Which Fire emblem game has the best cast of characters? Personality wise.

[Interdimensional Observer]

51 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There are some good Gharnefs like Nergal, Lyon, Manfroy and Izuka if he counts. Its only after the Tellius games that they stopped putting any effort into characters of this archtype for some weird reason. Jedah ranks somewhere in the middle, he's kinda generic but he got some things going for him too like a solid motive and actually being kinda selfless in his own weird and creepy little way. 

Well Sephiran also qualifies for the Gharnef Archetype in the sense he is a villain, he manipulates, and he uses magic. Though he seriously messes with the archetype in breaking with the mwahaha, the ugliness, the darkness, the lack of subtlety, and the tragedy unfelt in the background (we actually feel it here). Of course you could place him like Lyon out of the archetype entirely.

 

On 1/15/2018 at 3:37 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Moving from Valter I'll now discuss what makes Carlyle a good villain.

Caellach, Carlyle is the lovesick traitor to Ismaire who is annoying to fight since Wind Sword + throne avoid on a Swordmaster is a slow murder if you don't like being criticaled.

 

On 1/15/2018 at 3:37 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

From the very moment Valter picked up Duessel's family Cursed Lance was the moment the darkness within him was brought to light letting go of what held him back and to let loose into the madness that he succumbed to his bloodlust.

I actually don't like them pulling the Cursed Lance thing. Valter is best not pitied in the least. I'd rather him just be a natural born serial killer with no magical artifact that drives him over the edge.

On 1/15/2018 at 3:37 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

However, at the very least given his arcehtype with characters like Judah and Validar his motivation is better because you have to take in mind he was cast out of his country,

Of which we know nothing. It appears in a boss conversation once and nothing more. Call him a foil to Duessel all you want, Duessel might have depth, but I could rip a thicker piece of foil off some leftover fried chicken in the fridge than Riev. Shall I mention how he says he had a grand plan for Rausten's Sacred Stone? Of which we see nothing save a generic easy attack in the night?

On 1/15/2018 at 3:37 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The game has a strong overall cast

I will play the Demon King's advocate here. Neimi is... well I wanna cry! Tana is typical for a perky pega princess. Eirika- typical. Ephraim- Hector with a perfection streak. Ewan is just a shota mage. Gilliam and Moulder are so very dull. Lute knows everything, including how one note she is. Joshua- way too much gambling! If FE8 ever gets a remake, I need him to be in the actual plot. Since him being real princey and developed isn't really well treated in his supports, and his Eirika route boss convo with Caellach and Ismaire conversation aren't enough.

I won't attack everyone even in persona as Formortiis's vessel, since there is good in the roster I must concede. I like Gerik in particular, and Cormag is solid. But perfection it is not. Admittedly some characters are ones where you might like them or might not- Lute and Tana for instance. And then someone like Vanessa is so very ordinary which isn't bad nor good in itself. Forde and Kyle have been done before (albeit Forde is the probably the best carefree Cavalier).

Honestly, every cast since FE7 is arguably weak or arguably strong, save for the DS remakes for obvious reasons and most of RD's new additions to PoR's cast.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Caellach, Carlyle is the lovesick traitor to Ismaire who is annoying to fight since Wind Sword + throne avoid on a Swordmaster is a slow murder if you don't like being criticaled.

You should have looked at my previous post because I meant to say Caellach, but I couldn't edit my post because apparently my post before it was too big. But as for Carlyle yes he got what is rightfully deserved especially after saying he no longer cares nothing for his countrymen. Even then I still felt some pity for him because he withheld his feelings for so long to the point that they could be even used to have him turn on his country. This is why keeping things in is never a good thing and why I view him as a foil like Orson to Seth had he himself never revealed his feelings for Eirika in their A support. It's because for what we get to see of the turmoil he has kept dormant and that as you said ends up being a very good boss in a easy game like Sacred Stones that he ends up being a memorable minor villain.

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I actually don't like them pulling the Cursed Lance thing. Valter is best not pitied in the least. I'd rather him just be a natural born serial killer with no magical artifact that drives him over the edge.

I don't see that as the point of the reveal throughout the Duessel and Cormag support. It was if anything to give Cormag and the viewer a better understanding of what has led to Valter or anyone in his position could have ended up as in having their inner demons awaken hence Riev's talk of how man's morality cannot win and take away that and they become a unrelenting force that will do even the most inhumane acts. Valter was a deplorable sadistic monster in the view by ally and foe alike that received his judgement in earning a sorry end to his messy life.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Of which we know nothing. It appears in a boss conversation once and nothing more. Call him a foil to Duessel all you want, Duessel might have depth, but I could rip a thicker piece of foil off some leftover fried chicken in the fridge than Riev. Shall I mention how he says he had a grand plan for Rausten's Sacred Stone? Of which we see nothing save a generic easy attack in the night?

He was a revered priest of Rausten who was banished by Pontifex Mansel for heresy and worshiping the Demon King. While he was exiled his wanting revenge makes sense even though it was a rightfully so one, especially when he could have simply been executed so Mansel's decision was an act of mercy, but for Riev it's seen as living in disgrace and having perhaps feeling betrayed by his own homeland. Duessel and Riev are foils in the context of the story as they are loyal to their lords Vigarde and Lyon respectively as long as they agree with their lord's ideals (Lyon simply hides his true nature in Ephraim's route, while Vigarde doesn't) and as I said end up fighting the opposite side against each other. If you cannot see that then that's just on you because you view Riev as such a weak character to Dussel which he most certainly is no question about it, but the fact remains it's still evidently seen in the story. The only thing I view for Riev is that he's better than the Gharnef arcehtype characters I have mentioned due to motivation, but even then that's not much of a compliment. I really shouldn't have had to repeat that and therefore I'm not discussing him again.

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

If you cannot see that then that's just on you because you view Riev as such a weak character to Dussel which he most certainly is no question about it, but the fact remains it's still evidently seen in the story.

You're serious in your devotion to SS, that I can clearly tell. Perhaps a little too serious, but be as you will, there is nothing really wrong with that. Many would disagree with your assessment and say you're reading too much into things that IS never really intended. But try to bear the difference of opinion with calm instead of writing essays for responses. It's better that way, including for yourself because you don't really want to burn yourself out on this kind of thing.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You're serious in your devotion to SS, that I can clearly tell. Perhaps a little too serious, but be as you will, there is nothing really wrong with that. Many would disagree with your assessment and say you're reading too much into things that IS never really intended. But try to bear the difference of opinion with calm instead of writing essays for responses. It's better that way, including for yourself because you don't really want to burn yourself out on this kind of thing.

Well the "many" as you put it are free to to do so and I'll refute if I am able with any evidence throughout the story. I mean we are in the debate section so that shouldn't come as a surprise. And I was, it's just that your statement sounded bias in just how you worded that as though the two characters shouldn't even be compared. I do by all means have a favoritism for SS (along with the Tellius games), but just because I do doesn't mean I wouldn't compare some stuff with other titles or just two similar characters.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Well the "many" as you put it are free to to do so and I'll refute if I am able with any evidence throughout the story. I mean we are in the debate section so that shouldn't come as a surprise. And I was, it's just that your statement sounded bias in just how you worded that as though the two characters shouldn't even be compared.

Well I admit to being a little harsh, I wasn't quite my usual, hopefully neutral-ish self. My fault.

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

They are but I don't give them much props for that. DLC is for fanservice and interesting new additions. Necessities belong in the main game and with her prominence in the story Azura is clearly a necessity. While I don't particularly like Tharja myself I'd say her popularity and status makes her a necessity too. If those two were swapped out for the little sisters who I view more as fanservice or nice extra's instead of necessities then it would already be a lot better. 

As someone who likes the little sisters and isn't a fan of Tharja, I strongly disagree - hell, I dare say you just crossed the line where I have to say "them's fightin' words". What the bloody hell would Tharja add to the game??? Calling her a "necessity" is a joke. Also, I consider bow-only missions painful enough as is thanks to the lack of bows (there's only Takumi, Sakura, and Anna - and the last one requires a lot of work to get) - especially the Ally Rescue mission on Together to the End, which would be practically unplayable with only Takumi.

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As someone who likes the little sisters and isn't a fan of Tharja, I strongly disagree - hell, I dare say you just crossed the line where I have to say "them's fightin' words". What the bloody hell would Tharja add to the game??? Calling her a "necessity" is a joke. Also, I consider bow-only missions painful enough as is thanks to the lack of bows (there's only Takumi, Sakura, and Anna - and the last one requires a lot of work to get) - especially the Ally Rescue mission on Together to the End, which would be practically unplayable with only Takumi.

While I agree that Tharja really isn't a necessity, I have one particular issue with bow users. 

They are all the exact same playstyle. Would have been great if at least one of them had a unique playstyle, but nope.

[Shadow Mir]

On January 15, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

He is but I don't think that's much of a problem with Riev. 

Riev is like one of one of the blander Gharnef types like Validar and Gharnef but that's never a problem because unlike those two the story never requires Riev to have any relevance he can't back up. He's not the main villain, the genius puppet master or the villain most frequently encountered by the hero. He's just an evil priest who stays in the shadows or at Lyon's side. He's there to suggest something more is going on and to increase the size of the villain roster.  

He also accomplishes nothing of note whatsoever, unlike those two, or at least Gharnef. And I'd say Sacred Stones having far more villains than it knew what to do with is to blame for this (you don't honestly expect to have ten villains in a game like Sacred Stones, which is rather short by Fire Emblem standards, and not expect at least some of them to suffer for it, now do you???). His lack of motivations doesn't really help his case either, and only makes him feel like he's just there, as if he doesn't already feel that way.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[thedman975]

On 12/22/2017 at 9:23 PM, Armagon said:

Alright, whether or not you like Roy as a character, i'm not even gonna get into because it's all subjective but to say that he has no personality, charisma, or talent is factually incorrect. About a year ago, a thread was made asking which Lord you would follow into battle (basically which Lord is the best leader). Most people chose Roy for very valid reasons. I recommend you go read that thread.

Ok I read alot of the thread and concede that my statement was incorrect. He is cunning and that's it. And to be honest all of is tactical moves are things that anyone of average intelligence (especially someone schooled in battle tactics by a premier general) would have been able to deduce. What Efflin is more than a bard? No way? He tricked that obviously evil guy into revealing himself after Cath gave him all of his information? Amazing! He's not that smart because he still can't see the obvious signs that several female characters in the army like him for some reason. Some of his feats of kindness are also just things that literally any good person would do avoiding bloodshed when possible and helping people in need aren't exactly revolutionary. He's a good guy, he's a little cunning, and that's as far as his personality and talents go. He's bland at best with no interesting traits or opinions. He just reacts to everything that happens in the same calm monotone manner. Also while yes opinions are subjective there are objective facts behind them so while no opinion or stance is factually correct there is value in seeing which stance is better supported by the evidence. 

[thedman975]

On 12/23/2017 at 6:31 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree with most of this - outside of L'arachel, frankly, most of the Sacred Stones cast was either forgettable, bland, or made me want to roll my eyes... and the villains were hurt by a clear case of quantity over quality (ergo, villain overload; it ain't enough that we have the Grado generals, but we also have Orson, Vigarde, the Demon King, and Lyon as well; even if they weren't, I fail to see what's so good about Orson or the new generals that Vigarde added to his Imperial Three). For these, and other reasons, I think that Sacred Stones's cast is the weakest outside of Archanea. As for Eirika, I'll just say that I think your explanation's flimsy and unacceptable.

I wasn't defending Eirika I actually criticized her. I think the only thing positive I said about her and Ephraim were that they were charming. So yes, i suppose I did rate FE 8 to high, although I feel as though while many of the cast is forgettable at first glance, they become more interesting when you read the support chain. And while their were definitely a few quality villains overall your criticism of them is accurate. However, to say that its cast is weaker than The Binding Blade, whose non-generic charachters i can count on my hands, and fates which was filled with anime cliches, is ridiculous.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, thedman975 said:

I wasn't defending Eirika I actually criticized her. I think the only thing positive I said about her and Ephraim were that they were charming. So yes, i suppose I did rate FE 8 to high, although I feel as though while many of the cast is forgettable at first glance, they become more interesting when you read the support chain. And while their were definitely a few quality villains overall your criticism of them is accurate. However, to say that its cast is weaker than The Binding Blade, whose non-generic charachters i can count on my hands, and fates which was filled with anime cliches, is ridiculous.

The issue is, to get these supports, I have to tolerate a primitive support system (the GBA support system tends to get a lot of hate these days because of needing to stall for dozens of turns just to unlock ONE of, let alone the 5, supports a unit can get). This isn't really helped by the fact that most supports tended to be slow to grow unless the characters happened to know each other before the game (most apparent in Sword of Seals, but still prominent in the other two games to a lesser extent). Nor does it that some characters just get shafted with nothing but slow supports. Anyways, it isn't like Sacred Stones is not guilty of having cliches or generic characters...

Edited January 19, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Armagon]

7 hours ago, thedman975 said:

Ok I read alot of the thread and concede that my statement was incorrect. He is cunning and that's it. And to be honest all of is tactical moves are things that anyone of average intelligence (especially someone schooled in battle tactics by a premier general) would have been able to deduce. What Efflin is more than a bard? No way? He tricked that obviously evil guy into revealing himself after Cath gave him all of his information? Amazing! He's not that smart because he still can't see the obvious signs that several female characters in the army like him for some reason. Some of his feats of kindness are also just things that literally any good person would do avoiding bloodshed when possible and helping people in need aren't exactly revolutionary. He's a good guy, he's a little cunning, and that's as far as his personality and talents go. He's bland at best with no interesting traits or opinions. He just reacts to everything that happens in the same calm monotone manner. Also while yes opinions are subjective there are objective facts behind them so while no opinion or stance is factually correct there is value in seeing which stance is better supported by the evidence. 

By this logic, literally every Lord is shit because the stuff they do can be done with anyone with the right training, intelligence. Like, what????? Personality is subjective but invalidating Roy's feats because "anyone can do them" is invalidating the feats of every Lord in the series and pretty much any character in fiction. 

[Icelerate]

On 12/22/2017 at 9:23 PM, Armagon said:

Alright, whether or not you like Roy as a character, i'm not even gonna get into because it's all subjective but to say that he has no personality, charisma, or talent is factually incorrect. About a year ago, a thread was made asking which Lord you would follow into battle (basically which Lord is the best leader). Most people chose Roy for very valid reasons. I recommend you go read that thread.

Well people just said he's the best tactician without actually providing hard proof. Not saying he isn't but I haven't played that game. I've only watched an LP so I wouldn't know. As far as I know, Micaiah or even Ike are better tacticians. I'm actually curious as to the reasoning because I do enjoy reading about strategy and tactics. 

[RuleOfRose]

Best: Tellius Saga by far. Large and various cast.

FE8 and Echoes have some interesting characters. And GBA have a great design and the Remaka go back in a Fe-Type design' since awakening.

The Worst is Awakening, awful characters, boring for the better, (with despite some exeptions),and the design of them are the worst ever, (what's Cavalier's and Knight's Armors ? WTF )

 

Lot of people criticize Fates but IMO they tried to fix their mistakes, it's not perfect, but it's always better than FE13.

(And it's subjective anyway)

Edited January 25, 2018 by RuleOfRose

[thedman975]

On 1/19/2018 at 9:11 PM, Armagon said:

By this logic, literally every Lord is shit because the stuff they do can be done with anyone with the right training, intelligence. Like, what????? Personality is subjective but invalidating Roy's feats because "anyone can do them" is invalidating the feats of every Lord in the series and pretty much any character in fiction. 

The point is that there's nothing unique or interesting about Roy. If practically everyone can do something than it is not a "feat." Figuring out things that are blatantly obvious doesn't make you cunning. When I briefly mentioned his training with Cecilia my point wasn't that Roy is a bad character because anyone with the right training could have done what he did in the story, my point was that anyone with HIS training could have done what he did in the story. Roy isn't smart, the story just says he is. He has virtually no personality or development throughout the campaign and honestly that's almost as bad if not as bad as Corrin. Roy is one of the worst Lords in the franchise and no where near the best character in his game. Clarine, Dieck, Rutger, Melady, Perceval (I could go on for a while) all outclass Roy as characters (almost as much as they outclass him as units). Also yes personality is subjective but that doesn't mean a good character doesn't need to have one. I'm not saying Roy has a bad personality I'm saying he has no personality he literally justs reacts to everything in the same standard way everysingle time. So no, invalidating Roys "feats" because "anyone cand do them" is not invalidating the feats of every Lord in the series and pretty much any character in fiction because almost all good characters in fictions and good lords in this series have personalities, opinions/beliefs, and actual "feats" or interesting choices, of which Roy has none.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

The point is that there's nothing unique or interesting about Roy.

Subjective

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

When I briefly mentioned his training with Cecilia my point wasn't that Roy is a bad character because anyone with the right training could have done what he did in the story, my point was that anyone with HIS training could have done what he did in the story.

You can literally apply this to every hero in fiction. Let's take a look at Ike. By your logic, anyone with Ike's training could've also done what he did in the story, therefore making Ike a bad character.

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

Roy isn't smart, the story just says he is.

???????????????

If the story says he's smart, then he's smart. Unless there is a very, very clear contradiction (for example, saying Roy can fly when he actually can't).

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

He has virtually no personality

His personality is mostly the same as Marth's and Seliph's. Do those guys not have personality either?

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

or development throughout the campaign

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

I'm not saying Roy has a bad personality I'm saying he has no personality he literally justs reacts to everything in the same standard way everysingle time

That's more of an issue with the presentation than Roy himself. You can apply this to FE1-5 as well. 

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

Clarine, Dieck, Rutger, Melady, Perceval (I could go on for a while) all outclass Roy as characters

Once again, that's subjective.

1 hour ago, thedman975 said:

pretty much any character in fiction because almost all good characters in fictions and good lords in this series have personalities, opinions/beliefs, and actual "feats" or interesting choices, of which Roy has none.

Again, subjective. You're really riding this Roy hate train aren't you? Most of your argument is either heavily biased or just straight-up flawed.

[ping]

The thing about Roy is that he has very little personal struggle throughout the game. He doesn't really have to question himself outside of supports, he doesn't have any moral dilemmata to go through (he always just goes the idealistic path and gets through with it), it's not really brought up outside of supports that he would put on a façade. This does separate him from Marth, who in FE11 has to sacrifice others for the greater good (with horrible gameplay integration, but that's besides the point) and whose "I am a prince before a son or brother" line characterizes much of his internal struggle throughout the game.

Note that I do like Roy as a stand-in for the player precisely because his personality is less pronounced that those of other FE lords (and I find that especially in Kris' case, the predefined character makes it way harder for the player to identify with the avatar), but as a standalone character, Roy isn't particularly interesting.

€: I do think that Roy is still better than Rutger's "Grr, grr, revenge, grr" shtick, though :D

Edited February 4, 2018 by ping

[thedman975]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

The point is that there's nothing unique or interesting about Roy.

Subjective

Ok so u can't dismiss criticisms with "subjective." While "interesting" certainly is subjective, "unique" is not. Roy has no characteristics that differentiate him from the other Lords in this series. 

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

 

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

When I briefly mentioned his training with Cecilia my point wasn't that Roy is a bad character because anyone with the right training could have done what he did in the story, my point was that anyone with HIS training could have done what he did in the story.

You can literally apply this to every hero in fiction. Let's take a look at Ike. By your logic, anyone with Ike's training could've also done what he did in the story, therefore making Ike a bad character.

No, they could not have done what Ike did because they would not have had his character traits, talents, and possibly his determination. There's a difference between me saying "anyone who took four years of high school could figure out 2+5" and "anyone who went took Political Science courses in college could become President of the United States." The point I'm trying to make hear is that the evidence people use to say Roy is clever, his "feats" of tactical ability, were so basic that literally anyone who studied this could have done it. If he had developed some strategy so genius that no one saw it coming and it decimated the enemy forces than I wouldn't be saying that. But his plan to deceive the obviously evil Lycian that imprisoned Sue was to just play dumb. Literally common sense, not to mention Cath already gave him all of his information and he couldn't figure things out on his own.

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

Roy isn't smart, the story just says he is.

???????????????

If the story says he's smart, then he's smart. Unless there is a very, very clear contradiction (for example, saying Roy can fly when he actually can't).

There are clear contradictions. How was Roy not able to determine that the obviously evil Lycian vassal was evil without the knowledge being spoonfed by Cath. How is Roy not able to figure out when any of the women in the army are in love with him when literally everyone, including the reader, can. A story can say whatever it wants about a character but if it doesn't demonstrate it than what impact does it have? If I write that character x is smart but he rarely figures things out than he isn't that smart.

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

or development throughout the campaign

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

I'm not saying Roy has a bad personality I'm saying he has no personality he literally justs reacts to everything in the same standard way everysingle time

That's more of an issue with the presentation than Roy himself. You can apply this to FE1-5 as well. 

No the issue is both. And Fe 4's Sigurd was way more interesting and Fe 6 has better written characters with actual personalities so "other games did it as well" is not an excuse.

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

Clarine, Dieck, Rutger, Melady, Perceval (I could go on for a while) all outclass Roy as characters

Once again, that's subjective.

WHAT? OPINIONS ARE SUBJECTIVE? SHOCKER. What's the point of discussion or debate if we're just going to say things like "that's subjective" or "that's ur opinion" 

On 2/3/2018 at 10:22 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 PM, thedman975 said:

pretty much any character in fiction because almost all good characters in fictions and good lords in this series have personalities, opinions/beliefs, and actual "feats" or interesting choices, of which Roy has none.

Again, subjective. You're really riding this Roy hate train aren't you? Most of your argument is either heavily biased or just straight-up flawed.

Saying "x has a personality" is not subjective. Saying "x has an opinion" is not subjective. Subjective does not equal completely useless or biased. Honestly I thought I was in the minority hating Roy because of how well he did in the first CYL poll. But if there is a "hate train" it is clearly justified. Also u have to actually demonstrate that my argument is flawed, constantly saying "subjective" does not do that.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

Roy has no characteristics that differentiate him from the other Lords in this series. 

You do realize that, by using this statement, you're implying that all Lords are the same, right? If Roy is boring, so is every Lord in the series.

5 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

No, they could not have done what Ike did because they would not have had his character traits, talents, and possibly his determination.

So you're saying that Ike is the most unique character ever written? ....What?

9 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

The point I'm trying to make hear is that the evidence people use to say Roy is clever, his "feats" of tactical ability, were so basic that literally anyone who studied this could have done it. If he had developed some strategy so genius that no one saw it coming and it decimated the enemy forces than I wouldn't be saying that. But his plan to deceive the obviously evil Lycian that imprisoned Sue was to just play dumb. Literally common sense, not to mention Cath already gave him all of his information and he couldn't figure things out on his own.

Do you know what dramatic irony is? It's when the audience knows something that the characters don't. Yes, to the players, that Lycian was obviously evil but to Roy, he wasn't. That does not make Roy a bad character. Celica gets a lot of criticism for something similar when she trusts Jedah. Jedah looks like a Scooby-Doo villain but to the characters, Jedah looks normal (i guess blue skin is just common in Valentia). 

17 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

How was Roy not able to determine that the obviously evil Lycian vassal was evil without the knowledge being spoonfed by Cath. How is Roy not able to figure out when any of the women in the army are in love with him when literally everyone, including the reader, can. A story can say whatever it wants about a character but if it doesn't demonstrate it than what impact does it have? If I write that character x is smart but he rarely figures things out than he isn't that smart.

All of this is literally dramatic irony, especially that bolded part.

18 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

And Fe 4's Sigurd was way more interesting

Uh, yeah, no. Gonna disagree there. Manga Sigurd is better but game Sigurd, i just could not give a damn about him.

22 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

Also u have to actually demonstrate that my argument is flawed, constantly saying "subjective" does not do that.

I do acknowledge that saying subjective doesn't demonstrate that your argument is flawed but everything else i've been saying does.

 

[thedman975]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:25 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

Roy has no characteristics that differentiate him from the other Lords in this series. 

You do realize that, by using this statement, you're implying that all Lords are the same, right? If Roy is boring, so is every Lord in the series.

No, I do not realize that because it is not true. If I say "there is nothing about this fps that differentiates it from others in this genre." I am not implying that all first person shooters are the same, I am saying that there was nothing unique about the one particular first person shooter.

On 2/16/2018 at 10:25 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

No, they could not have done what Ike did because they would not have had his character traits, talents, and possibly his determination.

So you're saying that Ike is the most unique character ever written? ....What?

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

No, I did not say that. Here "they" means "literally anyone" because that was a response to you saying that by my logic literally anyone could have done what Ike did. Its funny how instead of actually bothering to defend Roy you have to play this game of putting words in my mouth and crying "Subjective."

On 2/16/2018 at 10:25 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

The point I'm trying to make hear is that the evidence people use to say Roy is clever, his "feats" of tactical ability, were so basic that literally anyone who studied this could have done it. If he had developed some strategy so genius that no one saw it coming and it decimated the enemy forces than I wouldn't be saying that. But his plan to deceive the obviously evil Lycian that imprisoned Sue was to just play dumb. Literally common sense, not to mention Cath already gave him all of his information and he couldn't figure things out on his own.

Do you know what dramatic irony is? It's when the audience knows something that the characters don't. Yes, to the players, that Lycian was obviously evil but to Roy, he wasn't. That does not make Roy a bad character. Celica gets a lot of criticism for something similar when she trusts Jedah. Jedah looks like a Scooby-Doo villain but to the characters, Jedah looks normal (i guess blue skin is just common in Valentia). 

So dramatic irony is the new buzz word now? Yes I do know what that is thanks for asking. What that has to do with my criticism I don't see, however. You use Celica and Jedah as an example, but Jedah CLEARLY demonstrated that he was not trustworthy. He lead a cult of evil, Duma-worshiping priests, turned people into witches, and literally tried to kill Celica's entire party. Even Celica denoted that she had no reason to trust him at first so that kind of destroys your point right there. Celica's stupidity, (thinly veiled through excellent voice acting) is obvious both to the reader and the other characters who also don't trust Jedah so I fail to see your point. Roy should have been able to deduce that guy was evil instead of just being a little bit supsicious because of the overwhelming evidence the game gave (This is the most common fan translation):

Merlinus:
“Well, finally we can get a good night’s rest, Master Roy!”

Roy:
“I wonder. The man who said he was Lord Orun’s advisor…”

Merlinus:
“Wagner? Did he bother you in any way?”

Roy:
“He seemed to be in control of everything, as if he owned the place. And we can’t see Lord Orun because he’s ill? Something’s not right…”

Merlinus:
“Hmm… You do have a point, Master Roy.”

(Saul and Dorothy appear)

Saul:
“Excuse me, Master Roy. There seem to be an awful lot of soldiers patrolling the area.”

Dorothy:
“I think we’re being spied on.”

Roy:
“What? No…”

Cath:
“You noticed? Impressive.”

Roy:
“!? Show yourself, intruder!”

(Saul and Dorothy leave. Cath appears)

Cath:
“Hi!”

Roy:
“And…who might you be?”

Cath:
“Aw, we can talk about me later. You know, I overheard that Wagner guy talking in the main hall, and he said he’s going to ambush you guys.”

Roy:
“Lord Orun would never do that!”

Cath:
“Oh yeah, that person’s dead. That dark magician assassinated him or something.”

Roy:
“What!?”

Cath:
“And he’s going to capture you guys and turn you into Bern so he can join up with them.”

Merlinus:
“Hold it, Master Roy! Don’t trust people like this so easily!”

Cath:
“You can believe me or not, it’s up to you. But don’t come crying to me when you find yourselves in trouble!”

(Guinevere appears)

Guinevere:
“Roy…if what she says is true…”

Roy:
“Let’s set a trap. We’ll pretend we’re leaving. If Wagner is after us, he’ll do something to persuade us to stay.”

Cath:
“If you’re gonna go outside, use the room in the north! That room leads to the courtyard, so you’ll be out of here in no time. Good luck!”

From this we can make the conclusion that:

• Roy only managed to deduce that something wasn't right based off of the simple contradiction that Wagner was totally in charge despite Orun supposedly being sick, not dead, and that Wagner wasn't letting them see Orun. Again. Incredibly simple deduction that most ppl would have been able to make.
• A priest and his bodyguard noticed the oddly large amount of soldiers that Roy, a trained army commander and Merlinus, his personal advisor were oblivious to.
• Roy failed to deduce that he was being spied on when a young probably uneducated bodyguard managed to.
• While Roy was suspicious, he still believed Lord Orun was in charge despite the overwhelming evidence that even he commented on. When Cath told Roy that Wagner was planning to ambush them, he still trusted that "Lord Orun would never do that."
• Roy's plan, giving his sources and information, was not a "tactical feat" in any sense of the word. And furthermore the plan still got Roy attacked by Wagner's forces which outnumbered his. All it accomplished was to confirm what Cath said which could have been verified at a later time. Escape should have been Roy's main priority after walking into a trap.

On 2/16/2018 at 10:25 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

How was Roy not able to determine that the obviously evil Lycian vassal was evil without the knowledge being spoonfed by Cath. How is Roy not able to figure out when any of the women in the army are in love with him when literally everyone, including the reader, can. A story can say whatever it wants about a character but if it doesn't demonstrate it than what impact does it have? If I write that character x is smart but he rarely figures things out than he isn't that smart.

All of this is literally dramatic irony, especially that bolded part.

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, thedman975 said:

Yes this is obviously dramatic irony but that doesn't mean that it doesn't characterize Roy. It still happened within the story. Roy still failed to make simple deductions that the majority of ppl in that position (not just observing it through a screen) would have been able to do. For example, other characters clearly see that Lilina loves Roy. I understand that poorly using buzz words is easier than actually trying to defend Roy's character but you can also just admit that Roy isn't a good character.

[Armagon]

34 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

Here "they" means "literally anyone" because that was a response to you saying that by my logic literally anyone could have done what Ike did. Its funny how instead of actually bothering to defend Roy you have to play this game of putting words in my mouth and crying "Subjective."

I stopped using "subjective" but ok. But when you said

Quote

No, they could not have done what Ike did because they would not have had his character traits, talents, and possibly his determination.

You make it sound like Ike's character traits and talents are exclusive to him and absolutely no one else. That's why i don't agree with you when you say that Roy is bad for doing things anyone else could've done.  

34 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

So dramatic irony is the new buzz word now?

The fuck? That's basic literature terminology. How is it a buzz word? 

34 minutes ago, thedman975 said:

I understand that poorly using buzz words is easier than actually trying to defend Roy's character but you can also just admit that Roy isn't a good character.

I have been defending Roy this entire time but clearly nothing's getting through you and if you're gonna insult me, then i'm just not gonna take you seriously anymore.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Armagon

[thedman975]

On 2/18/2018 at 1:51 PM, Armagon said:

Quote

No, they could not have done what Ike did because they would not have had his character traits, talents, and possibly his determination.

You make it sound like Ike's character traits and talents are exclusive to him and absolutely no one else. That's why i don't agree with you when you say that Roy is bad for doing things anyone else could've done.  

They aren't exclusive purely to Ike but they are definitely rare. 

On 2/18/2018 at 1:51 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/18/2018 at 1:18 PM, thedman975 said:

So dramatic irony is the new buzz word now?

The fuck? That's basic literature terminology. How is it a buzz word? 

My point is that your using it like its a buzz word. Saying that something is just dramatic irony doesn't actually address the criticisms that I was making. 

On 2/18/2018 at 1:51 PM, Armagon said:

On 2/18/2018 at 1:18 PM, thedman975 said:

I understand that poorly using buzz words is easier than actually trying to defend Roy's character but you can also just admit that Roy isn't a good character.

I have been defending Roy this entire time but clearly nothing's getting through you and if you're gonna insult me, then i'm just not gonna take you seriously anymore.

Admittedly I could have worded this better and my tone wasn't very polite so i apologize but what I was trying to say here is that maybe I could see what you were saying better if you gave me something to like about Roy.

[Shadow Mir]

On January 15, 2018 at 1:37 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Okay, I'm going to have to heavily disagree with you as I feel you are giving Sacred Stone's cast a disservice, especially when saying someone like Lyon isn't a strong character in being a tragic antagonist despite the twists and turns he has have happened in his life as shown in the flashbacks and his relationship with the Renais twins with not just his admiration of them, but his hidden insecurities in not feeling worthy to stand beside them. I felt for him when he died so tragically, especially even despite it all his country still has the earthquake he sought so desperately to prevent and at the end game credits it was a sucker punch in the heart seeing his first meeting with Ephraim and Eirika in gaining friends that he loved. 

The game has a strong overall cast due to the fact because it's short one like SoV's playable cast (preferred Celica's party mainly or even Awakening and Conquest's playable casts which I happen to like as well) it doesn't suffer the many issues a game with a large cast like Blazing Blade or Radiant Dawn having go with on for their part. Though granted RD's case because some of the characters don't have much needed supports like Shadow Dragon's cast or just that pre-existing characters don't have anymore of a character arc because they're finished hence why some people complain about Ike but some are lucky like Rolf who gets further development given the case with his mother finishing his arc for good unlike somebody like Mia who could never find her white clad rival who has been part of her character motivation making her feel incomplete and heck I like her still, but I would have much more if it had been completed.

I will however agree with you on Riev, but only because it seems more so his role is to make the other two bad Grado generals stand out more or give more insight into them. However, at the very least given his arcehtype with characters like Judah and Validar his motivation is better because you have to take in mind he was cast out of his country, so I would say he's the worst of them, but not the best of them neither. He ends up being the foil to Dussel given that they both end up being both abandon by their homelands to fight for the opposite side against each other.

Speaking of which Sacred Stones ends up having the most of foil pairs from what I've seen throughout FE with examples like Lyon to Eirika/Ephraim and Seth to Orson/Carlyle. Here's a quote I have in replying to someone in Valter's defense (along with the some other foils):

 

"I'm going to have to respectfully challenge that about Valter because while true there is more to it than that. However first of all to get it out of the way Sacred Stones overall antagonists cast has a lot more character that stands out because I think it says something when even a minor antagonist like Carlyle can leave a impression and as mentioned Orson too with how he's written in displaying how despair can shape men who have lost what they loved and essentially even fought for. Sacred Stones easily has more good villains/antagonists than any other FE game in my eyes of the localized games. A large reason I like the Grado generals is that they to act as foils off each other and here are the pairs that are foils:

Glen/Valter

Selena/Caellach - Both are the least extreme of their own general triad (Selena had doubts about Grado but remained loyal, unlike Duessel and Glen; Caellach is a bastard, but Valter and Riev are both monsters). Selena is extremely loyal to Vigarde, while Caellach is The Starscream and mocks him whenever he can get away with it.

Duessel/Riev - Both are loyal to their lords (Vigarde and Lyon) as long as they agree with their Lord's ideals (Lyon simply hides his true nature in Ephraim's route, while Vigarde doesn't), both abandon their homeland (Grado and Rausten) to fight for the opposite side against each other.  

 

Now then in regards to Valter. The reason why he's one of my favorite villains in the series is because sure he's evil, but there is depth to his madness in how he's a example of men in war and just how it can shape them to be at their worse.

 

In quoting Riev: Ah, Valter... You're a beast. You're bound to no country. You care nothing for friend or foe. Kill a man, claim a woman... You live for nothing more, you wretched beast. That's your strength. That's what makes you stronger than any man alive. A beast acts without remorse. Man's morality cannot win. It's nature's way...

 

Riev is saying that Valter had to become or rather adapt to what he has become in order to survive. Valter from the beginning was no gentle lamb as Duessel puts it, but at the very least still human in having some kind of morality. From the very moment Valter picked up Duessel's family Cursed Lance was the moment the darkness within him was brought to light letting go of what held him back and to let loose into the madness that he succumbed to his bloodlust. The thing about it is that Valter probably had no choice in the matter as they were in a battle and seeing as how his lance broke he needed a nearby one as soon as possible to fight with so he may live. 

Valter is so steeped in madness that he over the course of the game tries to make it so the war continues as long as it can with no end not wanting any peace to happen to ruin his thrill for mayhem and this is what makes him a unsettling villain. He allows for Eirika to escape at the first encounter and he does in fact allow Ephraim to escape during his castle raid, he isn't bluffing when he mentions it when they both fight and it would certainly all the more explain how Ephraim managed to escape unscathed when he should have been captured. He tricks Selena to return to Grado and kills Glen because it would to be far too quick and easy to have the game end Heh heh… Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there’ll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun… I believe it’s time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it? and finally just his downright obsession with Eirika was disturbing not as disturbing with Orson with his deceased wife, but unsettling nonetheless.

Overall this is why Valter the Dark Moonstone is one of my favorite FE villains in the series in making him stand out."

The Grado generals being foils off their respective counterpart is even highlighted from their first interaction with each other when the three new ones are brought to the fold which makes for a nicely presented foreshadowing.

Moving from Valter I'll now discuss what makes Carlyle a good villain. Carlyle ends up being a good villain because we see what lengths he'll go to to make sure he can make his dream a reality. Out of the bad Grado general trio he's the least extreme, but it's because in part he still has some portion of humanity in him as demonstrated in his relationship with Joshua on Ephraim's route or when he's with company like Riev and Valter he is shown to have even some standards as he views them as despicable, just that he'll do whatever it takes and will throw out those standards if it comes to it such as with him killing Joshua's mother Ismaire despite saying he doesn't want to hurt/kill a woman but to his credit he did try to talk her down and give her a chance to live or even his own subordinate/old mercenary companion Aias as he doesn't want to be chained by his past holding him back from becoming a king. It just displays how much he'll do whatever it takes to reach out and grab hold of his future. Caellach is how you do a character who is motivated in trying to grasp a better life for themselves given their poor background with the cards in their hand they were dealt with a whole lot better than that horrible mess Hans. He follows in line with a similarly well received character like Shinon both of them being jerkasses. So no he isn't just a power hungry character, he's a power hungry character with motivation all the while still being human making him feel real.

 

I'll follow up more with Lyon, Ephraim and Eirika (anyone else I can think of) when I get the chance, but a theme I really appreciate from Sacred Stones is that what its story does so well is how it shows you just how tragic war can be and how it affects everyone involved in it and how it changes them to becoming a worse off irredeemable person (Valter and Caellach) or a much better person (Ephraim and Eirika) or if not bringing out repressed feelings of themselves they never expected seeing themselves do or even their own friends/allies in becomingwretched souls (Lyon, Orson and Carlyle).

I don't really see how you can claim the game has a strong cast when most of the playable characters weren't THAT great... Sure, there is some good, like L'arachel, but most others are just blah or meh. Caellach, Valter and Riev all looked (and acted) like they were pulled out of Saturday morning cartoons. Riev in particular fails MISERABLY at being a foil to Duessel. He also doesn't accomplish anything of note, and only felt like he was just there. Contrary to your attempts to say otherwise, Caellach is practically Hans, so I thank you for bringing him up. Lyon has a massive case of inconsistency (why the hell is the earthquake not mentioned in Eirika's route???), has next to nothing to his character outside of flashbacks, and the only reason why he even comes off as being remotely sympathetic is because the game goes out of its way to bombard you with flashbacks about him talking about his insecurities. Orson is only with you for one chapter before flipping, so it's hard for people to care about his betrayal. It doesn't help that in the context of the story itself, we're going directly from "Orson betrayed us!" to "Renais is falling apart..." - a pretty big leap , if you ask me.

[Slumber]

One thing I really don't like about FE8's cast is the amount of Gary Stus in the game. To jump on why people are calling the cast "bland", there are about 8 or 9 characters who damn near have the answer to everything in every piece of dialog they have and have very few flaws. 

Gerik, Tethys, Saleh, Joshua, Seth, Garcia, Ephraim, and to a lesser extent, Innes. Knoll is also there as an exposition character, but he does have a fair few bits of support dialog that at least save him a bit. Duessel also fills this a bit, but he has the internal conflict of fighting against his country which is kinda-sorta interesting. 

The only time they don't have all of the answers is when any of these characters supports with another one of the "We know exactly what to say" characters. 

I don't even dislike all of these characters. I quite like Joshua and Garcia. I can't even say I dislike the rest(Besides Ephraim. Screw Ephraim) But holy shit Sacred Stones leans on the "I'm cool and worldly/aloof/mature and know everything and don't have any real character flaws." writing like crazy.

It feels like these characters just don't develop at all because apparently they've all experienced everything and have perfected their philosophies on life. Joshua settles down, but this whole concept is over and done with in 1 chapter while Joshua stays the same as a character throughout supports. 

Comparing the games that came before and after... FE7 has Marcus, Oswin, Pent and Athos? I think thats it as far as characters who have all the answers go, and Marcus really only cares about knight stuff, rather than a general knowledge of everything like Oswin, Pent and Athos tend to have. Maybe Renault, too, but his case is a bit complicated. He's kind of like an optional Knoll. I listed like, less than half of the amount of characters that are like this in FE7, yet FE7 has the larger cast by about 10 characters. 

FE9 has... I'm hesitant to say Oscar. He's more like moral support and the big reliable brother in the army than one that knows everything and has no flaws(Though he really doesn't have many at all). Bastion kinda counts as kind of the typical wise-sage character. I can't say Volke, since Volke is an admitted sociopath and he makes it a point to not tell anyone anything... Titania kind of fits the mold as the mother figure of the group. And once again, I can count these types of characters on one hand while PoR has something like 20 more characters than SS has. 

I can't say SS has a particularly bad cast, since this doesn't inherently mean all of these characters are bad per se, but I can't say it has a very good one, either. Even with all of these characters that more or less exist purely to be cool and develop other characters, it's still better than the games that didn't give their casts any lines, and the games that made half of their casts one-note gimmicks. But it's worse than just about every FE that didn't do these things. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Slumber

[SavageVolug]

Hmmm. Tough question. Every game has some characters that I like even FE games that I do not care for as much. If I were to go by which game has the fewest characters I dislike probably either the Tellius series, Jugdrael games or SoV has the best character roster. As those games have characters that for the most part I like nearly every single character, whereas Sacred Stones is hit or miss with it's characters, FE7 I like most of the characters well enough but there are some I either don't care for or flat-out dislike, Awakening has a lot of one-note characters but there are still some I like e.g. (Stahl, Cherche.) Fates also has some very gimmicky characters and again has some characters that I either like, am lukewarm about or dislike. I like most of the Nohr cast but when it comes to the Hoshido cast there's probably only five characters that I like (such as Rinkah and Scarlet for instance)