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Grima and degeneration


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okay so we all know that after a while dragons in this universe will begin to degenerate which causes them to grow more feral and bloodthirsty. It’s main reason why dragon stones are needed in the first place. It’s also the reason why a good number of dragons in the franchise are evil cause they’ve degenerated or are starting to degenerate(have yet to finish SD or the elibe games yet so correct me if I’m wrong here). Though Grima is a little different. Given his backstory in echoes it’s kind of implied that he’s always been like he was in awakening. My question I guess then is that could Grima be subject to degeneration?

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One thing I wanna say is that Elibe Dragons were likely never subject to degeneration. The need for Dragonstones in Elibe was because the climate change caused by the Ending Winter caused them to take human forms to preserve energy. Archanean Dragons needed it to avoid the degeneration. 

As for the case of Grima's degeneration: Nope. He never degenerated. This is because Grima is more or less not a true dragon at all. He was created through alchemy by a madman that wanted to create the perfect life form. Grima is that product that was created using Divine Dragon Blood. But the evil thoughts and desires likely stemmed from the experiments that Grima underwent from the 80+ days he went after his creation, and the ambitions of his creator. 

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33 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

okay so we all know that after a while dragons in this universe will begin to degenerate which causes them to grow more feral and bloodthirsty. It’s main reason why dragon stones are needed in the first place. It’s also the reason why a good number of dragons in the franchise are evil cause they’ve degenerated or are starting to degenerate(have yet to finish SD or the elibe games yet so correct me if I’m wrong here). Though Grima is a little different. Given his backstory in echoes it’s kind of implied that he’s always been like he was in awakening. My question I guess then is that could Grima be subject to degeneration?

In this instance, I'd say no for these reasons:

  1. Grima has spent most of its life as an essential non-entity, sealed away within the Dragon's Table thanks to the First Exalt and(depending on whether you view Act 6 of SoV as pure canon) Thabes Labyrinth thanks to Alm. Because of this, even if Grima were subject to degeneration, it could be eons before such a fact ever came to light depending on how many times it gets sealed away with Falchion.
  2. Grima requires a vessel to carry its spirit for its body to physically manifest for whatever reason. Because of this, I personally think that Grima could only be as affected by degeneration as its vessel could, meaning said vessel would have to be a non-Elibean/Laguz Dragon.
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1 minute ago, SoulWeaver said:

In this instance, I'd say no for these reasons:

  1. Grima has spent most of its life as an essential non-entity, sealed away within the Dragon's Table thanks to the First Exalt and(depending on whether you view Act 6 of SoV as pure canon) Thabes Labyrinth thanks to Alm. Because of this, even if Grima were subject to degeneration, it could be eons before such a fact ever came to light depending on how many times it gets sealed away with Falchion.
  2. Grima requires a vessel to carry its spirit for its body to physically manifest for whatever reason. Because of this, I personally think that Grima could only be as affected by degeneration as its vessel could, meaning said vessel would have to be a non-Elibean/Laguz Dragon.

Grima wasn't really sealed in the Dragon's Table though. He was sealed, but the Dragon's Table is just the ceremony. Likely this is where Grima first emerged, after consuming the Earth Dragons to get as big as he did. Also, I don't think that Alm sealed Grima away. It was noted that Grima's presence hadn't vanished. Seems more like Grima's body was simply destroyed, but his spirit had escaped to recreate itself. 

Based on that, Grima is not overly dependent on the blood pact like Loptyr was. Naga claims that Grima can never die and will keep returning every 1000 years. So that would mean Grima doesn't truly need to the same bloodline of the vessel. If anything, he could restart bloodlines after he wakes up.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Based on that, Grima is not overly dependent on the blood pact like Loptyr was. Naga claims that Grima can never die and will keep returning every 1000 years. So that would mean Grima doesn't truly need to the same bloodline of the vessel. If anything, he could restart bloodlines after he wakes up.

That's my point 2 - Grima needs a vessel to physically manifest, and thus I think can only be affected by degeneration as much as the vessel can. If the vessel doesn't degenerate, neither does Grima.

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1 minute ago, SoulWeaver said:

That's my point 2 - Grima needs a vessel to physically manifest, and thus I think can only be affected by degeneration as much as the vessel can. If the vessel doesn't degenerate, neither does Grima.

And the vessel can't degenerate because they aren't true dragons. This was why Loptyr performed it. The blood pact was his way of escaping the degeneration. 

Just now, Water Mage said:

I believe it easier to see Grima a Divine Dragon that was already born degenerated. I like to think that Grima is what Tiki could have become if she went mad.

Well, Tiki has mentioned in both Awakening and Warriors that Robin's power is very similar to her own, and Robin's power is that of the Fell Dragon's. And Tiki has been implied to have been as strong, if not stronger than the original Naga.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Well, Tiki has mentioned in both Awakening and Warriors that Robin's power is very similar to her own, and Robin's power is that of the Fell Dragon's. And Tiki has been implied to have been as strong, if not stronger than the original Naga.

Well, Grima was created with Divine Dragon blood, so it is possible to consider him a Divine Dragon. Or at the very least, a being close to one.

It also might be possible that Grima can’t degenerate at all. He was created to be the perfect life form, and he is an artificial dragon, so he might not follow the same rules as normal dragons.

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1 minute ago, Water Mage said:

Well, Grima was created with Divine Dragon blood, so it is possible to consider him a Divine Dragon. Or at the very least, a being close to one.

It also might be possible that Grima can’t degenerate at all. He was created to be the perfect life form, and he is an artificial dragon, so he might not follow the same rules as normal dragons.

Dragon Homunculus!!! XD

There's some theories, which I thought of as well, where the Divine Blood might in fact have been from Naga herself. Naga is said to have died in Thabes. And Forneus was created in Thabes. Coincidence?

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He is no normal or real dragon, Grima is a powerful dragonlike monstrosity, created by some experiments. He can only killed by himself and degneration is a kind of dying,  I do not think that Grima can degnerate.

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Can a zombie degenerate any more than it already has? Grima is undead, or made from the dead, something like that. Grima's mind, with its overwhelming drive to consume, devour, conquer, and destroy, is already much of what a feral dragon's mind is.

 

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

There's some theories, which I thought of as well, where the Divine Blood might in fact have been from Naga herself. Naga is said to have died in Thabes. And Forneus was created in Thabes. Coincidence?

I'm not sure if I love the idea, but if IS says that, I'd be prepared for it. It adds some irony to the idea only Grima can truly kill Grima. Because Grima could be partly Naga, and hence the sacrifice of Robin (rendered meaningless to a degree (but not all the way since Robin didn't know they'd live in advance) already by the post credits survival), she could have possibly averted via different means (stepping herself temporarily in vileness and hijacking Grima with this "frequency matching" or something).

 

Mind you, I haven't seen past the first floor of Thabes. Heard too much of the tedium of it all, and I find grinding a bore in SoV (I have no DLC). So I've relied on the word of others. The ship battles en route to Thabes were good though.

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1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Can a zombie degenerate any more than it already has? Grima is undead, or made from the dead, something like that. Grima's mind, with its overwhelming drive to consume, devour, conquer, and destroy, is already much of what a feral dragon's mind is.

I'm not sure if I love the idea, but if IS says that, I'd be prepared for it. It adds some irony to the idea only Grima can truly kill Grima. Because Grima could be partly Naga, and hence the sacrifice of Robin (rendered meaningless to a degree (but not all the way since Robin didn't know they'd live in advance) already by the post credits survival), she could have possibly averted via different means (stepping herself temporarily in vileness and hijacking Grima with this "frequency matching" or something).

Mind you, I haven't seen past the first floor of Thabes. Heard too much of the tedium of it all, and I find grinding a bore in SoV (I have no DLC). So I've relied on the word of others. The ship battles en route to Thabes were good though.

You oughta finish the Thabes Labyrinth. Its awesome in my opinion, and adds to the terror that Grima is as you go through it from the legions of Risen and find the stone tablets depicting the information. And then face the superboss of the game.

I don't think Grima is dead nor alive. He seems more of an entity that is forever trapped between the two. And he's the first enemy that created via more artificial means (science!) than being simply born or  created via magic.

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1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

I believe it easier to see Grima a Divine Dragon that was already born degenerated. I like to think that Grima is what Tiki could have become if she went mad.

That certainly is a possibility but the only known divine dragons to even come close to degeneration are mila and duma. Though it can be speculated that the divine dragon blood used to make Grima belonged to Duma or mila.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Based on that, Grima is not overly dependent on the blood pact like Loptyr was. Naga claims that Grima can never die and will keep returning every 1000 years. So that would mean Grima doesn't truly need to the same bloodline of the vessel. If anything, he could restart bloodlines after he wakes up.

That's another question I have regarding Grima. How did the bloodline start exactly? I mean If we're going by the idea that forneus is an ancestor of robin and validar then Forneus would've had to have a kid either before or after the possession. However if what you say is true, then honestly that makes Grima more frightening.  Damn it IS I need answers!

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5 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

That's another question I have regarding Grima. How did the bloodline start exactly? I mean If we're going by the idea that forneus is an ancestor of robin and validar then Forneus would've had to have a kid either before or after the possession. However if what you say is true, then honestly that makes Grima more frightening.  Damn it IS I need answers!

Precisely. Grab the information that we are given in Echoes and Awakening regarding Grima. Of course, this information cannot be placed on the wikia because it would be speculation. 

We likely would get all the answers if we had a game revolving around the First Exalt, which my friend and I plan of making a fanfic out of. Providing that FE Switch doesn't do that first.

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

We likely would get all the answers if we had a game revolving around the First Exalt, which my friend and I plan of making a fanfic out of. Providing that FE Switch doesn't do that first.

Does lore heroes and lore events ever in video games later become the basis of prequels?

They didn't do that with Anri, with the Crusaders, the Scouring, the original reign of the Demon King, the Three Heroes of Ashera. Lore stuff exists for lore and the present game, virtually never for prequels. (And if I had a choice, I'd take a Magvel prequel first.)

Although there is one case of a JRPG series I can think of which partly did a prequel set in the ancient past of yore. The game was...

Spoiler

Only released on an Nintendo system. To be precise...

Spoiler

The Gamecube.

Spoiler

It was Baten Kaitos: Origins. Which...

Spoiler

Alternates between ~20 years prior to Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean. And...

Spoiler

The Age of the Gods 4000 years ago just before and during Malpercio's polluting of the Earth. And honestly (I'm getting critical)...

Spoiler

I now feel the 4000 years ago stuff got shortchanged by having to share a game with events 20 years prior. I mean I liked the alternating, it worked, but it served the present more than it did the past. And all my criticisms are:

Spoiler

While I like the Dark Brethren and Wiseman as suggesting extradimensional beings are at play for the world of BK's problems, I do not like that Malpercio's existence can be owed to five brash teenagers, well one really, since... Seph was it? Or was it Thoran? Well whoever the blond-haired leader was, was a little too stupid when he agreed to sell their souls for the power to defeat Wiseman.

There are also some inconsistencies. They almost forgot about the Earth Pendant, Sword of the Heavens, and Ocean Mirror in favor of making Guillo the killer of Malpercio. And what happened to Sagi's Marno Afterling after Origins?

They also just had to rush the past events and leave what we see in a fragmentary nature. We don't see the Dark Brethren pollute the world, nor do we get to know the Malpercio five all that well as individuals.

I can accept the Wicked God Malpercio in Eternal Wings as the puppet of the still extant Dark Brethren, completely devoid of the souls of the five whom comprise it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

We likely would get all the answers if we had a game revolving around the First Exalt, which my friend and I plan of making a fanfic out of. Providing that FE Switch doesn't do that first.

I would love to read that if you get around to making it. 

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6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Does lore heroes and lore events ever in video games later become the basis of prequels?

They didn't do that with Anri, with the Crusaders, the Scouring, the original reign of the Demon King, the Three Heroes of Ashera. Lore stuff exists for lore and the present game, virtually never for prequels. (And if I had a choice, I'd take a Magvel prequel first.)

Although there is one case of a JRPG series I can think of which partly did a prequel set in the ancient past of yore. The game was...

  Hide contents

Only released on an Nintendo system. To be precise...

  Hide contents

The Gamecube.

  Hide contents

It was Baten Kaitos: Origins. Which...

  Hide contents

Alternates between ~20 years prior to Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean. And...

  Hide contents

The Age of the Gods 4000 years ago just before and during Malpercio's polluting of the Earth. And honestly (I'm getting critical)...

  Hide contents

I now feel the 4000 years ago stuff got shortchanged by having to share a game with events 20 years prior. I mean I liked the alternating, it worked, but it served the present more than it did the past. And all my criticisms are:

  Hide contents

While I like the Dark Brethren and Wiseman as suggesting extradimensional beings are at play for the world of BK's problems, I do not like that Malpercio's existence can be owed to five brash teenagers, well one really, since... Seph was it? Or was it Thoran? Well whoever the blond-haired leader was, was a little too stupid when he agreed to sell their souls for the power to defeat Wiseman.

There are also some inconsistencies. They almost forgot about the Earth Pendant, Sword of the Heavens, and Ocean Mirror in favor of making Guillo the killer of Malpercio. And what happened to Sagi's Marno Afterling after Origins?

They also just had to rush the past events and leave what we see in a fragmentary nature. We don't see the Dark Brethren pollute the world, nor do we get to know the Malpercio five all that well as individuals.

I can accept the Wicked God Malpercio in Eternal Wings as the puppet of the still extant Dark Brethren, completely devoid of the souls of the five whom comprise it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True. However, in regards to this case, we actually WOULD need to have a prequel, because it was through the First Exalt that literally so many established lores in Archanea had been altered. Such as Naga suddenly existing, the disappearance of the Earth Dragons, why the Shield of Seals now is needed for an Awakening ritual and why the Falchion got sealed in the first place. And what the hell taguel are. 

So many things are in Awakening because it was meant to be a huge reference game. But the time for references is gone due to Awakening keeping the series alive.

5 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

I would love to read that if you get around to making it. 

Um... I said that, yet your quote has it that Interdimensional Observer did. XD

And yeah, it all depends. We might actually ask for other people to help us out.

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3 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Grima has spent most of its life as an essential non-entity, sealed away within the Dragon's Table thanks to the First Exalt and(depending on whether you view Act 6 of SoV as pure canon) Thabes Labyrinth thanks to Alm. Because of this, even if Grima were subject to degeneration, it could be eons before such a fact ever came to light depending on how many times it gets sealed away with Falchion.

He was only sealed twice. Awakening takes place 2000 years after the first three Fire Emblem games, while the Exalt sealed Grima away 1000 years ago before Awakening begins.

As for whether or not the Thabes visit is canon, both sides are plausible:

  1. If Alm and company didn't go, it would make a fair amount of sense, as he did just accidentally conquer an entire continent and became it's first leader due to factors (mostly) outside of his control and it is mentioned in the epilogue that the new kingdom faced multiple rebellions and an increase of bandits taking advantage of the chaos, so they probably wouldn't of had much time or reason to take a trip to Archanea.
  2. If they did go, the mysterious traveller who starts the post-game quest would of had knowledge of Grima (somehow), heard that Valentia's new king had a weapon that could kill gods/dragons, and decided to enlist his aid. Since it only takes around a week to sail between the two continents, it's not to much of a stretch to say they had the time for the detour. Regardless, it would explain why Alm's Dynasty is noted to have lasted for only 1000 years, as well as why Valentia is no longer united by the time of Awakening; Grima remembered who sealed him first, and took revenge by wiping out Alm's bloodline and destroying much of the kingdom. I'd venture a guess that the Falchion was destroyed in the battle against him, perhaps even weakening Grima to the point that he could be defeated by the Exalt, and given Grima's destructive power, it could also explain why medieval weaponry is still in common use despite the time gap between these events.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

We likely would get all the answers if we had a game revolving around the First Exalt, which my friend and I plan of making a fanfic out of. Providing that FE Switch doesn't do that first.

I don't think that'll be the plot of the switch game, as I know most people want a break from Archenea after Awakening and SoV. That being said, it does seems as if IS is planning on a making a game of the event  eventually and is building up the lore and story behind it early on, though I don't expect we'll see anything for a few years (hopefully after they've show they can write an all-around solid story and have nailed the gameplay mechanics).

 

48 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yeah, it all depends. We might actually ask for other people to help us out.

Where are you writing this fanfic, out of question? I'm just curious, as I have some ideas I wouldn't mind throwing out there.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Um... I said that, yet your quote has it that Interdimensional Observer did. XD

The reason that must have happened is that they quoted my quoting of you. Quoting a quoting makes the quoting person the originator of the quoted quote. Always go back to the original unquoted source if you want to hit up the quote maker on that quote.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

But the time for references is gone due to Awakening keeping the series alive.

Hm? Fates moved passed the world of Ylisse and Valm. The series can and has moved on from the world of Awakening. Unless you consider SoV a sign of reverting back to it, which I find debatable. And hopefully FE Switch will move on and give us a totally new continent in an completely unrelated world. If IS wants to begin connecting a bunch of continents in a grand, centuries spanning tale- I'd rather they do this on a blank slate.

Still, write your fanfict if it is fun for you. I take myself too seriously when writing fanficts and rarely complete an idea. I have a notion of what to do for a Magvel prequel- but I honestly lack the skill to flesh it out.

One thing I'd like to do is make five "Sacred Relationships", each of a different sort, so I'll permit one lover-lover, but no more, others could be: sibling-sibling (or just close relatives in general), parent-child, friend-friend, teacher-student, liege-servant, rival-rival, two individuals in opposite situations, two individuals in similar situations. The idea isn't anything to do with magic here, rather it'd be the history behind the Sacred Twins weapons being twins. One weapon of each Twin would have been created by one individual in the relationship, although only one of the two individuals would emerge one of the Five Heroes. The other might fight with them to the end, or they'd die along the way.

The other issue I'd have to deal with in writing a Magvel prequel, would be how to deal with the full power Demon King effectively ruling the world. I'd like an apocalyptic-ish setting, but not grimdark or anything. And I don't want to make the Demon King originally human, or dragon, or get summoned partway into the game. I want them at the top of their game right away.

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25 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

He was only sealed twice. Awakening takes place 2000 years after the first three Fire Emblem games, while the Exalt sealed Grima away 1000 years ago before Awakening begins.

As for whether or not the Thabes visit is canon, both sides are plausible:

  1. If Alm and company didn't go, it would make a fair amount of sense, as he did just accidentally conquer an entire continent and became it's first leader due to factors (mostly) outside of his control and it is mentioned in the epilogue that the new kingdom faced multiple rebellions and an increase of bandits taking advantage of the chaos, so they probably wouldn't of had much time or reason to take a trip to Archanea.
  2. If they did go, the mysterious traveller who starts the post-game quest would of had knowledge of Grima (somehow), heard that Valentia's new king had a weapon that could kill gods/dragons, and decided to enlist his aid. Since it only takes around a week to sail between the two continents, it's not to much of a stretch to say they had the time for the detour. Regardless, it would explain why Alm's Dynasty is noted to have lasted for only 1000 years, as well as why Valentia is no longer united by the time of Awakening; Grima remembered who sealed him first, and took revenge by wiping out Alm's bloodline and destroying much of the kingdom. I'd venture a guess that the Falchion was destroyed in the battle against him, perhaps even weakening Grima to the point that he could be defeated by the Exalt, and given Grima's destructive power, it could also explain why medieval weaponry is still in common use despite the time gap between these events.

I don't think that'll be the plot of the switch game, as I know most people want a break from Archenea after Awakening and SoV. That being said, it does seems as if IS is planning on a making a game of the event  eventually and is building up the lore and story behind it early on, though I don't expect we'll see anything for a few years (hopefully after they've show they can write an all-around solid story and have nailed the gameplay mechanics).

Where are you writing this fanfic, out of question? I'm just curious, as I have some ideas I wouldn't mind throwing out there.

Even if Alm defeated Grima, he didn't seal him. Falchion isn't what defeats Grima. But rather Naga must unlock Falchion's true might and channel her power through it. This is because I am theorizing that Naga 1000 years ago altered the function of the Shield of Seals to now channel its ability to seal the Earth Dragons into Falchion, so that Falchion can seal Grima. 

As for where I am writing it, it's fanfiction.net.

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The reason that must have happened is that they quoted my quoting of you. Quoting a quoting makes the quoting person the originator of the quoted quote. Always go back to the original unquoted source if you want to hit up the quote maker on that quote.

Hm? Fates moved passed the world of Ylisse and Valm. The series can and has moved on from the world of Awakening. Unless you consider SoV a sign of reverting back to it, which I find debatable. And hopefully FE Switch will move on and give us a totally new continent in an completely unrelated world. If IS wants to begin connecting a bunch of continents in a grand, centuries spanning tale- I'd rather they do this on a blank slate.

Still, write your fanfict if it is fun for you. I take myself too seriously when writing fanficts and rarely complete an idea. I have a notion of what to do for a Magvel prequel- but I honestly lack the skill to flesh it out.

One thing I'd like to do is make five "Sacred Relationships", each of a different sort, so I'll permit one lover-lover, but no more, others could be: sibling-sibling (or just close relatives in general), parent-child, friend-friend, teacher-student, liege-servant, rival-rival, two individuals in opposite situations, two individuals in similar situations. The idea isn't anything to do with magic here, rather it'd be the history behind the Sacred Twins weapons being twins. One weapon of each Twin would have been created by one individual in the relationship, although only one of the two individuals would emerge one of the Five Heroes. The other might fight with them to the end, or they'd die along the way.

The other issue I'd have to deal with in writing a Magvel prequel, would be how to deal with the full power Demon King effectively ruling the world. I'd like an apocalyptic-ish setting, but not grimdark or anything. And I don't want to make the Demon King originally human, or dragon, or get summoned partway into the game. I want them at the top of their game right away.

Well, Fates was trying to be like Awakening... 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Fates was trying to be like Awakening... 

In gameplay and tone and a whole lot of other things. But i got the sense you were referring specifically to the world here. And contrary to Chrom's little blurb, there is very little reason to believe Fates exists in the same dimension as Awakening. And there is very little connecting the two world-wise outside of some supposedly reincarnations and three literal dimension travelers. It isn't like connecting the two worlds means much since the plots don't connect at all.

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Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

In gameplay and tone and a whole lot of other things. But i got the sense you were referring specifically to the world here. And contrary to Chrom's little blurb, there is very little reason to believe Fates exists in the same dimension as Awakening. And there is very little connecting the two world-wise outside of some supposedly reincarnations and three literal dimension travelers. It isn't like connecting the two worlds means much since the plots don't connect at all.

Anna is the answer. She's Ashunera, or maybe above even her. Anna exists virtually everywhere, so she can pass on stories of other worlds.

But yes. Fates tried to ride on Awakening's popularity. I would rather not try to consider the incarnation theory, because if Selena is Caeldori's mother, then Selena gave birth to the incarnation of her own mother. Last thing we need is for Selena to be her own grandmother stuff.

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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yeah, it all depends. We might actually ask for other people to help us out.

 

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Where are you writing this fanfic, out of question? I'm just curious, as I have some ideas I wouldn't mind throwing out there.

same I have some ideas that I think could add to the story

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We've only got a few stuff done, from the premise to some character archetypes. 

Male Lord being the First Exalt, best friend is another main character and can be considered the Avatar, a female Jagen-Oifey, and a cleric. Actually drew some designs for them.

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