Etrurian emperor Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Just out of curiosity, would it be possible for there to be a male Apostle? So far the games themselves have only ever shown female Apostles. We got Sanaki, her grandmother and Michaiah who technically should have been the Apostle. Even the Tellius lore book only has female Apostle whenever they name one. So is Apostle a female only title or would there have been some male Apostles throughout Begnions history that were just to unimportant to get mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I always assumed that Misaha having only male children is why the Apostleship skipped a generation and went directly to Micaiah. Remember, it's not just about being heir to the throne, it's about hearing the goddess. Which I guess is a girls only thing, because magic plot inheritance is weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 23 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said: I always assumed that Misaha having only male children is why the Apostleship skipped a generation and went directly to Micaiah. Remember, it's not just about being heir to the throne, it's about hearing the goddess. Which I guess is a girls only thing, because magic plot inheritance is weird. Which is actually funny, because they get that from Lehran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyla Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) The power of apostal actually comes from the brand. It doesn't come from being Altina's descendant. Every true apostal has been a branded, Sanaki of course, not being branded isn't a true apostal. It is said that the brand always appears on the first born daughter of each generation. For some unknown reason. The first branded was a woman so maybe that's why it's inherited to only females. This is just a speculation though. Edited January 5, 2018 by Skylorella Con Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazekick360 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 My whole issue is what the validation process for all this is. I mean anyone can say that they are or are not hearing voices. I mean it’s how Sanaki got away with it. Just curious to think how many false apostles there could have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 It has confused me a bit. Misaha was assassinated by the Senate was Sanaki and Micaiah's grandmother. So what happened to her child that had Sanaki and Micaiah? 18 minutes ago, blazekick360 said: My whole issue is what the validation process for all this is. I mean anyone can say that they are or are not hearing voices. I mean it’s how Sanaki got away with it. Just curious to think how many false apostles there could have been. I think it went with the firstborn would be the branded. But if they had to be female, then the nextborn would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I wonder if the fact that they can’t have a male apostle is the reason the senate was created. After all, they would need someone to rule Begnion if there are no apostles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troykv Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) I had always that question in mind, how the games talks about the apostle makes it look like is a female-only thing... If that is indeed the case, that would be used to explain that Sanaki's Parent wasn't the apostle... I need to check that juicy japanese script to have answers... some day. Edited January 5, 2018 by Troykv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) The rules set up for the Branded are: Laguz + Beorc = Branded; Branded + Beorc, or Beorc descendent of a Branded + Branded/Beorc = a random chance of having a Branded. No where here is one's biological sex involved, nor the question of firstborn or not. The special circumstances of the Apostle's Brand- are they really necessary? They contradict the norms, but aren't sufficiently explained as to why they do or how they do. It sounds like there has been nothing but Empresses, each of which has duly been an Apostle. Misaha, the 36th Empress who died in 625, allows us to calculate an average of 17.361 years per reign, which sounds reasonable. Except 17 years sounds a little too short for Branded leaders since Branded are supposed to age slower. But Sanaki is stated to be the youngest empress ever. If most inherited the throne as adults, it sounds a bit more reasonable. 2 hours ago, blazekick360 said: My whole issue is what the validation process for all this is. I mean anyone can say that they are or are not hearing voices. I mean it’s how Sanaki got away with it. Just curious to think how many false apostles there could have been. Well Micaiah, the true Apostle, makes a number of onscreen predictions, all of which come true and which often clearly benefit the heroes. If Sanaki never said she predicts XYZ, or did and her prediction was wrong- that could certainly be room for questioning whether she heard Ashera's voice (or Yune's- it is never said if Ashera ever actually spoke to the Apostles or whether it was all Yune, or Ashera for the Apostles save for Micaiah). Not to mention Micaiah's heart reading and Sacrifice ability must come from being the Apostle, and therefore we may guess that prior Apostles, even if we hear nothing of these feats in game, might have displayed the same powers. Those powers, the slowed aging, and perhaps even the Brand, wouldn't have been viewed suspiciously and either ignored or celebrated by the Senate or the masses since said traits belong to the Apostle- who cannot be anything but good, and certainly pure of disgusting Branded blood (and Dheginsea and co. made sure to hide the truth). But yes, hearing voices and claiming your authority from some removed deity is bound to led to false prophets and messiahs as it does in reality. Given we know the Senate has had a tumultuous relationship with the Apostle- sometimes with, others against, it wouldn't be surprising if a few Apostles were their puppets. Plus, if the Apostle line has bore males (if they haven't- well we found a race more manless than the Gerudo), I could imagine, if things were to be realistic, a few of these Imperial Princes would take issue to being so close to absolute power and yet denied it on the bases of goddess hearing and sex. Hence they would either work closely with their sisters/aunts/nieces/cousins, or make said relatives work for them and become Emperor of Begnion in all but name. Yet IS doesn't seem like the kind of people to ever consider such possibilities, they aren't that realistically historical or gritty. They probably want us to seriously believe all 36 Empresses of Begnion prior to Sanaki were Branded True Apostles and very possibly firstborns. As for the delayed heir issue. I'm being a little too realistic here, but if Misaha had a male child, why didn't Sanaki get born much sooner? Males don't get pregnant, they impregnate and can fertilize multiple women at once. Royalty should be expected to be the exception to monogamy, particularly when there is a serious leadership crisis and a goddess hearing girl, or just any girl given the crisis, needs to pop out of a womb ASAP! If concubines aren't allowable, understandable according to some royal traditions, then quick divorce should've solved the problem, if not as fast as the harem approach, sooner than Sanaki. Unless the upper nobility of Begnion, the only people whom an Imperial Prince or Princess would be worthy of marrying besides maybe a Daein or Crimean of royalty or utmost nobility, was highly inbred (and the royal family also inbred) and thus wracked throughout it all by incest induced infertility. Edit: Then again, Europe could operate without quick divorce or concubines- how else to explain Maria Theresa of the Austrian Hapsburgs for instance? Sanaki is 13 in RD, which happens 3 years after PoR, which happens in 645. So she was born in 635, which would mean she was conceived in roughly 634-635. The Serenes Massacre is 625. We don't know how old Micaiah was when she was "killed", but she has no memories of it and never in PoR or RD is the death of Misaha's granddaughter brought up save by Lekain. From this I would guess Micaiah was a newborn or close to it. The Senate had to be informed of her birth immediately as a matter of state, but if early childhood is perilous in Tellius as it was until modern times in the real world, the public could understandably be denied knowledge of Micaiah's birth until she survived the dangerous first few months or even year to avoid causing their newfound joy to suddenly be crushed if she died a few days later. Thus on this hypothesis, Micaiah would have been born in 624 or 625. So that means about 10 years passed between Micaiah's birth and Sanaki's birth. If Misaha bore a female child- well the question becomes why she didn't have a Brand. Unless the firstborn daughter already died and she was the second. But then this makes the simple perfect narrative of 100% firstborn Branded True Apostles continuing their kind for generations marked with holes. This said, the delay on having Sanaki is more plausible with a daughter, since they get pregnant and they can't fit more than one seed in there at a time (barring rare uncontrollable exceptions). If we blend some miscarriages with infertility issues, recovery periods from said miscarriages, and the time it takes to get pregnant, a somewhat viable answer for the delay on Sanaki can be made for a daughter of Misaha (a run of sons sounds wrong since otherwise we'd be meeting Sanaki's big brothers). 23 minutes ago, Water Mage said: I wonder if the fact that they can’t have a male apostle is the reason the senate was created. After all, they would need someone to rule Begnion if there are no apostles. All that is said is that the Senate was formed during the time of Toremeni, the 3rd Apostle, as a religious organization led by the Apostle. And which later helped the Apostle defeat the Laguz rulers in the Kingdom of Begnion and thus form the Theocracy/Empire. It's possible one of the Senate's assigned duties was that. We don't know how many regencies Begnion has had, that Sanaki at the age of ~5 was the youngest Empress ever, on the one hand blocks the most extreme of regencies, while still making room for ones 6 and up (up probably ending by ~18). Edited January 5, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 That's an interesting question. I'm assuming they can only be female. My question is whether the lady who raised Micaiah knew she was the Apostle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Druid Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Tbh, the whole apostle thing reminds me of the Kumari tradition from Nepal. I'm going to assume it's a ladies' only type of gig. And it's a fantasy land, so maybe the brand of the apostle will bless them with a daughter for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 (edited) Lehran's and Altina's child wasn't Branded. It wasn't until several generations later that "certain descendants began to manifest physical marks which indicated their ancestors' sins," according to Nasir in the "Ancient History" conversation (FE10, part IV, endgame part 4). Edited January 6, 2018 by Paper Jam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 13 hours ago, Paper Jam said: Lehran's and Altina's child wasn't Branded. It wasn't until several generations later that "certain descendants began to manifest physical marks which indicated their ancestors' sins," according to Nasir in the "Ancient History" conversation (FE10, part IV, endgame part 4). That is weird. How in the world to explain this? Perhaps Branded powers already existed without the Brand (perhaps in an incomplete form)? It just took a little more time to Laguz and Beorc to "evolve" to the point where Brands formed? "Evolve" being a word you see Yune toss around a few times in the Tower. "Several generations" was probably only two, or about 20-40 years. Since Yoram, the 1st Apostle and person to claim to hear Ashera's voice, was Altina's granddaughter. That isn't too long a gulf of interbreeding with Branded, but that it exists at all is strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 On 05/01/2018 at 4:53 PM, omegaxis1 said: It has confused me a bit. Misaha was assassinated by the Senate was Sanaki and Micaiah's grandmother. So what happened to her child that had Sanaki and Micaiah? Presumably they died while Misaha was still Empress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said: Presumably they died while Misaha was still Empress. That's impossible. Sanaki was born ten years after Misaha died, so Sanaki's parents must have outlived Misaha by at least ten years. Edited January 6, 2018 by Paper Jam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 28 minutes ago, Paper Jam said: That's impossible. Sanaki was born ten years after Misaha died, so Sanaki's parents must have outlived Misaha by at least ten years. In that case, maybe Misaha didn't have any daughters, and therefore they skipped a generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 6 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said: In that case, maybe Misaha didn't have any daughters, and therefore they skipped a generation. Seems most likely, yes. For Micaiah to have spent most of her life in Daein, it seems most reasonable to assume that Misaha's son and his wife took her there after Misaha's assassination, rightfully worried that the assassins would come for them next (and because nobody would suspect that such pro-laguz people as Misaha's son and daughter-in-law would take refuge in such an anti-laguz place as Daein). Sometime within the ten years that followed, they must have been separated from Micaiah, returned to Begnion, and had Sanaki. But the above scenario could work just as well if Misaha's child was a girl; that girl never would have been in a position to claim the throne of Begnion, and even if she was an apostle, nobody would have known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Paper Jam said: For Micaiah to have spent most of her life in Daein, it seems most reasonable to assume that Misaha's son and his wife took her there after Misaha's assassination, rightfully worried that the assassins would come for them next (and because nobody would suspect that such pro-laguz people as Misaha's son and daughter-in-law would take refuge in such an anti-laguz place as Daein). From 4-3: Lekain: “Poor false apostle… No one ever told you about your older sister, did they? She was the true apostle.” Sanaki: “I…had a sister?” Lekain: “She died before you were born, assassinated along with Apostle Misaha by the heron clan. So the senate installed you, the second daughter, as the apostle instead.” I don't think Lekain would lie about murdering someone (even though he is obviously lying about the murderer here- even though he knows Sanaki won't believe him on that). Removing her from the equation would throw the monarchy into further chaos, strengthening the hand of the Senate even more. How did the Senate "kill" her? I'm guessing they kidnapped her, now someone as heartless as Lekain I'd expect to just stab or suffocate the infant, but that obviously didn't happen. So I'm guessing they abandoned her in the open, leaving her exposed to the elements thinking that a feeble baby would easily die that way. Not expecting an old woman would stumble on the infant and take her in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) If the Senate kidnapped her, then her parents would have stopped at nothing to get her back. Either way, it was more likely her parents who took her to Daein. Lekain had no idea that she was even IN Daein. Edited January 7, 2018 by Paper Jam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalken Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Reading this thread really makes it sink in that the "Micaiah is the REAL APOSTLE" twist is poorly planned out. It just raises more questions and requires you to accept that Micaiah is old enough to look after a child while being Sanaki's elder sister, yet is also young enough that she wouldn't remember her heritage. Even from the standpoint of having to address Micaiah's powers, it'd flow better if she was descended from a bastard or forgotten lineage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) On 1/5/2018 at 3:58 PM, Soul~! said: Which is actually funny, because they get that from Lehran. It's not gender based, it's based on how pretty the heir is! You have to be at least equally as effeminate as Lehran to hear the goddess. Sanaki couldn't inheret the powers because she was more cute than pretty. Edited January 8, 2018 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 9 hours ago, Jotari said: It's not gender based, it's based on how pretty the heir is! You have to be at least equally as effeminate as Lehran to hear the goddess. Sanaki couldn't inheret the powers because she was more cute than pretty. I disagree. Sanaki is beautiful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Soul~! said: I disagree. Sanaki is beautiful... Not more than her sister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Icelerate said: Not more than her sister. I want to disagree but I may be biasedon the manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelerate Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 It was explicitly stated that males can't be apostles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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