Camilla Is Way To O.P.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

5 heart seals +Fren seals +partner seals is a fuckton of seals. Using all of them up over 13 chapters is a tall order.

Stave rank and skill boost stave acc more than mag. Stop being bad atthe game and you'll see 90% freeze as well. Seriously though I've tried to use every stave charge in the game for some meaningful gain. You can't. There's that many charges of freeze/enfeeble/entrap. No worries.

Sorry but... "I am levant, I complain about units dieing, I am unimpressed by a unit that cannot die. Ever". Pffft. Past that short list is short and off the top of me head. Absolute worst case you have Leo/Odin/Ophelia/Any other HS or Mein user ever to spread that sweet love around. So worst case 4 completely free units 3 of which are V!Sorc and one is Benny. Cry me a river over heartseekers limited pool of weak units.

Bow users can and will hit 20/5 in ch17. Shoot. through. the. wall. Bam.

Who the fuck mentioned evasion? Let any unit in your army hold a fat bitch like Corrin on a mountain with Elise/aurabot!Cammy riding an actual dragon on a peak behind em punching the rally button with a fat load of drugs and a filling meal shoved down their neck. Bam +20 def they're immortal now.

There is a broad well defined line between "reckless agression" and "the ability to count to 10". Guard guage needs only the later to be an abusable mechanic.

Hp tonics are good. You should use them sometime.

-------------------------

On topic I wonder if Cammys charecter design discussion looked anything like the Pubkeeper design discussions in Eo2+ where the only design consideration is just an arrow at the chest labled "huge".

I don't concern myself with the other seals all that much, to be honest.

And Elise's skill is pretty sucky. Also, you need to stop being arrogant.

And from where I'm standing, you're going "ooh, look at me, I'm joshcja, the single most arrogant and irritating person to ever exist on SF", which is no better. Excuse me while I vomit.

Even bow users that probably promoted one chapter ago?

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't concern myself with the other seals all that much, to be honest.

And Elise's skill is pretty sucky. Also, you need to stop being arrogant.

And from where I'm standing, you're going "ooh, look at me, I'm joshcja, the single most arrogant and irritating person to ever exist on SF", which is no better. Excuse me while I vomit.

Even bow users that probably promoted one chapter ago?

 

Ignoring 2/3's of the games options seems like a bad plan.

Lilys poise. It's basicly a stronger verson of inspiration the xl15 skill, you get it at xl1, and it stacks. It's a full on +7 rally boost a stronger version of the x/5 skill, at xl1, that does not consume an action, for free, and it stacks. You can pretty freely invest in Elise's bulk, because once she's a frontline unit she just walks/flaps over and goes "Hey, tis I bitches, No killing, No, bad, this ho I'm leanin on is immortal now kay?" and then it is so. Roses thorns is the player phase equivilant that winds up being slightly weaker as  stack skills slant almost exclusively to damage and like 90% of this game is EP. Still a sickbroken skill.

Wugga wugga.

Yes. Ninjas are exp pinyata's with skin, of paper, bones of glass, and muscle of wet ciggerette. Shoot through a wall. Get fuckin Swole yo. The basic "Oh god help I used Effie" strat for 17 is just, 32 AS bow aimed at the center and Peirce The Heavens With My Drill Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

Normally the unit winds up around 20/5 having consumed a few thousand gallons of ninja blood.

Edited February 22, 2018 by joshcja

[Dean]

Can confirm Bow Dude shreds Chapter 17. Last Lunatic play through my Niles entered level 18 and left 20/4... could’ve leaned on him a little more as well but I was probably spreading experience between too many units than would be optimal (go Selena and Beruka! go pretend to be useful!)

 

Levant seems OK with shutting down josh’s strats but have you suggested any of your own? I’m keen to learn and try new things that I’m sure will make Ch19 a breeze.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:50 PM, Dean said:

Can confirm Bow Dude shreds Chapter 17. Last Lunatic play through my Niles entered level 18 and left 20/4... could’ve leaned on him a little more as well but I was probably spreading experience between too many units than would be optimal (go Selena and Beruka! go pretend to be useful!)

 

Levant seems OK with shutting down josh’s strats but have you suggested any of your own? I’m keen to learn and try new things that I’m sure will make Ch19 a breeze.

I'm not denying that - rather, I'm taking issue with the lack of bow units before units start achieving promotion (Anna is DLC, Niles isn't exactly good imho, and Mozu needs a valuable Heart Seal. Anyone else has to dig their way out of E rank).

You I tend to reject joshcja's "strategies" because they tend to require very specific things, especially if the required thing is some half-assed gimmick (e.g. Wyvern Elise. Some might say otherwise, but I'm not naïve enough or trusting enough to believe them - Elise's skill is worrisome enough, and giving her the most inaccurate weapon type isn't going to do her any favors, to say nothing of her piss-poor strength). His ego doesn't help his case, because all it does is make me even less inclined to take him seriously.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

Edit: I guess "Bow is complicated" does explain postend Camilia....

Edited February 23, 2018 by joshcja

[Dean]

Doesn’t have to be Niles! Having a quick look at the numbers 17/1 Selena hits the same benchmarks for Ch17. You have options. (I think the original topic was Rally Skill so Mozu isn’t really relevant for this discussion? But then again this thread is about Camilla so we’re already way off topic).

 

But I think what I’d like to say is that I think it’s important to actually try things out and keep an open mind before dismissing them, otherwise we stagnate as players - I’ve tried some of these “gimmicks” that I was initially skeptical of (e.g. Wyvern Rider Elise) and they put in work - the maths actually does back this up as well. You don’t have to like joshcja but the dude seems like one of the more experienced players here? and I’d like to think he wouldn’t spruik strategies he found ineffective!

[joshcja]

2 hours ago, Dean said:

Doesn’t have to be Niles! Having a quick look at the numbers 17/1 Selena hits the same benchmarks for Ch17. You have options. (I think the original topic was Rally Skill so Mozu isn’t really relevant for this discussion? But then again this thread is about Camilla so we’re already way off topic).

The complaint was that staves and heartseeker are somehow hard to use, killing one dude with one weapon is hard, and how 100% disp hit was not enough because Levant.

Be/WL!Camilia is obviously out despite this thread being all about her because Kotaro can 1% crit into a full guard guage for non-lethal damage on the last action of the map. Or she could miss and you'd need to use of of your other 13 units to finish him off.

20/5 Sniper gets CBlow and probably has A Wta on GameOfNinjaThrones so you're looking at well over 100% disp hit off that alone. The units mentioned will also have enough buffed speed to double at 20/5 without pairup and have enough luck to 0 out the bosses crit.

It's like the most niche thing ever as kinshi is just better than Sniper on every single map including 17, but hey, Levant logic.

Edited February 24, 2018 by joshcja

[anniec8711]

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

It's like the most niche thing ever as kinshi is just better than Sniper on every single map including 17, but hey, Levant logic.

Don't be too hard on him though.  He is right.  Everything we ever post or suggest is 100% wrong and we have no clue what we're talking about.  Take me for instance: I actually think Niles is a good character and Camilla works fine in her default class. 

I don't mind too much though.  I know I suck at this game, but I'm having fun and Camilla looks much more sexier as a Malig Knight anyways

[Shadow Mir]

11 hours ago, Dean said:

Doesn’t have to be Niles! Having a quick look at the numbers 17/1 Selena hits the same benchmarks for Ch17. You have options. (I think the original topic was Rally Skill so Mozu isn’t really relevant for this discussion? But then again this thread is about Camilla so we’re already way off topic).

 

But I think what I’d like to say is that I think it’s important to actually try things out and keep an open mind before dismissing them, otherwise we stagnate as players - I’ve tried some of these “gimmicks” that I was initially skeptical of (e.g. Wyvern Rider Elise) and they put in work - the maths actually does back this up as well. You don’t have to like joshcja but the dude seems like one of the more experienced players here? and I’d like to think he wouldn’t spruik strategies he found ineffective!

I'm not a fan of promoting before level 20 - in a game as unforgiving as this, I want all the levels I can get.

Keeping an open mind is one thing, but being too trusting leaves you open to being disappointed. And even if Wyvern Elise isn't too bad once she gets to use the Bolt Axe, what about before then...??? And it's one thing if joshcja is one of the more experienced players, but he's also an arrogant jerk and a bully - two things I absolutely fucking despise. Those kinds of people will NEVER earn my respect. It doesn't help that even when he was new, he and I were at each other's throats - a harbinger of trouble, if you ask me.

2 hours ago, anniec8711 said:

Don't be too hard on him though.  He is right.  Everything we ever post or suggest is 100% wrong and we have no clue what we're talking about.  Take me for instance: I actually think Niles is a good character and Camilla works fine in her default class. 

I don't mind too much though.  I know I suck at this game, but I'm having fun and Camilla looks much more sexier as a Malig Knight anyways

That isn't entirely it - it has more to do with the fact that I do not like being disappointed by things people talk up (e.g. Niles). And I am also extremely stingy with second chances - if they fail to make a good first impression, they're likely getting a one-way ticket to benchville if I didn't like them from the word go (if I did, I'd be more accommodating, but only a handful of characters are those I actually latch onto immediately), and more to the point, will most likely get snubbed in future runs.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dean]

Interesting reply - there are some things I wouldn’t mind going into further depth on but I think I’ve gone well off topic so I won’t comment further.

[anniec8711]

17 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And it's one thing if joshcja is one of the more experienced players, but he's also an arrogant jerk and a bully - two things I absolutely fucking despise. Those kinds of people will NEVER earn my respect. It doesn't help that even when he was new, he and I were at each other's throats - a harbinger of trouble, if you ask me.

Now I really want to know what this beef between @Levant Mir Celestia and @joshcja is all about!  Or at least provide a link to the thread where the fireworks happen.  I personally have never had any problems with joshcja, and I find it kind of ironic that Levant is the person calling out someone for being an arrogant jerk.

 

10 hours ago, Dean said:

Interesting reply - there are some things I wouldn’t mind going into further depth on but I think I’ve gone well off topic so I won’t comment further.

I guess just as long as we talk about Camilla for at least a sentence per post, we should still be on track for this topic.

[joshcja]

44 minutes ago, anniec8711 said:

Now I really want to know what this beef between @Levant Mir Celestia and @joshcja is all about!  Or at least provide a link to the thread where the fireworks happen.  I personally have never had any problems with joshcja, and I find it kind of ironic that Levant is the person calling out someone for being an arrogant jerk.

TL:DR Levant is a troll who spews dumbshit comments that a large portion of this community is brickbrained enough to agree with, and I'm a troll who spews smartshit knowledge drops in an intentionally missleading or obtuse manner to piss off the brickbrains.

Edited February 25, 2018 by joshcja

[anniec8711]

Ah ok.  That makes sense.  But I thought trolls were cool with each other and stuck together.  That's clearly not the case between you two.

[Mandokarla]

12 hours ago, anniec8711 said:

Ah ok.  That makes sense.  But I thought trolls were cool with each other and stuck together.  That's clearly not the case between you two.

They both tend to spew their opinions like political rhetoric whenever they appear in the same thread. They are both rather arrogant and brickheaded about said opinions, but both of them do offer some good game advice on differing things. I was able to beat Conquest Lunatic based on some of Joshcja's advice, for example. Of the two, I find Levant to be somewhat more dogmatic, namely regarding axe units in general, but when the two get together they're equally unbearable. 

Frankly, seeing the constant fights becomes extremely tiresome -- and I do feel like it's a good example of the mindsets that infect these forums: "my strats are better for X reason, even if it means risking resets for speed (Levant) / sacrificing enjoyment and time to create blender unit (Joshcja)". For example, I find early HSing Felicia to strategist is fun and makes my life easier for a few chapters, but others would tear into me about that being a wasted early heart seal. Same goes for making Swordmaster!Odin. 

 

To comment on the OP: Camilla is (IMO) the single best default unit in the game. Before seal abuse is considered, Camilla offers upon promotion damage, mobility, 1-2 range options with hand axes (and magic, but its kinda low, so...).  On Normal, her use trivializes the game. On Hard, she makes it much easier. On Lunatic, I'd argue that she is a must-deploy. 

And she's pretty damn hot, so there's that. If only she had more of an actual character -- another victim of Fates writing.  

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

risking resets for speed (Levant)

The hell?! That is NOT what my strategies are about - if anything, that is the exact opposite of the strategies I would use.

[Mandokarla]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The hell?! That is NOT what my strategies are about - if anything, that is the exact opposite of the strategies I would use.

You're right, that's a typo, my bad

[joshcja]

10 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

sacrificing enjoyment and time to create blender unit.

This is kinda how fire emblem (and thus fe advice) has worked from day one. Fates (mostly cq) just makes the setup completely counterintuitive. So it gets discussed. Every. Other. Topic. That aint me yo. That's just "how the game do".

Personally I do not give a good god damn how anyone plays or what they use for fun. There is just a clear difference in (using your example) "SM Odin has a kickass coat and I really like the Sam animations" vs "SM Odin something something, anecdotal gameplay, bad logic, flawed math".

Edit becase I could not resist: Stat!Felecia gets used early in a lot of her supportive builds, namely aurabot, and offers strong 1-2 and 8 move at a time when tonics/pairup still negate the frailty of the class. Dwyer doesn't exist so it's only Felecia/Corn/mozu competing for the first two HS.

TL;DR: Provided the argument or opinion is built on a solid understanding of the games mechanics there's nothing to hate on. Everyone has a different threshold of risk/reward, cost/benifit, and fun/bored.

----------------------------------

Cammilia's got some great euginics? I do have one question about her outfit though. Why the damn cat ear crown? We already have a BDSM stripper yandere mother figure on a dragon. Was the cat fetish really nessecary?

Edited February 27, 2018 by joshcja

[anniec8711]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

There is just a clear difference in (using your example) "SM Odin has a kickass coat and I really like the Sam animations" (joshcja) vs "SM Odin something something, anecdotal gameplay, bad logic, flawed math" (Levant).

Yea, that sums it up pretty nicely.

Anyways . . . I love Camilla in her canon class, even though it's not her optimal choice statwise (as one discerning fellow pointed out earlier ).  But damnit I love that Malig Knight Armor!  And the class' high MAG and RES makes her a great Bolt Axe user, and she can effectively deal with the Onmyojis and Bolt Naginatas later in the game.  Plus you get Horse Spirit, so there's that. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by anniec8711

[Ninjato]

Eh she's never been anything special for tbh, she's good at what she does and that's that.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:47 PM, Mandokarla said:

They both tend to spew their opinions like political rhetoric whenever they appear in the same thread. They are both rather arrogant and brickheaded about said opinions, but both of them do offer some good game advice on differing things. I was able to beat Conquest Lunatic based on some of Joshcja's advice, for example. Of the two, I find Levant to be somewhat more dogmatic, namely regarding axe units in general, but when the two get together they're equally unbearable. 

Frankly, seeing the constant fights becomes extremely tiresome -- and I do feel like it's a good example of the mindsets that infect these forums: "my strats are better for X reason, even if it means risking resets for speed (Levant) / sacrificing enjoyment and time to create blender unit (Joshcja)". For example, I find early HSing Felicia to strategist is fun and makes my life easier for a few chapters, but others would tear into me about that being a wasted early heart seal. Same goes for making Swordmaster!Odin. 

 

To comment on the OP: Camilla is (IMO) the single best default unit in the game. Before seal abuse is considered, Camilla offers upon promotion damage, mobility, 1-2 range options with hand axes (and magic, but its kinda low, so...).  On Normal, her use trivializes the game. On Hard, she makes it much easier. On Lunatic, I'd argue that she is a must-deploy. 

And she's pretty damn hot, so there's that. If only she had more of an actual character -- another victim of Fates writing.  

I'm not going to deny that pride does have an effect on my outlook on things. Anyway, I do find Strategist Felicia worthwhile, particularly since it means having Inspiration access for more than like two chapters at most. As for Odin, I think he might be something in that class - it'd certainly be an ironic reversal from Awakening, to say the least (considering that Owain was more specialized in magic thanks to his mother being Lissa). With regard to axe users, I'm particularly hard on them since I generally find them unreliable relative to other units - a result of their weapons being the most inaccurate. Not helping their case is the fact that true hit is gone, as well as needing to worry about two weapon types now. On top of that, most axe units tend to not have the skill to make up for their weapons' inaccuracy. Wyvern Rider Elise, which tends to get a lot of hype for some reason, is a big one. And sure, she might have sky high luck to try to make up for that, but it isn't enough, since 2 points of luck only amount to 1 point of hit. FFS, assuming immediate reclass, she only has 3 skill. I wouldn't consider that acceptable even on normal mode, so there's no chance I'd recommend it on anything harder.

[DragonFlames]

On 25.2.2018 at 12:40 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm not a fan of promoting before level 20 - in a game as unforgiving as this, I want all the levels I can get.

Keeping an open mind is one thing, but being too trusting leaves you open to being disappointed. And even if Wyvern Elise isn't too bad once she gets to use the Bolt Axe, what about before then...??? And it's one thing if joshcja is one of the more experienced players, but he's also an arrogant jerk and a bully - two things I absolutely fucking despise. Those kinds of people will NEVER earn my respect. It doesn't help that even when he was new, he and I were at each other's throats - a harbinger of trouble, if you ask me.

That isn't entirely it - it has more to do with the fact that I do not like being disappointed by things people talk up (e.g. Niles). And I am also extremely stingy with second chances - if they fail to make a good first impression, they're likely getting a one-way ticket to benchville if I didn't like them from the word go (if I did, I'd be more accommodating, but only a handful of characters are those I actually latch onto immediately), and more to the point, will most likely get snubbed in future runs.

Interesting. That's actually how I work, as well, hence why I can't really see the Royals, the elder ones in particular, as anything but overhyped to hell and back.
With two exceptions, which, if you have seen any of my posts, you should already know about.

I got more mileage out of Hana than I ever did Ryoma. His only saving grace is the Raijinto, which is basically just a physical Levin Sword anyway (minus the avoid penalty).
Beruka has served me better than Camilla period, ESPECIALLY in the dreaded Ninja and Fox chapters (hello, good Skill stat!).
Pairing off Silas to Effie or Mozu gives you a Paladin that is 1000x superior to Xander (because Sophie is actually fast, unlike him) and you can get her long before Xander is even a thought.
Hinoka is trash in general (that might just be the Sky Knight class, though. Rest assured, I don't like Hinoka nearly enough to waste a Heart Seal on her unless I grind for skills).
Ophelia vastly outperforms Leo. She even comes with the better personal tome, to add insult to injury.
Takumi is worse than Sniper Mozu, because, like Xander, he has severe Speed issues.
Sakura and Elise are healers to their core and healers never face much competition in the first place.
In combat, Sakura shits all over Takumi once she promotes to Priestess and Elise shits all over every other magic user in the game once she promotes to Strategist. Switch her to a Witch and she'll be your strongest unit from the word go. And yet, these two never seem to get the limelight they would deserve.

That's not to say I consider them all hot garbage unit-wise (character-wise is a different beast altogether, though), but they are certainly the definition of overrated in my eyes.
And yes, I'm arguing from personal experience since that is something I can actually rely and fall back on. Average stats don't really do it for me, because they are rarely, if ever, reflected in gameplay proper.

[anniec8711]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:40 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And it's one thing if joshcja is one of the more experienced players, but he's also an arrogant jerk and a bully - two things I absolutely fucking despise. Those kinds of people will NEVER earn my respect.

Irony

[Shadow Mir]

13 minutes ago, anniec8711 said:

Irony

Do you have anything more to add, or are you here just to be some insult bot?