The biggest issue w/ 2/15

[Kazuya]

I did this with 14, my least favourite game in the series, so now I'm doing it with my favourite, Gaiden/Echoes (2/15). (8 is also my favourite, I'm tied between the two, it's weird but I do this w/ Pokemon too)

The biggest issue with 2/15 are the maps...but not all of them, just swamps. Swamp maps are the biggest problem 2/15 have. They don't have actual strategies, you just have to hope you can heal everyone in time before they get attacked and beaten by the swamp/attacker. It's nothing but a struggle and one that could have been easily avoided too. I get that it's a Famicom title, but like it could have done a lot better. Other than that, I don't have any issues with 2/15 minus Clair and Clive. They are terrible units, Clair can't do damage and Clive is Clive. They did get buffs in 15, which is nice, but so did everyone else and it just doesn't help either of them in the long run. Like why would you use Clive when you have Zeke and Matilda? The Whitewings may be with Celica but man they just outclass in every way. All in all though, 2/15 are still my favourites even with their flaws. The game has something all others don't and it's great. 

[UNLEASH IT]

2 minutes ago, Kazuya said:

I did this with 14, my least favourite game in the series, so now I'm doing it with my favourite, Gaiden/Echoes (2/15). (8 is also my favourite, I'm tied between the two, it's weird but I do this w/ Pokemon too)

The biggest issue with 2/15 are the maps...but not all of them, just swamps. Swamp maps are the biggest problem 2/15 have. They don't have actual strategies, you just have to hope you can heal everyone in time before they get attacked and beaten by the swamp/attacker. It's nothing but a struggle and one that could have been easily avoided too. I get that it's a Famicom title, but like it could have done a lot better. Other than that, I don't have any issues with 2/15 minus Clair and Clive. They are terrible units, Clair can't do damage and Clive is Clive. They did get buffs in 15, which is nice, but so did everyone else and it just doesn't help either of them in the long run. Like why would you use Clive when you have Zeke and Matilda? The Whitewings may be with Celica but man they just outclass in every way. All in all though, 2/15 are still my favourites even with their flaws. The game has something all others don't and it's great. 

Most of chapter 2 using a similar map is a pretty big problem as well tbh.

Edited December 5, 2017 by UNLEASH IT

[Kazuya]

14 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Most of chapter 2 using a similar map is a pretty big problem as well tbh.

I disagree with that statement, while it is a bit boring fighting on the same map, it's not a problem if you think about the hardware. That's the reason why a lot of maps in 2 were the same, it's not that big of a deal till swamps either. 

[UNLEASH IT]

Just now, Kazuya said:

I disagree with that statement, while it is a bit boring fighting on the same map, it's not a problem if you think about the hardware. That's the reason why a lot of maps in 2 were the same, it's not that big of a deal till swamps either. 

Elaborate, because I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[Kazuya]

9 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Elaborate, because I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The famicom wasn't that powerful, so reusing assets was something a lot of games did at the time. 2 was most likely at the time considered to be one of the bigger games at the time. It reused maps, art (portraits mainly), and so on due to the limitations of the hardware. I'm pretty sure FE 2 could have been on the Super Famicom if IS held development time back to edit the game and redo sprites (etc)

[UNLEASH IT]

Just now, Kazuya said:

The famicom wasn't that powerful, so reusing assets was something a lot of games did at the time. 2 was most likely at the time considered to be one of the bigger games at the time. It reused maps, art (portraits mainly), and so on due to the limitations of the hardware. I'm pretty sure FE 2 could have been on the Super Famicom if IS held development time back to edit the game and redo sprites (etc)

But FE1 had different maps for each chapter, each of which were much more complex than Gaiden's

[Thane]

The dreadful map designs and lack of objectives. Made even worse by the fact that multiple maps are reused. 

Summons, both enemy and friendly. Enemies spam you, artificially lengthening the playtime, while friendly summons completely break the AI in half.

Several important characters fall flat on their faces, most notably Alm and Berkut.

All of chapter six save for the lore.

A much more subjective note, but I felt like the units were less different in terms of what they could do, barring the mages. With a minimum set of stats for classes, the gap between characters rarely feels wide enough, and what makes the characters unique is instead their interchangeable weapons. It cut into the replay value for me.

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Most of chapter 2 using a similar map is a pretty big problem as well tbh.

You mean the many, many boats right?

I didn't really mind. Despite them all sharing a theme I found the objectives themselves to be pretty varied. We got a zombie boat, a boat where your mages and that of the enemy can shoot at each other and a map with two dragons. 

[Hawkwing]

That people won't shut up about its problems.

Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia reminds me a lot of Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, where almost every aspect of the game(s) can produce a wildly different response from each player, both positively and negatively. This results in the game being both greatly beloved by some players while others greatly hated the experience. Not helping is that how much someone liked or hated certain aspects of the game can also range from person to person. There are some mechanics I love that I've seen other's dislike, and vice versa, and there are some mechanics I would like to see again, and others that I think should remain one-time tricks. Overall, this is a complicated game to recommend, as I don't know if I'm giving.

I do like the games story, but I also known that the reasons for it are not universal. I like how the story is intentionally told from a biased perspective, how it includes a broken Aesop on purpose, and I actually kind of like some aspects of Rudolf plan since I'm one of the few who understands it. It makes me more curious about the world, and how it will continue after the events of the story, but I know full well that many are (very rightfully) bothered by these aspects. I've also noticed that I've rolled my eyes at or face-palmed and then got over many parts of they story that have legitimately bothered others, making its quality very difficult to judge as a whole.

As for the game itself:

• I don't mind that they reused the same maps from the original game, as they were more bland than mechanically bad (with some exceptions), and in a strategy game, I'll take the former over the latter any day. However, I do wish they added a few more original maps instead of copying them like in the original game, because Gaiden had the legitimate excuse of facing hardware limitations, while SoV doesn't. To say something kind about the maps, though, I do like that they serve a purpose beyond aesthetics. When
• While I do like that many of the games twists are properly foreshadowed, unlike the original game were they came out of nowhere, they go overboard at points, and I think that some of that time could be dedicated to other areas of the story.
• As much as I like Alm as a character, I wish his flaws were brought up and analyzed more. It's shown that he's reckless, and chooses doing the right thing over the pragmatic one several times, but these aspects of his character aren't shown often enough, I would've liked some foreshadowing that this behavior would backfire him. I also wish that there was a conversation somewhere where he discussed how he felt about people expecting him to become king after the conflict was over, as well as what he though about the aesop he was promoting over the course of the game being broken by something outside of his control. This would add depth to this character and stop people from complaining about him.
• I really wish they didn't reuse portraits for the villagers. When the old man who knows that Mycen has no family is the same old man who gives Celica and co. a ride to the mainland and is the same old man that diligently guarded the floodgate in Mila's Temple despite the royal family being presumed dead, it lessens the impact and memorability that these characters could of had. Especially since the soldier guarding the floodgate in Mila's Temple was actually memorable to me in Gaiden, as his dialogue contrasted nicely with the generic and expected NPC dialogue by becoming off as grizzled and cynical, yet loyal to his task despite knowing that the royal family is dead, and how his disposition, yet not personality, changed after Celica's reveal, all from a guy who appeared once.
• *$#% swamp maps. That is all.

Since I'm tired of the crap this game has gotten, and I need something positive to counter the inevitable negativity of this thread, I'll quickly give a short list of the many things I liked about the game:

• A lot of heart when into making this game and it shows, and I hope IS puts the same amount of effort and love into the rest of the series, both past, present, and future.
• Researching this game was an extremely fun experience, and it made admire both what the original game accomplished as well as what the remake expanded upon. I'm also thankful for it being a step in the process of me finding out how to work an emulator, and Gaiden was one my earliest attempts at doing so.
• You can tell IS got their money's worth an more out of the voice acting. It escalated already good writing, and helped save the areas where it was average/poor. It still surprises me how much it added to the characters, and they set a high bar on the series that I hope is matched in future games.
• Even in it's NES days, I'm still surprised at what they managed to get regicide, patricide, child murder, and zombies in the game, without it coming off as dark or edgy. I'm also impressed that as far as the second game, they succeeded in having neither nation holding the moral high ground, had several bosses that weren't evil, and had the biggest @$$hole in the entire game be dead, unnamed, and on the ""good-guys side!" I still wonder why some these aspects of this game weren't replicated in future titles
• It's overall a solid game, and I wouldn't mind if many of its unique mechanics came back in future games.

... I would give a bigger list at the moment, but I'm tired of writing. Needless to say, I would be here for a while if I listed off everything I loved about the game.

[Dragoncat]

Wow, my whitewings suck and Clair outshines them. Am I in a minority?

[Hawkwing]

18 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Wow, my whitewings suck and Clair outshines them. Am I in a minority?

I know that Clair's usefulness depends on the difficulty. She's a beast on normal difficulty, and can wreck anything and everything with a ridersbane equipped. In hard mode, however, she's more average, as archers actually have their anti-air bonus, and the enemies are buffed-up enough that they aren't as easy to steamroll.

The Whitewings serve their purpose, but their usefulness is harder to judge as you get three of them, so its harder to overuse one, like in Alm's path.

That, or it could just be the the erratic growth rates, which is there is something that everyone in the game has to deal with. I honestly love this aspect of the game, as do love a lot about the game, as no matter how kind or ruthless the RNG is to a unit, they still have a use, and benching someone is a terrible idea in this game.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Hawkwing

[Armagon]

The desert maps (and tbh, the map design in general). Most of the maps aren't bad, they just aren't good either, though terrain does spice things up a bit. The desert maps are the worst. The swamp maps get trivialized by the Whitewings so they really aren't an issue. I wouldn't say SoV's maps are the worst in the series but they need an improvement.

While the plot does have it's flaws, i don't think it's that big of a deal. It's still one of the better written FE stories out there. It's just that Alm could've used a few flaws and Celica didn't need to be a damsel-in-distress. 

[UNLEASH IT]

5 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

That people won't shut up about its problems.

Honestly, compared to Awakening and Fates, criticism of Echoes has been quite lukewarm

[Thane]

2 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Honestly, compared to Awakening and Fates, criticism of Echoes has been quite lukewarm

As has the praise been, save for the presentation. It feels like Echoes didn't make much of an impact at all. I mean this subforum isn't very active, while Fates' was abuzz for a very long period of time.

[Kazuya]

On 12/5/2017 at 12:10 PM, UNLEASH IT said:

But FE1 had different maps for each chapter, each of which were much more complex than Gaiden's

FE1 is a smaller game, in terms of size (Overworld map, different playable characters, etc)

 

[UNLEASH IT]

5 minutes ago, Kazuya said:

FE1 is a smaller game, in terms of size (Overworld map, different playable characters, etc)

 

I'll give you the overworld map but FE1 has more playable characters than Gaiden (52 vs 32)

[sirmola]

Honestly, I find that the maps don't get to repetitive because of the different encounters spice things up. Playing a boat map against a cantor is just different then playing against a bunch of pirates. As for dessert maps, this game generally includes enough non-sand tiles to make them less annoying than many FE games. Swamp maps, on the other hand, can go stuff themselves, and are definitely the low point of this game.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by sirmola

[Jedi]

Biggest issue is they didn't update the map designs, but like the presentation and level of detail on character interactions are back to Tellius levels, so those of you who love that will be able to overlook any potential gameplay flaws. 

(I myself find the game fun to run through despite the very simplistic maps, and I just hope FE16 takes cues from how Echoes handled its characters and writing, albeit the weak NES plot they had to try to expand).

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jedi

[sirmola]

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Biggest issue is they didn't update the map designs

I honestly suspect that this had something to do with how fates reused maps and everyone was fine with it. Of course, that was different in three ways: firstly, Each map was never used in more than two chapters (even in situations like the ninja chapter, where it would be easy to just use the forest 3 times from a story perspective, they make sure to include the cave in conquest instead for variety (and also because IS hates the player, but that's neither here nor there). Secondly, there are lots of differences in objectives and dragon vein points. Thirdly, and most importantly: Each map is only used once per route, so even if you play two routes consecutively, there is essentualy a full game's worth of gameplay between any repeted content (whereas echoes has like two boat map designs, which get repeted constantly.

Edited December 7, 2017 by sirmola

[Thane]

18 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I honestly suspect that this had something to do with how fates reused maps and everyone was fine with it.

Even for the reasons you detailed, a lot of people most definitely weren't okay with this. I thought it was not only unavoidable due to the structure of the different paths, but also a necessity to show the differences brought about by our choice. I don't think they did the latter part well, but in Echoes there's absolutely no reason to replay that damn "two fields separated by one river with one single bridge over it" three bloody times. Then there are the boat maps, and two swamp maps are the same as well. That's a lot for a single game.

[Hawkwing]

24 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I honestly suspect that this had something to do with how fates reused maps and everyone was fine with it.

It was probably more to do with being faithful to Gaiden, and while I don't mind the maps themselves, I do wish we got a few more unique ones whenever they were repeated. Gaiden at least had the excuse of hardware limitations (a legitimate excuse, even nowadays. It's the same reason why portraits were reused and why the plot rarely pops up in the original game (though it's still impressive to see what Shadow Dragon and Gaiden managed to do storywise on the NES, at least compared to what other games offered at the time, even if they are cliched)), while Shadows's of Valentia doesn't. Considering how they may managed to revamp the dungeons, weapons, and growth rates without throwing the game out of balance while still remaining true to the original, I'm still surprised we didn't have any same passion arrive in the form of new and improved maps.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

To me the game is a pretty looking piece of shit, and not because the game looks like it has a golden brown filter through. Game play wise this GAME fails miserably; my one wish for the switch game is that it's nothing like Echoes game play. Cantors make it longer and more tedious than it needs to be (and the creatures give jack shit for experience). 

[Seazas]

On 12/5/2017 at 1:36 PM, Thane said:

The dreadful map designs and lack of objectives. Made even worse by the fact that multiple maps are reused. 

Summons, both enemy and friendly. Enemies spam you, artificially lengthening the playtime, while friendly summons completely break the AI in half.

Several important characters fall flat on their faces, most notably Alm and Berkut.

All of chapter six save for the lore.

A much more subjective note, but I felt like the units were less different in terms of what they could do, barring the mages. With a minimum set of stats for classes, the gap between characters rarely feels wide enough, and what makes the characters unique is instead their interchangeable weapons. It cut into the replay value for me.

...Berkut? No the entire point of Berkut was being a victim of Rigel and falling from grace. Not being this feared badass. Him being "finest general" was an ego boosting title and there's ways to get that title outside of just battle. His entire theme is "pride and arrogance". Said pride and arrogance crafted by Rigel is the cause of his downfall. Berkut saying himself these standards were forced on by his parents in game. The developers say themselves that if Alm was raised in Rigel he would be no different from Berkut... Shall I give the link? It's in my bookmarks somewhere so I can go search for it if you like. 

Also what's wrong with Alm?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[bottlegnomes]

Thinking about it, I feel like Celica should've had a foil. Alm has Berkut where they're highlighting the difference in how they're raised, Clive has Fernand with the whole family thing, and then Celica's got Conrad?

I absolutely adore the characters for the most part and the story's fine—FE is LotR, not GoT, and it has no intention of being the latter. That said, all the new characters save maybe Berkut seemed kind of pointless. The difference between Clive and Fernand isn't a personality difference; it's this shitty thing happened to one and not the other. Maybe it's to show how important support is to someone's mental wellbeing? If that is it, then they could've played it up more. Conrad serves no purpose for the most part. I like both those characters, but I'm not really sure what the writers were intending them to add to the story, if anything.

Gameplay-wise, I liked a lot of it. My only real gripes were that the dungeons could use refining and the maps were boring. I don't know that I'd want that weapon system all the time, but it was a really cool change of pace. Really, rework the maps to be more modern and it might've been my favorite FE. As is, it just stands as my favorite cast.

But really, the biggest problem is that Rudolph doesn't have a mustache.

[Seazas]

17 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Thinking about it, I feel like Celica should've had a foil. Alm has Berkut where they're highlighting the difference in how they're raised, Clive has Fernand with the whole family thing, and then Celica's got Conrad?

I absolutely adore the characters for the most part and the story's fine—FE is LotR, not GoT, and it has no intention of being the latter. That said, all the new characters save maybe Berkut seemed kind of pointless. The difference between Clive and Fernand isn't a personality difference; it's this shitty thing happened to one and not the other. Maybe it's to show how important support is to someone's mental wellbeing? If that is it, then they could've played it up more. Conrad serves no purpose for the most part. I like both those characters, but I'm not really sure what the writers were intending them to add to the story, if anything.

Gameplay-wise, I liked a lot of it. My only real gripes were that the dungeons could use refining and the maps were boring. I don't know that I'd want that weapon system all the time, but it was a really cool change of pace. Really, rework the maps to be more modern and it might've been my favorite FE. As is, it just stands as my favorite cast.

But really, the biggest problem is that Rudolph doesn't have a mustache.

Celica is foil to Alm, Alm completely has Duma's Ideals, Celica has Mila's. They both come to have some of the respective gods' traits (Celica coming to accept Duma's Ideals, Alm having the kindness of Mila). Alm even says with Act 5 without Celica that he can only see what's right in front of him too. Alm is quick to resort to violence, Celica is not unless there's truly a no talking situation.