"there are better options" and why it doesn't fit in most discussions

[Junkhead]

Let's end this folks.

Raw utility/effeciency discussions aside, when a person asks about a certain character and they just so happen to not be the very best of the best, it's kind of pointless to throw this around.

Why? I don't know, I just feel like I'm hearing it a lot more than it should matter. This game is extremely balanced, and literally every character has been balanced since Skill Inheritance became a thing (yes fuck you Ayra). AND WITH THAT SAID, I don't feel the answer to many people asking about building a character and getting a lazy (and very obvious) answer like "but X is so much better so that means you shouldn't be using them". Yes, that's bound to happen- but did you just happen to strictly ask as to who's best for the job, or simply about that one very character you happen to like? yeah, so there.

 

Last-liner. um. yeah. What else do I fill in with... oh. Yeah.

Were it to come down to that linear thinking, we'd all probably be using, like, Reinhardt, Lyn and probably Ayra & [F2P Dancer or whatever] because all the other characters are obselete.

[Prince Endriu]

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

Let's end this folks.

Raw utility/effeciency discussions aside, when a person asks about a certain character and they just so happen to not be the very best of the best, it's kind of pointless to throw this around.

Why? I don't know, I just feel like I'm hearing it a lot more than it should matter. This game is extremely balanced, and literally every character has been balanced since Skill Inheritance became a thing (yes fuck you Ayra). AND WITH THAT SAID, I don't feel the answer to many people asking about building a character and getting a lazy (and very obvious) answer like "but X is so much better so that means you shouldn't be using them". Yes, that's bound to happen- but did you just happen to strictly ask as to who's best for the job, or simply about that one very character you happen to like? yeah, so there.

 

Last-liner. um. yeah. What else do I fill in with... oh. Yeah.

Were it to come down to that linear thinking, we'd all probably be using, like, Reinhardt, Lyn and probably Ayra & [F2P Dancer or whatever] because all the other characters are obselete.

I think many a character can be quite surprising. When it comes to regular arena battles its obvious that you want to pick the strongest, most versatile units with probaby most merges. You dont know what you are getting into so you wanna have the most chances to win. Thats probably what tier lists are about.

Arena assault is a different matter, you can only use a unit once. Besides the first match you can also check the map and can make use of niche units. It was thanks to aa that I began to appreciate the not the best units or oeven low tier units and started to build them. Recently I found use for Leo and Boey - two units that I didnt really appreciate. I wouldnt really pull for these units but I am glad that I have them. Guess specialization is key here. Its hard to recommend Caeda for example if there is Elincia. I would probably never spend 20k feathers to promote her but she broke my pity twice and now she fills her role as a hector sayer every once in a while.

Its actually quite fun to invest into weaker units and make them to be more useful or even badass.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've never seen people use this rhetoric to say "Why? Just use _____ instead". In my experiences it always comes out as, "you can go for this build, just understand that your guy only brings some extra HP and Def to the table compared to _____ running the same set". I don't advocate pointing fingers...but boy am I tired of threads about the "Fire Emblem fandom" where the OP can't point to an example on THIS site.

Anyway, comparing options can be a healthy way to gauge a unit's utility in the context of your full roster. For instance, I've got this Gunter that I promoted. He could run a decent brave set, but there's no planet in which he'd do it better than Frederick. I just haven't yet pulled Frederick with an optimal nature. So the Gunter I picked to promote was +Def/-Res. And I was thinking Slaying axe + Def boost was the way to go for 40 Def bonfires. Frederick could run that set better as well thanks to three more points in Defense, but it's not as crucial a difference as the three points in attack when wielding a brave axe. So I managed to diversify both units into optimized, yet separate roles. One player phase oriented, the other enemy phase oriented.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Glennstavos

[Junkhead]

I just don't see much of a point in comparing unless it's the case you mention, in which you may probably end up finding a different role. I don't see where most people go with comparing a character to the whole roster (or colour/weapon, to be mpre specific) when you're really mostly comitted to using a character regardless.

For example, the other day I suggested a Fury Brave+ set would most benefit my +Atk/-Res Faye, considering she'd still be able to tank somewhat decently with Fury + Distant Def 3 and still basically fulfill the same enemy phase role with QR while having a lot more control on your own phase. And then someone brought up the fact that Klein/Takumi/Jeorge do it better when it wasn't really the question or answer to it.

[Florete]

Honestly, I agree with the sentiment, but more for other games than this one. I don't disagree with it for this game, but I've strangely seen it more for other FE games than this one despite it making more sense for this game due to the long-running and mildly competitive nature (arena).

[SoulWeaver]

I'd say this didn't need to be said, but I've heard that way too much involving my Defense Team's Roy and Sakura elsewhere, so it should be said every now and then. That said, I haven't seen that much of that on here, so I don't think it's as pressing.

[Arcanite]

47 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

the other day I suggested a Fury Brave+ set would most benefit my +Atk/-Res Faye, considering she'd still be able to tank somewhat decently with Fury + Distant Def 3 and still basically fulfill the same enemy phase role with QR while having a lot more control on your own phase. And then someone brought up the fact that Klein/Takumi/Jeorge do it better when it wasn't really the question or answer to it.

They do run that set a bit better, but it really depends on what you're using the Faye for, and in your case you want her to tank. Thing is, Faye is already slow and that -Res doesn't help much. She's still going to be doubled into oblivion. Running that kind of set on her seems a bit gimmicky.... but it could actually work. Klein Takumi and Jeorge can't exactly res tank as well

BUT

Speed is also bulk. In terms of HP though, using her as a res tank is better than those other three. If you have a brave Lyn though, you're wasting your time (unless you want multiple bows).

 

Anyway with regards to the main topic of this thread, I'd say this is all solved with calcs. Nobody can really argue any type of point if you just run calculations. I mean, I can say "Oh but this Oboro is +Atk -HP and my Lukas is -Def, so Lukas might be better but not in this case" but if I don't run the calcs then I may as well have said "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah". It just may turn out that Lukas still runs counter killer set better even with -Def! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Prototype Angel]

For me, the game should be about using your favourite characters, and I’d always recommend a build that suits that unit, regardless of whether there is someone else superior or not.

But it’s not just character superiority that is brought up far to often but also IV superiority too.

I frequent the game press FEH website also, and it annoys the hell out of me when someone posts a thread stating ‘I pulled X unit and they have x/y bane/boon, how can I build them?’ and they get battered with replies of ‘don’t use that iv, it’s worthless, just use them for fodder instead’. Seriously?! Not everyone can whale for a superior copy, and it doesn’t answer the question either.

A good example I have of this is someone who I assume was new to that board as I’d never seen there username before asked what can they do with a +spd -def brave ike. Every reply was ‘that’s a useless nature, use him as steady breath fodder’. So I said ‘do you want to use him? Because -def is fixable with a +def seal and steady breath giving +4 def and +speed isn’t as bad a nature as people think’ and he said ‘yeah I really want to use him’, so I explained how I’d build him. Was that so hard for anyone to do?

Anyway, rant over haha

[Junkhead]

56 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

They do run that set a bit better, but it really depends on what you're using the Faye for, and in your case you want her to tank. Thing is, Faye is already slow and that -Res doesn't help much. She's still going to be doubled into oblivion. Running that kind of set on her seems a bit gimmicky.... but it could actually work. Klein Takumi and Jeorge can't exactly res tank as well

BUT

Speed is also bulk. In terms of HP though, using her as a res tank is better than those other three. If you have a brave Lyn though, you're wasting your time (unless you want multiple bows).

 

Anyway with regards to the main topic of this thread, I'd say this is all solved with calcs. Nobody can really argue any type of point if you just run calculations. I mean, I can say "Oh but this Oboro is +Atk -HP and my Lukas is -Def, so Lukas might be better but not in this case" but if I don't run the calcs then I may as well have said "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah". It just may turn out that Lukas still runs counter killer set better even with -Def! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not sure how to format this, but I'll run with it:

1. Whether or not she happens to be a lesser version of that certain role doesn't matter or not because it wasn't the actual question. I'm using her regardless. It wasn't question that can be answered with, "just use lyn". More like, "I'll use this character in a way I feel benefits their role for my current situation- and see, that's the thing. I don't think people are even applying this to actual-game (practical) standards as much as they do perfect hypothetical scenarios.

2. Don't get too caught up in the numbers. Sure, having amazing numbers basically makes you good as it is, but doesn't really factor what actually goes on in, you know, the actual game. Part of the reason people wank Blades and crap on Owls and always assume Hones instead actual flexibility.

 

I know numbers. They're nothing new to me. I literally do that as a hobby, sometimes (well, used to).

35 minutes ago, Prototype Angel said:

For me, the game should be about using your favourite characters, and I’d always recommend a build that suits that unit, regardless of whether there is someone else superior or not.

But it’s not just character superiority that is brought up far to often but also IV superiority too.

I frequent the game press FEH website also, and it annoys the hell out of me when someone posts a thread stating ‘I pulled X unit and they have x/y bane/boon, how can I build them?’ and they get battered with replies of ‘don’t use that iv, it’s worthless, just use them for fodder instead’. Seriously?! Not everyone can whale for a superior copy, and it doesn’t answer the question either.

A good example I have of this is someone who I assume was new to that board as I’d never seen there username before asked what can they do with a +spd -def brave ike. Every reply was ‘that’s a useless nature, use him as steady breath fodder’. So I said ‘do you want to use him? Because -def is fixable with a +def seal and steady breath giving +4 def and +speed isn’t as bad a nature as people think’ and he said ‘yeah I really want to use him’, so I explained how I’d build him. Was that so hard for anyone to do?

Anyway, rant over haha

I want to say it's kind of like you read my mind, but maybe you just worded it better. Especially that first paragraph.

I actually frequent the site as well. While "is X still usable with certain IVs" is a thing, it may be less-experienced people asking the question.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Soul~!

[Arcanite]

38 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I don't think people are even applying this to actual-game (practical) standards as much as they do perfect hypothetical scenarios.

Okay

How often are you going to tank a mage, assuming non raven

Vs

How often are you going to kill someone with 2/3/4 shots on Player Phase

Seems practical enough to me

42 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Part of the reason people wank Blades and crap on Owls and always assume Hones instead actual flexibility.

Try running owl in arena

Try it in AA

Heck try it in tempest lol

Do you even understand how much easier it is to buff someone to another dimension compared to trying to place someone in a certain spot to get buffs? 

45 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

While "is X still usable with certain IVs" is a thing, it may be less-experienced people asking the question.

Most of the time your bane and boon are at the very least salvageable. But seriously, sometimes it's just so crippling there's not much you can do

BUT

Now with refine options and the upgradable seals, any bane can be patched up easy peasy. There really isn't much to discourage one from using something when it comes to that respect. The thing is though, even if it's salvageable, one should expect that unit to underperform if they don't have an amazing nature. It also depends on the type of unit we're talking about. If you have a -Spd Nino and it's your only one you're better off waiting for something that is anything but -Spd since she's pullable at 3 or 4 star. If you have a -Spd Ryoma, then all you can do is salvage him lol Unless you have a couple hundred dollars lying around to whale for a better one heh

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, Soul~! said:

Let's end this folks.

Raw utility/effeciency discussions aside, when a person asks about a certain character and they just so happen to not be the very best of the best, it's kind of pointless to throw this around.

Why? I don't know, I just feel like I'm hearing it a lot more than it should matter. This game is extremely balanced, and literally every character has been balanced since Skill Inheritance became a thing (yes fuck you Ayra). AND WITH THAT SAID, I don't feel the answer to many people asking about building a character and getting a lazy (and very obvious) answer like "but X is so much better so that means you shouldn't be using them". Yes, that's bound to happen- but did you just happen to strictly ask as to who's best for the job, or simply about that one very character you happen to like? yeah, so there.

 

Last-liner. um. yeah. What else do I fill in with... oh. Yeah.

Were it to come down to that linear thinking, we'd all probably be using, like, Reinhardt, Lyn and probably Ayra & [F2P Dancer or whatever] because all the other characters are obselete.

If i ask for an opinion or how i should built a character, I am asking for the honest opinion. Meaning i want people to point out what is not optimal and what is more optimal on that specific character. If that bothers you, why even ask for their opinion?! Whats the point of that then. You might as well not ask at all.

And this game is not really balanced lol

[Prototype Angel]

51 minutes ago, Hilda said:

If i ask for an opinion or how i should built a character, I am asking for the honest opinion. Meaning i want people to point out what is not optimal and what is more optimal on that specific character. If that bothers you, why even ask for their opinion?! Whats the point of that then. You might as well not ask at all.

And this game is not really balanced lol

I don’t think that’s what he was getting at, I think it’s more about people using there favourite characters over X or Y because X and Y are superior. To this end, in high level arena battles, I’ve seen units I would consider inferior to my own with builds that made that unit extremely difficult to fight against despite what I would consider statistical superiority. I would always advocate using your favourites and building a team around them that is balanced.

 

[Xenomata]

To be honest, I don't see it as a problem.

Reason, Arena Assault demands that you have at least 28 competent teams of units to take on 7 battles in a row in which you cannot use the same character more than once, even if you have multiples of said character. Yeah you could just pack one Gronnraven Cecilia and pray, or you could have Cecilia, Boey, ToD!Henry, Merric, F!Robin, Spring Camilla, and Inigo all run the same Gronnraven TA3 set and be completely Lyn and Reinhardt proof. You probably don't need more than a few Brave Bow+ sets, but that doesn't stop you from giving it to literally every single bow unit available. Yeah Infantry Sword is pretty much a laughtrack of horribleness, but don't worry you'll find at least a few that work for you out of the 32 available to us, as if you have a choice because it's always the infantry reds you don't want that are the pity breakers.

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Try running owl in arena

Try it in AA

Heck try it in tempest lol

Do you even understand how much easier it is to buff someone to another dimension compared to trying to place someone in a certain spot to get buffs? 

Most of the time your bane and boon are at the very least salvageable. But seriously, sometimes it's just so crippling there's not much you can do

 

I have run owl on my +10 Boey in AA Tempest and Aerna, its a blast and underrated. You can annihilate any match up even the ones less favourable, ecxept if they run Triangle Adept. But alas my Boey got replaced, not because Litrowl is weak, but because he cant function in a Dragon-Loli infected world... However considering i only ran up against Armored units on this season i am questioning if i should swap BIke out for him and let him slaughter all the Armorers, because Armors and Panic Ploy have no effect on a +10 owl Boey that runs +6 Atk +6 Spd +18 Res and +18 Def in Spur effects! However with the new Bold Fighter 3 addition, it has gotten a bit tricky to bait out Armorers with Close Counter :/

[Stroud]

4 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Try running owl in arena

Try it in AA

Heck try it in tempest lol

Do you even understand how much easier it is to buff someone to another dimension compared to trying to place someone in a certain spot to get buffs? 

I run Owl Rhajat with Oscar and Takumi in AA and this team kicks ass (Fujin Yumi truly shines here). I admit that the Team has to be build around Owl with some thoughts, but if it's done well it is so much fun. My Rhajat counters any B!Lyn without Firesweep which Blade users struggle a bit more with.

Back to Topic.

Honestly, I had a discussion the last days and I did throw a little tantrum, because A!Tiki did not get a better spot on the gamepress Tier list.
The most people did argument with an A!Tiki build around def, there I agree that this is not her true potential. In my point of view her true potential lies in Attack builds (Those are easier to build btw) which she can do better than other dragons (OHKO as much as possible before getting hit twice). But I missed one thing on this entire discussion.

Often things are around experience in this game, we don't try all builds but we try to get information from others to decide around builds and which are worth it. So we miss certain experiences other players have. And as ist is often my own experience is valued more than that of other gamers. So the thing is to just accept other experiences more. If someone has an opinion about a build which differs from you, you can just try to accept this, but still have you own way. 

And honestly, if you have an underdog like Hinata where all people tell you that he is trash and that you should fodder your +10 5* Hinata to get fury. You get a more satisfying feeling if you show him of how he blows Dragons like Nowi +10 away. (Which he can truly pull of as long as she has no windsweep). 
Of course it is only worth the time if you have an underdog unit which you truly like. To build an underrated unit only to show what is possible is a waste of time. But if it's a unit you are truly fond of why not?

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Stroud

[Arcanite]

3 hours ago, Stroud said:

better spot on the gamepress Tier list.

Honestly

Game press tier list is garbage. Like, you're better of using gamepedia. They are much more reliable and account for more. The tier list placements for game press are stupid at best

Edit: all the manaketes are in the same tier on gamepedia, and the highest tier literally only has 4 people in it lol

Rein and Hector aren't top tier anymore, they're just one below

Meanwhile gamepress has Nowi at the top for some reason... same as young tiki. These placements don't really make sense to me LOL

Like, you know something is wrong when black Knight is in your highest tier

Edit 2: @Hilda didn't even realize your post lol

But for the record, owl tomes may have their uses, but they function best on armor teams. Also, as a person who runs blade Nino, I hardly have a problem with manaketes because I just buff my way into new dimensions and blow a hole in everything ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You have a fair point about panic ploy, though Honestly if you're having trouble fighting against panic ploy then it's a player skill issue imo

Oh yeah, and there is also the issue of TA

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/gallery/jV77I

Granted, BK has low res, but his HP is very high to compensate. I also only killed by exactly 1 point of attack lol

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Arcanite

[DehNutCase]

20 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

But for the record, owl tomes may have their uses, but they function best on armor teams. Also, as a person who runs blade Nino, I hardly have a problem with manaketes because I just buff my way into new dimensions and blow a hole in everything ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's difficult to imagine Owl tomes ever generating enough stats to make them preferable over -blades, particularly for armor mages, who are naturally more resistant to panic ploy---because they have good hp.

 

It gets even worse once you realize the best way to use armored mages on defense teams is a combination of CC Vantage---for excellent 'last one standing' sweeps---and either CC Bold Fighter, or some kind of stat A-slot Bold Fighter, for ORKOs versus basically everything. -Blade, Moonbow, Bold Fighter should annihilate literally everything in Armor!Tharja's hands. B!Lyn doesn't have the stats to avoid the ORKO from unbuffed Tharja, and Deidre and Julia are green. (Mind, it might be possible to stack enough Res to avoid the ORKO, but I doubt it, seeing how Bold Fighter means Tharja gets to fire off a Moonbow.)

 

The only reason I use Owl tomes is because I prefer using a unit's default weapon if possible. (-Atk Leo, unfortunately, does not qualify, seeing how Elise kind of owns him in the 'gravity everyone and provide magical chip' role.)

[Hilda]

@ArcanitePanic Ploy usually isnt an issue ecxept for some maps. I was just pointing out the benefit of a Litrowl.

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

@ArcanitePanic Ploy usually isnt an issue ecxept for some maps. I was just pointing out the benefit of a Litrowl.

Of course

I feel like panic ploy was IS's failed attempt at making blades/horse emblem less OP

[Hilda]

8 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Of course

I feel like panic ploy was IS's failed attempt at making blades/horse emblem less OP

well on player hands the skills are great, on AI hands... mmm not so much, ecxept if you are stuck on a shitty Arena map with 2 bridges as the only crosspath lol

[MrSmokestack]

14 hours ago, Soul~! said:

For example, the other day I suggested a Fury Brave+ set would most benefit my +Atk/-Res Faye, considering she'd still be able to tank somewhat decently with Fury + Distant Def 3 and still basically fulfill the same enemy phase role with QR while having a lot more control on your own phase. And then someone brought up the fact that Klein/Takumi/Jeorge do it better when it wasn't really the question or answer to it.

The words “Brave” and “Enemy Phase” don’t belong in the same sentence.

Running a setup to boost bulk while equipping the one weapon that kills your bulk makes no sense at all. You’re better off focusing purely on player phase or enemy phase, not both, especially for a unit with such a mediocre offensive spread.

Leave Brave Bows and LaD fodder for the Big Boys and make Faye unkillable with Guard Bow, two stacks of Distant Defense 3, Quick Riposte, and Iceberg. Boom.

11 hours ago, Hilda said:

If i ask for an opinion or how i should built a character, I am asking for the honest opinion. Meaning i want people to point out what is not optimal and what is more optimal on that specific character. If that bothers you, why even ask for their opinion?! Whats the point of that then. You might as well not ask at all.

This exactly. Comparisons, like between units or builds, are a valid argument and all discussions are, or at least should be, rooted in an issue that you can take more than one side to. Otherwise there is no point to discussing whatsoever.

Quote

And this game is not really balanced lol

If this game was balanced you could run whatever like in F/GO and be fine. Obviously not true in practice.

Edited December 26, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[XRay]

13 hours ago, Soul~! said:

Let's end this folks.

Raw utility/effeciency discussions aside, when a person asks about a certain character and they just so happen to not be the very best of the best, it's kind of pointless to throw this around.

Why? I don't know, I just feel like I'm hearing it a lot more than it should matter. This game is extremely balanced, and literally every character has been balanced since Skill Inheritance became a thing (yes fuck you Ayra). AND WITH THAT SAID, I don't feel the answer to many people asking about building a character and getting a lazy (and very obvious) answer like "but X is so much better so that means you shouldn't be using them". Yes, that's bound to happen- but did you just happen to strictly ask as to who's best for the job, or simply about that one very character you happen to like? yeah, so there.

I think I am one of those people, although I am pretty sure I always recommend a build for the unit regardless if the unit is meta or not. I will keep that in mind.

I am going to disagree with the game being balanced. The developers are still fixing the Reinhardt and BH!Lyn meta and they have recently worked on making armor units (the worst combat units in the game in my opinion) a little more viable and giving armor teams more options.

11 hours ago, Soul~! said:

For example, the other day I suggested a Fury Brave+ set would most benefit my +Atk/-Res Faye, considering she'd still be able to tank somewhat decently with Fury + Distant Def 3 and still basically fulfill the same enemy phase role with QR while having a lot more control on your own phase. And then someone brought up the fact that Klein/Takumi/Jeorge do it better when it wasn't really the question or answer to it.

I am going to add a little bit on what @Arcanite said. In addition to the her low Speed, she is also colorless and your build runs Brave Bow (Player Phase skill and no Weapon Refinement) on an Enemy Phase build. Felicia and TOD!Sakura are already a little shaky as mage tanks, and that is when they are both fully stacked with only Enemy Phase skills with Distant Def as their Sacred Seal. Felicia [+Res, Silver Dagger [Res], Moonbow, Fury, Quick Riposte, Distant Def Sacred Seal] dies to Celica [+Spd, Ragnarok, Luna, Life and Death, Quickened Pulse/Heavy Blade]; Distant Def Felicia dies to +Atk Celica; with 4/4/0/0 buffs, Delthea, Sonya, and Blade mages can kill her depending on their nature.

I think Faye is better off just focusing on being a Brave Bow archer with Death Blow-Breaker to double things that your team has difficulty handling. She can also run Life and Death-Watersweep/Windsweep-Phantom Speed to avoid counterattacks.

16 hours ago, Soul~! said:

Last-liner. um. yeah. What else do I fill in with... oh. Yeah.

Were it to come down to that linear thinking, we'd all probably be using, like, Reinhardt, Lyn and probably Ayra & [F2P Dancer or whatever] because all the other characters are obselete.

6 hours ago, Stroud said:

A!Tiki did not get a better spot on the gamepress Tier list.

3 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Game press tier list is garbage. Like, you're better of using gamepedia. They are much more reliable and account for more. The tier list placements for game press are stupid at best

I would take tier lists with a grain of salt since they are all subjective. I think a "real" tier list should be only based on something objective, such as unit usage statistics.

Since all tier lists are subjective, I think players are better off with using a personal list with public lists as a starting point or guide. For example, I personally put ranged cavalry, ranged fliers, and Dancers/Singers at the top, all melee infantry (besides lolis and buffers) at the dirt bottom, and everyone else in between. I would have put melee armor units on the bottom, but they actually have a singular niche as Arena Assault Team 1, whereas melee infantry units have no niche at all.

3 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

It's difficult to imagine Owl tomes ever generating enough stats to make them preferable over -blades, particularly for armor mages, who are naturally more resistant to panic ploy---because they have good hp.

I think Owl tomes just need to relax their positioning requirements from adjacent units to units within two spaces. If not that, then buff the stat boost from 2 per ally to 3 or 4 per ally.

[Usana]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

The words “Brave” and “Enemy Phase” don’t belong in the same sentence.

Running a setup to boost bulk while equipping the one weapon that kills your bulk makes no sense at all. You’re better off focusing purely on player phase or enemy phase, not both, especially for a unit with such a mediocre offensive spread.

Leave Brave Bows and LaD fodder for the Big Boys and make Faye unkillable with Guard Bow, two stacks of Distant Defense 3, Quick Riposte, and Iceberg. Boom.

I am pretty sure fury lets her survive more than a second Distant Defense does. Speed is bulk after all. 

But yeah the -SPD from Brave really kills her durability. Generally the only Enemy Phase thing I find useful for Braves is Vantage. It lets them finish something too tough to kill in one go without being finished themselves. And that kinda ignores the fact that both sides have a team. But yeah in straight up dueling Vantage is king.

Regarding owl tomes I really think they need the ally support system. +2 for beside, +1 for two away.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Usana

[MrSmokestack]

44 minutes ago, Usana said:

I am pretty sure fury lets her survive more than a second Distant Defense does. Speed is bulk after all.

Base 25 Spd is awful and raising it won’t save her. The one reason I can think of that you wouldn’t run -Spd is because of the -4 penalty which drops her BST; but other than that, Spd is a very good bane for her, especially since she will have QR to double on the counter anyway.

+18 Def / Res OP, and the matchup calculator agrees.

44 minutes ago, Usana said:

Generally the only Enemy Phase thing I find useful for Braves is Vantage. It lets them finish something too tough to kill in one go without being finished themselves. And that kinda ignores the fact that both sides have a team. But yeah in straight up dueling Vantage is king.

Vantage itself isn’t a very good skill unless it’s on the Bladehardt / Leo meme build. But that’s a separate matter entirely.

Just use Desperation or Weaponbreaker and there won’t even be an enemy phase. Trying to go both ways doesn’t work.

[Roflolxp54]

18 hours ago, Soul~! said:

Were it to come down to that linear thinking, we'd all probably be using, like, Reinhardt, Lyn and probably Ayra & [F2P Dancer or whatever] because all the other characters are obselete.

I'd have to disagree with Ayra as she's a 5* exclusive; not everybody has the luck to pull her or the willingness to drop money for her, especially without a Focus banner.

I can agree with Reinhardt and Lyn: Brave Lady since Reinhardt is a 4-5* pull (and does not have a high investment cost to be good) and Lyn: Brave Lady can be the player's guaranteed free chosen Brave Hero (and is already great out of the box; she only really needs an assist skill). However there are players not lucky enough to pull Reinhardt (I'm a day 1 player and I have yet to pull Kagero - a unit that has been in the game as a 4-5* pull since day 1 - even once even though I've dropped a good number of orbs in colorless hell multiple times) and not everybody picks Brave Lady Lyn for their free Chosen Legend (since Ike fans and Lucina fans are common and there is the occasional Roy fan who is willing to get Brave Roy as their guaranteed Chosen Legend).

18 hours ago, Soul~! said:

This game is extremely balanced, and literally every character has been balanced since Skill Inheritance became a thing (yes fuck you Ayra).

That last-liner of yours contradict this statement.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with using your favorite characters. However, it is naive to think that all Heroes are made equally which is why discussions on efficiency and utility often take place; if every Hero were to be perfectly balanced, then every Hero can be used in every gamemode with the same amount of investment put into them with very similar results/efficiency/utility. There is also the matter of resource availability due to the fact that access to a certain major resource (Heroes) is decided by the RNG and/or the amount of money spent (which is why many effective/specialized builds are pretty cookiecutter).

19 hours ago, Soul~! said:

AND WITH THAT SAID, I don't feel the answer to many people asking about building a character and getting a lazy (and very obvious) answer like "but X is so much better so that means you shouldn't be using them". Yes, that's bound to happen- but did you just happen to strictly ask as to who's best for the job, or simply about that one very character you happen to like? yeah, so there.

I don't see this going on often (though that can just be my not paying attention to unit build discussion threads often).