Berwick Saga Translation (Finished, v2.3) - Updated 23 Jan 2021

[radev1924]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:59 AM, IshiharaS said:

Dear Aethin. First of all I would like to thank you for your hard work and commitment. As plenty of people pointed out, the quality of translation is at quite a level.

That said. I'm a professional translator myself, though I mainly translate into Japanese from other languages, and I strongly disagree with a lot of translations in the English patch. Mainly when the original lines are changed to almost completely opposite meaning, giving off a very different image of a character. There are what I consider to be very creative and awesome changes, but I'm the type who wants to translate faithfully, without changing characters or story of events.

So I would really love to discuss these differences, and perhaps do another translation variation, without the major liberties taken in your version. Would you be up for such a talk and perhaps a new translation with me doing the main changes?

 

I would also greatly appreciate a more faithful translation, while I appreciate Aethin's work and effort on the project greatly, the game was not made or written by him. A translator should never outright change text to suit their sensibilities (which I would use the FED Interview to prove that they did) but make the most grammatically correct and coherent translation possible without losing out on anything the original Japanese text had.

Basically I would appreciate a much more faithfully or literal translation variation by IshiharaS or someone likeminded.

[Aethin]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:15 AM, radev1924 said:

 

I would also greatly appreciate a more faithful translation, while I appreciate Aethin's work and effort on the project greatly, the game was not made or written by him. A translator should never outright change text to suit their sensibilities (which I would use the FED Interview to prove that they did) but make the most grammatically correct and coherent translation possible without losing out on anything the original Japanese text had.

Basically I would appreciate a much more faithfully or literal translation variation by IshiharaS or someone likeminded.

This isn't a counterargument to your wishes or anything, but: let it be known that when IshiharaS posted that message, I sent a PM to ask about what ideas they had and what lines were supposed translated to have "almost completely opposite meaning." I have received no response in an entire year, nor has IshiharaS even bothered to read my message.

 

More on topic, if anyone wants to bring up translation points, I do want to do my best to hear them out and take constructive criticism... And the only way to do that constructively, in my mind, is to bring up specific instances of text where you think my translation is inadequate when compared to the Japanese original. If you need the script, here you go--both Japanese and English are included. Feel free to PM me or post it in the TRS forum; I would prefer a PM (or a separate thread), since I'd like to keep this thread mainly about patching instructions and typo/error reports, but you're free to do what you want. I just ask that wherever you post it, please tag me using "@Aethin" to make sure that I see it.

In contrast, I want to make it known that making broad, sweeping claims that my Berwick translation is unfaithful or willfully distorts the meaning of the original Japanese lines without giving any examples doesn't earn any goodwill from me, especially after I made so much effort to preserve the original conversations' meanings when translating, and then to have each translated chapter proofread by other people who also know Japanese, played the JP version, and had the JP script on hand--all just to make sure I wasn't taking unwarranted liberties with the script (a precaution I decided to take after receiving some complaints from my TRS1 translation).

Spoiler

For what it's worth, here is the exact conversation that I referenced in the FED interview, spoken by Roswick toward Enid in Chapter 6 (in file 2419.msg.txt):

JAPANESE:
エニード、言うまでもない事だが                      #Eniido, iu made mo nai koto da ga
お前は女の身、公子の足手まといにならないよう注意せよ  #omae wa onna no mi, koushi no ashide-matoi ni naranai you ni chuui seyo

EXTREMELY LITERAL:
Enid, although it is thing that is not even as-far-as saying,
as for you, woman's body/position, do precaution that not become into duchy-son's foot-hand-twisting-around(=encumberance)

NATURAL ENGLISH LITERAL:
INTERPRETATION 1: Enid, this is something that goes without saying, but be cautious that your female body does not become a hindrance to Lord (Reese).
INTERPRETATION 2: Enid, this is something that goes without saying, but because you are a woman, be cautious that (you) do not become a hindrance to Lord (Reese).

MY PATCH:
It goes without saying, Enid, but you must take care not to be a burden to Lord Reese. You are no soldier.

 

I think I know more than anyone that my translations are not perfect, and looking back at many of the lines, I know there are many ways that I could have done them better... but I don't think that I've created a translation that I shouldn't be proud of or happy with. With that said, now that I have several more years of wisdom under my belt (not to mention how much I've improved in Japanese), I'd still like to go back and revise my translations--especially TRS1. No promises of when I might start or finish, but it's something that's always lingering in my mind.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Aethin
rephrased for clarity

[Saint Rubenio]

44 minutes ago, Aethin said:

This isn't a counterargument to your wishes or anything, but: let it be known that when IshiharaS posted that message, I sent a PM to ask about what ideas they had and what lines were supposed translated to have "almost completely opposite meaning." I have received no response in an entire year, nor has IshiharaS even bothered to read my message.

I don't want to butt into something that doesn't concern me, but I'd just like to say, I spoke to IshiharaS once in private. They refered to the translation as "fanfiction" on a different thread. This bold (and honestly quite rude) claim caught my attention enough that I asked them to elaborate on PMs.

It doesn't sit right with me to publicly post PMs, so I won't share their exact words (not here, at least), but they brought up a number of examples of lines, mostly from chapter 1, that had been mistranslated according to them. Now, I'm just some rando on the internet with no knowledge of Japanese, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but from their arguments, it seemed to me that IshiharaS's problem stemmed from the fact that your translation wasn't completely literal.

44 minutes ago, Aethin said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

For what it's worth, here is the exact conversation that I referenced in the FED interview, spoken by Roswick toward Enid in Chapter 6 (in file 2419.msg.txt):

JAPANESE:
エニード、言うまでもない事だが                      #Eniido, iu made mo nai koto da ga
お前は女の身、公子の足手まといにならないよう注意せよ  #omae wa onna no mi, koushi no ashide-matoi ni naranai you ni chuui seyo

EXTREMELY LITERAL:
Enid, although it is thing that is not even as-far-as saying,
as for you, woman's body/position, do precaution that not become into duchy-son's foot-hand-twisting-around(=encumberance)

NATURAL ENGLISH LITERAL:
INTERPRETATION 1: Enid, this is something that goes without saying, but be cautious that your female body does not become a hindrance to Lord (Reese).
INTERPRETATION 2: Enid, this is something that goes without saying, but because you are a woman, be cautious that (you) do not become a hindrance to Lord (Reese).

MY PATCH:
It goes without saying, Enid, but you must take care not to be a burden to Lord Reese. You are no soldier.

 

 

Going by your example, the complaints they laid out to me were basically that you didn't stop at "natural english literal" and changed the lines slightly to feel more natural. In essence, I felt they wanted a translation, while your work was more akin to a localization. Something that didn't seem like such a huge problem to me - certainly not enough to be calling your work "fanfiction."

It's worth noting that IshiharaS expressed interest about speaking to you about their grievances and about making their own, more faithful version with your help. I recommended them to send you a PM. However, IshiharaS disappeared from Serenesforest less than a week later, and from what you're saying, I'm going to assume they did not send a PM as I suggested or got in contact at all. I wonder what became of them. I hope nothing bad.

44 minutes ago, Aethin said:

With that said, now that I have several more years of wisdom under my belt (not to mention how much I've improved in Japanese), I'd still like to go back and revise my translations--especially TRS1. No promises of when I might start or finish, but it's something that's always lingering in my mind.

Obviously I won't ask for promises or anything, but I certainly would love to see a revision of TRS. Just as long as you don't touch Eugen. Eugen is perfect.

44 minutes ago, Aethin said:

I would prefer a PM (or a separate thread), since I'd like to keep this thread mainly about patching instructions and typo/error reports

Hey, since we're here... I've been sitting on a number of typos that I found in my later runs after my LP. Nothing too severe, they are all either too minor for people to notice/care or too obscure for them to even find (the biggest of them is in Volo's chapter 7-main event lol). After so much hard work on your part, and your radio silence in the months that followed 2.3, I decided not to bother you with them and let you enjoy your well-earned rest.

Now that you're here again, though, I would like to ask. Would it be fine if I sent them to you? As before, I'm not asking for promises of updates or anything. I just want to know if you'd like to have them, in case you ever have a couple free days and feel like making a v2.4, haha.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Saint Rubenio

[Aethin]

20 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Hey, since we're here... I've been sitting on a number of typos that I found in my later runs after my LP. Nothing too severe, they are all either too minor for people to notice/care or too obscure for them to even find (the biggest of them is in Volo's chapter 7-main event lol). After so much hard work on your part, and your radio silence in the months that followed 2.3, I decided not to bother you with them and let you enjoy your well-earned rest.

Now that you're here again, though, I would like to ask. Would it be fine if I sent them to you? As before, I'm not asking for promises of updates or anything. I just want to know if you'd like to have them, in case you ever have a couple free days and feel like making a v2.4, haha.

Oh! Yes, I'd be happy to have them! They will make a fine addition to my collection!

[Saint Rubenio]

59 minutes ago, Aethin said:

Oh! Yes, I'd be happy to have them! They will make a fine addition to my collection!

All right! Check your PMs.

[prince2phore]

First, a million thanks for this translation! it's perfect and and the game is also perfect, wonderful.

Now as I was playing I stumbled upon this ONE short sequence with still some original text left.

that is during the intro rolling scenes if you don't click anything. I'm playing on PS3, not via emulation. Patched with 2.3 version.

here comes a screenshot I got just in time before it goes back to fully translated scenes!

[rdrouyn]

On 3/5/2022 at 5:41 PM, Saint Rubenio said:

I don't want to butt into something that doesn't concern me, but I'd just like to say, I spoke to IshiharaS once in private. They refered to the translation as "fanfiction" on a different thread. This bold (and honestly quite rude) claim caught my attention enough that I asked them to elaborate on PMs.

It doesn't sit right with me to publicly post PMs, so I won't share their exact words (not here, at least), but they brought up a number of examples of lines, mostly from chapter 1, that had been mistranslated according to them. Now, I'm just some rando on the internet with no knowledge of Japanese, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but from their arguments, it seemed to me that IshiharaS's problem stemmed from the fact that your translation wasn't completely literal.

Going by your example, the complaints they laid out to me were basically that you didn't stop at "natural english literal" and changed the lines slightly to feel more natural. In essence, I felt they wanted a translation, while your work was more akin to a localization. Something that didn't seem like such a huge problem to me - certainly not enough to be calling your work "fanfiction."

It's worth noting that IshiharaS expressed interest about speaking to you about their grievances and about making their own, more faithful version with your help. I recommended them to send you a PM. However, IshiharaS disappeared from Serenesforest less than a week later, and from what you're saying, I'm going to assume they did not send a PM as I suggested or got in contact at all. I wonder what became of them. I hope nothing bad.

Obviously I won't ask for promises or anything, but I certainly would love to see a revision of TRS. Just as long as you don't touch Eugen. Eugen is perfect.

Hey, since we're here... I've been sitting on a number of typos that I found in my later runs after my LP. Nothing too severe, they are all either too minor for people to notice/care or too obscure for them to even find (the biggest of them is in Volo's chapter 7-main event lol). After so much hard work on your part, and your radio silence in the months that followed 2.3, I decided not to bother you with them and let you enjoy your well-earned rest.

Now that you're here again, though, I would like to ask. Would it be fine if I sent them to you? As before, I'm not asking for promises of updates or anything. I just want to know if you'd like to have them, in case you ever have a couple free days and feel like making a v2.4, haha.

I also don't know a lick of Japanese, but I'm a big fan of the translation of Berwick Saga and commend everyone involved for their hard work and dedication. In regards to IshiharaS comments, I feel compelled to add the following: I've been a fan of JRPGs for the longest time and I'm knowledgeable enough about the translation process to know that  a "literal" translation of Japanese to English is a terrible idea if not impossible. There are plenty of ambiguities to navigate with the Japanese language and implied wording in sentences to be able to unequivocally translate every sentence 100%. Also there are sentences that sound normal in the Japanese context that are not natural sounding in English and need to be adapted. Unless IshiharaS is a native speaker of Japanese and he can show his reasoning for a particular interpretation of a line or proves that he is the author of the text, his opinion is as valid as any other Japanese translator as far as I'm concerned. But I'm just an opinionated fanboy, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by rdrouyn

[Gadzooks]

IshiharaS' problem there is very obviously not about phrasing or about Aethin's translation not being literal enough, the problem is that Aethin's translation was rewritten to remove the mention of Enid being a woman and that being of concern, because that is sexist. It's all well and good to be aware that it's a sexist comment, but writing it out is not translating, it is rewriting.

Here are some other examples of rewrites in Aethin's translation: https://imgur.com/a/1mCk0Dp

Again, the problem is not that Aethin's script is not literal enough, the problem is that it is outright rewriting what is being said and changing the meaning, in these cases seemingly for the sake of propping up Enid as being more respected than she was in Japanese. So that said...

On 3/6/2022 at 4:58 AM, Aethin said:

In contrast, I want to make it known that making broad, sweeping claims that my Berwick translation is unfaithful or willfully distorts the meaning of the original Japanese lines without giving any examples doesn't earn any goodwill from me, especially after I made so much effort to preserve the original conversations' meanings when translating, and then to have each translated chapter proofread by other people who also know Japanese, played the JP version, and had the JP script on hand--all just to make sure I wasn't taking unwarranted liberties with the script (a precaution I decided to take after receiving some complaints from my TRS1 translation).

There are examples for you. How can you argue that you made your best effort to preserve the meaning when you actually went out of your way to rewrite what was said and change the meaning, instead of just translating it? It's a lot easier to just not make stuff up; the original script is already there, no extra work required.

[DogLover420]

Can you pet the dog?