Why is it that Fire Emblem has more male fans?

[SullyMcGully]

Fanservice plays a role. Then again, if you want to go around saying "be realistic, nobody would wear that into battle", then you'd also have to be realistic and acknowledge that most armies don't have many women in their ranks at all. 

[Stephen the Great]

Another question: among your acquaintances, what is the range of opinions regarding strategy games?

[camelpimp]

Honestly, if I had to guess I'd say that the gender ratio is probably 50-50, even maybe approaching female majority. They just aren't in the place you're looking. I mean, in the Awakening art book, the popularity poll they have in there had 68% female participants. Okay, only 700 people polled, but still an shocking number, ya know? 

Women tend to prefer story based games. This is why JRPG fandoms are pretty woman-dominated. It still amuses me that whenever the creators of these games meet the fans they're always surprised they have such large female fanbase.

[Captain Karnage]

Because it a apeals more to men

Said it in under 10 words

[Christactics]

18 minutes ago, camelpimp said:

Honestly, if I had to guess I'd say that the gender ratio is probably 50-50, even maybe approaching female majority. They just aren't in the place you're looking. I mean, in the Awakening art book, the popularity poll they have in there had 68% female participants. Okay, only 700 people polled, but still an shocking number, ya know? 

Women tend to prefer story based games. This is why JRPG fandoms are pretty woman-dominated. It still amuses me that whenever the creators of these games meet the fans they're always surprised they have such large female fanbase.

Didn't know about that statistic!

now I'm curious about something else- Why would certain genres of games appeal more to a certain majority of the gender? 

[Johann]

Hypermasculinity (the exaggeration of stereotypically male behavior like aggression, sexuality, and competitiveness) is dominant in gaming as a whole. The industry (and really most media) largely perpetuates this, which cultivates these qualities in gaming communities. As a result, many communities are rife with misogyny, homophobia, racism, and more. This kind of problem turns a considerable number of people off of gaming, particularly women since they often become targets, which then promotes the notion that girls don't play games, or even want to, and that creators should focus on straight males as an audience. There's been a shift over the past few years to call out that negative behavior, fortunately, in both communities and the industry, but it's rampant in many genres, particularly in competitive games/genres.

With that in mind, the player gender imbalance in a series like Fire Emblem stems from being a lesser known game series (under the lens of video games as a whole; the average person has never heard of Fire Emblem and the average gamer likely knows little about it), so it's suffering from the far-reaching "games aren't for girls" misconception. Within the games themselves, however, I perceive some standout issues, particularly the sexualized female characters, which are part of the problem. These are all character design issues; the core mechanics aren't at fault.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Johann

[Ertrick36]

1 hour ago, SoulWeaver said:

Can I say because some girls are busy doing actually important things with their lives?

Everyone has better things to do with their lives...  But I guess I could see how gals would need to reserve more time for more important things.

Though even my parents found time to play games with me when I was younger (and we were poorer), and these days they actually will play mobile games while watching TV in their room.  Really, almost my whole family besides maybe my brother tends to watch movies/YouTube/Netflix while playing some kind of portable/handheld game.

1 hour ago, EricaofRenais said:

I have seen an upswing in female players as a whole and when I go to GameStop there is normally at least one female employee, which is nice since I like seeing another female gamer when I buy my games.

At my GameStop, the manager is a lady.  Not only that, but she's a lady that my sister actually knows.  My sister even worked there one season.

Though I don't see female customers besides my sister too often there.  Then again, I am not found at GameStop frequently anyway.  Since I live in Montana, I get a lot of the "Mountain Man/Girl" types of locals, and that typically comes along with a negative attitude towards video games or TV/movie watching.  I mean, there are still the typical cliques you might find in any big city community, but the Mountain Folk are much more prevalent than any other kind around here.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well that must have been awkward. 

I have a friend that gets a lot of shit, and quite a few are cause she's a girl. She generally goes for RPs, and whether its reddit or tumblr, she always finds herself somehow getting onto the bad side of a male toxic community, and goes through shit. 

Honestly, due to how there's still a large amount of sexism in society, some don't even have to be on purpose, there's always going to be a hard time finding a balance when it comes to these things. 

What was even more awkward was that I actually made friends with some people on PSN (PlayStation Network) through MGS4's online game, and in spite of them knowing I was a guy, one of them hinted at having feelings for me...  He told me one night that if I was a girl, the time we were spending together at the time would've been "quite romantic".

I'm sure he was just trying to be funny or something, but it... well, it got pretty awkward.  Uncomfortably so.  It's why I don't jump on the whole idea that "friend zoning" is this horrible thing that women do to make men feel like shit.  I can understand not having feelings for someone who might have feelings for me, but still wanting to be friends with that person.

And I also knew some other guy from down in Louisiana via PSN...  Had the opinion that "women attempt more than guys accomplish", and said... uh, that Asian girls tend to be "very loud in bed", if you get what I'm saying...  It was a wonder he was always having girl problems when he held women in such high regard... *sarcasm*

Not a terrible person, but he had views of the world that I simply didn't share at all.

I also was part of GTAForums, which was just a cesspit of misogyny.  I hated it there; I didn't even feel like I could open up because they hated you if you so much as played as a character of a different race or gender, and they had this creepy obsession with the song "The Mouth Don't Stop (The Trouble Today with Women Is)" by Fear.  I joined mostly so that I could take part in GTA V discussions and modding... I ultimately only made one mod, which was just a quick rigging job I did for about eight characters with two-three alternate costumes, rigging them all into GTA San Andreas.  And I haven't been active in that forum ever since GTA Online originally came out on the PS3.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This reminds me of me checking out this site back when Shadow Dragon was the most recent game and asking myself why there were so many women into Fire Emblem. I don't know the answer to that, but I know better in the sense that I know it doesn't really matter. People like what they like. And I think the fandom benefits from the higher than average female to male ratio compared to other franchises. Co-ed environments prompt people to behave themselves

[YingofDarkness]

11 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Can I say because some girls are busy doing actually important things with their lives? Most girls I know have better things to do than game - one of my coworkers manages to run a small gaming channel in her spare time, but it's often crowded by the fact that she works two jobs and still goes to school, while I have pretty much nothing in between me and the fabulous Nintendo.

Nope. I spend most of my day either at work or gaming/looking up stuff online. It all depends on the person and how introverted or extroverted they are. My brother has much more of an active social life then me, and because of that he also spends less time gaming although he still does game.

That having been said, I can't add anything more that someone hasn't already said. A lot of women will play as males/or say they are males to avoid harassment. Then there is the fanservice which is a turn off for women especially if it becomes too exaggerated like how Fates got. This all goes back to how most of the game industry thinks that females are only attracted to certain genres (mostly lifesim stuff), and so design and market every other genre towards straight males. This has gotten better over the years, but is still kind of prevalent and causes some toxic online communities.

A big thing I've noticed listening to my some of my friends at work talk about their kids is how parents allow the boys to play video games, but discourage the girls from doing the same. Like one of my friends has two stepkids, a boy and a girl. She has outright said that sometimes the boy will tell his sister that she can't play a certain game because it isn't for girls, and she doesn't try to correct him or anything. This is something she agrees with but it is probably turning off the sister from ever really getting into games. I think this will change over time as well, but it is going to be a while.

[Dandy Druid]

16 hours ago, Thane said:

Do you know of any genres where women are the majority? I'm not asking that to sound dismissive, mind you, I'm just genuinely curious. 

The only possible genre I can think of is the visual novel/otome games. Even then I'm not completely sure though.

[Wist]

@Freezerburn's link suggests some. Though I would consider series instead of genres. For example, I'd be surprised if Kingdom Hearts had more male fans than female. And like @Freezerburn suggested, female playership in general is probably broadly underestimated. I suspect the number of women playing Fire Emblem is probably underestimated too.

Maybe this is a tangent, but I also want to contribute to the notion that it can be hard to accurately judge the make-up of a forum. By no means am I arguing against the premise of the thread or the weighting of SF's gender ratio. But when I've seen topics like this in other communities, it's often turned out male posters assumed most other members were men when that wasn't actually the case.

Anyways, @Florete makes an interesting point about the protagonists. The trailers, box art, and other promotional material probably have a lot of influence. I get the impression fewer woman discount games merely for having a male protagonist than men discount games merely for having a female protagonist ("I can't possibly relate to a girl... even though I can relate to a 200kg homicidal space marine..."). However, the coupling of serious male characters with cute/sexy support role girls makes the games look specifically designed with only straight male players in mind. And that probably goes a ways toward implying the stories will be less immersing (immersive?) for women (generally speaking).

Can anyone comment on if FE Warriors is any good with this? I know it has dual protagonists, but I haven't kept up with the game at all, much less kept track of its marketing. Are they represented convincingly equally?

[edgelordweeaboo]

if you dont include mobile games men play more video games than women in general and this is for sure true for the jrpg genre. the series is also targeted towards male audiences. it's not just fire emblem really, look at almost any other game and the wide majority of players will also be male.

 

On 12/8/2017 at 3:27 AM, Dandy Druid said:

The only possible genre I can think of is the visual novel/otome games. Even then I'm not completely sure though.

i highly doubt that women dominate the visual novel genre either

 

On 12/7/2017 at 4:09 PM, Johann said:

Hypermasculinity (the exaggeration of stereotypically male behavior like aggression, sexuality, and competitiveness) is dominant in gaming as a whole. The industry (and really most media) largely perpetuates this, which cultivates these qualities in gaming communities. As a result, many communities are rife with misogyny, homophobia, racism, and more. This kind of problem turns a considerable number of people off of gaming, particularly women since they often become targets, which then promotes the notion that girls don't play games, or even want to, and that creators should focus on straight males as an audience. There's been a shift over the past few years to call out that negative behavior, fortunately, in both communities and the industry, but it's rampant in many genres, particularly in competitive games/genres.

With that in mind, the player gender imbalance in a series like Fire Emblem stems from being a lesser known game series (under the lens of video games as a whole; the average person has never heard of Fire Emblem and the average gamer likely knows little about it), so it's suffering from the far-reaching "games aren't for girls" misconception. Within the games themselves, however, I perceive some standout issues, particularly the sexualized female characters, which are part of the problem. These are all character design issues; the core mechanics aren't at fault.

The industry targets males because males are generally more interested in gaming. There's misogyny, homophobia, and racism in these communities because they're generally online and people are anonymous which enables trolls. It's inevitable any time anyone is anonymous and game companies generally try to deal with these kinds of things going on in their games but sometimes you need to just suck it up and deal with it. It's not just women that experience this shit either by the way. I get flamed and called a "faggot" or racial slurs in online games too, just like anyone else, regardless of gender or race. It's really not hard to understand at all. You can't really say shit about the "sexualized female characters" causing the lack of women in the Fire Emblem community either because there's fan service for them too. They make male characters that appeal to female audiences as well. I guarantee you if you made characters less sexualized it wouldn't change shit. If it did why didn't more women play older Fire Emblem games? they weren't nearly as sexualized then and there was still a disparity between males and females in the Fire Emblem community. This has all been broken down so many times before. Also games are targeted at males because males are the main audience for video games. They always have been even since the beginning of gaming with arcades and old consoles like the atari or the nes. 

 

On 12/7/2017 at 2:23 PM, SullyMcGully said:

Fanservice plays a role. Then again, if you want to go around saying "be realistic, nobody would wear that into battle", then you'd also have to be realistic and acknowledge that most armies don't have many women in their ranks at all. 

you'd also have to remove magic and magic imbued legendary weapons and dragons and the fire emblem and all that shit
 

MODEDIT: dude

[Florete]

2 hours ago, lyscalibur said:

Can anyone comment on if FE Warriors is any good with this? I know it has dual protagonists, but I haven't kept up with the game at all, much less kept track of its marketing. Are they represented convincingly equally?

If you don't pay too much attention it's good enough, but when you start looking at the smaller details it gets pretty skewed toward Rowan.

[Stephen the Great]

2 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

you'd also have to remove magic and magic imbued legendary weapons and dragons and the fire emblem and all that shit

Exactly. If we're going to start raving about historical plausibility, it'll upend Fire Emblem as a whole.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

A lot of people who make games are male and more often than not they make games that reflect themselves or idealized versions of themselves; that's certainly the case with games made in the U.S. With Fire Emblem, a lot of the time when they have protagonists that are female, they are normally accompanied by a male protagonist who basically gets all the glory. I will never forget the end of Chapter 16 or Scared Stones (Eirika's route) and the crowd was cheering for Ephraim and only Ephraim as their new ruler; to me it came off as an acknowledgement of how the game feels that Ephraim is clearly superior than Eirika; I say this someone who thinks Ephraim is best lord. Not to mention Lyn being irrelevant in comparison to Eliwood and Hector, Michaiah to Ike in Radiant Dawn, Alm to Celica in Echoes (the most recent game) and the obvious favouritism towards Male Robin in comparison to Female Robin (he gets a cinematic when pull him in heroes and she is a limited time GHB and a common theme among those are that they were enemies in their home game). And it appears that the majority of the fandom is ok with that. This why I like that Female Corrin is the one getting the spotlight, but according to the fandom it has to mean that she's my "waifu". So to me the reason as to why the fandom appears more male is because I feel that men are less likely to object to situations in which they are better represented, no reason for them to complain about it.

[Johann]

4 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

The industry targets males because males are generally more interested in gaming. There's misogyny, homophobia, and racism in these communities because they're generally online and people are anonymous which enables trolls. It's inevitable any time anyone is anonymous and game companies generally try to deal with these kinds of things going on in their games but sometimes you need to just suck it up and deal with it. It's not just women that experience this shit either by the way. I get flamed and called a "faggot" or racial slurs in online games too, just like anyone else, regardless of gender or race. It's really not hard to understand at all.

You misunderstand me. First off, males are not inherently more interested in games. Games are regularly being designed with stereotypical straight males in mind. Everyone loves games because games are fun, and everyone loves fun. But people won't play a game that doesn't suit their tastes. The industry is largely unwilling to branch out beyond the misconception that only males are going to be interested, and so they are perpetuating the notion by only catering to certain males. This is a terrible shame since it stunts gaming as a whole, both artistically and economically.

Secondly, the harm caused by hypermasculinity is not at all exclusive to online activity. Have you ever seen people get into a fist fight over a sports team? Have you seen men harass women in public places, whether verbally or physically? Men in any setting are known to behave like total pieces of shit in an attempt to appear more macho or the "alpha male". I would say that the online anonanimity does enhance that though, in that they feel there aren't reprocussions, and otherwise shy or reserved men might feel more in their element. You being subject to that kind of name calling is an example of the harm hypermasculinity presents, though I guarantee you it would be even worse if you were a woman and/or a minority (I'm inferring from your post that you're a straight white male). Telling someone to "suck it up and deal with it" is little help when the harassment doesn't stop when a online match ends.

4 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

 You can't really say shit about the "sexualized female characters" causing the lack of women in the Fire Emblem community either because there's fan service for them too. They make male characters that appeal to female audiences as well. I guarantee you if you made characters less sexualized it wouldn't change shit. If it did why didn't more women play older Fire Emblem games? they weren't nearly as sexualized then and there was still a disparity between males and females in the Fire Emblem community.

Sexualized female characters in Fire Emblem turns all kinds of people away from the series, not just women. You might not realize this, but there are a lot of people who don't like "fanservice", especially coming from video game/cartoon characters. The more prevalent it is, the more it pushes away people who don't care for that and welcome the people that do, which is a shame because then people are missing out on a really well made game.

Older Fire Emblem games are universally less popular primarily due to reasons like difficulty and availability.

5 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

This has all been broken down so many times before. Also games are targeted at males because males are the main audience for video games. They always have been even since the beginning of gaming with arcades and old consoles like the atari or the nes. 

You're looking at the symptom here, not the cause. It's a self-perpetuating thing and by embracing it as a boy's club is making it worse. Not to mention, games were initially popular with everybody, and still are. Here, watch some stuff.

[Florete]

15 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

Also games are targeted at males because males are the main audience for video games. They always have been even since the beginning of gaming with arcades and old consoles like the atari or the nes. 

This itself is the problem. "Why aren't there games for girls? Because girls don't play games. Why don't girls play games? Because there aren't games for girls."

[Wist]

8 hours ago, Johann said:

Sexualized female characters in Fire Emblem turns all kinds of people away from the series, not just women. You might not realize this, but there are a lot of people who don't like "fanservice", especially coming from video game/cartoon characters. The more prevalent it is, the more it pushes away people who don't care for that and welcome the people that do, which is a shame because then people are missing out on a really well made game.

Absolutely spot on.

"I guarantee you if you made characters less sexualized it wouldn't change shit" isn't something you can guarantee. Perhaps changing nothing but the outfits wouldn't make a big difference. But changing the dynamic with the outfits, the personalities, and character's roles in the stories (like all the examples @I'm a Spheal mentioned) might. It's this dynamic that's probably the biggest contributing factor to a gender bias.

Games are a broad category of entertainment. Even Fire Emblem is pretty broad. Strategy, story, party building, relationships, grinding, and resource management are among the many aspects of Fire Emblem that appeal to different people irrespective of their gender. It would be a shame if the series were artificially locked into catering to one reliable but isolated market segment, and an inevitable detriment to the quality of the series. It's high time the developers figured this out and properly acted on it.

[Mega Koopa]

Everyone knows that women don't exist, duh.

[edgelordweeaboo]

20 hours ago, Johann said:

You misunderstand me. First off, males are not inherently more interested in games. Games are regularly being designed with stereotypical straight males in mind. Everyone loves games because games are fun, and everyone loves fun. But people won't play a game that doesn't suit their tastes. The industry is largely unwilling to branch out beyond the misconception that only males are going to be interested, and so they are perpetuating the notion by only catering to certain males. This is a terrible shame since it stunts gaming as a whole, both artistically and economically.

Secondly, the harm caused by hypermasculinity is not at all exclusive to online activity. Have you ever seen people get into a fist fight over a sports team? Have you seen men harass women in public places, whether verbally or physically? Men in any setting are known to behave like total pieces of shit in an attempt to appear more macho or the "alpha male". I would say that the online anonanimity does enhance that though, in that they feel there aren't reprocussions, and otherwise shy or reserved men might feel more in their element. You being subject to that kind of name calling is an example of the harm hypermasculinity presents, though I guarantee you it would be even worse if you were a woman and/or a minority (I'm inferring from your post that you're a straight white male). Telling someone to "suck it up and deal with it" is little help when the harassment doesn't stop when a online match ends.

Sexualized female characters in Fire Emblem turns all kinds of people away from the series, not just women. You might not realize this, but there are a lot of people who don't like "fanservice", especially coming from video game/cartoon characters. The more prevalent it is, the more it pushes away people who don't care for that and welcome the people that do, which is a shame because then people are missing out on a really well made game.

Older Fire Emblem games are universally less popular primarily due to reasons like difficulty and availability.

You're looking at the symptom here, not the cause. It's a self-perpetuating thing and by embracing it as a boy's club is making it worse. Not to mention, games were initially popular with everybody, and still are. Here, watch some stuff.

i've seen people get into fist fights over sports teams before. what does that have to do with anything here? people go to sports games and get drunk and get super passionate about their teams and decide they want to get in a fight. people who harass women are widely condemned by nearly everyone and if any man gets physical with a woman on the streets that guy is gonna get the shit beaten out of him by many people 9/10 times. im not telling people to suck it up and deal with it if they're being harassed in real life, but in an online game it's not that big of a deal. people just need to know going into it, yeah sometimes people are gonna be pieces of shit and it sucks but there's not a lot you can do and these game companies are attempting to do something about it. in every online game i can think of people do get punished for trolling or making racist or sexist comments. im also aware that fanservice can turn people away from the series but what you were saying was that it specifically turns women away from the series. i also think you're missing my point about the older fire emblem games. when those came out there was still a disparity between the genders on who was buying and playing those games. therefore, fanservice most likely isnt the reason girls are less into the fire emblem series. 

[Johann]

1 hour ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

i've seen people get into fist fights over sports teams before. what does that have to do with anything here? people go to sports games and get drunk and get super passionate about their teams and decide they want to get in a fight. people who harass women are widely condemned by nearly everyone and if any man gets physical with a woman on the streets that guy is gonna get the shit beaten out of him by many people 9/10 times. im not telling people to suck it up and deal with it if they're being harassed in real life, but in an online game it's not that big of a deal. people just need to know going into it, yeah sometimes people are gonna be pieces of shit and it sucks but there's not a lot you can do and these game companies are attempting to do something about it. in every online game i can think of people do get punished for trolling or making racist or sexist comments.

Allow me to reiterate from my original post: Hypermasculinity in the gaming community is responsible for creating an uncomfortable space for women. Here's a fairly detailed description of it from youtuber Pop Culture Detective (Jonathan McIntosh), as he did two pieces on Masculinity and the show Big Bang Theory (transcript here):

Quote

 

"In order to move forward in this discussion, we’re gonna have to get academic just for a minute and very quickly define a couple of terms: those are hegemonic masculinity and hypermasculinity.

Hegemonic masculinity is a term that’s used to describe the socially constructed ideal of manhood. It’s characterized by things like physical strength, aggression, domination, suppression of emotions, and heterosexuality. The ideal varies somewhat based on factors like geography but here I’m concerned with white western manhood as shaped by Hollywood. For obvious examples think of Conan the Barbarian, James Bond, or Captain America.

The important thing to understand about this manhood ideal is that it’s a fiction. It only really exists in the cultural imagination, which means that men can never actually achieve it. However it’s still a standard against which men are held and compared. The social expectations and pressures on men to try to achieve some version of it is real, as is the social status either lost or gained based on a man’s perceived proximity to that ideal.

The term hypermasculinity is a little different. It refers to the set of attitudes and behaviors associated with the pursuit of the hegemonic ideal. Hypermasculinity includes things like aggressive competition, sexual conquest and destructive or risk-taking behavior like fighting, reckless driving or heavy drinking. Hypermasculinity is also obsessively anti-feminine. ...[O]ne of the ways men learn to perform manhood is by exerting power over others."

 

The root of the aggression, sexual misconduct, etc can be traced to these promoted ideals of masculinity and the sexualization of women, which is ever present in games, movies, etc. It is the reason why many males in gaming choose to behave the way they do around others, especially females. In games, much like sports and other forms of competition, many males have a platform in which they can demonstrate their ability and supposed power in front of others. If they feel like they're going to lose that platform, they're going to lash out, and many people are going to find that not fun or worth their time.

It might not seem like a big deal because it's online, but it's having serious effects on the people who are participating, by promoting that negative behavior which they carry into their real lives. It also aggressively furthers the misconception that games are a boy thing, and so the industry responds by catering to the boys.

1 hour ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

im also aware that fanservice can turn people away from the series but what you were saying was that it specifically turns women away from the series. i also think you're missing my point about the older fire emblem games. when those came out there was still a disparity between the genders on who was buying and playing those games. therefore, fanservice most likely isnt the reason girls are less into the fire emblem series. 

Then allow me to clarify; fanservice turns all kinds of people away, but I would say Fire Emblem occasionally creates bland characters who are no more than sexualized objects. Meanwhile, the gender disparity in older games was more due to the "games are for boys" mentality and advertising.

[Lau]

Eh, I think it's because gamers are predominantly male, though I reckon that there are more female FE fans than male, have you not seen tumblr?

As for fanservice...idk. There's a lot that appeals to the males, like scantily clad women, but there's also a lot that appeals to the females like men in swimsuits, or simply people just liking fanservice in general. Also the fact that the characters are, for the most part, really good looking? Like, I'm not ashamed to admit that I found Marth and Roy really cute in Smash, leading to me getting into FE.

[edgelordweeaboo]

21 hours ago, Johann said:

Allow me to reiterate from my original post: Hypermasculinity in the gaming community is responsible for creating an uncomfortable space for women. Here's a fairly detailed description of it from youtuber Pop Culture Detective (Jonathan McIntosh), as he did two pieces on Masculinity and the show Big Bang Theory (transcript here):

The root of the aggression, sexual misconduct, etc can be traced to these promoted ideals of masculinity and the sexualization of women, which is ever present in games, movies, etc. It is the reason why many males in gaming choose to behave the way they do around others, especially females. In games, much like sports and other forms of competition, many males have a platform in which they can demonstrate their ability and supposed power in front of others. If they feel like they're going to lose that platform, they're going to lash out, and many people are going to find that not fun or worth their time.

It might not seem like a big deal because it's online, but it's having serious effects on the people who are participating, by promoting that negative behavior which they carry into their real lives. It also aggressively furthers the misconception that games are a boy thing, and so the industry responds by catering to the boys.

Then allow me to clarify; fanservice turns all kinds of people away, but I would say Fire Emblem occasionally creates bland characters who are no more than sexualized objects. Meanwhile, the gender disparity in older games was more due to the "games are for boys" mentality and advertising.

Sexualization of women just isn't the cause of sexual harassment and it never will be. Games have implemented features such as muting as well to deal with trolling/racism/sexism. Also I think it's kind of stupid to say that women can't handle trolling/racism/sexism and therefore get turned away from video games. Men experience shit too in online games and most men deal with it. Seems a little sexist maybe to say that women can't handle trolling/racism/sexism. I understand what hypermasculinity is and it's pretty stupid but it's there and sometimes you have to deal with stupid shit. When it does lead to sexual assaults and violence that's a real problem but I don't believe it to be anywhere close to the root cause of violence or sexual assault. Also the "promoting negative behavior that will carry over to real life thing" sounds a lot like the "shooting people in video games will carry over into real life" thing. Also just want to show you something:

Oh yeah, man look at all these just pushing so hard that there are no girls allowed! Man after seeing how the game is advertised I totally understand! Just really sending those messages that no girls play the game or should play the game! Oh wait... 

[Johann]

9 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

Sexualization of women just isn't the cause of sexual harassment and it never will be. Games have implemented features such as muting as well to deal with trolling/racism/sexism. Also I think it's kind of stupid to say that women can't handle trolling/racism/sexism and therefore get turned away from video games. Men experience shit too in online games and most men deal with it. Seems a little sexist maybe to say that women can't handle trolling/racism/sexism. I understand what hypermasculinity is and it's pretty stupid but it's there and sometimes you have to deal with stupid shit. When it does lead to sexual assaults and violence that's a real problem but I don't believe it to be anywhere close to the root cause of violence or sexual assault. Also the "promoting negative behavior that will carry over to real life thing" sounds a lot like the "shooting people in video games will carry over into real life" thing.

Sexualization of women in media is definitely a factor as to why men engage in sexually harassing behavior. There are plenty of peer-reviewed sociological studies that show that media isn't particularly great at shaping behavior (ie: playing games where you shoot people does not statistically make you more likely to go outside and shoot people), but rather media is great at shaping worldview, whether you realize it or not (ie: "I'm a nice person so I deserve a girlfriend"). In media, it's not unusual to see our "hero" use violence to solve problems, but in the real world, how often does that really happen without serious consequences?

Sexualized female characters (not be confused with sexual female characters) are objectified and reinforce the notions that 1) a female's value is based on her sexual attractiveness and availability, and 2) women to want to be sexually desired and pursued by men if they look or behave a certain way. These notions create mindsets where men feel like they can talk or behave in a sexual manner because they think it'll actually be reciprocated. That's why you hear bullshit phrases like "she was asking for it by the way she was dressing" or "she's just a prude/stuck-up bitch", when the women involved didn't even want anything to do with those men. The important thing to understand here is that all forms of media have the potential to change the worldviews of their audience, and show masculinity in more healthy ways (such as empathy), which would go a long way in undermining hypermasculinity and its consequences.

You misunderstand what I said about dealing with harassment; I didn't say that these women (or anyone else) can't handle it, it's that they decide it's not worth their time. Choosing not to play is not the same as not being able to handle it. It's too bad you have to deal with that shit online, but many women have to deal with it practically anywhere they go.

9 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

Also just want to show you something:

Oh yeah, man look at all these just pushing so hard that there are no girls allowed! Man after seeing how the game is advertised I totally understand! Just really sending those messages that no girls play the game or should play the game! Oh wait... 

I'm looking at this more from the lens of the western market; I don't know what the breakdown of gamers by gender looks like in Japan. More importantly, I'm attributing the player gender disparity to the stigma that follows gaming in general, with the Fire Emblem series having little blame due to being largely unknown in western mainstream culture.

I'm glad we're having this discussion because there are some things here that everybody, not just you, should be aware of (hence the bolded phrases).

[edgelordweeaboo]

36 minutes ago, Johann said:

Sexualization of women in media is definitely a factor as to why men engage in sexually harassing behavior. There are plenty of peer-reviewed sociological studies that show that media isn't particularly great at shaping behavior (ie: playing games where you shoot people does not statistically make you more likely to go outside and shoot people), but rather media is great at shaping worldview, whether you realize it or not (ie: "I'm a nice person so I deserve a girlfriend"). In media, it's not unusual to see our "hero" use violence to solve problems, but in the real world, how often does that really happen without serious consequences?

Sexualized female characters (not be confused with sexual female characters) are objectified and reinforceYour  the notions that 1) a female's value is based on her sexual attractiveness and availability, and 2) women to want to be sexually desired and pursued by men if they look or behave a certain way. These notions create mindsets where men feel like they can talk or behave in a sexual manner because they think it'll actually be reciprocated. That's why you hear bullshit phrases like "she was asking for it by the way she was dressing" or "she's just a prude/stuck-up bitch", when the women involved didn't even want anything to do with those men. The important thing to understand here is that all forms of media have the potential to change the worldviews of their audience, and show masculinity in more healthy ways (such as empathy), which would go a long way in undermining hypermasculinity and its consequences.

You misunderstand what I said about dealing with harassment; I didn't say that these women (or anyone else) can't handle it, it's that they decide it's not worth their time. Choosing not to play is not the same as not being able to handle it. It's too bad you have to deal with that shit online, but many women have to deal with it practically anywhere they go.

I'm looking at this more from the lens of the western market; I don't know what the breakdown of gamers by gender looks like in Japan. More importantly, I'm attributing the player gender disparity to the stigma that follows gaming in general, with the Fire Emblem series having little blame due to being largely unknown in western mainstream culture.

I'm glad we're having this discussion because there are some things here that everybody, not just you, should be aware of (hence the bolded phrases).

One thing you haven't taken into account once in all of this is biology. A major reason why men act masculine outside of the social aspect is because males produce more testosterone. People who say "she was asking for it" or "she's a prude/stuck up bitch" are generally not doing it because of something they saw in a game. They're saying it because they're desperate losers and complete assholes who think they're owed something for existing. Same with the nice guys bullshit. Media really doesn't change people's whole worldview that much either. It does to some extent but in media now men are already shown in many different ways outside of just being hypermasculine. Also it doesn't just end online for all men either. Also what stigma around gaming? If anything people who act like gaming is complete hell for all women and that women aren't allowed in gaming are why it seems like it's become more stigmatized.