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I've seen a few tier lists for Lunatic and hard mode no grind (because grinding makes anyone good or correct until lategame).

I think some units are overrated while some are underrated.

S tier:

- Sumia: while she has the speed to double in hard mode when she joins, she's another chip unit for a good while before reaching her owerspike for like 2 chapters and then becomes a staff/rally bot or support. I don't see why she should be S tier since her placement is really hard to optimize as a flying unit and she won't get reclassed into a foot unit for long if you don't ant to loose too much mobility/start over from level 1 with no mobility at all or no weapons (if reclassed before promotion). She can make a fast GK etc. but in no grind, feeding her 23 levels of exp to get rally speed seems a bit of a waste while with avatar you have a free rally spectrum with more bulk and rally needs bulk except if you can position the rally bot outside of ennemies' range (lol most maps are like you're in the middle and 25 ennemies circle you by turn 3 with wind mages and archers). So I'd put her high B-rank because her mobility is good but she needs hell of a bias to get anywhere close to middle A-tier.

- Olivia: as a dancer she has a useful skill. But same problem as Sumia: squishy AF so she needs to never be in ennemies' range not to die, she won't ever see combat as a dancer in no grind, she won't be able to dance very often (not even 10x per map so less than 1 level up per map meaning she's even more OHKO food for ennemies without any natural avoid skills (+4 luck isn't an avoid skill)) and like I explained above ennemies surround you in most chapters with a few ones having ranged weapons and the old rescue mechanic gone to put her even more behind because if she get hit she's dead (no miracle for dancers sadly it would be much more useful than their useless luck +4 and a medium-level single target rally on dance, especially luck +4 in a game where 4 luck means 2 avoid LOLOLOL so damn useless) and she starts...at level 1 with awful bases (while in TSS the dancer started with some workable def/res and good growths in it with wonderful avoid and growths in avoid stats, like 80/70% in speed and luck and 50+ in res) and nearly 0 HP since 18 means OHKO by anyone from chapter 11 to epilogue. with terrain bonuses halved for most of them she can't even benefit from forests to dodge anything (10 avoid instead of 1 def 20 avoid in a game with 140 hit rate ennemies LOL this game's design is killing me). So yes dancer is useful but Olivia in Awakening is just not that good of a dancer and joins too late to even reach level 15 before ending and she will get killed by anything that get close to her, even a mid-late game thief/trickster.

- Lon'zu: why is he S-tier? I don't know, his only good point is joining with a killer sword which can be used by any other sword unit who got exp even before he joined and who reached higher strength/defence and maybe even speed and skill if the unit got blessed (or just Chrom since he has the same speed, skill, 2x Lon'zu's strength and 2.5x his def, a bit more res and 2x more luck around level 12 at this point). Lon'Zu will never get enough strength to be ORKOing any ennemy in late game if the crit/astra doesn't activate (which happens a bit too often sometimes and tends to apply several times in a row), he can dodgetank: yes and no. In no pair up runs try to make him and his 60-ish avoid dodge the 140+ hit rate ennemies (even avoid +10 makes it 70ish avoid it lets them have around 70% hit so no dodgetank isn't the solution for that) and he's as squishy as swordmaster Olivia (which I use often for a swordfaire Lucina). It's like playing luntic + FE:TSS with squishy chip units. I know it doesn't exist but if it existed you wouldn't want to use any swordmaster to clean it since even in normal difficulty swordmasters need godly strong weapons to ORKO anything with medium def in no grind runs (so strength not capped in unpromoted AND promoted classes most of the time). I didn' see anyone even arguing about his reclassing options. Wyvern has too many weaknesses for no grind runs (and no swords) and thief isn't supposed to be a combat class.

A tier:

- Sully: she can be worthy of it as well as be screwed by RNG especially in early level ups. Mine just got her 2 first level ups to be +1HP +1luck and +1HP +1strength. She didn't raise her def for like 5 levels, her strength and def got locked at 8-9 until level 8 and her speed struggled to blow up from the start. Finally she got saved by 2 excellent level ups (as in everything ecept magic and res went up) and then she found her way to 17 speed and average everything else. She is a semi-myrmidon cavalier with less speed/avoid/skill than a myrmidon and less bulk than an average cavalier so she doesn't want to get screwed by RNG or else she's good to be benched since her start is the moment when she can get strong or completely left behind. Myrmidon cuts her from 2 move and some bulk and lance use so it's not really nice on a no pair up run (I mean he unit isn't self-sufficient which A-tier is for).

-Lissa: your first healer, balanced shitty growths can pull her up to Libra's level 1 pre-promote base stats when she's 20/1 warmonk or she can be a more magic-oriented staff bot sage with more survivability than Miriel (miracle from level 1 saves her from B-tier). She has good reclass options for support but in no grind wamonk or sage is all she needs.

- Anna: I don't see why she's A-tier and Libra B to C-tier. I'll write about him later. She has no combat prowess and is not by any means self-sufficient, she has good mobility but struggles to move to chests by herself without getting killed so she needs more of a mobile turtle tactic. Past turn 7 she looses 20 avoid and hit (so if you plan on taking all the reinforcements be careful she won't be able to dodgetank like pre-turn 7). She doesn't have any rally in her thief classes.

- Frederick is a must have in early game in lunatic, he's a good pair up partner in hard, he can chip ennemies to feed kills to noob units until Stahl and Kellam catch up with him (around chapter 6-8). He's needed in early game in no grind runs and he's a must in no pair up runs since your units loose their +4 def or speed precious bonuses from pair up. He's not going to see late game mainly because if his growths seem better than Stahl's on paper, I've never or close to never seen a Frederick be as good as Stahl (even as 20/20 in any class from level 1 GK) so he won't bump to S tier but he is useful AF for a challenger's early game.

- Maribelle: LMAO this unit should go down to high C tier: she won't ever see any combat as her bases and unpromoted growths lead her to be the worst unpromoted unit in the game (worse than Ricken), she doesn't learn the skill which gives +5 healing power on staves in her base class and has to go for 10 more unpromoted with -2 move to get this and miracle which she doesn't start with either (making her even worse at taking a hit than level 1 Lissa when she joins) and even when promoted she isn't worth it. I still prefer using Miriel in a no grind no pair up run than using Maribelle while I'm asking myself if I should just promote Miriel before level 20 to get staves and reroll sage as many times as I have to for her to have correct stats. Maribelle can be useful in grind runs bu in no grind she's like her kid, but worse, not even able to promote for 7 levels and D-rank in staves when Lissa is already C in no grind and even more in grind runs (maybe A lol). And she can't move more than 2 tiles in the desert, 3 chapers before reaching 2 desert chapters in a row (XD so useless) without having base access to ranged staves and with terrible range on them (just before recruiting Libra, pre-promote who doesn't require any stat booster, can move in the desert like it's home, has more stats near everywhere than level 20/1 Maribelle and C axes and C base rank staves).

B tier:

- Stahl: people often discuss about Stahl's tier, his speed means he's not able to be the MVP of the game though. He's a slow-starting Frederick who replaces him on the long run as the mobile tank of the army. He chips well, he's accurate enough to hit most of the time with >=80% hit weapons, not so reliable with lower hit rate weapons. I would put him to A-tier because he has no match for what he does (Kellam has less mobility untill reclassed thief level 10 or promoted into GK and he looses on some growths as a GK like res and maybe skill) and he has the best availability for a tank, having time to get to his powerspike by chapter 7 (maybe 6 if you managed to replace Fred by Stahl or if unlike me you didn't force yourself to use Miriel). And his GK promotion gives him the best tank weapon: the axe. Why the axe? Because sword users don't hit as hard as lance/axe users so he's better with a weapon that gives him +10 avoid and -1 damage from lances and neutral advantage against axes. Cuz' yes, his avoid kind of sucks.

Libra: He heals as much as Anna, has more bulk, miracle, level 15 he has sustain each turn (so can use miracle again if needed), he has a rally even if it's not the best, he has combat utility with ordinary weapons unlike Anna who needs rare weapons to be of any utility in figts and joins with a killer axe so he can take a few ennemies down in his joining chapter if you want. He's rarely in danger because of his solid bases and he pees on 20/1 Maribelle in any stat except luck and maybe speed. All his classes are useful even for combat unlike Maribelle with awful bases awful growths (most of the time she's worse than Lissa at level 20 unpromoted).

Virion: depending on how you use him (and how much too) he can be a better Miriel or a wyvern knight or straight to bow knight for extra movement and bowbreaker. He can also be benched without hurting your army. B rank is fine, I just wanted to remind he's not only an archer but also a mage and wyvern rider (like Panne but she's faster than him and stronger too).

Gaius: B is where I put him: useful for early chests in a game that stupidly didn't provides keys for chests most of the time, Gaius is one of the slowest starting combat units. Better go with anyone else rather than him for combat, even Vaike is more salvageable thanks to his availability lead while Gaius comes underlevelled with iron swords only and gutter fighting stats. Even his speed is subpar by the time he joins (many ennemies have as much as him as fighting units lol and myrmidons are faster than him). Without reclassing/promoting he won't even get fighting skills to help his crappy start and thieves can't even steal anymore so...what's the point of keeping this class?

Zelcher: some people bias her, but even if I like her style (except the maid thing in her outfit it's just good for frustrated otakus who go in maid cafes to feel loved or respected for money) I admit that her base level is too low to be good. If she came at level 16 she would probably be better (especially her base speed) but anyways her class set in totally absurd with one physical offensive base class and 2 magical support classes with only 1 hybrid and 0 physical promotion. She doesn't even get bowbreaker or tomebreaker so she's left behind by IS because she can't tank effectively in the Valm arc AND late game where there are archers and mages with each sort of tomes in every chapter. As a support she's probably the balance between Libra and Maribelle, and it's not a good thing, because from Libra she has physical bulk and combat ability as a warmonk while from Maribelle she has shitty magic, bad magic bases and worse growths than Maribelle.

Cordelia: I think she deserves low A-tier: she has mercenary's bases and growths but with higher res than mercenaries and she can reclass into mercenary, so her flyer class isn't forced onto you. Even if she's not a great magic user, she has access to dark mage, which should be considered before putting her into B-tier.

Gregor: His bases are correct, he's C-rank in swords and comes with a steel sword. He's usable, but he's an all-rounder, the type that Stahl's supports define as average in everything, good or bad in nothing. His Strength is correct, his skill is average (especially for his class which should have just a bit less skill than archers), his speed is average (like Stahl's but Stahl is more mobile without skills and should have gained much more levels than Gregor when this one is recruited), his def is average, his luck is average, his res is the same shit as any physical unit and he has average tank HP.

Nowi: awful bases, awful growths (Myrrh would be ashamed by her weakling baby), 6 move locked dragon (saved by 1/2 ranged weapon), limited weapons until chapter 12 (like Panne in her original form), reclassing options aren't really amazing. No sol access and life drain is on player phase.

Henry: awful base speed, other base stats are about the same level as Zelcher with more rounded stats. His class set makes up for his crappy base speed, he's a dark mage who can open chests while nosferatanking. In no grind run, he's too late to be reclassed into thief but in grind runs he's very useful for gold digging, treasure hunting and all this without being hurt by anything. But in no grind he's in the low B-tier because he comes way too late and his combat is even worse than Zelcher due to ennemies having much more speed than him (in no pair up run he's garbage you can probably let him die to slow the bottom ennemies while you rush to the top to slaughter the boss before getting subjugated by the waves of ennemies while being attacked from archers from the hills).

Say'ri: considering her bases, the economy of a master seal and her immediate access to B-swords, she comes just in time to be used. Her hard difficulty bases are better by 1 point everywhere and 2 HP than her normal bases, which you can't say about Lon'zu and she has more rounded defensive stats. She also has wyvern reclass option which I already talked about, but she has pegasus instead of thief, which is more suited for support/combat. Still Say'ri is best used as a swordmaster or assassin and dodgetanking without pair ups and infinite stats potions /stats boosters isn't the best idea in this game for a no grind. But if you want a swordmaster, she can make you save exp on Lon'zu for other units (because no pair-ups=supports don't really affect your efficiency in combat and by no pair ups I mean units aren't supposed to dual-strike either, old classic way, except for trio attacks like pegasi in TSS or the brothers in POR/RD) so that you can level up anyone who you like instead (if you have a bias you can give Lon'zu's exp to your bias). I see Lon'zu vs Say'ri as Edward vs Zihark. The first can surpass the latter but odds are RNG and anyway without support bonuses it's the same so why would you give tons of exp to someone just to get him to the same level than the other and waste items and this exp pool?

Miriel: a weaker version of FE:TSS's Lute: good magic (but not capping without grinding or bias), bad skill (or mediocre if you're blessed), medium speed to double slow units, bad defence while Lute had often around 14-17 defence without any items (similar to Awakening's hard difficulty 24 or so defence) and Lute benefitted from better terrain bonuses and lower ennemy hit rate coupled with better early to late game avoid even as a pure stat (not taking hit rate into account). Same subpar res for a magical unit (like a natural swordmaster's defence) she's like Say'ri with tomes. Her reclassing options save her from being benched from the start as sorcerer and dark knight can make up for her shitty bulk, but she's still better off as a staff bot sage.

Tiki: never recruited her 'or maybe in normal grind so long ago that I don't even remember. A better version of Nowi, with solid bases unlike her baby version and with better growth rates. She is hard to recruit and has the same problems as Nowi for reclass options. B+ because a good manakete is always useful but her availability, paralogue with tens of flyers spawning everywhere and rushing towards her like exponential growth zombies towards the exit but you have to protect her for the whole time while not dying yourself to ennemy waves (litterally waves, like tsunami of ennemies). It's the Fire Emblem: Prepare to die edition. Better take her spotpass character who has access to all classes and costs around 17k (and access to dragonstone+ is nice) but it's forbidden in no grind+no pair up.

Basilio: very late, usable bases (at least he can rally strength) and saves you from using Gaius or Vaike for this purpose. Not really useful in fights in no grind and even less in no pair up but his rally is even better in no pair up since it makes up for the absence of support bonus stats. If you give him 5 level ups he learns counter, take it if you want. His reclassing makes him better at tanking and general gives him rally defence.

C tier:

Flavia: the speedy version of Basilio without rally strength and with better res (still you won't throw her into walls of ennemies either since she has too low defensive stats for it). Can replace Anna for late game chest hunting if you can make her gain the 9 thief levels to go to trickster/assassin in 1 or 2 skirmishes but in absolute no grind she's just a replacement for the crazy ones who play in classic no reset if they lost...Gregor maybe? XD he's the only one she could replace exactly or even surpass for the same class level without reclassing. I like her character design, her impossible love with Basilio (the 1st black man I've seen in a Japanese artwork without the big lips or the colossus black American body guard stereotype, maybe he's a mixed-blooded with some white people lol as Flavia doesn't have such a dark skin and she's blonde), but she's hardly salvageable at this point of the game, she comes 5 chapters too late to be really good. She could be upper if she had ore availability...

Overall late characters:

If you want to plainly use late game/underlevelled joining characters like Henry, Tiki, Basilio and Flavia, just force yourself into the challenge "no grind, no reclass" and eventually "no pair up" and why not "no reset" for peope who don't mind loosing units due to a random 2% crit rate ennemy (that also means your Chrom can die to the boss in prologue due to 6% crit rate so you're gonna restart the game from the prologue XD good luck on no reset).

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I think Ricken may be a little underrated. I heard a lot about what a bad unit he's supposed to be but I used him and he was consistently usable throughout the entire game. He wasn't my star player or anything but I never felt he was a burden either. 

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I concur that Ricken is underrated. I found him perfectly usable throughout the game, contrary to all the claims otherwise. On the other hand, I'd say Tharja is overrated. Her low skill and luck tend to lead to missing at inopportune times, and she isn't durable enough to make up for the fact that she's prone to eat random critical hits.

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I'm talking of no grind, he's bad because his speed is hardly higher than knight!Kellam's and Kellam has 10 more defence than him to compensate for that. Kellam has instant access to javelin (he already has one) and he can chip ennemies for the others, then he can get fed a few kills around chapter 7-8 to keep going before you promote him to raise his move and stats (or second seal to change his class). Cordelia is not a great pegasus like Sumia but she makes a good mercenary and has quick access to second seal (bonus item or chapter 8) and she makes a sol+pegasus healing skill bruiser with level 10/1 mercenary comparable to Gregor's but with higher exp gain, more speed (at least from spd +2), more skill, more res and res growth and she's fine to stay in this class line forever or take bowbreaker then reclass into pegasus for flying killer with her only weakness being wind magic.

Ricken has aegis and luna from cavalier set but not enough skill to rely on them. He has rally skill, hit +20, bowfaire and bowbreaker from archer set (only rally skill and bowbreaker are useful for a lategame unit and hit +20 is just a temporary fix to his low skill) so finally the only class really good for him is his starting class in which he competes with Libra, Nowi, Virion, Miriel, Tiki and Anna and everyone of them beats him head on, he's just the worst unit in any of his class sets.).

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Maribelle is a mounted healer without need to reclass, that comes early and already can wield Mend. Those facts alone make her a top tier unit. Her stats have nothing do with her place in the tier.

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For Tharja, she lacks skill but you have a skill tome from chapter 6 thatno one should need except her, she has access to other tomes than nosferatu for usual mage role and nosferatu is enough for her to tank wyverns and such annoying high mobility early game ennemies, outside of them she doesn't need it instantly. Her def is still higher than any cannon mge by this point and her speed is quite similar to Miriel, meaning she has Miriel+Ricken's good points as a magic unit without their own weaknesses except skill (and the last time I used her she ended up having around 14-15 skill at level 20 dark mage so I'm not too concerned about that). If you find her def too low she has knight, general, GK, dark knight and sorcerer to fix it so I'm not worried about that either.

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Maribelle is just an early game temporary healer with the worst performance of the game in terms of stats and her base class is simply bad with trash skills, no weapon, trash base stats, trash growths, no skill helping her trash magic to heal people (while Lissa heals 20+ around level 10 with E staves and has already reached C-rank by the time you get Maribelle), and Maribelle needs C-staves and physic to be of any use because unlike Lissa she can't take one physical hit from the start so her mobility on normal terrain isn't a real advantage since for he 2 chapters you would want her to move she's stuck with 2 tiles moves on 50% of the map from your starting point to when there aren't any ennemies moving on their own anymore and in the only chapter you can use her movement you are stuck to defend a stupid NPC who's gonna die anyway for nothing (just for being too kind). And chaper 7 Maribelle has to stay far away from the danger zone which is 80% of the terrain she can cross to survive because there are so many ennemies coming from all sides.

Libra replaces Maribelle in chapter 9 and outperforms her in any way possible in any class you want him to go through. In no grind run it's not even a point to discuss (in no pair up she will never see any combat anyway even if she's going falcon knight she's just a staff bot forever)

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29 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Maribelle is just an early game temporary healer with the worst performance of the game in terms of stats and her base class is simply bad with trash skills, no weapon, trash base stats, trash growths, no skill helping her trash magic to heal people (while Lissa heals 20+ around level 10 with E staves and has already reached C-rank by the time you get Maribelle), and Maribelle needs C-staves and physic to be of any use because unlike Lissa she can't take one physical hit from the start so her mobility on normal terrain isn't a real advantage since for he 2 chapters you would want her to move she's stuck with 2 tiles moves on 50% of the map from your starting point to when there aren't any ennemies moving on their own anymore and in the only chapter you can use her movement you are stuck to defend a stupid NPC who's gonna die anyway for nothing (just for being too kind). And chaper 7 Maribelle has to stay far away from the danger zone which is 80% of the terrain she can cross to survive because there are so many ennemies coming from all sides.

Libra replaces Maribelle in chapter 9 and outperforms her in any way possible in any class you want him to go through. In no grind run it's not even a point to discuss (in no pair up she will never see any combat anyway even if she's going falcon knight she's just a staff bot forever)

Remember what I said? Her stats doesn’t matter, her skills doesn’t matter, all she need is her horse and a Mend staff, and she’s good to go. She doesn’t even care much about Physic because of her high mobility, and her low defense won’t matter if she’s not going to see combat. She already a good unit by the fact the she’s an early game Troubadour. This holds true for the entire FE series, unless it’s a late game unit, any Troubadour is a good unit by virtue of being a Troubadour.

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30 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'm talking of no grind, he's bad because his speed is hardly higher than knight!Kellam's and Kellam has 10 more defence than him to compensate for that. Kellam has instant access to javelin (he already has one) and he can chip ennemies for the others, then he can get fed a few kills around chapter 7-8 to keep going before you promote him to raise his move and stats (or second seal to change his class). Cordelia is not a great pegasus like Sumia but she makes a good mercenary and has quick access to second seal (bonus item or chapter 8) and she makes a sol+pegasus healing skill bruiser with level 10/1 mercenary comparable to Gregor's but with higher exp gain, more speed (at least from spd +2), more skill, more res and res growth and she's fine to stay in this class line forever or take bowbreaker then reclass into pegasus for flying killer with her only weakness being wind magic.

Ricken has aegis and luna from cavalier set but not enough skill to rely on them. He has rally skill, hit +20, bowfaire and bowbreaker from archer set (only rally skill and bowbreaker are useful for a lategame unit and hit +20 is just a temporary fix to his low skill) so finally the only class really good for him is his starting class in which he competes with Libra, Nowi, Virion, Miriel, Tiki and Anna and everyone of them beats him head on, he's just the worst unit in any of his class sets.).

Ricken stuff: I can sum up the mention of Kellam with one phrase: Apples and oranges. Also, I'm not seeing how he loses to Virion when he (Virion) needs 8 levels and a Second Seal just to... fail to outclass Ricken by any real margin. Tiki comes pretty late. Nowi wouldn't be any better.

Cordelia stuff: Sol isn't all that and a bag of chips. Relief is only 20% HP for not having any units around (ally or enemy).

33 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

For Tharja, she lacks skill but you have a skill tome from chapter 6 thatno one should need except her, she has access to other tomes than nosferatu for usual mage role and nosferatu is enough for her to tank wyverns and such annoying high mobility early game ennemies, outside of them she doesn't need it instantly. Her def is still higher than any cannon mge by this point and her speed is quite similar to Miriel, meaning she has Miriel+Ricken's good points as a magic unit without their own weaknesses except skill (and the last time I used her she ended up having around 14-15 skill at level 20 dark mage so I'm not too concerned about that). If you find her def too low she has knight, general, GK, dark knight and sorcerer to fix it so I'm not worried about that either.

3 extra hit isn't much. And as for "annoying high mobility enemies", I'd consider it a better move to send Frederick or Stahl to stop them than to pray Tharja doesn't whiff with Nosferatu (it only has 65 base hit) or eat a critical hit. While her defense is higher than the other mages, that doesn't mean as much as it would since she's at risk of critical hits. Oh, and I don't see why you're bashing Ricken's class set and now turning around and singing the praises of Tharja's class set...

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That's why I anwsered you she isn't more usable than Olivia because map design in made to screw squishy units by encirclement from every direction and many flyers. Flyers have more mobility than her, she's doomed by latest promotion since she isn't made to be fighting so she will have 7 move when ennemies start to have 8 on small maps with encirclement (try to use Maribelle in chapter 12, you're better off just leaving her in base since she will only die since there are many ennemies with 8 move and ranged weapons that your main units can't ORKO by then in no grind no pair up and maybe even in no grind pair up except if you use all your time ferrying Chrom to kill them with rapier if he can actually double them which isn't automatic, and the cavaliers and paladin are close to you so they're an immediate threat for an unpromoted team, it is unlikely that you gave enough exp to one of your units to reach level 20 and promote, and early promotions only serve to create more Fredericks). 60% of the game if not more is made for you to rush to one group and kill it before you get encircled, in no grind this will often not be possible from turn 1, so some ennemies can reach your fragile units. If you just turtle around them (like the tactic I'd use for Tiki's paralogue) you need 8 units to be at 1 tile away from your protected unit if you have only one, and it means ennemies will crash against the wall so the wall can be broken and you loose combat units instead of the protected one. And this can only protect 1 units from ranges weapons (the one in te center). Units like Maribelle aren't relieving you from a lift by being here, they are adding more difficulty if you don't want them to be cut down and you can deploy one less offensive/defensive unit to put a risky support that won't even contribute that much.

It's not FE: TSS or FE: BB or any old FE, it's skill emblem, sustain emblem, undying units emblem. Lissa and Libra and maybe Anna (and Miriel if you raised her) can do the staf bot work while the others are stomping ennemy front lines and if 1 or 2 ennemies are left behind they can take care of it without dying. Maribelle is dead weight for the army from chapter 9. A healer who needs to put herself in death situation to heal correctly 40+ HP units isn't an asset, it's a flaw. A squishy healer who can't heal 25+ HP from a distance isn't useful for the team since your units doing the risky job (like chipping berserkers or sages) need to be healed properly right after they moved.

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Tharja has better use in her base class than Ricken, she can go forward without dying to the 1st ennemy with 15 speed, she has as much or more defence as Ricken depending if he goes sage or dark knight, she has no real skill problems since even missing once won't lead her to instant death unlike him (well anyway he can't even nosferatank at all) and when she hits with nosferatu it's 10 HP recovery minimum on most of the ennemies. Do you really want me to make a summary of why lunatic is a breeze with a team of nosferatanks or can you go search it by yourself on any Internet resources about this game? Casual and pro players can win the game easily with nosferatanks because they tank and heal themselves for the amount they loose each time they get hit (don't forget the sorcerer's skill adding the damage you just took to your total damage for more healing or more ORKO).

Tharja uses this build well and from the beginning. And unlike Ricken or Miriel she can play on EP without getting ORKO so she can hit/kill/miss more ennemies. So she levels up faster and she ends up with a 5-10 levels lead on them if you let her do her job without favoriting others. That's the exact reason why I don't play her, she's too gamebreaking (like any nosferatank) and without nosferatank why using her over another tanky unit that has access to magic classes?

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as for "annoying high mobility enemies", I'd consider it a better move to send Frederick or Stahl to stop them than to pray Tharja doesn't whiff with Nosferatu (it only has 65 base hit) or eat a critical hit.

Lol Frederick and Stahl have 7 move at this point. And they have less than 14 speed so they can't double. And they have no flying mounts unless you reclassed Frederick into wyvern stuff (loosing all the interest of his pre-promote status with bulk and chip). How do you want hese 2 to kill 2 to 4 wyverns in one turn (a few of them being ranged) without being able to ORKO a single one by themselves? wyverns can't be body blocked the way cavaliers can, you have to bring 4 people and do it far from hills to block them, or you're just the one being trolled since they will use the hill to say goodbye to your failed body block using 3 units for nothing. All this for 1 wyverns. And there are wyverns on any hill fort spawning on different spots depending on the turn, and your Stahl and Freddie (which should not be over level 5 if you didn't waste a shit ton of exp into him) won't be able to kill the wyverns spawning and chase the thieves/clear the way for thers to do it at the same time. Your units can play once, not 2 or 3. And Olivia will never refresh them if they've moved 7 tiles away from her 5 move tile on top of exposing her to death if she tries to follow them.

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23 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Lol Frederick and Stahl have 7 move at this point. And they have less than 14 speed so they can't double. And they have no flying mounts unless you reclassed Frederick into wyvern stuff (loosing all the interest of his pre-promote status with bulk and chip). How do you want hese 2 to kill 2 to 4 wyverns in one turn (a few of them being ranged) without being able to ORKO a single one by themselves? wyverns can't be body blocked the way cavaliers can, you have to bring 4 people and do it far from hills to block them, or you're just the one being trolled since they will use the hill to say goodbye to your failed body block using 3 units for nothing. All this for 1 wyverns. And there are wyverns on any hill fort spawning on different spots depending on the turn, and your Stahl and Freddie (which should not be over level 5 if you didn't waste a shit ton of exp into him) won't be able to kill the wyverns spawning and chase the thieves/clear the way for thers to do it at the same time. Your units can play once, not 2 or 3. And Olivia will never refresh them if they've moved 7 tiles away from her 5 move tile on top of exposing her to death if she tries to follow them.

What chapter are you talking about? Or are you making this up as you go? Anyway, I'm not intending for them to kill them (but if they do, all the better), just to lure them in so I can eliminate them on my turn.

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4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

If you want to plainly use late game/underlevelled joining characters like Henry, Tiki, Basilio and Flavia, just force yourself into the challenge "no grind, no reclass" and eventually "no pair up" and why not "no reset" for peope who don't mind loosing units due to a random 2% crit rate ennemy (that also means your Chrom can die to the boss in prologue due to 6% crit rate so you're gonna restart the game from the prologue XD good luck on no reset).

Why is Chrom even facing a 6% crit chance here? +Spd/-Skl (or any non-Luck bane, really) Robin can fight at range with a rank-3 support (no pair-up required, since she can stand two tiles below the boss with allies on every non-threatened adjacent tiles) without fearing getting doubled or crit on Lunatic. Below that, you have leeway to take a different boon/bane combo. Alternatively, Fred can survive getting crit if he's at full HP, allowing him to soften up the boss for someone else to kill.

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I'm speaking from personal experience, and not from whether or not a unit is good statistically.

Overrated:

  • Tharja: As much as I like that she's a mage that can take a hit, she's a bit too inaccurate for my liking. Not to mention that Robin, Miriel, and Ricken (and later Laurent) all surpass her magical ability by the time she joins.
  • Nowi & Nah: I would like them... if their stats didn't start out in the single digits and they had to rely soley on their Manakete bonuses to be viable in combat. This makes reclassing them a pain when they fall behind due to not being able to gain any promotion bonuses in their default class.
  • Sumia: She can dodge and double anything. Damaging (or heck, even scratching) something is another story entirely (I occasionally have the same problem with Cynthia. Key Word: Occasionally).
  • Gerome: Even when Cherche is paired up with someone with high skill, I can never get him to hit anything reliably, and is strength was always suppar. I blame Cherche's late (well, compared to every other first generation parent besides Henry, that is) appearance and my lack of skill in building up support points between two units quickly.

Underrated:

  • Panne: She can dodge reliably on normal and to a lesser degree hard difficulty, and the fact that she has no place in the weapon triangle is a double-edged sword. However, she really shines in reclassing, as she doesn't rely as strongly on the Taugel bonuses as the Manates are, and she can easily cap strength as a wvyren rider (and really, having three weaknesses isn't that huge of a drawback if you play prudently).
  • Chrom: It may be just because he's forced to be in every level, but I make sure to use in in the front lines in every battle. The result is that he could probably legitimately solo the game after a certain point (which, granted, is nothing special in Awakening, but still), and that Aether is the only skill he actually needs.
  • Ricken: He's not stellar, but he's not bad either. He was always an average yet useful unit for me in every playthrough.
  • Laurent: I find Miriel easy to pair up, so he always appears early when child units start appearing with an extremely high magic stat, and I personally find him very easy to support with Lucina (to the point that LaurentXLucina is the only ship in the game I personally declare canon (or the only thing I ship, period)).
Edited by Hawkwing

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

What chapter are you talking about? Or are you making this up as you go? Anyway, I'm not intending for them to kill them (but if they do, all the better), just to lure them in so I can eliminate them on my turn.

Chapter 10 (my next chapter on my no grind no pair up run) anyway I'm not using Tharja or children (I haven't decided yet whether or not I'll use Lucina) in this run since I forced Miriel into this run even if I don't like her. People told here and there that if you used her she could be a good magical unit to have around but in my challenge she's just a future staff bot since she's too squishy to ever see the front line. She's 15:65 mage at this point with 6 def and 10 res, 3 or 31 HP (only salvageable defensive stat) and I won't throw any stat booster to make this girl catch up with the others since she can't catch up at all even with +2 in every stat.

1 hour ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Why is Chrom even facing a 6% crit chance here? +Spd/-Skl (or any non-Luck bane, really) Robin can fight at range with a rank-3 support (no pair-up required, since she can stand two tiles below the boss with allies on every non-threatened adjacent tiles) without fearing getting doubled or crit on Lunatic. Below that, you have leeway to take a different boon/bane combo. Alternatively, Fred can survive getting crit if he's at full HP, allowing him to soften up the boss for someone else to kill.

I'm talking about hard mode prologue where the boss has around 6 crit + fervor so Chrom can be hit by a crit. And using avatar is nonsense in a challenging run. Ignis breaks the laws of this world by giving you 1.5 times your normal damage on a balanced grandmaster (I always use magic as a tactician except for some fights when swords are preferable but my tactician is always a magic unit with very often +mag/-HP because HP cap stays the same even with Hp flaw and it doesn't affect my other stats too negatively). And rally spectrum is too strong too. In the worst case I'll just replace Miriel with him for late game if I strongly need a rally bot and give him the same number of level ups she got by then, and he won't be used for combat (I didn't even touch the avatar's customization menu).

@Hawkwing Thanks for the share, I don't use most children since their story doesn't really pick my interest and they are game breaking. The only reason I like to do Severa's paralogue is for early second seal in her spot's shop (at chapter 14 instead of 17).

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3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Tharja has better use in her base class than Ricken, she can go forward without dying to the 1st ennemy with 15 speed, she has as much or more defence as Ricken depending if he goes sage or dark knight, she has no real skill problems since even missing once won't lead her to instant death unlike him (well anyway he can't even nosferatank at all) and when she hits with nosferatu it's 10 HP recovery minimum on most of the ennemies. Do you really want me to make a summary of why lunatic is a breeze with a team of nosferatanks or can you go search it by yourself on any Internet resources about this game? Casual and pro players can win the game easily with nosferatanks because they tank and heal themselves for the amount they loose each time they get hit (don't forget the sorcerer's skill adding the damage you just took to your total damage for more healing or more ORKO).

Tharja uses this build well and from the beginning. And unlike Ricken or Miriel she can play on EP without getting ORKO so she can hit/kill/miss more ennemies. So she levels up faster and she ends up with a 5-10 levels lead on them if you let her do her job without favoriting others. That's the exact reason why I don't play her, she's too gamebreaking (like any nosferatank) and without nosferatank why using her over another tanky unit that has access to magic classes?

Because 5 base skill is "no real skill problems", right??? Oh, wait, it is a problem. Sorry! As a result, she's forced to use fire or wind magic to minimize the effects of it, and thus can't really use Nosferatu because her hit rate with it's gonna be crap. Also, because her skill is so low, she can't activate Vengeance reliably, even with its generous activation rate. 

I dunno about you, but I generally find it very hard to find any reason to invest in Tharja between her skill and luck woes, and the fact that by the time she's relevant, Robin, Miriel, AND Ricken all outstrip her in terms of magic... She's more defensive than the mages, but whoops, she faces crit rates that make her not as tanky as she should be in practice.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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12 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'm talking about hard mode prologue where the boss has around 6 crit + fervor so Chrom can be hit by a crit. And using avatar is nonsense in a challenging run. Ignis breaks the laws of this world by giving you 1.5 times your normal damage on a balanced grandmaster (I always use magic as a tactician except for some fights when swords are preferable but my tactician is always a magic unit with very often +mag/-HP because HP cap stays the same even with Hp flaw and it doesn't affect my other stats too negatively). And rally spectrum is too strong too. In the worst case I'll just replace Miriel with him for late game if I strongly need a rally bot and give him the same number of level ups she got by then, and he won't be used for combat (I didn't even touch the avatar's customization menu).

Where are you getting 6% base Crit from? Garrick has 6 Skl on Hard and 8 on Lunatic(+), which translates to 3% and 4%, respectively. Gamble adds 10% to that. Robin has 4 base Luck, which, when coupled with the 10 Dodge from adjacent supports, is 14. That completely negates Garrick's crit chance on any difficulty.

Not using pair-up already removes Robin's main advantage, which is Veteran, so I don't see why you'd bother banning her on top of that. Even given a ban, though, Fred can soften the boss up while being fully able to survive a crit, allowing Chrom to safely take the kill.

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Really? Have you ever surpassed a Tharja with a Ricken or Miriel in a no grind run? Have you ever tried a no pair up run? Try these challenges and let's see what your opinion is. Count the number of fights you do with each one of them and count how many EP fights they survive. Maybe they deal more on your phase, but as you know EP is highly more important in Awakening than in many previous FEs. If said mage can only be used during my phase because he/she is too squishy to see EP then why would I even level him/her up? That's also the point in FE: RD where mages often can't be used in ennemy phase unless they are mid-tier 3 in hard mode and probably never in lunatic.

My first FE was TSS and I used mages all the time, even if sometimes I had to grind a bit at Valni to get them to tier 2 they would be able to do their slaughter job even during ennemy phase and they had time to grow to mid tier 2 by the time ennemies became dangerous for them as newly promoted units. Dodgetanking was the base of TSS since you could get petrified (with +30 crit chance for the ennemy on you and no avoid), asleep or berserk and get killed by your own unit or get killed easily while defenceless. So when I see a game like Awakening with so many cheating methods included into the game to stomp it, I just wanna try to play it without these easy mode options. And without rerolling units all the time, giving them outside exp and without the bonus stats from supports, the game becomes much less of an amusement park. That's where I want to play. And in my challenge I don't use squishy units who deal tons of damage because they can't get hit by those 40+ damage late game ennemies and even less against the lethal weapon wielders (assassins with 45-50 damage 145+ lethal bows are scary especially if you use flyers).

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15 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Where are you getting 6% base Crit from? Garrick has 6 Skl on Hard and 8 on Lunatic(+), which translates to 3% and 4%, respectively. Gamble adds 10% to that. Robin has 4 base Luck, which, when coupled with the 10 Dodge from adjacent supports, is 14. That completely negates Garrick's crit chance on any difficulty.

I just put Chrom alone there. No pair up and no dual strikes also means no Freddy/avatar to save Chrom's ass from the boss, it's 1 on 1 on EP then Lissa heals then Chrom goes again, etc. If I'm not wrong mine just trolled me by critting the boss and getting the kill from the 1st blow (or was it in chapter 3? I don't remember). Rapier stole my precious exp! Damn you rapier!

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If you are not Sumia, Olivia, Anna, Libra, Frederick, F!Robin, Chrom, Morgan or Lucina you don't last more than 2 maps. There is no point in investing in anyone when you can easily rescueskip the game with galeforce.

Edited by L9999

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4 hours ago, L9999 said:

If you are not Sumia, Olivia, Anna, Libra, Frederick, F!Robin, Chrom, Morgan or Lucina you don't last more than 2 maps. There is no point in investing in anyone when you can easily rescueskip the game with galeforce.

Is it a troll post? Because it looks like one.

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Lon'qu is good, but S-Tier is pushing it.

He is eventually going to reach a point on Lunatic where he's not going to be able to dodge reliably against the enemy's crazy hit rates, he's going to go squish on the frontlines, and his damage output is going to start looking really meh + dependent on fishing for crits. 

He's undeniably clutch in the early game though. And he can provide some really nice pair up buffs + go into bows and take on a less frontline role with his assassin promotion, so there's that. Anyway you build him though,hes still one of those units thats going to drop off a ton towards the midgame.

Tharja on the otherhand, after a bit of a slow start, is going to be your most competent gen 1  nosferatu tank (and therefore the main tank that carries you through the midgame, because nosferatu tanking is absolutely busted in awakening). Until you start breaking the game with Morgan. 

Tharja deserves S-tier, tbh. The only thing noticeably wrong with her is her hit rate, and that's easy enough to patch-up with the right pair-up partner.

Her defensive is good enough to take an odd hit or two from a physical unit if Nosferatu misses--thats usually just extra V[engence] fuel anyway. And its not like she's ever going to be struggling to hit magic users once she grabs [tomebreaker]. 

She also isn't tremendously hard to get going after you recruit her, as in the time between bringing her on board at base + getting her up to tanking level, its fairly easy to just slap an (el)wind tome on her and pick off free kills on anything that your early frontline units  fail to one-round. The naturally high hit rate on wind magic cancels out her low base skill and lets her reliably land those finishing blows. 

Tharja is easily one of the best units on Lunatic. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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