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Hi gamers,

I'm willing to do a hard mode run if possible in no grind with as little pair ups as possible (only for when they can't do it without pair up and mostly for the early game since it's the point when units are weak). Which are the worst units I could toy with?

-Ricken maybe

-Miriel because she's a glass cannon

-Gaius maybe (terrible base stats+class doesn't help with his bases/growths)

-Frederick? If he is used past chapter 11 his usefulness falls heavily as a main unit

-Zelcher? She has no reclassing options for physical unit

-Maribelle? her performance in the desert is awful, some plains have many forests for her to be slowed down and her stats are overmeh

-Nowi?

-Gregor maybe? He isn't gonna double anyone before long and isn't really a tank + he lacks mobility as a hero or stats as a bow knight

-Vaike? Yeah Vaike is a good bad choice

-Archer Virion? It might be his worst class

-Henry without nosferatu? He might get doubled all the time from his join time

-Pegasus!Cordelia?

-Not fighting Olivia because of no grind rule (Olivia won't reach level 10 dancer before long so reclassing her is gonna be hard)

-Donnel? He starts very weak and if I throw him to the fighter class he might be less OP than in the mercenary route (and maybe warrior then for counter, rally strength for late game use).

 

If you have more ideas or builds for said "bad" unit or if you want me to do a no reclass (except units who can't play in their base class like Donnel) then please tell me. It's gonna be fun! Or not...

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What about going without reclassing, full stop? It would limit the amount of skills you could have on any given character. See, even the worst unit in a Fire Emblem game is viable if given enough attention. But you stunt the growth with something so simple, and then viability will suffer. It would also prevent level grinding by reclassing a fully levelled unit to max stats.

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So what do you want exactly? Because Donnel is unusable in his base class for example while Vaike has less growth rates (especially a bas strength for a fighter I've seen him more than once having the same amount of strength and skill even before promotion into hero) he has a good base class with 2 good promotions.

Or should I go for old legit promotion path? Like archer forced into sniper, fighter into warrior, myrmidon into swordmaster, wyvern into wyvern lord, troubadour into valkyria (ouch I hate this class in every post TSS FE in TSS they were good but in more recent games they're horrible and close to unusable from my point of view, everyone has a different one but for me it's the worst class design in FE Awakening with villager...and villager comes with 2 excellent growth/helping skills for combat), priest/sister into warmonk, mage into sage (negating dark knight's existence seems so cruel to me I love hybrid classes they have good defensive stats or at least good offence) etc.?

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I was thinking more you promote as you want, you just don't use reclass seals. But you're right. I didn't think of Donnel needing one to stop being a villager. Forgive me on that, I've been playing SoV through for a second time. I'd suggest he be the exception to the rule specifically due to being a villager. Unless you wanted to be really nasty. But I can't recommend it.
Mind you I'm suggesting this because I'm actually planning on doing a run under the "no reclass" set of rules regardless. Mostly because I find the idea interesting.

Edited by Mad-manakete
Adding a little more information.

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As for the units, are there any I didn't think of in my post? I mean except Basilio and Flavia joining in chapter 23 or later.

No grind or grind with no second seals? (it will change the early game difficulty but t won't change how late game is gonna be tricky) and if no reclass then pre-promotes suj as Anna would be weak enough to be used as they come (I don't think Anna will ever be a good fighting unit without reclassing)?

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Personally, I intended to try for no grind.... but then I'm using pair up, so I'd say see how it goes. There's a fine line between challenge and masochism. Shame no one else has chimed in. I'm interested what other people might suggest. Given difficulty is kind of subjective. What one person finds hard might come naturally to another. I figure someone would have far more interesting ideas than leaving second seals out of a run.

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Yes that's what I thought too but maybe it's too early in the morning for the forumers to be active, I live in France so here it is 3:34 p.m.

Generally the forum is more active when it's around 10 p.m or later here.

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On ‎06‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 8:56 AM, mangasdeouf said:

-Miriel because she's a glass cannon

-Zelcher? She has no reclassing options for physical unit

-Maribelle? her performance in the desert is awful, some plains have many forests for her to be slowed down and her stats are overmeh

Just because Miriel is a glass cannon doesn't mean she's bad. Also, Cherche has Griffon Rider and War Cleric that she can reclass into and still use physical weapons. Finally, Maribelle's performance in the desert isn't any worse than Stahl's or Sully's, and her stats are fine (apart from her defense).

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Well my Maribelle's level ups tend to give her 1 hp 1 luck, occasionnally 1 mag, spd or res instead of HP (I'd say I have a 2.5 stat average per level up on her, for me she always sucked balls except in one run in normal where she was the best dark flier between her and Lissa, not counting combat units because their stat gains are way better than any non-Libra healer, BTW my Libra always has the best stats of any of my natural healers with average +10 in every stat and +17 or so HP at level 20 warmonk, vs +6 average for Lissa with more luck and hp and average 3-4 on Maribelle). That's why I complain about her and don't want to raise her. Miriel is hardly usable outside of normal for me since placement is harder than in RD where at meast you had height terrain advantage to take advantage of to train them. When I play Miriel, I end up EXPonentionalling her because she's just so awful...in no reclass I don't even take her except level 10 staff bot promotion...with exponential growth.

I'm planning on doing a special run, well anyone knows this kind but I have a special setting: Hard mode no reclass with as much grinding as I want, but I am not allowed to promote units before chapter 12 is finished and I have access to master seals. Chapters 11 and 12 without reclass/promotion are gonna be the real deal for me since I've always done it with either a reclassed from level 15-20 or a promoted unit from level 20. I think of using Nowi and Panne in their base class but I don't know, Nowi's character isn't interesting, she's the worst Manakete in her game (TSS Myrrh's 130 HP growth for the win!), dragonstone isn't available for long since 50 uses and no other before Gangrel means she has 50 hits to exp before chapter 11 and then she has no more weapon, and buying a dragonstone + feels like cheating with +3-4 in every stat than basic dragonstone...Tagüel has no access to good weaponry until chapter 20, Valmians laugh at their ridiculous stat boosts and base damage...I think making someone 10/1 dread knight (keeping the +10 res for endgame because it's so OP but not using him early mid game). I just like hybrid classes a bit too much. For once my unit will be used as a rally spectrum or Ignis attacker in his blass class set. Nor reroll at level 20, if a unit get shitty levels I bench it unless it's too important (Libra won't fail me anyway, sadly without reclassing his 19 levels will be a bit short for endgame but if he can't bolt axe anyone he's gonna staff bot anyway). I don't plan on nosferatanking even in late game, maybe dark knights will be my buddies for any mage/dark mage used.

|A little related to Awakening in the sense it got modified to look like it, I just closely to finished a FE: TSS Nightmare mod and I'm testing it, I balanced classes like in Awakening (with the 30 cap instead of 56 or so) and mage knight is now what it should've been, with dark and anima tomes and hybrid def/res high magic GK (27 mag, 26 def and 23 res, 23 spd, and females have +1 res -1 def) like it should be. it's funny to play TSS like Awakening but without the cheated skills (sure generals were way stronger back then but hey, -1 strength and speed cap with 21 instead of 25 res, only their guard skill is OP with 100% damage reduction of any kind, aegis+ combined with pavise+ is so good when it wills to work). Ephraim's bad caps are rebalanced with more Ike-like caps (higher speed and skill, good def, bad res), same for wyvern lord with radiant dawn's tier 3 balance in stats, soldier is now a promotion for Amelia, it gives her great stats boosts and good caps but is a promoted class from tier -1 Amelia so she get like a few more stats than a knight with GK's growths and it means all soldiers on story mode have the promoted class bonus stats (3 to 6 def until chapter 6 I just cleared with 13 to 17 strength for the moment, a soldier had 25 MT in stats XD it's much more fun, and Seth has 13/12/11/13/8 to be more like Fred and tank the early soldiers before buffed Garcia (more skill and a few buffs to speed and def but no much just tostay relevant as a warrior) can do it to get exp and promote to warrior for flyer-killing bruiser.

Dozla has gotten 3 extra base speed and berserker growths (90% hp, 70% str, 55 spd and 35-ish def 30-ish res). I've suppressed weight except for reverse triangle, killer, class killer and long range/devil/battle weapons. Stat boosters replaced by elixir, pure water, promotion item (chapter 7 mage with energy ring) or gems and now secret shops from endgame sell them for 15k for 1 pair of boots, 20k for unlimited luck or unit weight and 30k for unlimited HP, str, mag, skill, def and res items for min/maxers but still it means a lot of gold, and weapons are unlimited, Rapier is a mini-levin sword, magic swords are sold, tomahawk and short spear are magic weapons, legendary weapons are rebalanced to fit the triangle damage/hit based on iron weapons with 10 crit, etc. it's gonna be a good alternative to Awakening I think, especially rapier and Reginleif being 1-2 ranged and soldiers being more dangerous than any other ennemy in early game and probably buffed in late game with level 16-ish units (FE TSS stats balance adds average growths to base stats for approximative ennemy stats so base growths are important).no units are useless anymore, LTC or not, even Kyle Franz Forde have special niches with Kyle being a GK by bases and growths, surpassing Seth by late game, Forde being a mage killer with skill, average speed and res and Franz being a speedster like Sully with a bit less def growth although mine got good def levels. Even the late Syrene got a niche in a tanky pegasus with better bases, while Vanessa is the speedy resistant one to kill mages and Tana the typical wyvern knight with Wyvern-Panne-like growths with lower def. Any unit/class is useful, even summonner with more supportive stats like 30 cap magic for staves to reach units from afar and high skill for debuff staves but low speed and defenses. Just wanted to write about a day's work on a forum with people who could be interested.]

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You could try using a Maiden!Lucina. I don't know how bad her stats would be since I've never actually done that, but I think it'd be an idea worth considering.

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On 2/16/2018 at 11:32 AM, Lucielia said:

You could try using a Maiden!Lucina. I don't know how bad her stats would be since I've never actually done that, but I think it'd be an idea worth considering.

Still usable.

TC, give Panne in her default class a whirl.

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I take the test of finishing the game with only Panne in her base class and Donnel, using the least possible any other unit when I'm forced to (like Donny get a supporter to get to a decent level and some guys to clear the annoying ennemies who put him in danger, or he is simply unusable) on hard mode. I will do hard casual because I hate loosing units in their recruitment chapter (mostly concerning Maribelle and Ricken). Maybe I could also use Sumia in her cannon class (straight to falcon knight since it doesn't get LOLgaleforce). I don't know if skills will be allowed, maybe in early game until they don't have to rely on them too much.

Edit: just finished Donnel's paralogue when it spawned, Donnel level 4/74% and Sumia level 8, Chrom level 10 with 26 HP, 13 strength, 16 skill, 14 spd, 10 luck, 12 def and 3 res (like 15 stat points more than in my previous game) and he won't move from that until instant promotion, then I'll see if he can take out Valldar or if he needs a few level ups. Sumia: 23/10/5/17/16+2/14/7/10. Donnel: 19/6/1/4/5/14/4/1. Discovering a Gaius sweet helped me a lot for the paralogue.

I'll just say to people telling shit about Donnel than giving him a second seal is the same as giving anyone a master seal (or even better) so why would they spit on it? he has 2 promotions instead of 1, just like FE8 trainees, but with much better promotion/reclass gains.

Edited by mangasdeouf

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4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'll just say to people telling shit about Donnel than giving him a second seal is the same as giving anyone a master seal (or even better) so why would they spit on it? he has 2 promotions instead of 1, just like FE8 trainees, but with much better promotion/reclass gains.

I don't see it when second seals are limited in quantity for most of the game - until chapter 16, you get only 4 second seals; one from renown, one from chapter 8, another in chapter 12, and one more in chapter 15. This means giving him a second seal he needs just to function has a high opportunity cost. To say nothing of how arduous it is to get him there. He only has 1 and a half class trees, because both of his alternate classes share a promotion. Making things worse, he loses his lance rank once he reclasses, meaning he has to deal with bronze lock again.

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It's mostly a problem with Donnel having competition within his own niche. He's a growth unit who is supposed to get pretty strong off of Aptitude and good growths. However, Robin makes better use of the Second Seal because Veteran is ten times more broken than Aptitude wishes it could be. On top of that, Panne is basically Donnel, but with a less trash start (which is really saying something because Taguel is baaaaaaad—just not as awful as Villager) and gaining a similar promotion-like stat gain via the Second Seal. To pour even more salt in Donnel's wound, Panne has growths that are about as good as his, with Aptitiude in play. There's just no real good reason to use Donnel other than favouratism, because even discounting the resources being generally better used by nearly any of the other Shepherds, being third place in his niche isn't anything to write home about.

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This is actually an engaging thought exercise.

Hmmm...Virion, Villager!Donnel, Kellam, and Taguel!Payne are obvious choices with little investment.

You can also use existing characters in unintended roles, like Henry without Nos as you suggested, or Gaius, Olivia, and Anna as frontline fighters.

Beyond that you may have to waste second seals to make people worse or make their weaknesses matter.  A good candidate for that would be Maribelle to take away her ability to use staves.  You could then turn Sumia, Kellam, or Cherche into the party healer if you still think healer Lissa or Libra are too easy.

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Kellam gets Sage through Priest, and thus he starts at E Tomes when he promotes. Also, even though he would get a mobility boost, the tradeoff would be a defense loss even with his innate +2 Def from his base class. He also would be dependent upon other units to gain levels, which isn't easy when this game has such tanky and dodgy units that aren't scratched easily one way or another. Not to mention he's literally defenseless until he promotes.

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On 4/4/2018 at 8:12 AM, Hylian Air Force said:

Kellam gets Sage through Priest, and thus he starts at E Tomes when he promotes. Also, even though he would get a mobility boost, the tradeoff would be a defense loss even with his innate +2 Def from his base class. He also would be dependent upon other units to gain levels, which isn't easy when this game has such tanky and dodgy units that aren't scratched easily one way or another. Not to mention he's literally defenseless until he promotes.

If there's no LTC involved one can buy a bunch of Rescues and use them to shoot up to at least 10, then master seal up, y'all. 

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