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So I've recently been thinking about some of the plot holes that can be found in Radiant Dawn and... I'll be honest, I'm not the best at finding these as I tend to take things at face value.

The main one I've encountered is when it comes to the Branded and their ages as they go along with the timeline because it can be... odd.

So as I fail at this, I was wondering what plot holes you know of and how you would go about fixing it?

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In the scene where Lekain forces Pelleas to involve Daein in the war, Lekain states, "As you are no doubt aware, the false apostle has raised an army of sub-humans to reclaim her throne." However, Daein entered the war before Sanaki reappeared and was labeled as a fake by the senate to save face. I'm willing to bet it was just a simple oversight of dialogue and could be fixed by removing all mention of the false apostle.

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From my understanding:

  • What the hell is a Blood Contract? How did it exist? Define exactly how the contract's curse takes effect. Does the people have to simply be in the nation or do they have to be born there?
  • What happened to Micaiah and Sanaki's parents exactly? It was said their grandmother was the one that the Senate assassinated. 
  • Why do only the laguz lose their abilities from mating with a beorc? What is the purpose of it? And why are Branded only getting the Brand generations later, but they are only in beorc form, rather than inherit any real traits from the laguz? At best, it seems like only the extended lifespan was inherited, but that's just meh, really. And why does the Branded skip every few generations?
  • Exactly what other land did Ike go to when Tellius is the ONLY continent that remains afloat, since Ashunera literally drowned the rest of the planet?
  • Why did the Black Knight's armor lose its blessing? When and how did the blessing ever come to be, since all we've seen is Altina wielding the two blades that were blessed by Ashera. Did Ashera bless the other armor and weapons? 
  • What was this secret power that Reyson about to unleash in Path of Radiance? 
  • How did Oliver survive Path of Radiance? 
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34 minutes ago, Chconroy said:

In the scene where Lekain forces Pelleas to involve Daein in the war, Lekain states, "As you are no doubt aware, the false apostle has raised an army of sub-humans to reclaim her throne." However, Daein entered the war before Sanaki reappeared and was labeled as a fake by the senate to save face. I'm willing to bet it was just a simple oversight of dialogue and could be fixed by removing all mention of the false apostle.

Yeah that is a mistake on NoA's part, in the Japanese that line is different. Here is an accurate translation of it:

Lekain:
“Oh, yes. That. We have a favor to ask of you, Your Majesty. As you are no doubt aware, an army of sub-humans are threatening the peace of our fair lands. We require the use of the Daein army to wipe out this upstart Laguz Alliance. Would you be so kind?”

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:
  • Why did the Black Knight's armor lose its blessing? When and how did the blessing ever come to be, since all we've seen is Altina wielding the two blades that were blessed by Ashera. Did Ashera bless the other armor and weapons? 
  •  

There are two possibilities. The first is that the armor came from Yune's forces during the fight against Ashera's Three Heroes. In the Japanese but not the English in the Tower she says she did perform such blessings. Maybe some of it was preserved?

The second is that Sephiran the greatest practitioner of magic in Tellius and servant of the goddesses made the blessings. Note that dragon breath can penetrate the armor if you lose the BK duel in PoR. Ashnard gets blessed armor too and dragon breath and Laguz Royal strikes break through it. Since in this case the blessings only come from a servant of deity instead of a deity itself, the blessing is weaker and hence vulnerable to penetration from the absolute strongest of unblessed attacks, which few yet some could muster.

The BK's armor presumably lost the blessings when Castle Nados came crumbling down on him. A giant chunk of castle falling on you should be comparable to a lion's fang or dragon breath (his armor bears clear gashes from the collapse). In the Sephiran case why didn't he renew the blessings after PoR? The BK is one of the strongest warriors in Tellius, what difference does it really make if he has blessed armor or not?

25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

What was this secret power that Reyson about to unleash in Path of Radiance? 

He calls it the "dirge of ruin" all in lowercase letters. But presumably it's a Galdrar made for destructive purposes. We have a Galdrars for suppressing Lehran's Medallion's chaotic energies, and its opposite which is the Galdrar of Release for awakening it. RD does have a pairing of Bliss (Biorhythm boost for ally) and Sorrow (Biorhythm drop for enemy) Galdrars.  If we have a Galdrar of Rebirth, then it might as well have an opposite- a "Galdrar of Death and Destruction". It'd be forbidden and considered to warp a Heron's nature since such devastation would be inherently chaotic and Herons are very fragile to chaos and heavily aligned towards order.

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Why was Naesala defying Begnion in PoR but in RD so submissive to them? Why didn't the senators order Naesala to stop raiding their own ships? He even raids Lekain's IIRC. 

Either one, they hadn't thought of the Blood Pact at the time of PoR.

Or two, since he was raiding Lekain on Oliver's behest, he wasn't really defying Begnion. The Senators seem to like bickering with each other over being the most ostentatious, and if Naesala was doing jobs for other Senators and had raided Oliver's ships in the past, then really he is neutral.  Every corrupt Senator loathes it when he turns against them, but wouldn't want to activate the BP since Naesala could also work for them. In RD, the Senators are acting as one and Naesala never probably heard Sanaki's opinion on the war due to the coup, nor did it matter since she was couped and thus could not leverage her opinion against the Senate. Since he didn't learn of the loophole from Sephiran until after betraying the LA, he had no choice but to obey.

 

To add my own little unexplained mystery- how in the eight kingdoms did Rafiel go from the island of Asmin to the border of Hatari? What magical force moved him that night that led to this unexplained supernatural phenomena? Was he teleported? Or did he, with broken wings, the glassy body of a Heron, those heavy clothes, and over what would take weeks if not months to travel, swim from Asmin to the mainland and then walk to the Desert of Death/Hatari border, all while in a trance, not eating or drinking probably, exposed to the elements, and not noticed by anyone along the long way?

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Pretty much everyting surrounding the branded becomes a plot hole in retrospect. Somoene above mentioned the parents losing their powers, but even the very brand itself is left completely unexplained. At first it's declared punishment from the goddess, which is fair enough. But the end of the game makes it very clear that neither of the gods know hybrids are even possible.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

From my understanding:

  • What was this secret power that Reyson about to unleash in Path of Radiance? 

I believe that dias makes a reappearance in Lehran's memories in the tower, in the Japanese script. It's implied he killed a bunch of humans using it. Not sure if it's really explained any more but, does it really need to be? It's just a weapon the Herons have, but choose not to use.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

To add my own little unexplained mystery- how in the eight kingdoms did Rafiel go from the island of Asmin to the border of Hatari? What magical force moved him that night that led to this unexplained supernatural phenomena? Was he teleported? Or did he, with broken wings, the glassy body of a Heron, those heavy clothes, and over what would take weeks if not months to travel, swim from Asmin to the mainland and then walk to the Desert of Death/Hatari border, all while in a trance, not eating or drinking probably, exposed to the elements, and not noticed by anyone along the long way?

Must have been snorting some of the Black Knights warp dust.

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3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I thought of another plot hole. On average, the Empress of Begnion rules for a couple of decades IIRC. This age should be a lot longer if they are branded unless they all get unlucky and die of an illness or get assassinated. 

Not necessarily. Could be a case that most of them inherit it pretty late in life due to their parent's longevity. So like, if an empress lives to be 100 on average, but they only get the throne when their 80, then they still live a very long time but only actually rein for 20 years each. That's how it looks like modern monarchies are going to go with our increased longevity.

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Just now, Jotari said:

Not necessarily. Could be a case that most of them inherit it pretty late in life due to their parent's longevity. So like, if an empress lives to be 100 on average, but they only get the throne when their 80, then they still live a very long time but only actually rein for 20 years each. That's how it looks like modern monarchies are going to go with our increased longevity.

You're right. Never mind I goofed. 

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5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You're right. Never mind I goofed. 

Well, for what it's worth, I doubt that's what IS was thinking of when they invented the plot. It would be a bit of a funny unorthodox. Imagine being born and you're great grand mother is the empress. You've got to wait until you're a grand parent yourself until you get the position of power you've been spending your life being groomed for!

Edited by Jotari
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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well, for what it's worth, I doubt that's what IS was thinking of when they invented the plot. It would be a bit of a funny unorthadox. Imagine being born and you're great grand mother is the empress. You've got to wait until you're a grand parent yourself until you get the position of power you've been spending your life being groomed for!

Does that mean there can be multiple Apostles at the same time because if they live for very long yet rule for not so long, then there must be one per generation on average.  

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13 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Does that mean there can be multiple Apostles at the same time because if they live for very long yet rule for not so long, then there must be one per generation on average.  

Your guess is as good as mine.

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25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Your guess is as good as mine.

I was looking at the chapter 3-11 script and it says Altina was the first Apostle. But the Apostle powers are given to descendants of Lehran and Altina so how can Altina be the first Apostle? 

Spoiler

Sanaki: Indeed. This sword was used by Empress Altina, the first apostle of
    Begnion, back in the early days of the empire. It was one of the two
    swords the empress used to fight the dark god. I can think of no better
    person to give it to.

Either this is a plot hole or a misconception that the history books in Tellius have.

Edited by Icelerate
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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I was looking at the chapter 3-11 script and it says Altina was the first Apostle. But the Apostle powers are given to descendants of Lehran and Altina so how can Altina be the first Apostle? 

  Hide contents


Sanaki: Indeed. This sword was used by Empress Altina, the first apostle of
    Begnion, back in the early days of the empire. It was one of the two
    swords the empress used to fight the dark god. I can think of no better
    person to give it to.

Either this is a plot hole or a misconception that the history books in Tellius have.

Probably a misconception. Wouldn't be surprising if a medieval society deified, for lack of a better word, a famous figure in their history.

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3 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Either this is a plot hole or a misconception that the history books in Tellius have.

I think that is a mistake. The official timeline says Begnion in the time of the Three Heroes was founded as a Kingdom, not an Empire. The Empire of Begnion came much later. Any reference to Altina as Empress is therefore inaccurate, she would be Queen of Begnion, unless there is some unstated retrofitting of the title of Empress or Apostle (a title until Sanaki irrevocably tied to Empress) on her generations later. Furthermore, the timeline calls Meshua the 1st Apostle. The timeline was written dryly on its own without being tossed into a game with five oceans of additional text, and therefore should be free of errors.

The relevant part of the timeline:

-155: The Great Flood

-131: Formation of Begnion
Altina, one of the Three Heroes who defeated the Dark God, became the first Queen of Begnion.

-95: Birth of the Apostle
Altina’s granddaughter Yoram predicted the arrival of a great famine, and her prediction was confirmed.

Yoram was known and worshipped as the Apostle- the one who could converse with the Goddess.

0: Begnion Empire established
In the name of the Goddess’s chosen, the Apostle, the senate declared that all the regions outside of Goldoa were to be ruled by Begnion.

The Begnion theocracy and empire was established, with the Apostle as its Empress. The first Empress was Altina’s descendant, Apostle Meshua.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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One thing that could be a plothole is the high rank both Sephiran and Zelgius managed to achieve in Begnion. From what we know of Begnion their rise should not have been possible. 

We know that Begnion is unbelievably snobby so Sephiran becoming a senator after showing up out of nowhere shouldn't be possible. He's not a noble and its out of character for the other senators to ignore this. Sephiran pretends to be descendant of a famed line of mages but so what? Senators look down even on royalty of other nations so why should this impress them? So to explain Sephiran's membership of the senate we have to believe that men like Lekain and Oliver somehow accepted that a plebeian that showed up out of nowhere totally had the nessicary peerage to become a Senator. 

Zelgius has even less reason to be accepted. He's just a soldier that randomly showed up at Sephiran's side and yet he became a count. Its unlikely that he was granted nobility because of his skills as a soldier because both Shinon and Ulki already explained that Begnion doesn't work like that. A talented men who isn't a noble would never be promoted past being a middling officer. 

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5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

One thing that could be a plothole is the high rank both Sephiran and Zelgius managed to achieve in Begnion. From what we know of Begnion their rise should not have been possible. 

We know that Begnion is unbelievably snobby so Sephiran becoming a senator after showing up out of nowhere shouldn't be possible. He's not a noble and its out of character for the other senators to ignore this. Sephiran pretends to be descendant of a famed line of mages but so what? Senators look down even on royalty of other nations so why should this impress them? So to explain Sephiran's membership of the senate we have to believe that men like Lekain and Oliver somehow accepted that a plebeian that showed up out of nowhere totally had the nessicary peerage to become a Senator. 

Zelgius has even less reason to be accepted. He's just a soldier that randomly showed up at Sephiran's side and yet he became a count. Its unlikely that he was granted nobility because of his skills as a soldier because both Shinon and Ulki already explained that Begnion doesn't work like that. A talented men who isn't a noble would never be promoted past being a middling officer. 

Sephiran's position is actually explained, I believe it's just before you fight Lekain. The basic explanation is that the public weren't really all that fond of the Senators after they were ruling without an Empress for a decade or two. So they crowned Sanaki, but any public appearance with Sanaki she was screaming her lungs out. Sephiran showed up and was really good with Sanaki so they made him prime minister and basically paraded him around as a figurehead. In otherwords, he got the job because he was pretty and photogenic.

Zelguis I have no concrete answer for. Maybe it was purely cronisism from Sephiran's position. Or maybe he had some legitmate connections to Begnion that he avoided using until it was convenient because he didn't want his status to get out. 

Edited by Jotari
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16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sephiran's position is actually explained, I believe it's just before you fight Lekain. The basic explanation is that the public weren't really all that fond of the Senators after they were ruling without an Empress for a decade or two. So they crowned Sanaki, but any public appearance with Sanaki she was screaming her lungs out. Sephiran showed up and was really good with Sanaki so they made him prime minister and basically paraded him around as a figurehead. In otherwords, he got the job because he was pretty and photogenic.

Zelguis I have no concrete answer for. Maybe it was purely cronisism from Sephiran's position. Or maybe he had some legitmate connections to Begnion that he avoided using until it was convenient because he didn't want his status to get out. 

But that explanation misses a key step. Lekain describes Sephiran as ''Our youngest senator' meaning that he already was a senator at that point despite being a nobody without noble blood. 

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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But that explanation misses a key step. Lekain describes Sephiran as ''Our youngest senator' meaning that he already was a senator at that point despite being a nobody without noble blood. 

Oh yeah. I suppose he would have had to have been a senator in the first place to even get close to Sanaki. Uh...maybe he killed and started impersonating a real guy called Sephiran? I mean, if they say he's the youngest senator ever then that means he must have some kind of public history. Does it ever say he mysteriously appeared out of nowhere (I do think Sanaki might have said something to that affect at one point)? Or (a much weaker argument), maybe the public "harassment" was so bad that a lot of senators just quit.

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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah. I suppose he would have had to have been a senator in the first place to even get close to Sanaki. Uh...maybe he killed and started impersonating a real guy called Sephiran? I mean, if they say he's the youngest senator ever then that means he must have some kind of public history. Does it ever say he mysteriously appeared out of nowhere (I do think Sanaki might have said something to that affect at one point)? Or (a much weaker argument), maybe the public "harassment" was so bad that a lot of senators just quit.

It never says he simply appeared but he spend the last couple of centuries hiding in Goldoa and only appeared again at the time of Apostle Misha. Once he came in Begnion again he wasn't a noble or much else. The villagers just called him a ''sage'' in that flashback.

It could be Misha who gave him the job before she got assassinated. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It never says he simply appeared but he spend the last couple of centuries hiding in Goldoa and only appeared again at the time of Apostle Misha. Once he came in Begnion again he wasn't a noble or much else. The villagers just called him a ''sage'' in that flashback.

It could be Misha who gave him the job before she got assassinated. 

I don't think it would be Misaha who gave him peerage. Her assassination I would think came not too long after they met, what Sephiran planned to do after that was return to Goldoa to relay the good hope Misaha would bring to their dreams of a world of peace and tolerance. If Sephiran met Misaha in Sienne, and the flashback shows him able to get to the Serenes Forest on the first click night of the Massacre (I believe it raged for three days), then that would suggest a westward trajectory- aka in the direction of Goldoa.

 

Sephiran is incredibly cunning and good at pretending to be something else, that we know. That he could somehow fabricate a lineage or blend into an existing one is a bit steep, as you'd think the Senators would obsess over genealogical records.

We don't actually know when this happened, obviously he had to get it done before his elevation to Prime Minister (yet his class is called Chancellor) in 640. The Massacre and Assassination are in 625, and Sephiran is probably too busy finding Ashnard and giving him the Medallion and Lilia and recruiting Zelgius in 625-626. After this, he has the 14 years to steal/fabricate an identity. Less in practice I'd say since you'd want a few firm years of him in place for the rest of the Senate to notice him enough to hand him the Prime Ministry. Still, if we assume 10 years, it'd be a little fast, but workable that he could somehow fit in.

Another reason I'm inclined to say Sephiran became a Senator after the Massacre, is because working within the country with the most powerful military on Tellius and a Senate known to be corrupt would be a great way to bring forth the necessary chaos for Ashera's judgement. I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually pushing for the position of Prime Minister in seemingly innocent ways (displaying a zeal for reform, compassion for the people, a willingness to take on the duties hedonist Senators don't want), since that is the highest and most powerful office in the land that he could lay claim to.

Also, we don't know when Sephiran left Goldoa, but given Kurthnaga remembers him singing to him as a baby, and Kurthnaga is something over 100, Sephiran might have left decades ago. Though we don't know if he just stopped showing up in places in Goldoa where Kurthnaga would see him.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Well I have a few plotholes:

- How come Micaiah/Zelgius never sensed each other were a branded? Bear in mind Ranulf can sense BK is a branded through the armor, so that isn't an excuse. And how come no laguz ever sense Micaiah is a branded at all?

- How come Daein now has a desert? I thought it was a snowy area?

And this isn't exactly a plothole but more of a question that isn't really explained in the story. How much did Zelgius exactly know about Sephiran's plan? My guess would be none of it, since he's already been shown to be very naive in game (he fully trusts Sephiran just because he told him that he was lonely). Although I mean you probably would suspect something if some guy just gave you the two most powerful swords and blessed armor, and told you to get the Fire Emblem. And in part 3 he's trying to end the war which goes against Sephiran's plans.

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1 hour ago, Lost Impact said:

- How come Micaiah/Zelgius never sensed each other were a branded? Bear in mind Ranulf can sense BK is a branded through the armor, so that isn't an excuse. And how come no laguz ever sense Micaiah is a branded at all?

Can the branded sense the presence of other Branded? I was under the impression that only Laguz can sense Branded. Speaking of which, Muarim and Vika both sense Micaiah's heritage in Part 1, though Vika only recognizes that something is different about her and doesn't attribute it to being Branded, while Muarim talks to her about it. And doesn't Ranulf only identify the Black Knight's identity through his scent (having fought him in and out of armor by that point)? I don't recall Ranulf ever mentioning that he was Branded.

1 hour ago, Lost Impact said:

- How come Daein now has a desert? I thought it was a snowy area?

The desert may overlap the border of Daein, but the majority it is situated to the east of the country, serving as a divide between it and Hatari.

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