Why is this such a big deal?

[ping]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Soren by the way set fire to the Begnion Central Army's supplies, and nobody had a problem with that, why it was his biggest success of Part 3. You are told not to kill the Senators, though Soren puts it in cold diplomatic and not humanitarian terms.

To be fair, they set fire to supplies, not people. ;)

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

I've never really understood that either. Micaiah is fighting a war that she knows she has no chance of winning head on. It's a form of guerilla warfare.

So I started thinking, well it could be a number of things:

These aren't random people she's ordering to burn. These are characters the player knows and who the game as presented as being firmly on the right side of things.

They think she's a hypocrite for suddenly relying on these tactics when she refused them earlier and condemned their use when fighting Begnion.

The whole Sothe thing.

Of course there's counters to each of those but those are the reasons I can think of for people not being happy with it. Then there's considering what the rex- tomes can do. Realistically magic of that caliber would wipe out probably dozens of enemy soldiers, but FE logic man.

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I've never really understood that either. Micaiah is fighting a war that she knows she has no chance of winning head on. It's a form of guerilla warfare.

So I started thinking, well it could be a number of things:

These aren't random people she's ordering to burn. These are characters the player knows and who the game as presented as being firmly on the right side of things.

They think she's a hypocrite for suddenly relying on these tactics when she refused them earlier and condemned their use when fighting Begnion.

The whole Sothe thing.

Of course there's counters to each of those but those are the reasons I can think of for people not being happy with it. Then there's considering what the rex- tomes can do. Realistically magic of that caliber would wipe out probably dozens of enemy soldiers, but FE logic man.

My belief is that what Micaiah was doing, using oil and fire tactics, contrasts heavily to what the Laguz Army must have heard. After all, Soren calls Micaiah as the Priestess of Dawn, meaning that word had to have spread about her exploits. So if all they've heard were good things, hearing her to be some kind and noble figure, then such a vicious tactic would make them all wonder what her deal is. 

[Florete]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

My belief is that what Micaiah was doing, using oil and fire tactics, contrasts heavily to what the Laguz Army must have heard. After all, Soren calls Micaiah as the Priestess of Dawn, meaning that word had to have spread about her exploits. So if all they've heard were good things, hearing her to be some kind and noble figure, then such a vicious tactic would make them all wonder what her deal is. 

Quote

Soren: She was the hero of the recent Daein uprising. Micaiah is her name, if I
    recall correctly. Supposedly she has performed miracles and turned many
    losing battles into victories. An interesting figure.

Ranulf: Miracles? I'm finding that a bit hard to swallow. Are you sure about
    that?

Soren: Who knows? Personally, I doubt it. All I know is that the Daein army
    believes in her miracles, which makes her dangerous.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[cutscene – Micaiah looking up at the sky holding her tome to her chest with
    Sothe in fighting stance behind her, in front of Daein Keep]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Soren: This Maiden of Dawn is supposed to be the savior of Daein, whose
    miraculous powers freed their people from tyranny. In other words, her
    followers are fanatics who see her as a goddess. She will make a formidable
    enemy.

These don't sound like words someone uses for a "kind and noble" figure. He calls her "dangerous" and "formidable." He also calls her followers "fanatics," which is telling in itself.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

These don't sound like words someone uses for a "kind and noble" figure. He calls her "dangerous" and "formidable." He also calls her followers "fanatics," which is telling in itself.

Soren has always been the type to be harsh on judgments though, and since he's unlikely to genuinely praise anyone if they aren't named Ike, it makes sense that he would use those kinds of terms. After all, he himself is a fanatic who thinks the world of Ike. 

But based on what Soren has said, and how everyone knows how critical Soren is, Ike and the others likely come to the conclusion that she is supposed to be a good person. 

[Florete]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Soren has always been the type to be harsh on judgments though, and since he's unlikely to genuinely praise anyone if they aren't named Ike, it makes sense that he would use those kinds of terms. After all, he himself is a fanatic who thinks the world of Ike. 

But based on what Soren has said, and how everyone knows how critical Soren is, Ike and the others likely come to the conclusion that she is supposed to be a good person. 

I strongly disagree. I don't think anything in the text supports that (prior to them fighting on the same side, of course), and they're given no reason to believe such a thing.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

I strongly disagree. I don't think anything in the text supports that (prior to them fighting on the same side, of course), and they're given no reason to believe such a thing.

Uhh... and why is that? Everyone knows how Soren judges everyone harsher than others, even good people. Doesn't mean that he is accurate about it. This is a guy that wanted t ditch Elincia and side with Daein in Path of Radiance, as well as provoke the laguz that saved them. Even if he mellowed out, his sharp tongue didn't exactly stop. 

So when Soren says something in a harsh tone like he has here, the translation that others would have wouldn't resemble how Soren describes her as. Of course, it would if they see how she tried to incinerate them with oil and fire.

[Florete]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Uhh... and why is that? Everyone knows how Soren judges everyone harsher than others, even good people. Doesn't mean that he is accurate about it. This is a guy that wanted t ditch Elincia and side with Daein in Path of Radiance, as well as provoke the laguz that saved them. Even if he mellowed out, his sharp tongue didn't exactly stop. 

So when Soren says something in a harsh tone like he has here, the translation that others would have wouldn't resemble how Soren describes her as. Of course, it would if they see how she tried to incinerate them with oil and fire.

You're operating on your own knowledge and assumptions here, not seeing it from their point of view. Why would they see Micaiah as "kind and noble"? They know that she led the liberation of Daein from Begnion oppression, which tells them she has skill in battle and tactics (not typically considered "nice person" qualities). They don't meet her until she's the aggressor against them. And then there's the knowledge Soren tells them of her. There's no reason for them to see her as a good person.

They know Soren, but they trust him and his judgement, especially when it comes to knowledge of something (or someone) they don't actually know at all. They won't think, "Well, Soren is always harsh, so we should tone it down a bit and I guess that means Micaiah is a good person." That's ridiculous.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Florete said:

You're operating on your own knowledge and assumptions here, not seeing it from their point of view. Why would they see Micaiah as "kind and noble"? They know that she led the liberation of Daein from Begnion oppression, which tells them she has skill in battle and tactics (not typically considered "nice person" qualities). They don't meet her until she's the aggressor against them. And then there's the knowledge Soren tells them of her. There's no reason for them to see her as a good person.

They know Soren, but they trust him and his judgement, especially when it comes to knowledge of something (or someone) they don't actually know at all. They won't think, "Well, Soren is always harsh, so we should tone it down a bit and I guess that means Micaiah is a good person." That's ridiculous.

Yes, they trust Soren's judgment and tactics, but they wouldn't take the sharp words he throws as facts though, because he is known to throw those around a lot, and they aren't actually completely accurate. His words can simply be interpreted as something different. Okay, I'll agree maybe not specifically "kind and noble" completely, but they wouldn't view her in a negative light that much because of the fact that she was against oppression and fought for the people. 

So in that regard, Micaiah's actions wouldn't actually fit with what they know, because this if the kind of tactic they'd expect someone like Ashnard or Petrine to perform or something. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

The use of "dangerous" isn't problematic here, since Soren is describing Micaiah's potential against the Laguz Alliance, there is no need to sugarcoat how much carnage a machine gun could inflict on a human body. The Laguz Alliance needs accurate information about how big potential threats are.

Soren does qualify his mention of the miracles with "Personally", so he makes it clear this is just his opinion whether they are true or not.

I forget how the rest of that conversation goes, but I remember either Ike or Soren comparing it to how Tanith and Sigrun act regarding Sanaki (lovely bit of foreshadowing here). And if Soren said it, well he'd be insulting the Apostle too by calling the Holy Guard fanatics, so if he made the comparison, I think he meant it without an opinion on Micaiah's nature as a person.

It is worth including mention that the boss of 3-11 and plenty of other scenes make it clear that Daein citizens do hold Micaiah in very very high regard. Soren is not without a basis in truth concerning the fanatic statement.

So overall, Soren was neither indicting Micaiah as a cult leader, nor casting her as a saint. Just that she was a major threat to the Laguz Alliance and co..