and Resistance dies to both.

I am trying to build a triple Elise defense team because she has good offensive stats and you cannot counter attack against her. With Gravity, she can put whole teams in bondage if they clump together and her other copies can swoop in to revenge kill any target that kills her. The player can also try to run, but since they are bounded they will not get very far.