grimleal The Grimleal Religion

[omegaxis1]

Everyone that played Awakening must have seen the Grimleal cult, and were likely VERY disappointed by how it was. Unlike other Fire Emblem series that held religion, such as Genealogy's Lopto Sect, and Tellius series religion that talk of Ashera, the Grimleal is a religion in Awakening that wasn't fully explored. Even the Duma Faithful were explored a bit in Echoes.

But we hardly know a thing about the Grimleal, what sets it apart, and so on.

My fic has the intention of exploring some of the stuff, and about two of the three things I'll say did get explained and explored. But I want to hear your opinions regarding it, and what you think about it.

1) Teachings:

The Grimleal was founded under the worship of Grima. However, what Grima is depicted as differs depending on what form of faith you have. If you are of the minor faith, which makes up the majority of the religion, Grima is a god that exists to punish the non-believers, and protect the faithful.

However, the Major Faithfuls, the one that are the fewer in the religion, know something deeper. In that Grima is born from the darkness of humans themselves.

Here're a few quotes I have Validar speak in my fic where he explains it in:

Quote

"How long has the world existed with man? Every sin man commits, Grima is born from. However, in the past, many have resisted such sins, and thus were saved from their judgment.

Humans are not born evil. We are born sinless, pure and true.

However, after we are born, we live, we grow, and evolve. It is only then that we can be led astray. Temptations arise, opportunities present themselves, and chaos ensues. While many lose their way, others do not and instead perform great deeds, becoming praiseworthy. Unfortunately, the number of those that are able to resist the dark temptations of man are too few. Evil remains within man, persisting through generations through means of prejudice, manipulation, murder, theft, and many others.

The sins become too numerous to be forgiven, and far too great for any of the few that resist these sins to suppress. As time continues, the sins grow, and eventually, it is too much. Thus, almost a millennia in the past, mankind's sins formed Grima, who came to punish us."

Quote

"Grima isn't simply a calamity. Grima is the end. His very existence serves as a symbol. The ultimate proof that everything and everyone in this world is beyond salvation. That this world, and all its inhabitants, should not exist."

Quote

"Grima exists because the world has become far too corrupt, too evil. Humanity has poisoned the world to the point that it is beyond salvation. So when Grima arrives, he comes to seek to end the world to start over."

To the Major Faithfuls, Grima is a sign that the world must start over. The entity where humanity has evolved in all the wrong ways, and that the world must start over by ending humanity. This is what the religion believes. And anyone that tries to fight against that are the most vile creatures, as they are trying to prolong the suffering of the world.

2) What defines the Minor and Major Faithfuls?

Simple, knowledge. You must study extensively on the customs and ritual of the religion. Afterwards, when you prove yourself, you are given the chance to ascend to the Major ranks. However, the reason these are so few is because the ritual for it is brutal. In there, the person has the Brand of the Defile burned onto their backs using a burning hot iron branding tool. Naturally, such a thing is incredibly dangerous, and if the pain does not kill you, the possible infections and damage to the skin could. After you receive the brand, you get treated almost immediately, but many die during recovery.

But the ones that manage to survive, they are able to read the encrypted grimoires and have access to major knowledge about the religion, and even attain a great deal of wealth and political power, and some even attain some more ancient and powerful tomes to learn more powerful magic to grow stronger.

This test is mandatory, but the person are informed of the risks, making sure that the dangers are very clear to them. If they accept, it shows true dedication to the cult, if you're willing to put your life on the line and scar yourself for life, it shows.

3) The Hierophants:

Obviously, the Hierophant or the leader of the Grimleal obviously MUST have Fellblood in them. But exactly what makes the person want to serve Grima? What sort of brainwashing did they go through? Or rather, what did Validar go through for him to want to end the world? And would this have also been Robin if he/she remained in the cult, rather than be spirited away by their mother?

Well, it basically is that the Fellbloods are taught to utterly hate the world. They are raised to believe that the world is truly vile and should be eradicated. This is done by making the child see the cruelties of mankind, from the war ravaged areas, to how bandits attack helpless citizens, and even see how people betray one another. The Grimleal manipulates many events to implant the seeds of the world's evil into their mind. Any glimmer or hope that the child might see is quickly snuffed out when they see the evil behind the good. They see acts of kindness to be nothing more than hypocrisy.

And the final setting to cement their despair over humanity, when they reach a certain age, somewhere at like 10-12 more or less, the parent Hierophant fights their child in a battle to the death. They try to invoke all their anger, hatred, fear, and so forth in the fight, and ultimately makes the child kill them. Validar went through this and was forced to fight and murder his own father. When he realized what he did, and what his father tried to do to him, Validar's mind was shattered of all faith he might have possibly harbored for humanity, and that there was no such thing as goodness, and the world must be destroyed.

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And there we go. That is how some of the stuff that I think the Grimleal functions in, and how I want to present it into my fic. What do you guys think? If this was in the actual Awakening game, would it have made the Grimleal more understandable? Would this have made Validar more sympathetic?

Edited February 4, 2018 by omegaxis1

[Jingle Jangle]

Interesting, there is some good stuff you have here. I feel that there needs to be clarification of why the Grimleal hates Naga and why they will give themselves up to Grima?  I'll give bonus points if you can tell me Tharja, Henry, and Aversa's philosophy on the Grimleal. 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Interesting, there is some good stuff you have here. I feel that there needs to be clarification of why the Grimleal hates Naga and why they will give themselves up to Grima?  I'll give bonus points if you can tell me Tharja, Henry, and Aversa's philosophy on the Grimleal. 

Naga is the very reason that Grima was stopped 1000 years ago. Meaning that to the Grimleal, Naga is the enemy that caused the world to remain impure, to stop it from being cleansed of its evil. 

Henry isn't loyal to Grima by any means. He's just a kid that had his psyche destroyed by his way of being raised, and now he's psychotic. 

Aversa was brainwashed into serving Validar. 

Tharja is clearly of the minor faith, or perhaps is like Gangrel, and only paid lip service to the cult. She was more focused on her hexes, but meeting Robin made her sense the darkness that Grima has, and thus caused Tharja to develop an attraction to Robin. Or so I speculate.

EDIT: As for why they offer themselves, they feel that offering themselves up to Grima to be some form of noble act, in that they are helping their god. Or they believe that offering themselves will be Grima granting them salvation.

Edited February 5, 2018 by omegaxis1

[LucarioGamer812]

So I have a theory that concerns both the Grima Faithful and Duma Faithful. Spoilers for act 6 of Echoes

Spoiler

After Duma's defeat, the Duma faithful searched for a new god to worship. Alm did travel to Thabes and slayed Grima with the Valentian Falchion. Due to lack of supervision and seeing marks of battle they decided to align with Grima and wait for his return. Now Alm assumed he killed Grima when in actuality he just sealed him in the Valentian Falchion, after 1000 years (lines up with the end of the Alm dynasty and lines up with approximately when Naga gave Marth's descendant the power needed to seal Grima again (since without a god's blessing the sealed god will just stay in the sword) Grima came back, destroyed the Valentian Falchion (again Alm assumed he killed Grima so he didn't leave a message) and Grima started to take over before Naga intervened. The Duma faithful evolved into the Grima faithful and after it's defeat by Naga founded Plegia in the desert. I assumed Grima did destroy or at least heavily affected much of the economics and politics of Archanaea and besides legends little remained from prior times. So the Grima faithful would have likely occupied the remains of Khadein due to the high association with magic there. This would also show how Ylisse became a power and founded along with explaining the origin of all the other nations in Awakening.

I know it's a little loose and doesn't explain everything but I feel like it works.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

In that Grima is born from the darkness of humans themselves.

Spoiler

Actually Grima was created by Forneus's Alchemy in the thabes labyrinth, so it could be considered the darkness of man's heart, but as of Echoes that is Grima's origin

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by LucarioGamer812

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

So I have a theory that concerns both the Grima Faithful and Duma Faithful. Spoilers for act 6 of Echoes

  Hide contents

After Duma's defeat, the Duma faithful searched for a new god to worship. Alm did travel to Thabes and slayed Grima with the Valentian Falchion. Due to lack of supervision and seeing marks of battle they decided to align with Grima and wait for his return. Now Alm assumed he killed Grima when in actuality he just sealed him in the Valentian Falchion, after 1000 years (lines up with the end of the Alm dynasty and lines up with approximately when Naga gave Marth's descendant the power needed to seal Grima again (since without a god's blessing the sealed god will just stay in the sword) Grima came back, destroyed the Valentian Falchion (again Alm assumed he killed Grima so he didn't leave a message) and Grima started to take over before Naga intervened. The Duma faithful evolved into the Grima faithful and after it's defeat by Naga founded Plegia in the desert. I assumed Grima did destroy or at least heavily affected much of the economics and politics of Archanaea and besides legends little remained from prior times. So the Grima faithful would have likely occupied the remains of Khadein due to the high association with magic there. This would also show how Ylisse became a power and founded along with explaining the origin of all the other nations in Awakening.

I know it's a little loose and doesn't explain everything but I feel like it works.

Very interesting theory. However, the seal on Grima only seemed to work in Awakening after performing the Awakening ritual with the Shield of Seals. We know that the Shield of Seals is meant to seal away powerful entities, like the Earth Dragons. In that case, Grima was in fact not sealed away by the Valentian Falchion at all, as it was just a powerful weapon meant to defeat dragons. 

However, yeah, I agree on the case of Grima likely causing extensive damage, which might explain why society seemed to not have made that much progress by Awakening's time. Grima might have destroyed much knowledge that it set back progress a great deal. 

And the Duma Faithful moving onto becoming part of the Grimleal, or possibly its origins to be very unique as well.

EDIT: I'm talking about the belief of the religion. The Grimleal don't ACTUALLY know Grima's actual origins on him being a science experiment. The people of Jugdral thought Loptyr and Naga were gods, but they are in fact just dragons. They just believe that Grima originated from the darkness of humanity's hearts.

Edited February 5, 2018 by omegaxis1

[LucarioGamer812]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Very interesting theory. However, the seal on Grima only seemed to work in Awakening after performing the Awakening ritual with the Shield of Seals. We know that the Shield of Seals is meant to seal away powerful entities, like the Earth Dragons. In that case, Grima was in fact not sealed away by the Valentian Falchion at all, as it was just a powerful weapon meant to defeat dragons. 

However, yeah, I agree on the case of Grima likely causing extensive damage, which might explain why society seemed to not have made that much progress by Awakening's time. Grima might have destroyed much knowledge that it set back progress a great deal. 

And the Duma Faithful moving onto becoming part of the Grimleal, or possibly its origins to be very unique as well.

So what I meant by that is with a God's or divine dragons blessing the seal become more effective, and basically forces the one who is sealed to rebuild their flesh and powers from scratch, while without the blessing the divine weapons just temporary stops the being in question. It could also be an unique case that due to Grima's unordinary origin that the normal rules of divine weapons don't apply to him, which then makes Awakening's ending options seem more realistic. I'd like to also point out that a normal divine weapon shouldn't outright kill a god, we see this again in Echoes when Rudolf "kills" Mila. Her conscience is still around along with her power, so she sacrificed herself to make sure Alm had the power to defeat Duma (probably the last of her power before she truly died when Duma died) so that could also be part of it and would explain Grima's plotting nature. Other examples would include Marth not defeating Medeus until fully gaining all of Naga's power (full fire emblem and the Falchion which we can assumed has been blessed) as he has to defeat Medeus only 2 years after the previous defeat of him. Also for out of that universe example Tellius, Ike is only able to defeat Ashera with Yune's blessing/power. Another example is Roy basically needs every single divine weapon to stand a chance of stopping the dragons (which may bring up the point that with enough divine weapons it could be possible to kill a god but one divine weapon normally doesn't have that power, also weapons losing power such as Falchion losing it's blessings could be a factor)

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

So what I meant by that is with a God's or divine dragons blessing the seal become more effective, and basically forces the one who is sealed to rebuild their flesh and powers from scratch, while without the blessing the divine weapons just temporary stops the being in question. It could also be an unique case that due to Grima's unordinary origin that the normal rules of divine weapons don't apply to him, which then makes Awakening's ending options seem more realistic. I'd like to also point out that a normal divine weapon shouldn't outright kill a god, we see this again in Echoes when Rudolf "kills" Mila. Her conscience is still around along with her power, so she sacrificed herself to make sure Alm had the power to defeat Duma (probably the last of her power before she truly died when Duma died) so that could also be part of it and would explain Grima's plotting nature. Other examples would include Marth not defeating Medeus until fully gaining all of Naga's power (full fire emblem and the Falchion which we can assumed has been blessed) as he has to defeat Medeus only 2 years after the previous defeat of him. Also for out of that universe example Tellius, Ike is only able to defeat Ashera with Yune's blessing/power. Another example is Roy basically needs every single divine weapon to stand a chance of stopping the dragons (which may bring up the point that with enough divine weapons it could be possible to kill a god but one divine weapon normally doesn't have that power, also weapons losing power such as Falchion losing it's blessings could be a factor)

That's a very interesting way to put it. And you have some point in that regard. Of course, there's the case on how Rudolf wasn't seeking to kill Mila, but rather seal her away so that the catastrophe would occur where her blessings no longer work and crops begin to die. Of course, it could also be possible that before Rudolf could kill Mila, she instead sealed the blade into herself so that it wouldn't be used against her brother. But Mila passed on after she freed Falchion, meaning that Alm simply used Falchion with its own power to kill Duma. 

However, we could also consider that Grima was put to sleep or retreated a lot after the damage from the Valentian Falchion (technically speaking, Grima didn't have any divine protection that Duma did, so any weapon can actually kill Grima in Echoes), because Grima was not even at his full size. He was much smaller and younger, and likely hadn't reached the full power that he did in Awakening. I believe he got all this power from devouring the Earth Dragons. The Dragon's Table likely got that name because Grima ate all the Earth Dragons that slept underneath there. Would explain why the Earth Dragons vanished and why the Shield of Seals suddenly changed functions. 

[LucarioGamer812]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's a very interesting way to put it. And you have some point in that regard. Of course, there's the case on how Rudolf wasn't seeking to kill Mila, but rather seal her away so that the catastrophe would occur where her blessings no longer work and crops begin to die. Of course, it could also be possible that before Rudolf could kill Mila, she instead sealed the blade into herself so that it wouldn't be used against her brother. But Mila passed on after she freed Falchion, meaning that Alm simply used Falchion with its own power to kill Duma. 

However, we could also consider that Grima was put to sleep or retreated a lot after the damage from the Valentian Falchion (technically speaking, Grima didn't have any divine protection that Duma did, so any weapon can actually kill Grima in Echoes), because Grima was not even at his full size. He was much smaller and younger, and likely hadn't reached the full power that he did in Awakening. I believe he got all this power from devouring the Earth Dragons. The Dragon's Table likely got that name because Grima ate all the Earth Dragons that slept underneath there. Would explain why the Earth Dragons vanished and why the Shield of Seals suddenly changed functions. 

It is possible Mila did that but given it did revive Celica from Duma's control after it had been unsealed there was quite a good possibility that Mila gave it the last of her power.

That is true with Grima, so since it was a normal Falchion I still think Grima getting semi-sealed was likely

Spoiler

Because of his divine dragon blood and the Falchion being arguably the best weapon against him, not saying that any other weapon couldn't defeat him such as Gradivus or Mercerius or Parthia or Celica's Ragnarok Omega.

Grima consuming the Earth Dragons would explain his power levels that rival Naga and could have been the start of his conquest on Archanaea. Also possible origin

Spoiler

Leptyr, from Genealogy. Leptyr was basically a divine dragon or at least a powerful earth dragon like Medeus, and given Genealogy is supposedly set a few thousand years prior to Shadow Dragon/Echoes, that could be where Grima's divine dragon blood came from. Forneus was crazy after all. Also since we're talking about Forneus due to him feeding Grima his own blood, I'd imagine he'd had a son or daughter that took up his research and merged with the duma faithful into the grima faithful, continuing the bloodline until Validar and Robin and their respective Morgan.

 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

It is possible Mila did that but given it did revive Celica from Duma's control after it had been unsealed there was quite a good possibility that Mila gave it the last of her power.

That is true with Grima, so since it was a normal Falchion I still think Grima getting semi-sealed was likely

  Hide contents

Because of his divine dragon blood and the Falchion being arguably the best weapon against him, not saying that any other weapon couldn't defeat him such as Gradivus or Mercerius or Parthia or Celica's Ragnarok Omega.

Grima consuming the Earth Dragons would explain his power levels that rival Naga and could have been the start of his conquest on Archanaea. Also possible origin

  Hide contents

Leptyr, from Genealogy. Leptyr was basically a divine dragon or at least a powerful earth dragon like Medeus, and given Genealogy is supposedly set a few thousand years prior to Shadow Dragon/Echoes, that could be where Grima's divine dragon blood came from. Forneus was crazy after all. Also since we're talking about Forneus due to him feeding Grima his own blood, I'd imagine he'd had a son or daughter that took up his research and merged with the duma faithful into the grima faithful, continuing the bloodline until Validar and Robin and their respective Morgan.

 

Mila used the last of her powers to revive Celica presumably, since when Alm held Falchion, the orb on the center glowed when Mila spoke to him , indicating her consciousness was in the blade, but afterwards, she vanished, so she couldn't have remained any longer afterwards. 

Given how Grima's presence hadn't faded, its safe to say that semi-sealed is somewhat accurate here.

Dragons have a lot of quintessence, so Grima consumed all that to add to his own power. And Naga is called the most powerful Dragon in the world of Archanea. 

Loptyr, and he's an Earth Dragon, no idea on his connection with Medeus. Genealogy takes place about 1000 years before Shadow Dragon/Echoes. There's also the theory that Grima's spirit used his power to create his blood for a human to consume, thus creating a new blood pact for him to possess. 

[LucarioGamer812]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Mila used the last of her powers to revive Celica presumably, since when Alm held Falchion, the orb on the center glowed when Mila spoke to him , indicating her consciousness was in the blade, but afterwards, she vanished, so she couldn't have remained any longer afterwards. 

Given how Grima's presence hadn't faded, its safe to say that semi-sealed is somewhat accurate here.

Dragons have a lot of quintessence, so Grima consumed all that to add to his own power. And Naga is called the most powerful Dragon in the world of Archanea. 

Loptyr, and he's an Earth Dragon, no idea on his connection with Medeus. Genealogy takes place about 1000 years before Shadow Dragon/Echoes. There's also the theory that Grima's spirit used his power to create his blood for a human to consume, thus creating a new blood pact for him to possess. 

I guess what Mila does is up to interpretation but I honestly do think she gave Alm the last of her power as her chosen champion  as otherwise by the reasoning we've established wouldn't Duma have not died?

Yes Naga is, and wasn't she the most powerful of all the divine dragons? Since they did split to find their own continents/nations like with Mila and Duma. Also we do see Naga's influence on Judgral with Deirdre and Julia being marked with her mark and Julia using the book of Naga in particular. Seliph is also of that same blood which may allow him to wield Tyrfing which is basically another Falchion.

Loptyr that's it, I was close since I'm not the most familiar with Genealogy lore. I'd say 1000 years is a decent amount of time for Grima to have been sealed in Thabes. Well Loptyr could have been the source of Grima's initial blood while him consuming all the earth dragons and probably what remained of Medeus is what gave him such incredible power. While that blood pact is possible Forneus did help Grima grow with his own blood. It is possible that Grima made his blood drinkable so he could always exist but honestly either idea we've said could have happened.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

I guess what Mila does is up to interpretation but I honestly do think she gave Alm the last of her power as her chosen champion  as otherwise by the reasoning we've established wouldn't Duma have not died?

Yes Naga is, and wasn't she the most powerful of all the divine dragons? Since they did split to find their own continents/nations like with Mila and Duma. Also we do see Naga's influence on Judgral with Deirdre and Julia being marked with her mark and Julia using the book of Naga in particular. Seliph is also of that same blood which may allow him to wield Tyrfing which is basically another Falchion.

Loptyr that's it, I was close since I'm not the most familiar with Genealogy lore. I'd say 1000 years is a decent amount of time for Grima to have been sealed in Thabes. Well Loptyr could have been the source of Grima's initial blood while him consuming all the earth dragons and probably what remained of Medeus is what gave him such incredible power. While that blood pact is possible Forneus did help Grima grow with his own blood. It is possible that Grima made his blood drinkable so he could always exist but honestly either idea we've said could have happened.

Except Naga designed Falchion with the sole intent of it being used to kill Duma and Mila. So even without any extra assistance, Falchion would have killed them. Medeus "survived" those times because according to Gotoh, Earth Dragons boast an abnormally high life force, meaning that fatal wounds actually only puts them into a deep sleep, rather than just dying, and Medeus was extremely powerful. That might very well be why despite defeating the Earth Dragons, the Divine Dragons had to seal them away as opposed to killing them.

I said most powerful Dragon in general, not just the Divine Dragons, but yes. Also, Tyrfing requires the Holy Blood of the Crusader Baldur, as it was another dragon, presumably a Divine Dragon, that forged Tyrfing. However, it is theorized that Seliph may in fact be Marth's ancestor, since during the 1000 year gap, one of Seliph's descendants could have gone to Archanea and eventually had the two brothers Anri and Marcelus. This is due to Tiki commenting that Chrom resembles a man 1000 years before Marth. 

Grima was defeated though in Echoes, which takes place 1000 years after Genealogy, so the two incidents might not be connected. We have no idea when Grima actually came to be, but we do know that the Senate sealed Forneus, his Risen, and Grima in Thabes Labyrinth at some point. Though there's the possibility that Forneus got the thanatophagus from Jugdral, as the Lopto Sect had the 12 Deadlords, and the Risen can also be comprised of the 12 Deadlords as well.

[LucarioGamer812]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except Naga designed Falchion with the sole intent of it being used to kill Duma and Mila. So even without any extra assistance, Falchion would have killed them. Medeus "survived" those times because according to Gotoh, Earth Dragons boast an abnormally high life force, meaning that fatal wounds actually only puts them into a deep sleep, rather than just dying, and Medeus was extremely powerful. That might very well be why despite defeating the Earth Dragons, the Divine Dragons had to seal them away as opposed to killing them.

I said most powerful Dragon in general, not just the Divine Dragons, but yes. Also, Tyrfing requires the Holy Blood of the Crusader Baldur, as it was another dragon, presumably a Divine Dragon, that forged Tyrfing. However, it is theorized that Seliph may in fact be Marth's ancestor, since during the 1000 year gap, one of Seliph's descendants could have gone to Archanea and eventually had the two brothers Anri and Marcelus. This is due to Tiki commenting that Chrom resembles a man 1000 years before Marth. 

Grima was defeated though in Echoes, which takes place 1000 years after Genealogy, so the two incidents might not be connected. We have no idea when Grima actually came to be, but we do know that the Senate sealed Forneus, his Risen, and Grima in Thabes Labyrinth at some point. Though there's the possibility that Forneus got the thanatophagus from Jugdral, as the Lopto Sect had the 12 Deadlords, and the Risen can also be comprised of the 12 Deadlords as well.

Well maybe the Archanaean Falchion but the Valentian Falchion while similar could lack that effect. Also again power mitigating over time. The Earth Dragons did need to be sealed constantly but Grima probably consumed all of them as we discussed.

I don't doubt that Seliph could be related to Marth but as of what we know they are unrelated but simular. Also we could factor in Ike coming over from the Tellius outrealm which would explain the aether skill in the bloodline and kinda explain a long lost relative of Chrom possibly being Priam (since he is the descendant of Ike).

It could very well be unconnected but a possibility. All we know is that Grima was made of divine dragon blood and that he was created long before echoes as evident by the hundreds if not a thousand or two years of erosion and such that the Thabes Labyrinth was put through. We know this as the city was said to be ancient and Grima was sealed off by a magic shield (possibly some divine relic) and it all seems like the timing could fit. It is possible that in his studies Forneus did keep the spell to control the deadlords (especially if he had been to Judgral and acquired Loptyr's blood) and that could have been acquired by the duma faithful before or after they may have transitioned into the grima faithful.

 

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

Well maybe the Archanaean Falchion but the Valentian Falchion while similar could lack that effect. Also again power mitigating over time. The Earth Dragons did need to be sealed constantly but Grima probably consumed all of them as we discussed.

I don't doubt that Seliph could be related to Marth but as of what we know they are unrelated but simular. Also we could factor in Ike coming over from the Tellius outrealm which would explain the aether skill in the bloodline and kinda explain a long lost relative of Chrom possibly being Priam (since he is the descendant of Ike).

It could very well be unconnected but a possibility. All we know is that Grima was made of divine dragon blood and that he was created long before echoes as evident by the hundreds if not a thousand or two years of erosion and such that the Thabes Labyrinth was put through. We know this as the city was said to be ancient and Grima was sealed off by a magic shield (possibly some divine relic) and it all seems like the timing could fit. It is possible that in his studies Forneus did keep the spell to control the deadlords (especially if he had been to Judgral and acquired Loptyr's blood) and that could have been acquired by the duma faithful before or after they may have transitioned into the grima faithful.

Remember what Mila said, though. She made Falchion so that humans could put an end to Duma and Mila, so that they have a fighting chance. I honestly don't think that Falchion needed any extra boost to actually kill either Mila or Duma. Also, based on what has been learned, the blade of Falchion never wears, chips, not rusts, and is eternal, so its power would always be the same, except for how the Archanean Falchion's power due to its strength being sealed. And like I said, abnormally large life span. This also goes with the case of quintessence, as a large amount of quintessence means that you can heal from fatal wounds or just not die from said wounds. Medeus being the Earth Dragon prince must mean he must have been very powerful

I was merely going by what Tiki said. If Chrom resembles an ancestor of Marth 1000 years before Marth's time, it would have to be Seliph/Sigurd. Ike is a bit of an odd factor. 

This also begs the question as to who Forneus is. Previous lore indicated that humans of Archanea were very primitive, and lacked the magical abilities until Gotoh began teaching them. So would that mean that Forneus was a Manakete? Or was he one of the humans that were just more advanced than the other humans, with the Senate also being similar?

[LucarioGamer812]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Remember what Mila said, though. She made Falchion so that humans could put an end to Duma and Mila, so that they have a fighting chance. I honestly don't think that Falchion needed any extra boost to actually kill either Mila or Duma. Also, based on what has been learned, the blade of Falchion never wears, chips, not rusts, and is eternal, so its power would always be the same, except for how the Archanean Falchion's power due to its strength being sealed. And like I said, abnormally large life span. This also goes with the case of quintessence, as a large amount of quintessence means that you can heal from fatal wounds or just not die from said wounds. Medeus being the Earth Dragon prince must mean he must have been very powerful

I was merely going by what Tiki said. If Chrom resembles an ancestor of Marth 1000 years before Marth's time, it would have to be Seliph/Sigurd. Ike is a bit of an odd factor. 

This also begs the question as to who Forneus is. Previous lore indicated that humans of Archanea were very primitive, and lacked the magical abilities until Gotoh began teaching them. So would that mean that Forneus was a Manakete? Or was he one of the humans that were just more advanced than the other humans, with the Senate also being similar?

Well we're just assuming divine weapons need additional power to slay gods. Did she outright kill the gods or combat the gods? Cause if it's combat it could mean just mean sealing. Though all of this could all be wrong for what we know.

I feel like in personality Chrom matches Sigurd but I don't think Sigurd ever met Tiki so Seliph is an possibility. The only reason I brought in Ike was aether and his radiant dawn ending along with the outrealm gates being present in awakening.  All we definitely know of the the royal family tree is Anri, Marth's father, Marth marrying Caeda, his sister Elice, then later Chrom, whoever he marries (for "canon" reasons lets say Sumia), Lissa, whoever she marries, Emmeryn, Lucina, Cynthia (by the Sumia option), Owain, Male Robin (who is the "canon" Robin and marries Lucina), and by that extension Morgan.

This honestly is raising more questions that need an explanation. I'd say Forneus was human and so was the senate. They could have possibly been the precursors to the divine dragons (which could explain that Alchemy that created Grima also created the divine dragons) and have been long before any game in the timeline. Though that is just a unlikely possibility.

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, LucarioGamer812 said:

Well we're just assuming divine weapons need additional power to slay gods. Did she outright kill the gods or combat the gods? Cause if it's combat it could mean just mean sealing. Though all of this could all be wrong for what we know.

I feel like in personality Chrom matches Sigurd but I don't think Sigurd ever met Tiki so Seliph is an possibility. The only reason I brought in Ike was aether and his radiant dawn ending along with the outrealm gates being present in awakening.  All we definitely know of the the royal family tree is Anri, Marth's father, Marth marrying Caeda, his sister Elice, then later Chrom, whoever he marries (for "canon" reasons lets say Sumia), Lissa, whoever she marries, Emmeryn, Lucina, Cynthia (by the Sumia option), Owain, Male Robin (who is the "canon" Robin and marries Lucina), and by that extension Morgan.

This honestly is raising more questions that need an explanation. I'd say Forneus was human and so was the senate. They could have possibly been the precursors to the divine dragons (which could explain that Alchemy that created Grima also created the divine dragons) and have been long before any game in the timeline. Though that is just a unlikely possibility.

Who knows. It's always questionable on these types of things. Medeus is a unique case as he's above other Earth Dragons and clearly much more powerful, so additional power might have been needed. But Duma's body was decaying, so his one is more debatable. 

Not that Tiki was even awake at this time, as she was forced to sleep since Naga feared her degenerating and killing off the human race. So she never met Sigurd or Seliph. And if Marth is a descendant of Sigurd, this includes Seliph, since the latter is Sigurd's son after all. But they never went too far into these kinds of details. But it might also potentially explain how easily Marth wields Falchion. If him and Anri were both descendants of Seliph, they would possibly have Naga's blood in them. Of course, the FIrst Exalt basically makes the bloodline far more official. 

Of course it does. You add in backstory to something, there's gonna be a bunch more questions that comes from it. And yeah, this is the first time that alchemy is mentioned, as opposed to magic.

[Køkø]

21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Everyone that played Awakening must have seen the Grimleal cult, and were likely VERY disappointed by how it was. Unlike other Fire Emblem series that held religion, such as Genealogy's Lopto Sect, and Tellius series religion that talk of Ashera, the Grimleal is a religion in Awakening that wasn't fully explored. Even the Duma Faithful were explored a bit in Echoes.

But we hardly know a thing about the Grimleal, what sets it apart, and so on.

My fic has the intention of exploring some of the stuff, and about two of the three things I'll say did get explained and explored. But I want to hear your opinions regarding it, and what you think about it.

1) Teachings:

The Grimleal was founded under the worship of Grima. However, what Grima is depicted as differs depending on what form of faith you have. If you are of the minor faith, which makes up the majority of the religion, Grima is a god that exists to punish the non-believers, and protect the faithful.

However, the Major Faithfuls, the one that are the fewer in the religion, know something deeper. In that Grima is born from the darkness of humans themselves.

Here're a few quotes I have Validar speak in my fic where he explains it in:

To the Major Faithfuls, Grima is a sign that the world must start over. The entity where humanity has evolved in all the wrong ways, and that the world must start over by ending humanity. This is what the religion believes. And anyone that tries to fight against that are the most vile creatures, as they are trying to prolong the suffering of the world.

2) What defines the Minor and Major Faithfuls?

Simple, knowledge. You must study extensively on the customs and ritual of the religion. Afterwards, when you prove yourself, you are given the chance to ascend to the Major ranks. However, the reason these are so few is because the ritual for it is brutal. In there, the person has the Brand of the Defile burned onto their backs using a burning hot iron branding tool. Naturally, such a thing is incredibly dangerous, and if the pain does not kill you, the possible infections and damage to the skin could. After you receive the brand, you get treated almost immediately, but many die during recovery.

But the ones that manage to survive, they are able to read the encrypted grimoires and have access to major knowledge about the religion, and even attain a great deal of wealth and political power, and some even attain some more ancient and powerful tomes to learn more powerful magic to grow stronger.

This test is mandatory, but the person are informed of the risks, making sure that the dangers are very clear to them. If they accept, it shows true dedication to the cult, if you're willing to put your life on the line and scar yourself for life, it shows.

3) The Hierophants:

Obviously, the Hierophant or the leader of the Grimleal obviously MUST have Fellblood in them. But exactly what makes the person want to serve Grima? What sort of brainwashing did they go through? Or rather, what did Validar go through for him to want to end the world? And would this have also been Robin if he/she remained in the cult, rather than be spirited away by their mother?

Well, it basically is that the Fellbloods are taught to utterly hate the world. They are raised to believe that the world is truly vile and should be eradicated. This is done by making the child see the cruelties of mankind, from the war ravaged areas, to how bandits attack helpless citizens, and even see how people betray one another. The Grimleal manipulates many events to implant the seeds of the world's evil into their mind. Any glimmer or hope that the child might see is quickly snuffed out when they see the evil behind the good. They see acts of kindness to be nothing more than hypocrisy.

And the final setting to cement their despair over humanity, when they reach a certain age, somewhere at like 10-12 more or less, the parent Hierophant fights their child in a battle to the death. They try to invoke all their anger, hatred, fear, and so forth in the fight, and ultimately makes the child kill them. Validar went through this and was forced to fight and murder his own father. When he realized what he did, and what his father tried to do to him, Validar's mind was shattered of all faith he might have possibly harbored for humanity, and that there was no such thing as goodness, and the world must be destroyed.

--------

And there we go. That is how some of the stuff that I think the Grimleal functions in, and how I want to present it into my fic. What do you guys think? If this was in the actual Awakening game, would it have made the Grimleal more understandable? Would this have made Validar more sympathetic?

I can only repeat what I said last time. This actually makes me look at the Grimleal in a different light, it's a shame that they're actually nothing more than a lazy Loptyr Cult reference. When is this fanfic of yours going to be complete? If the rest is as good as this, I can't wait to see your take on Awakening's other plot elements.  

Why do you think Grima is evil in the first place?

 

 

 

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I can only repeat what I said last time. This actually makes me look at the Grimleal in a different light, it's a shame that they're actually nothing more than a lazy Loptyr Cult reference. When is this fanfic of yours going to be complete? If the rest is as good as this, I can't wait to see your take on Awakening's other plot elements.  

Why do you think Grima is evil in the first place?

I have only 3 chapters posted up. I'm working on the 4th, but a tad stuck on it. I'm not planning on the fic to be too long. ONly wish I had the aptitude to really work on it without laziness kicking in. 

As for why I think Grima is evil, I think its simple. Grima was created by a madman. The dark ambitions that he had, the experiments that Grima might have gone through over the 80 days he had since his creation before he was given Forneus' blood, and being trapped underground for so long, it might have caused Grima's mind to be warped. Also, Forneus might have filled Grima's mind on the idea that he was perfect, that he was the greatest and all others were beneath him. 

IN some cases, he's like Cell. 

Actually, Awakening's story is a LOT like DBZ's Android/Cell arc. Time travel, multiverse theory, perfect being that follows behind the time traveler, foiled by his own hubris, etc.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 2/4/2018 at 8:43 PM, LucarioGamer812 said:

It could very well be unconnected but a possibility. All we know is that Grima was made of divine dragon blood and that he was created long before echoes as evident by the hundreds if not a thousand or two years of erosion and such that the Thabes Labyrinth was put through.

Are you really sure about this? Gharnef hid in Thabes for his final confrontation in Shadow Dragon and had already placed Elice there some time ago, possibly years. You'd think the Dark Pontifex would be able to sniff out any potential enemies or allies, including Grima if they were somewhere in the city. This is the guy who helped bring back Medeus only to later plot to betray him.

 

Overall, a pretty well written and nuanced take on a fictional religion that blends concepts taken from real ones. The Grimleal aren't totally evil in this depiction either- just a more extreme life-denying form of religion, which is a normal thing. Buddhism says being attached to this empty world is suffering, although some Buddhists are pretty passionate about the world in spite of this and while still being very devout. The best way to world build better is to read more history, philosophy, political science, biology, geography, economics, sociology, psychology, religion, etc. if you ask me.

[omegaxis1]

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Are you really sure about this? Gharnef hid in Thabes for his final confrontation in Shadow Dragon and had already placed Elice there some time ago, possibly years. You'd think the Dark Pontifex would be able to sniff out any potential enemies or allies, including Grima if they were somewhere in the city. This is the guy who helped bring back Medeus only to later plot to betray him.

It's possible that Gharnef hadn't unlocked all the mysteries in Thabes. Grima's power was likely blocked out by the seal that the Senate had placed on Thabes. Of course, it could simply be a retcon. 

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Overall, a pretty well written and nuanced take on a fictional religion that blends concepts taken from real ones. The Grimleal aren't totally evil in this depiction either- just a more extreme life-denying form of religion, which is a normal thing. Buddhism says being attached to this empty world is suffering, although some Buddhists are pretty passionate about the world in spite of this and while still being very devout. The best way to world build better is to read more history, philosophy, political science, biology, geography, economics, sociology, psychology, religion, etc. if you ask me.

Mhm. Of course, the actions they do are evil, but to them, they envision that they are doing the right thing, and that by having Grima perform a genocide on the human race, Grima will just help restore the world by recreating it again. All while unaware that Grima will do no such thing and will slaughter everyone for shits and giggles.

[Arthur97]

On 2/4/2018 at 8:56 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Remember what Mila said, though. She made Falchion so that humans could put an end to Duma and Mila, so that they have a fighting chance. I honestly don't think that Falchion needed any extra boost to actually kill either Mila or Duma. Also, based on what has been learned, the blade of Falchion never wears, chips, not rusts, and is eternal, so its power would always be the same, except for how the Archanean Falchion's power due to its strength being sealed. And like I said, abnormally large life span. This also goes with the case of quintessence, as a large amount of quintessence means that you can heal from fatal wounds or just not die from said wounds. Medeus being the Earth Dragon prince must mean he must have been very powerful

Quick note on Falchion, for all we know, the power drain was a natural occurrence. We don't know if the Valentian Falchion would have retained its full power. After all, Naga is still a dragon, albeit a really powerful one, and dragons do eventually die. So, Falchion which is made from her fangs, might decay in a sense gradually and needs a recharge every few thousand years.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Quick note on Falchion, for all we know, the power drain was a natural occurrence. We don't know if the Valentian Falchion would have retained its full power. After all, Naga is still a dragon, albeit a really powerful one, and dragons do eventually die. So, Falchion which is made from her fangs, might decay in a sense gradually and needs a recharge every few thousand years.

Not really. It was stated that Falchion's blade never dulls nor rusts. The magical attributes that went into the blade's creation ensured that it would last an eternity. 

Quote

Owain: Heh! All right. I'll speak, and you can practice translating... Hark! Your partner fang resists the remorseless arrow of time! It is infused with the breath of gods and the passion of ages. Should a thousand years pass, it shall never know the red sleep!
Lucina: That one is simple. Falchion's blade will never dull or rust no matter how much time passes.
Owain: But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.
Lucina: Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and the pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

I doubt that Naga would have made the Valentian Falchion any different, since it was meant to ensure that when the time came that humans needed it, Falchion would be ready. 

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. It was stated that Falchion's blade never dulls nor rusts. The magical attributes that went into the blade's creation ensured that it would last an eternity. 

I doubt that Naga would have made the Valentian Falchion any different, since it was meant to ensure that when the time came that humans needed it, Falchion would be ready. 

It doesn't rust, and it may not dull depending on how much of it's strength is magic based. Besides, people love to embellish. Like how they think Naga is a deity despite the fact she told them otherwise. They have false pretenses about Naga, they could very well have them about Falchion.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

It doesn't rust, and it may not dull depending on how much of it's strength is magic based. Besides, people love to embellish. Like how they think Naga is a deity despite the fact she told them otherwise. They have false pretenses about Naga, they could very well have them about Falchion.

This would normally be correct. But Falchion remained with all its power for thousands of years. in fact, the only reason that Falchion "weakened" by Awakening is because its powers were sealed, hence why Chrom's Falchion is called "Sealed Sword Falchion" in the Japanese version. But when the Awakening is performed, the powers are fully restored again. 

Furthermore, despite how Naga died, the case remains that Naga's will never seemed to have gone. We have Nagi that seems to indicate to be Naga's incarnation, and by 1000 years before Awakening, Naga somehow returned. This is where I had another thread a while ago, where I explained why Grima cannot kill Naga, in that it goes back to quintessence, and how even after death, Naga's will remained with her quintessence, and thus became part of the world, and she continued to live on through that. In some ways, Naga achieved a form of immortality. 

[Arthur97]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This would normally be correct. But Falchion remained with all its power for thousands of years. in fact, the only reason that Falchion "weakened" by Awakening is because its powers were sealed, hence why Chrom's Falchion is called "Sealed Sword Falchion" in the Japanese version. But when the Awakening is performed, the powers are fully restored again. 

Furthermore, despite how Naga died, the case remains that Naga's will never seemed to have gone. We have Nagi that seems to indicate to be Naga's incarnation, and by 1000 years before Awakening, Naga somehow returned. This is where I had another thread a while ago, where I explained why Grima cannot kill Naga, in that it goes back to quintessence, and how even after death, Naga's will remained with her quintessence, and thus became part of the world, and she continued to live on through that. In some ways, Naga achieved a form of immortality. 

A case might be made that even when Marth used it it had lost some of it's power since it was as strong as a silver sword, and I think Chrom's was stronger once awakening.

As for Naga, I doubt it. It seems more likely that it's a title. The manakete equivalent of King/Queen. For one, Tiki never refers to Naga in Awakening as her mother. Maybe Naga is Nagi who inherited the title, but we may never know. It is also important to note that there is record of a male Naga which further lends credence to this theory though there is the alternative that the depiction was really of Naga's chosen hero or whatever you want to call him. Also of note is how Tiki essentially did this in future past.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Arthur97

[omegaxis1]

31 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

A case might be made that even when Marth used it it had lost some of it's power since it was as strong as a silver sword, and I think Chrom's was stronger once awakening.

As for Naga, I doubt it. It seems more likely that it's a title. The manakete equivalent of King/Queen. For one, Tiki never refers to Naga in Awakening as her mother. Maybe Naga is Nagi who inherited the title, but we may never know. It is also important to note that there is record of a male Naga which further lends credence to this theory though there is the alternative that the depiction was really of Naga's chosen hero or whatever you want to call him. Also of note is how Tiki essentially did this in future past.

The gameplay mechanics of Falchion is different for each game. Chrom's Falchion had a might of 5 in Awakening, but in the Fates DLC, it had 6. Not to mention that every Einherjar version of Marth can wield every form of Falchion. Not to mention that now Marth's Falchion in the games are all being referred to as Exalted Falchion, which Chrom only wielded when he performed the Awakening.

Well for one thing, Tiki never met Naga face to face, not even once. No supports in New Mystery either. And Tiki cannot be with you at the time of recruiting Nagi. So Tiki referring to Naga as mother is not that out of place really. Naga was not really that much of a parent to her anyways. 

Nagi is heavily implied to be Naga due to the titles that she gets, in both Japanese and English. 

• "Divine Dragon King's Incarnation" (Holy Avatar in the English)
• "Revived Divine Dragon King" ("Deity Reborn" in the English version)

Medeus even speaks to Nagi at meeting her in Shadow Dragon, showing familiarity, talking about how she is also a revived dragon. This heavily implies that Nagi is in fact Naga.

Also, the case of gender is that humans are the ones that mentions Naga as male which could easily have been misinterpreted, since they also depicted Naga wielding the Shield of Seals that wasn't forged until after the Earth Dragons were defeated.  The other dragons have used gender neutral terms when talking about Naga, and "King" is also gender neutral in Japan. After all, we know for sure that when Naga appeared as a human in Jugdral, it was as female. And now in the English series at least, Naga seems to have been canonized as female that banished Duma for Echoes. 

I am not denying the case of Naga being a title inherited, but it seems like Naga's power running through the land itself implies that Naga's quintessence is tied to her will, and even when she is physically killed, she doesn't truly die. I mean, despite being "killed" by Grima in Future Past, her spirit for some reason was able to remain and summoned Chrom and the others. And then Tiki even said that Naga's power in Mount Prism simply transferred from there to Ylisstol due to Mount Prism now being defiled, and Tiki's corpse being in Ylisstol.

Tiki assuming the role of Naga seems to be more her inheriting the power that left behind before Naga could revive herself, which would have taken too long, and by then, Grima would destroy the world, and Naga would have permanently died.