What do you think of this "Best Units" list.

[Flee Fleet!]

https://levelskip.com/rpgs/Fire-Emblem-Sacred-Stones-7-Best-Units

First of all, I'm not making this topic so that people could shit on it. Respectfully disagree with it, if you don't like it.

Anyways, I made this topic just because I wanted to know what's your opinion on it, especially regarding the top three because most people seem to have different opinions of them in this forum.

As for me, I'm just surprised there's no Seth, Artur or Lute, since they're really great units.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Flee Fleet!

[Reality]

The list seems to have been made by someone who enjoys the RPG aspects of the game- hence the trainee units- They also don't seem immune to the "punchiness" of characters with high offense/defense, which is what naturally attracts a lot of people toward Gerik/cormag/epriham, who are often described as strong characters, and meant to be fun to use. 

The only outliers seem to be Joshua/Marisa, which seem to have been included due to different criteria, likely  A: The author enjoyed their animations or B: He considers them an OTP.

Obviously the "punchiness" critea could logically be extended to include Saleh/Seth, but there might be a bias against them due to being mentor-type characters.

I don't like that he uses "strongest" in the description- judging from his profile- this is a user that makes nothing but "top" lists, and while most of them are somewhat informed, all remain personal. His "top 10 moves in gen 1 pokemon" list being a good example - The lack of Explosion / Thunder Wave / Body Slam among others instantly disqualify it as a depiction of competitive RBY , and the focus on gimmicks such as Spore, wrap , fire spin, Clamp (the first being redundant due to eggxecutor's splashability and use of sleep powder, nevermind the hypnosis lead  game - or sleep clause in general - and the later limited to pokemon that would fall to BL in a metagame  still subject to tiering updates) . 

He seems to be weighing "strength" in a vacuum where availability and practically do not matter that much. All 1 range locked charathers to D tier.

Also I think it's important to point out that he advertises the training tower as a feature of the game (lopto ruins? I don't remember)  so his experience with the game is obviously going to be closer to a 2006ish 20/20 stat obsessed fire emblem community than the modern efficiency preferring one. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Reality

[ping]

Tbh, I'm slightly bothered by the claim that trainees end up much stronger than regular units. Their growths are lower than average to make up for the additional levels and promotional gains, so Amelia's and Ross' only big stat lead over other units in their classes is frigging Luck. I mean, if you train Amelia to the same level as Franz, she might be slightly better (she's a bit faster and dodgy-er in exchange for some physical bulk), but it's really just a minor advantage. I suppose it makes her technically better when you ignore Franz's earlygame and assume that every used character will be tower-ground to have the same level as the rest of the party. Not to mention that Lute is better as both Sage and as Mageknight than Ewan, even if you ignore all this.

The way I see it, that article is focussing 100% on the "R" part in SRPG and completely neglects the "S" - it just measures units by how high their Numbers can potentially grow, probably not even counting the different importance of different stats (the author seriously used Sage!Lute's lower skill cap as a reason why she's not as good as Ewan in an answer to a comment), and completely disregarding earlygame performance (like, good luck getting all the villages in Amelia's joining chapter without using Seth, or reliably recruiting Ross and Garcia without Vanessa etc.pp.). It's just a mindset that I believe is very common among RPG players - high Numbers aren't something to help them beat the game, high Numbers are the reason why they play the game in the first place. If it takes hours of preparation to get to the point where they can one-round the final boss of the game, it's totally worth it.

Personally, I find that any unit guide, not only about FE games, should at least mention the effort a unit takes. In this case, it's a lot of effort for very little return, when you compare the trainees to less high-maintenance units like Franz, Garcia, or Lute who do practically just as well without the tedium and, in case of Franz and Lute, are much longer around to help the player out than their trainee equivalents.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Any tier list that says "best unit' gameplay wise, and somehow had Marisa on it isn't valid

 

 

Marisa manage to be meme level bad in fucking Sacred Stones. Thats an acomplishment

 

 

 

But being serious for a second here, this guy claims he "countdown the seven strongest units available in Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones!" but even for a list that people would find "not good" because of the choice involved, the way its written isn't exactly satisfactory to read

Saying "Ephraim had good stats" is like the most pointless statement ever, because ANYONE can see it by going into the numbers. A good review of this kind should details out WHY the character in question is so good with proper gameplay descriptions. This is kind of like, for example

 

"Why is Azelf OU in Pokemon gen 6?"

The wrong answer: Because it have good support move, and good offensive stats

The correct answer: Because of meme squad

The difference between the correct answer and the wrong answer is that the correct answer involves knowing what your talking about and informing that to other players. The wrong answer is simply reading what you can clearly see and restating it

 

The old Top 30 Fire Emblem Character list of all time actually suceed at this even if its outdated(it was created before Awakening and the list creator said that had he made it again Robin will be the #1)

Edited December 2, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Athena_57]

I mean, "respectfully" disagreeing is kinda hard here. Ranking trainees on top is only true if you allow for extreme arena abuse, and if you arena abuse, everyone can steamroll the game so ranking units is pointless. Furthermore, as much as I love myrmidons, claiming they're a top-tier class is just factually incorrect, especially in the case of Marisa. But yeah, I think any tier list with Marisa above Seth is just wrong. 

I don't want to attack the author too much, but he probably should've called his list "Most fun units" or something similar, since "best" is usually defined as optimal to use in a non-grind run.

[ping]

Oh, I missed Reality's answer.

4 hours ago, Reality said:

The only outliers seem to be Joshua/Marisa, which seem to have been included due to different criteria, likely  A: The author enjoyed their animations or B: He considers them an OTP.

Honestly, the fact that he rates those two equally also shows that the author doesn't really have a grasp for the numbers. Even ignoring availability/level lead/..., there's no way Marisa's lead in Luck and Resistance balances out Joshua's higher strength and physical bulk.

11 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I don't want to attack the author too much, but he probably should've called his list "Most fun units" or something similar, since "best" is usually defined as optimal to use in a non-grind run.

Yeah, basically this. I don't know if he's just not that familiar with FE mechanics, or if he just desperately tried to find arguments why his favourites are also the best units in the game (I mean, he wouldn't be alone with that approach). But even assuming tower grind (and not counting it as a negative if necessary), there is just no consistency in that list. :/

[Interdimensional Observer]

56 minutes ago, ping said:

Honestly, the fact that he rates those two equally also shows that the author doesn't really have a grasp for the numbers. Even ignoring availability/level lead/..., there's no way Marisa's lead in Luck and Resistance balances out Joshua's higher strength and physical bulk.

Actually Joshua's physical lead isn't too great in the long run. A 20/10 Joshua has 3 HP, 2 Def, and also 2 Str over Marisa, who has 7 more Luck. 7 extra avoid in a 2 RN Hit game can make a difference.The Luck lead is almost mitigated by using a heavier sword, since Joshua has 8/9 Con and Marisa has 5/7.

The 2 extra Str is more meaningful, particularly with a critical hit increasing it to +6. But will anything die die to a 1 critical + a normal hit from Joshua that wouldn't from Marisa? But still, based purely on stats, I'd say Joshua is slightly better for that 2 Str.

[De Geso]

Clearly the guy who wrote it isn't very familiar with Fire Emblem and just wants to have fun with the game. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but people shouldn't make definitive lists and bold statements when they don't know what they're talking about.

[Florete]

It would be more believable as a bottom 7 list.

[Shadow Mir]

Some of his choices could legitimately be on a list like this, but I see some of his class recommendations as questionable (Assassin Marisa and Great Knight Amelia stand out in this regard), and I could say the same of his character choices (mainly Marisa and the trainees).

Edited December 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

15 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Actually Joshua's physical lead isn't too great in the long run. A 20/10 Joshua has 3 HP, 2 Def, and also 2 Str over Marisa, who has 7 more Luck. 7 extra avoid in a 2 RN Hit game can make a difference.The Luck lead is almost mitigated by using a heavier sword, since Joshua has 8/9 Con and Marisa has 5/7.

The 2 extra Str is more meaningful, particularly with a critical hit increasing it to +6. But will anything die die to a 1 critical + a normal hit from Joshua that wouldn't from Marisa? But still, based purely on stats, I'd say Joshua is slightly better for that 2 Str.

Well, I can't be arsed to crunch the exact numbers for FE8, but there's a good chance that 3 HP and 2 Def allow Joshua to tank an additional hit, which would be just as beneficial than +7 avoid. I'll admit that Joshua vs. Marisa wouldn't be quite as decisive (disregarding jointime, of course) as I made it out to be, but Joshua still has an unambiguous DPS (or DPT, rather) advantage, while Marisa's durability lead is both questionable and situational.

(btw, 7 disp.hit translates into less than 7 true hit when the displayed hitrate is below 25, i.e. where you want it to be if you want to dodgetank. So technically, 7 Luck is even less valuable with true hit than with good ol' 1 RN hit ;P )

[Flee Fleet!]

23 hours ago, Reality said:

I don't like that he uses "strongest" in the description- judging from his profile- this is a user that makes nothing but "top" lists, and while most of them are somewhat informed, all remain personal.

So I guess "personal favourite" is the best word to describe this list, and his other lists as you have said.

 

23 hours ago, Reality said:

Also I think it's important to point out that he advertises the training tower as a feature of the game (lopto ruins? I don't remember)  so his experience with the game is obviously going to be closer to a 2006ish 20/20 stat obsessed fire emblem community than the modern efficiency preferring one. 

Yeah, his list seems to be based more on 20/20 stats rather than the actual efficiency and others factors of a unit. Especially considering the fact he didn't put Lute in the list because she has a lower skill stat than Ewan.

 

23 hours ago, ping said:

Tbh, I'm slightly bothered by the claim that trainees end up much stronger than regular units. Their growths are lower than average to make up for the additional levels and promotional gains, so Amelia's and Ross' only big stat lead over other units in their classes is frigging Luck.

For me, Ross and Amelia tend to have higher stats than their "counterparts" (Garcia and Franz, respectively), but it's only a difference of one to two points usually. Whereas Ewan would only really prove to be better than Knoll if we go the Dark magic route, but he's never been better than Lute and Saleh.

 

21 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Any tier list that says "best unit' gameplay wise, and somehow had Marisa on it isn't valid

I somewhat agree. I don't think she's the worst unit, but she's definitely not in the top 10.

 

21 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The old Top 30 Fire Emblem Character list of all time actually suceed at this even if its outdated(it was created before Awakening and the list creator said that had he made it again Robin will be the #1)

There was an old list? If possible, can you give me a link to it? I'd like to check it out.

 

19 hours ago, athena_57 said:

I mean, "respectfully" disagreeing is kinda hard here

What I meant was that we shouldn't attack the author too much, but mainly discuss his list and what's wrong with it.

 

19 hours ago, athena_57 said:

he probably should've called his list "Most fun units" or something similar

I have to agree. "Best" was definitely not the correct term for this list.

 

Also, what do you guys think of Tana being placed along with Cormag in this list?

 

 

[Trojan123]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:18 AM, Flee Fleet! said:

Also, what do you guys think of Tana being placed along with Cormag in this list?

First, I will state how Ephraim, Joshua, and Cormag shouldn't have been placed under the three children. Maybe in a "Best Characters" list, but not in a "Best Units" list, as there is a large and noticeable difference. Ewan should also be placed lower than the other two trainees, as they can prove to be unique units while he has competition from multiple other mages/healers.

Tana is a traditional pegasus knight, and she is super awesome as a unit that can fly around with great speed and dodgability. She is an excellent unit.

Cormag is a non-traditonal wyvern rider, as he (don't let his base stats fool you) gets a bunch more speed than he does defense. He also flies around but starts out with more strength and defense than Tana, one-shotting a number of enemies with a javelin. He is an excellent unit.

If there's one thing I agreed with the article on, it's putting these two into the same category.They have similar roles as units, seeing as how they both fly around with lances and end out with high STR and SPD stats. Honestly, why not just use them both? They both can prove to be terrors on the battlefield. They don't require the babying of a trainee, and have insane growths. They'll both gain loads of EXP as they both have high movement and survivability. Neither fare well against archers in the beginning, but they can many times stay outside the archers' range, and then fly over and kill them by melee hits. All in all, a superior pair.

If I were myself, I would use both. If I were you and wanted a choice between the two, I would use Cormag. 

 

[Trojan123]

26 minutes ago, Trojan123 said:

First, I will state how Ephraim, Joshua, and Cormag shouldn't have been placed under the three children. Maybe in a "Best Characters" list, but not in a "Best Units" list, as there is a large and noticeable difference. Ewan should also be placed lower than the other two trainees, as they can prove to be unique units while he has competition from multiple other mages/healers.

Tana is a traditional pegasus knight, and she is super awesome as a unit that can fly around with great speed and dodgability. She is an excellent unit.

Cormag is a non-traditonal wyvern rider, as he (don't let his base stats fool you) gets a bunch more speed than he does defense. He also flies around but starts out with more strength and defense than Tana, one-shotting a number of enemies with a javelin. He is an excellent unit.

If there's one thing I agreed with the article on, it's putting these two into the same category.They have similar roles as units, seeing as how they both fly around with lances and end out with high STR and SPD stats. Honestly, why not just use them both? They both can prove to be terrors on the battlefield. They don't require the babying of a trainee, and have insane growths. They'll both gain loads of EXP as they both have high movement and survivability. Neither fare well against archers in the beginning, but they can many times stay outside the archers' range, and then fly over and kill them by melee hits. All in all, a superior pair.

If I were myself, I would use both. If I were you and wanted a choice between the two, I would use Cormag. 

 

"I had to let you live, so that you could continue to train and perhaps one day be worthy of Gawain's legacy. My armor's blessing is gone; let us see if that day is today." - Look it up.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Trojan123
I didn't mean to quote myself. Whoops. The entire thing need to be deleted.

[Simon the Digger]

Ephraim and Gerik are good units...but not sure they're top 7 Potential. I'd say top 10 but not top 7.

I feel like Tana and Cormag are good though, top 10 I think.

Joshua hits like a wet noodle, and definitely isn't top 5 units in the game. I'd say he's right in the middle.

That goes DOUBLE for Marisa. Imo WORST unit in the game. 

All of the Trainees, (don't care what you say) are bad units. They all require a CRAP ton of investment; and probably won't even live up to the better units in the game. Their growths aren't good either, most of their growths barely surpass 50%.

Seth, Myrrh, the Bishops among better units are more than enough; even on Hard Mode.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Corncake