Transforming units?

[IEatLasers]

What do you want to see in terms of transforming units? 

 

Theres the ines with stones and can transform every turn 

or Laguz like units who need to charge to turn 

 

or do you have other ideas! 

 

What animals?

 

I want a ? 

[Flee Fleet!]

I think I'm fine with what we got, but I guess I would like to see some units transform into a snake, or some sea animal (but I guess that would work in chapters with water),

 

[Winged Hussar]

I want to see some units transform into bears or even elephants (if the setting is appropriate).

[redlight]

I'd like to see bears, sharks and eagles.
Units who can transform can use weapons that their tribe uses. They can only transform on certain terrain. Bears only on grass, plain, forest and riverside tiles. Sharks in river, lakes, ocean and sea. Eagles above valleys, chasms, cliffs and mountains.

Edited February 5, 2018 by silveraura25

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm not so gungho about trying new animals just because they haven't been done before. On the other hand, going back to birds or tigers would give us a hernia in trying to piece together the lore implications of laguz tribes existing outside Tellius. 

On the whole I'm bothered by transformations being a magical poof. I'd like to see them go full body horror. Like in this scene (timestamped). I can imagine a sssccchluuurp sound as the wings retract into the body. Furthermore, I don't understand why, in non tellius games, transformation units unmorph and remorph every time they enter combat. Seems like it would take less energy to stay morphed. They should at least stay morphed for enemy phase, it's redundant for battle animations to be slowed down because they keep re-morphing.

Assuming a game that has two or more tribes of transformation units, definitely try to make them varied in some way. For instance, in Fates, the Kitsune should have been magic attackers. Part of the real life kitsune lore was always their proficiency in magic and illusions, but Fates is just like "They're foxes, so they move and attack like foxes". Boring. Ironically, the wolfskin are my favorite transformation units because they look and sound like contextual monsters. And werewolves are cool.

[Jotari]

As far as transformations go, the only thing I really want to see is a return of Xane's class, Chameleon. Not only is it a neat gameplay idea, but there's a well of untapped potential there for plot points and world building. Just imagine if Chameleons were an established species in the world. You'd never quite know if the person you're talking to is the real deal or an imposter.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

As far as transformations go, the only thing I really want to see is a return of Xane's class, Chameleon. Not only is it a neat gameplay idea, but there's a well of untapped potential there for plot points and world building. Just imagine if Chameleons were an established species in the world. You'd never quite know if the person you're talking to is the real deal or an imposter.

I'd be iffy on the plot points.

It has some good potential. Plots where assassinations and such fail, people critical to the plot fake their own deaths to deliberately hiding to plot in secret, imposters driving the plot in unseen directions, etc. These things could work if well written.

But I suspect plot implications of Chameleons would amount to "Haha, you thought I was dead but I wasn't!" in the most basic senses. It'd just end up having people constantly question if the character that just died is truly dead, or if the game will cop-out later.

If they were MORE prevalent in the plot, I think it'd have to be at most like, 2 in the story. You'd have to be able to keep track of every single Chameleon. I think it would have to be a limited resource in the story.

I do think more dragons with the abilities of Xane would be neat for gameplay, though.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'd be iffy on the plot points.

It has some good potential. Plots where assassinations and such fail, people critical to the plot fake their own deaths to deliberately hiding to plot in secret, imposters driving the plot in unseen directions, etc. These things could work if well written.

But I suspect plot implications of Chameleons would amount to "Haha, you thought I was dead but I wasn't!" in the most basic senses. It'd just end up having people constantly question if the character that just died is truly dead, or if the game will cop-out later.

If they were MORE prevalent in the plot, I think it'd have to be at most like, 2 in the story. You'd have to be able to keep track of every single Chameleon. I think it would have to be a limited resource in the story.

I do think more dragons with the abilities of Xane would be neat for gameplay, though.

Every cool plot idea is going to be a double edged sword of good and bad execution. And IS's more recent attempts at story telling would certainly lean more towards bad executions, but a guy can still dream.

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Every cool plot idea is going to be a double edged sword of good and bad execution. And IS's more recent attempts at story telling would certainly lean more towards bad executions, but a guy can still dream.

I am right there with you. I want the best from IS, but they haven't exactly built confidence with their recent efforts.

[SavageVolug]

I thoroughly enjoyed the Laguz from the Tellius games, they were a lot of fun to use. One of the things I liked about them was because they needed to charge up in order to transform they truly felt like a werewolf type unit which is a sensation that I don't get in Awakening or Fates. Another thing that I liked was transforming had more advantages than just better stats, it gave them higher movement for traversing the map, better vision during Fog of War battles similar to thieves in that respect, characters such as Kurthnaga could fly when shifted (something that I was dissapointed Nah, Tiki, and Nowi couldn't do). Additionaly you could grant a kill skill on non royal laguz by merrit of the Satori Signs which you get quite a few of, something else that the Tellius games did better with their shifters. They also had their own Refreshers and due to the variety in types of Shifters and number of them it felt like there was an entire Nation of Shifters. This is something that the games that have tried to re-do the laguz concept fail on, because you only get one or two Shifters it doesn't feel like there's a Kingdom of other shifters, we're TOLD that there is but there is no evidence to affirm this. Where it feels more like just happening upon an individual who happens to have this magic ability of turning into a beast but otherwise is no differant from the rest of the army.

Bottom line I would like IS to go back to the Laguz concept with a few addittions. 1) When unshifted they can still attack without being attacked 2) more Laguz exclusive skills some of them can even be parrallel to the regular skills. (e.g. maybe a skill called Beast's Vigor that functions like Renewal) 3) Refreshers can restore the status of the Energy Bar either as a passive ability if standing close enough to Laguz or maybe a paticular staff 4) Laguz who get strong enough should learn the Formshift skill 5) Maybe give the Laguz stone more uses and perhaps it automatically activates if an unshifted Laguz is attacked with this in their inventory.

In regards to types of Shifters I would like to see Wolves, Lions, Tigers, Eagles, Herons and Cats again but make ALL the Cats viable not just one of them. (Actually it would be really cool if the Cats could steal thus giving you extra thieves) In Addittion I think the only type of Shifter that I can think of would be Bears maybe Bats too but that's mainly because I like both bears and bats. And of course Dragon Shifters, but this is Fire Emblem we're talking about there is ALWAYS going to be Dragons. Besides to quote BlazingKnight from youtube "Everything is better with dragons".

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

But I suspect plot implications of Chameleons would amount to "Haha, you thought I was dead but I wasn't!" in the most basic senses. It'd just end up having people constantly question if the character that just died is truly dead, or if the game will cop-out later.

Reminds me of Xenoblade Chronicles X, Definians- which can disguise themselves as practically anyone- never appear in the main plot. However Definians appear a lot in the sidequests, and while there is nothing wrong with them getting their own sidequest subplot, they're thrown in a little too casually at times, which is poor writing for sidequests that tend to have good-ish stories.

 

If IS wants to go all out with non-dragon shapeshifters again, make sure their place in the world is well built. Also, make sure a good number have some from of 1-2 range, the killer issue with Laguz besides the transformation gauge in PoR and RD. Maybe make Laguz Stones a little more commonplace too, there was like 2 of them in all PoR.

 

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind more Corrins in the sense of a human with some shapeshifting powers but not defined by it. Just make sure it is still integrated well into the world though.

[Gebby]

I don't like beast units, I'd prefer if they were absent.

[MCProductions]

Bring back FE3 styled Manaketes, fuck I'd even take the less fun Tellius take on it at this point. I could care less what they transform into, but having the dragon/beaststone behave like a normal weapon in of itself is just boring to me

[Hawkwing]

I would personally like to see porcupines so we can finally get characters with spiky hair and quill mustaches/beards as I'd think they would make excellent defense units. Snakes would also be cool to see.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Taguel returning, as they were the only part of Awakening where I actually cared about the worldbuilding and I wish we got more details about. That, an I enjoy that I can unironically love something as ridiculous as a warrior race of shapeshifting killer bunnies. I'm not holding my breath, however.

Gameplay-wise, I haven't played the Tellius games (yet) so I can't give an informed opinion about how I would like transformation to work. I do, however want shapeshifting units to use weapons upon promotion. I would also like to see separate classes so the difference between each unit is greater than "they can transform into a bird and are really fast" or "they can transform into a cat and are a nice tank." They wouldn't need to go overboard, as I wouldn't mind if they had something like fighter (focus on sterength and defence), skirmisher (focus on speed and later ranged weapons), and/or rouge (basically thieves, but a bit more varied in their uses), along with some unique classes (such as bombardier for flying units, or perhaps a circus performer).

As for the Xane unit, I honestly wouldn't mind if they used transformations similar to the MS-DOS game ShadowCaster, and instead of simply copying a class, the unit would transform into a creature that would serve said classes basic function, but with an extra purpose. For example, copying a myrmidon would turn the xane unit into a Kapha (see spoiler), which would hit fast and hard, but they would also have the ability to swim in water tiles without trouble and use electricity attacks, or copying a healer or thief would turn them into a Cuan, serving the function of both and having excellent speed but having downright bad health. Using an example not from the game, copying a knight could turn them into a walking suit of armor for example, increasing both defense and resistance. Of course, they wouldn't blatantly plagiarize this game, but it would be nice if they used this train of thought. 

For an example (best I could find, since the game is so damn obscure):

Spoiler

Screen Shot 2018-02-05 at 10.50.31 AM

(I really like shapeshifters in fiction, so I really want IS to get creative with them.)

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

How Awakening/Fates(moreso with additional stone and can promote) handled it the best never liked the Laguz method. Manakete? definitely pre fates as for animal my most wanted desire is a Bat, Bear and/or Snake!!!!

Edited February 5, 2018 by Blade Lord Lyn

[thecrimsonflash]

I don't really care what they are, but I would like to see a return to the fe3/tellius form of handling transforming units, I feel like there is so much more that can be done having a unit transform on the map rather than just having them transform at the start of combat, kurthnaga (or all tellius dragons for that matter) is the best example of this with him becoming a flier when he transforms, not to mention, there are numerous other things that could be done with it like make it so that when untransformed a manakete does not have the dragon weakness make using these units actually feel like something unique not just "physical/magical attacker who is not affected by triangle #42", not to mention how stupid it is for the enemy to politely wait for the unit to transform before attacking, any magical girl anime at least has the excuse of "It's actually instantaneous we just see it really slowed down", but not here, every second counts and even 2 seconds is more than long enough for a swordmaster to get a quick potshot in.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind more Corrins in the sense of a human with some shapeshifting powers but not defined by it. Just make sure it is still integrated well into the world though.

funny you should mention that, because that is one of the main reasons why I hate corrin, there are so many lost opportunities with corrin regarding that dragon form, almost immediately after corrin gets the dragon form it is thrown away in exchange for making him just another lord with a glowing sword and corrin's dragon form is never used again it just feels like a waste, I think it could have made corrin much more interesting of a lord if that power defined him. Though I can agree with regular shapeshifters using normal weapons when untransformed, I think it would go quite nicely with the fe3/tellius mechanics if you used them in that context.

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I would like for them to take a rest. Let's just have it like Gaiden/SoV, or the Jugdral Games, or Blazing Sword, where we had none. Or just the token dragon transformation (but perhaps with more variety on who is the token dragon unit) of the Archaneia games, Binding Blade, and Sacred Stones.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I want neither. I want to see transforms with:

1) Lore on the level of the Laguz.

2) Always transformed in battle.

3) Geared with armor, metal claws, or other such beast gear. 

4) Treat them like more conventional units, but with unique strengths and weaknesses depending on what they are.

[Ae†her]

I want them to be able to transform at will. It doesn't make sense why they are their own race of animal-like creatures, but they can't naturally be in their animal forms. Beaststones and Dragonstones should just amplify their power.

I specifically want to see a return of Lion-like Laguz because they're just so damn cool. Laguz should deal bonus damage against all animal riders, and if that's too broken then I would like to see the following instead:

a) Land-locked Laguz/Transformers are effective against land animal riders.

b) Airborne Laguz/Transformers are effective against Pegasi, but not against Wyverns and Griffins.

c) Sealocked Laguz are effective against anything that comes into the water, and can come out on to land for 2 Turns. Sealocked transformers is also something we have yet to see.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Ae†her

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

c) Sealocked Laguz are effective against anything that comes into the water, and can come out on to land for 2 Turns. Sealocked transformers is also something we have yet to see.

I think the problem here is that you'd have to include significant quantities of water to make this work. And given a majority of FE units are landlocked, this would be difficult. And how would one justify it plot-wise? Pirate FE?

It reminds me of Advance Wars, FE's dead pure strategy sister. Making a balanced land-air battle work is easy and expected to be the normal for battles. Naval units have had a really hard time trying to make it in. Partly because naval units cost so much more than land and aren't as mobile as the price comparable (slightly less actually) air units. This is not an FE issue since units aren't bought, but AW also has issue with making sea fronts important without being the end all of the map.

You can make the sea fight secondary to the land, but this will only be fought for at all if the only Airport on the map or a bunch of Missile Silos (which once used are useless and hence the naval fight would be short lived), happened to be accessible only by sea. And if you make sea the main part of any fight, its hard not to say you've won once the enemy's ports navy is destroyed, their ports can be controlled, and they're otherwise only able to fight on their spat of land. The landing and eradication of the enemy tends just to be tedium. It is hard to find a happy medium in sea fronts. And this could apply to FE if not handled well, though I think FE has a better chance of handling the naval useless-too important issue than AW does.

And without anti-flier and other balancing measures in full effect, why bother bring one-trick sea ponies to a water fight when fliers fight well over all terrain?

I won't say there is no hope for sea shapeshifters, but it would have to be carefully though out.

 

8 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Though I can agree with regular shapeshifters using normal weapons when untransformed, I think it would go quite nicely with the fe3/tellius mechanics if you used them in that context.

In my younger years, I imagined a Raven who in defiance of Laguz norms, used a Sword unshifted besides their beak and talons when shifted. In this vein, I'd give the Hawks Lances, Tigers can take Axes, and Cats Knives and or Bows. Not sure what to give Dragons, and Herons getting Light might break their peacefulness unless they had perma Mercy, while Staffs would make them a little too good vs. Mist and Rhys. Capping their weapon ranks at C might be somewhat balancing though- they would still have weaker stats unshifted too.

I haven't played FE3, but its approach to dragons sounds good. A minimum of 5 full turns (and a 50% chance of 15 with a 20 Luck Tiki if I'm looking at things right) of decent tankiness with 1-2 range dealing singular, but strong Def piercing hits while being immune to the Breath Def pierce of other Dragons on paper seems incredible. 18 uses per Dragonstone, with the ability to buy a couple more in Book 2, even if they're really expensive, is plenty for an efficient player able to accomplish the bulk of a battle's work in ~5 turns.

Does the random unshift happen at the start or end of a player phase? The former is good, the other makes every turn after 4 seem risky to end with your Manakete in enemy ranges on.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Ae†her said:

c) Sealocked Laguz are effective against anything that comes into the water, and can come out on to land for 2 Turns. Sealocked transformers is also something we have yet to see.

This has "bad idea" written all over it... Such a unit would be useless for most, if not all, maps in a given game.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think the problem here is that you'd have to include significant quantities of water to make this work. And given a majority of FE units are landlocked, this would be difficult. And how would one justify it plot-wise? Pirate FE?

This, I would not be opposed to at all. And it's notlike we'd need to make our water monsters completely sea locked. They could be like pirates. Perfectly able to walk around on land and sea. Meaning you can deploy and train them on all maps. Only inversely to pirates, they'd have a lower movement on land and a higher movement in the water. Imagine rescue convoying a character up a river to get to the otherside of the map in a trek that would otherwise take a dozen turns (of course that still wouldn't solve the fact that fliers can do the exact same thing as you pointed out, but liberal, though not excessive, use of Ballistia could sort that out, like in Thracia).

[Ae†her]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

This has "bad idea" written all over it... Such a unit would be useless for most, if not all, maps in a given game.

I really don't want it to be real, but I just like the idea of it. If anything I just mentioned it to try and make my first two ideas of beast effective damage clearer.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Ae†her said:

I really don't want it to be real, but I just like the idea of it. If anything I just mentioned it to try and make my first two ideas of beast effective damage clearer.

And I think the execution would flop HARD.

Anyways, I'm okay with what we got. That is, as long as they don't revert back to the BS of having them limited in usability like Fae and Myrrh were.

On February 5, 2018 at 8:27 AM, SavageVolug said:

I thoroughly enjoyed the Laguz from the Tellius games, they were a lot of fun to use. One of the things I liked about them was because they needed to charge up in order to transform they truly felt like a werewolf type unit which is a sensation that I don't get in Awakening or Fates. Another thing that I liked was transforming had more advantages than just better stats, it gave them higher movement for traversing the map, better vision during Fog of War battles similar to thieves in that respect, characters such as Kurthnaga could fly when shifted (something that I was dissapointed Nah, Tiki, and Nowi couldn't do). Additionaly you could grant a kill skill on non royal laguz by merrit of the Satori Signs which you get quite a few of, something else that the Tellius games did better with their shifters. They also had their own Refreshers and due to the variety in types of Shifters and number of them it felt like there was an entire Nation of Shifters. This is something that the games that have tried to re-do the laguz concept fail on, because you only get one or two Shifters it doesn't feel like there's a Kingdom of other shifters, we're TOLD that there is but there is no evidence to affirm this. Where it feels more like just happening upon an individual who happens to have this magic ability of turning into a beast but otherwise is no differant from the rest of the army.

Bottom line I would like IS to go back to the Laguz concept with a few addittions. 1) When unshifted they can still attack without being attacked 2) more Laguz exclusive skills some of them can even be parrallel to the regular skills. (e.g. maybe a skill called Beast's Vigor that functions like Renewal) 3) Refreshers can restore the status of the Energy Bar either as a passive ability if standing close enough to Laguz or maybe a paticular staff 4) Laguz who get strong enough should learn the Formshift skill 5) Maybe give the Laguz stone more uses and perhaps it automatically activates if an unshifted Laguz is attacked with this in their inventory.

In regards to types of Shifters I would like to see Wolves, Lions, Tigers, Eagles, Herons and Cats again but make ALL the Cats viable not just one of them. (Actually it would be really cool if the Cats could steal thus giving you extra thieves) In Addittion I think the only type of Shifter that I can think of would be Bears maybe Bats too but that's mainly because I like both bears and bats. And of course Dragon Shifters, but this is Fire Emblem we're talking about there is ALWAYS going to be Dragons. Besides to quote BlazingKnight from youtube "Everything is better with dragons".

No way. The way IS handled laguz in the Tellius saga was far from a confidence builder, ESPECIALLY in RD.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[god_ewan]

I would like to see beast units that specialize in one or two stats. For example a turtle like beast that has superior health and defenses but low speed and movement. Falcons that have superior skill and speed and low defenses. And bears that have superior strength and attack and average other stats.