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so in cyrkeensia in birthright i beat xander and king garon. the avatar still thinks xander is so much stronger. Why? i beat garon with 1 turn.

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Gameplay and story segregation, maybe?

Edit: Beat me to it.

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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40 minutes ago, Narwhy said:

lol ok

werent you meant to beat xander? i did without hacks or grinding

Beating Xander is certainly doable in Normal, done it myself. But then again, Normal mode is the easiest difficulty in Fates. The intent is to freeze the lake and run across to the stage.

Though what were to doing to beat Garon? I can only assume Phoenix mode, because you do say no grinding.

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I hacked Lodestar, Omega Yato, Aether, And other stuff for garon on my hacked run. i killed xander on a normal run though. btw garon was lunatic

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32 minutes ago, Narwhy said:

lol ok

werent you meant to beat xander? i did without hacks or grinding

Uh, no?

I mean, props to you for defeating a powerful promoted unit as well as what is essentially an endgame boss who shows up early just to intimidate you, but the game wants you to avoid those two in a mad rush for the exit.

I think the canon reason for why Xander is defeated in spite of being "stronger" is the typical explanation that he was holding back his full strength.  The older brothers of both kingdoms are pretty much supposed to be the strongest characters in the world next to their fathers and the First Dragons which they draw their dragon vein powers from.  I don't think they ever dare suggest that Corrin is stronger than them at any point in the stories; it's almost always that they just can't bring themselves to use their full strength against Corrin, or that something else happens that causes a withdrawal from the battle between the two forces.

If anything, I think that between the three of them, they're all evenly matched in canon by the time you reach endgame, no matter which path you pick.

 

The easiest answer really truly is also the best one though; gameplay-story segregation.  I once made Oboro the strongest unit in the army; that doesn't mean she's actually supposed to be the strongest character in the world of Fates.

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if i beat garon in one turn don't you think i could beat xander at full power?

btw kaze as a feral dragon is HILARIOUS

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So you're ignoring story/gameplay segregation and claiming things are too easy because you hacked?

That's not an accomplishment.

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If there wasn't gameplay/story segregation, the game would end at this chapter if you off Garon somehow.  Which is silly for obvious reasons.

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1 hour ago, Narwhy said:

btw kaze as a feral dragon is HILARIOUS

Thus the shoe fits.

I don't know whether to laugh or be disappointed.

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5 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

I think the canon reason for why Xander is defeated in spite of being "stronger" is the typical explanation that he was holding back his full strength.  The older brothers of both kingdoms are pretty much supposed to be the strongest characters in the world next to their fathers and the First Dragons which they draw their dragon vein powers from.  I don't think they ever dare suggest that Corrin is stronger than them at any point in the stories; it's almost always that they just can't bring themselves to use their full strength against Corrin, or that something else happens that causes a withdrawal from the battle between the two forces.

If anything, I think that between the three of them, they're all evenly matched in canon by the time you reach endgame, no matter which path you pick.

 

So they're supposed to be the strongest things in Fateslandia beside their daddies and dragons?

I'm not quite sure how to feel about that. Doesn't help the real Garon doesn't exist anymore and Sumeragi is dead and Valla'ed up plus rather underpar in gameplay- great Atk plus Astra, but his Speed is really bad and the Hagakure ruins that pretty Atk after the first strike. Ananny being the only Firstie seen is also degenerate stupid by this point, so there goes his reputation.

Then again, when is who is the strongest ever made a big deal of outside of say Tellius?

Amongst the mortals there, we get a pretty good idea that its Dheginsea > Ike > Zelgius = playable Laguz Royals barring Kurthnaga and plus Giffca. Tellius makes a point of emphasizing the Laguz choosing their rulers based on strength, and that comes through in the gameplay real strongly. 

Maybe my issue with Xander and Ryoma is that they join so early. Ryoma joins in Chapter 14 BR, Xander 16 CQ, and Rev. 16-17. There is a lot of game left by the time they join, and their stats start appropriately low (they're great by their join time standards, but they aren't Endgame worthy stats). By comparison, the cult of the Laguz Royals sees the hype maintained by delaying the playability of all of them to the final fight of PoR, and outside of the two fights in Part 1, all of the Laguz Royals for Part 4 in Tellius. I guess I'm saying maybe I'd appreciate their lore strength more if they were Gotoh-esque?

Then again, Camus is said to be one of the strongest in Archanea if not the single strongest, and yet Sirius starts rather weak in NM (original Mystery I hear is a different matter). Zeke however is fairly strong thankfully. 

I've also heard the Holy Blooded, more so the Majors, are seen as demigods in Jugdral (I haven't played these). But Ares and Shannan join only 1 chapter into the 2nd Gen. Although in their case, the power of the Holy Weapons is so much greater than Siegfried and Rajinto that I see it's conceivable their power despite the join time can be very well felt.

 

By why should I care about power levels in Fates? I see only units and battlefields, challenging, fun, easy, tedious, in between, some combination or otherwise. Plot does not exist, the characters do not exist, the world does not exist. *Continues to hypnotize myself*

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Barring the actual productive debate posts in this thread...

OP,  are you really freaking complaining about a use case that was meant to be there as a failsafe in case of bugs?

What is your understanding of programming events for games?

Because clearly you don't know any despite using hacks.

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On 2/4/2018 at 3:14 PM, Dayni said:

Beating Xander is certainly doable in Normal, done it myself. But then again, Normal mode is the easiest difficulty in Fates. The intent is to freeze the lake and run across to the stage.

Though what were to doing to beat Garon? I can only assume Phoenix mode, because you do say no grinding.

You can kill Garon in no-grind no-dlc with good guard guage management and stack abuse.

Edited by joshcja

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On 4.2.2018 at 3:34 PM, Narwhy said:

so in cyrkeensia in birthright i beat xander and king garon. the avatar still thinks xander is so much stronger. Why? i beat garon with 1 turn.

If you are a programmer, you would know, that you need only for this situation great effort to make this fitting into the story.The effort would become to big, compared to the sense of making a lot of special dialogues just for the situation that the player killed Garon and it would be very bad for the story telling.  The second dialogue wouldn't be good for the story too.

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50 minutes ago, joshcja said:

You can kill Garon in no-grind no-dlc with good guard guage management and stack abuse.

True, True. Not something I'd lose sleep attempting to do myself.

I was trying to figure out how this person did it and the answer was disappointing.

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:12 AM, Dayni said:

I was trying to figure out how this person did it and the answer was disappointing.

Indeed, I was somewhat impressed to hear of them defeating Garon until I heard about the hacking.

Not even very powerful hacking from the sounds of it.  Just some fiddling around to make characters into classes they're not meant to take on.  It really just sounds like save editing; maybe slightly more powerful, but certainly not by much.  Regardless, that stuff is rudimentary by hacking standards.  I think some here give this person too much credit.

 

The only dialogue I'd see that could work with defeating Xander is something along the lines of Corrin saying, "Xander retreated, but I know he was holding back on me".  But that just seems so pointless when, for one thing, you probably didn't easily overpower Xander with one unit anyway and, for another, they already heavily imply throughout the story that Xander and the other Nohrian royal siblings are reticent to fight your forces.  Certainly not worth the effort to do extra conditions coding and expend additional brainpower writing material.

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On 2/6/2018 at 11:12 AM, Dayni said:

True, True. Not something I'd lose sleep attempting to do myself.

I was trying to figure out how this person did it and the answer was disappointing.

It's not super complicated. Get full guard on a shuriken user and build a VoF!Silias, an extremely stacked Jakob, or a stacked early Caeldori/Dwyer that can 4-6 hit KO Groans while holding Corrin. Silver shuriken groans and gtfo with your ninja then send in the pain train. Provided you can survive 1 hit from Groan (stack guage to trigger on the hex turn) he goes down like a bitch.

Alternately just hexing rod his ass if you're not opposed to MC rewards.

It's a free kill worth oddles of exp so unless you're ltcing it's always worth blicking groans.

Edited by joshcja

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On 2/8/2018 at 2:47 AM, Ertrick36 said:

Indeed, I was somewhat impressed to hear of them defeating Garon until I heard about the hacking.

Not even very powerful hacking from the sounds of it.  Just some fiddling around to make characters into classes they're not meant to take on.  It really just sounds like save editing; maybe slightly more powerful, but certainly not by much.  Regardless, that stuff is rudimentary by hacking standards.  I think some here give this person too much credit.

 

The only dialogue I'd see that could work with defeating Xander is something along the lines of Corrin saying, "Xander retreated, but I know he was holding back on me".  But that just seems so pointless when, for one thing, you probably didn't easily overpower Xander with one unit anyway and, for another, they already heavily imply throughout the story that Xander and the other Nohrian royal siblings are reticent to fight your forces.  Certainly not worth the effort to do extra conditions coding and expend additional brainpower writing material.

I mean, by hacking I just meant powersave, and I probably wouldn't even have been able to kill Garon on any higher difficulty, since this is my first FE game and I play Normal Casual. Next time I play through Birthright, I'll make an effort do beat Garon early to see if it is possible for me to do it. 

Also, since Birthright was the easiest of the three routes, of course Xander's chapter can easily be finished in one turn even without Corrin, because of locktouch. It would be so much more interesting if Xander was stronger in that chapter and you had to go all the way around and beat his retainers to enter the room and beat Xander. But the game is not going to get anymore changes at this point, so Xander's chapter will remain a one-turn chapter forever.

But I really should have mentioned the hacking.

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