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Falchion vs Book of Naga/Medeus vs Loptyr

Dragon and Weapon  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is stronger?

    • Loptyr
      10
    • Medeus
      4
    • They are equal
      2
  2. 2. Which is stronger?

    • Falchion
      5
    • Book of Naga
      9
    • They are equal
      2


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I've actually encountered this argument a LOT of times, and it's never gotten a definite conclusion.

Naga carved Falchion out of her fang, and the might of this weapon has been able to defeat the likes of Medeus, the Earth Dragon prince, who later became a Dark Dragon. It was stated by Gotoh in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem that without Falchion, there was no hope of defeating Medeus.

By Awakening's time, Falchion in its full power is said by Naga to rival her own might, and can be used to seal Grima away.

A Valentian Falchion by Echoes has been used to defeat Duma, another Divine Dragon.

However, now we go onto the Book of Naga. As Kaga stated, its a magical tome that Naga placed her will and power into, and Forseti claims that without Naga's power, it was unlikely that they would be able to defeat Loptyr. Loptyr is a powerful Earth Dragon that seems to also have cases of being a Dark Dragon as well.

Now here's the question. Which is stronger? Falchion or the Book of Naga? Both were created by Naga, and both were the only weapons that could defeat the dragon (or dragon powered) enemy that the heroes were fighting against. And Falchion has been stated by Kaga to be created in a similar method to that of the Jugdral Holy Weapons. But unlike Book of Naga, it seems that the Falchion does not have the case of the will of Naga possessing the host.

Would that make Falchion inferior? There was never any confirmation on that being the case, and by Awakening, Falchion has been confirmed to rival the might of Naga herself.

And this is where the other topic comes. To question on whether Falchion or Book of Naga is stronger, which is stronger for the dragon that was used against for it? Medeus or Loptyr? Which Earth Dragon was stronger?

So share your thoughts on who you think is stronger, and therefore which weapon is therefore stronger as well.

My personal belief is that Falchion is the stronger of the two, or at the very least, the two weapons rival one another.

Edited by omegaxis1

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For what it's worth, the Falchions are effective against any dragon, while the Tome only seems to counter Loptyr's power. Then again, since you never fight any actual dragons (Julius possessed by the imprint of Loptyr's will does not exactly count as one, physically at least), it's hard to say if the Jugdrali Holy Weapons could, or it's a Naga only thing by virtue of being the strongest dragon. Though then that could mean the Tome would have the property. Then again, the Falchions are actual parts of Naga, unlike the Tome. So who knows.

On the other hand, the Tome enpowers greatly the user, and Falchion... well, it's power has varied across the series. In the original game, Falchion actually granted immunity to physical attacks (or was it ranged attacks? Either way, it made you immune to a lot of things). Nowadays it no longer has that, but one thing it has kept always is it's ability to recover HP to the wielder.  The Falchion is also meant to be used with the Fire Emblem, which comes with abilities of its own. Do we count the sword alone or both sword and shield? Though the fact the sword is not meant to be used alone means that, on that virtue alone, it could be inferior to the Tome by virtue of only being one half of the set, as the Tome is not part of a set. Although the original Falchion could be formidable on its own due to the immunity.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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It seems like the will of Naga faded out of the Book of Naga (Similar to the other divine weapons, hence explaining the reduction in stats) over time unlike the Falchion, which gained strength through the rite of the Exalt.

So at creation the Book of Naga is stronger but by the time of Awakening Falchion (At least the Exalted one) is stronger imo. Though Acacia is right about none of the Judgrali weapons attacking dragons directly and never being tested on them.

As for Medeus vs. Loptyr, I would consider Loptyr potentially stronger, though we don't really see much of Loptyr that isn't dependent on a vessel. Medeus does show his full might and while he can be attacked y more than Falchion, he still needs to be attacked by Divine Dragons. So Medeus as we see him, though Loptyr could have been stronger.

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Well, I'm still waiting on his response. Hopefully he'll come through soon. 

You know where I stand, but I am interested in other people's opinions. 

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Based on the prerequisites to wield them, I would rank from strongest to weakest:

Awakening's Falchion and Genealogy's Book of Naga requires Naga's brand.

Genealogy's other Holy Weapons, and arguably Echoes' Falchion, requires the brand of a non-Naga dragon.

Dark Dragon's Falchion, and Nagi's Falchion don't require a brand, but are established to be locked to Marth.

Awakening's Holy Weapons, including the Book of Naga, aren't locked and only require weapon rank.

Marth's Falchion used with the Shield of Seals is a wildcard; because of the Awakening ritual, it's probably not as strong as Awakening's Falchion, but it's probably stronger than the non-Naga brand weapons.

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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

For what it's worth, the Falchions are effective against any dragon, while the Tome only seems to counter Loptyr's power. Then again, since you never fight any actual dragons (Julius possessed by the imprint of Loptyr's will does not exactly count as one, physically at least), it's hard to say if the Jugdrali Holy Weapons could, or it's a Naga only thing by virtue of being the strongest dragon. Though then that could mean the Tome would have the property. Then again, the Falchions are actual parts of Naga, unlike the Tome. So who knows.

On the other hand, the Tome enpowers greatly the user, and Falchion... well, it's power has varied across the series. In the original game, Falchion actually granted immunity to physical attacks (or was it ranged attacks? Either way, it made you immune to a lot of things). Nowadays it no longer has that, but one thing it has kept always is it's ability to recover HP to the wielder.  The Falchion is also meant to be used with the Fire Emblem, which comes with abilities of its own. Do we count the sword alone or both sword and shield? Though the fact the sword is not meant to be used alone means that, on that virtue alone, it could be inferior to the Tome by virtue of only being one half of the set, as the Tome is not part of a set. Although the original Falchion could be formidable on its own due to the immunity.

Actually, wyverns are technically dragons as well, and Falchion also was effective against wyverns as well. 

Also, the Shield of Seals is NOT required to wield Falchion. The Shield of Seal's main purpose has always been to keep the Earth Dragons sealed. Of course, the Shield of Seals in itself makes a person a demi-god in and of itself.

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Based on the prerequisites to wield them, I would rank from strongest to weakest:

Awakening's Falchion and Genealogy's Book of Naga requires Naga's brand.

Genealogy's other Holy Weapons, and arguably Echoes' Falchion, requires the brand of a non-Naga dragon.

Dark Dragon's Falchion, and Nagi's Falchion don't require a brand, but are established to be locked to Marth.

Awakening's Holy Weapons, including the Book of Naga, aren't locked and only require weapon rank.

Marth's Falchion used with the Shield of Seals is a wildcard; because of the Awakening ritual, it's probably not as strong as Awakening's Falchion, but it's probably stronger than the non-Naga brand weapons.

Uhh, the in regards to the Brand, Falchion actually did have a bloodline protection spell installed onto it by Gotoh, so only people that were related to Anri could wield it. But this is in assumption of both weapons at full power.

Edited by omegaxis1

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, wyverns are technically dragons as well, and Falchion also was effective against wyverns as well. 

Although they are called dragons, is there an indication the Jugdrali ones are actual dragons? In Archanea, their dragon riders do ride degenerated dragons (the ones called Flying Dragon that can also be fought on their own, like in New Mystery's Chapter 11 and some others), which is why Falchion is also effective against them, but nothing is said if the Jugdrali drakes are also Flying Dragons, or a different kind. In any case, the Jugdrali Holy Weapons do not inflict effective damage on them. So that either helps or hinders the argument of the Jugdrali Weapons being also effective against Dragons, depending if they are or not as the Archaneian ones. To be fair, since the Crusaders were fighting humans, it makes sense if the Holy Weapons were not made to actualy combat dragons, unlike over in Archaneia. Their big stat boosts (and the Tome of Naga's bypass of Loptyr's defensive barrier) are simply their main deal over any effectiveness.

The shield certainly is not needed, but it can't be denied that it was meant to be used in conjuction with the sword.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Although they are called dragons, is there an indication the Jugdrali ones are actual dragons? In Archanea, their dragon riders do ride degenerated dragons (the ones called Flying Dragon that can also be fought on their own, like in New Mystery's Chapter 11 and some others), which is why Falchion is also effective against them, but nothing is said if the Jugdrali drakes are also Flying Dragons, or a different kind. In any case, the Jugdrali Holy Weapons do not inflict effective damage on them. So that either helps or hinders the argument of the Jugdrali Weapons being also effective against Dragons, depending if they are or not as the Archaneian ones. To be fair, since the Crusaders were fighting humans, it makes sense if the Holy Weapons were not made to actualy combat dragons, unlike over in Archaneia. Their big stat boosts (and the Tome of Naga's bypass of Loptyr's defensive barrier) are simply their main deal over any effectiveness.

The shield certainly is not needed, but it can't be denied that it was meant to be used in conjuction with the sword.

Naga forged Falchion for the express purpose of defeating dragons, who were the major threat to humans in Archanea using her fang that is imbued with the Divine Dragon's breath essentially, which is what allows Divine Dragons to inflict effective damage against other dragons. Or more specifically, Falchion is imbued with Naga's Divine Dragon breath, since Naga is a one of a kind Divine Dragon. The Book of Naga was also likely built for the sole purpose to counter Loptyr. 

Actually, the Shield of Seals originally was just a pedestal that held the five gemstones. I don't think it was actually an actual shield, but many reforges later by humans turned it into a shied. Falchion and the Shield fo Seals were not truly meant to be used in conjunction.

Also, in regards to the stat boosts that Jugdral Weapons gives unlike Falchion which I recall someone mentioning here or somewhere else, I think that's more gameplay mechanic. Kaga stated that Falchion is made like the Jugdral weapons and has Dragonstones, that gives humans a lot of power, so that would mean that Falchion lore wise gives the same power boost, but it just didn't reflect it in the game itself. 

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Well, I'm still waiting on his response. Hopefully he'll come through soon. 

You know where I stand, but I am interested in other people's opinions. 

That's why I made this thread. We never got a chance to see other people make their choice on what they think.

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26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Naga forged Falchion for the express purpose of defeating dragons, who were the major threat to humans in Archanea using her fang that is imbued with the Divine Dragon's breath essentially, which is what allows Divine Dragons to inflict effective damage against other dragons. Or more specifically, Falchion is imbued with Naga's Divine Dragon breath, since Naga is a one of a kind Divine Dragon. The Book of Naga was also likely built for the sole purpose to counter Loptyr. 

Actually, the Shield of Seals originally was just a pedestal that held the five gemstones. I don't think it was actually an actual shield, but many reforges later by humans turned it into a shied. Falchion and the Shield fo Seals were not truly meant to be used in conjunction.

Also, in regards to the stat boosts that Jugdral Weapons gives unlike Falchion which I recall someone mentioning here or somewhere else, I think that's more gameplay mechanic. Kaga stated that Falchion is made like the Jugdral weapons and has Dragonstones, that gives humans a lot of power, so that would mean that Falchion lore wise gives the same power boost, but it just didn't reflect it in the game itself. 

That's why I made this thread. We never got a chance to see other people make their choice on what they think.

Is it stated it was simply a pedestal? Pedestal is what it's referred in the time of Awakening (only in the Japanese script, though), but back in Anri's time, it was Shield of Seals. The shield is not stated to have been reforged either during Anri's of Marth's time. The only thing ever done to it was the removal of the orbs by Adrah. If they weren't made to be used together, then why Naga made the sword and place it with the shield at the Fane? Naga actually made the sword long before Anri's time. And if the shield was not meant to be one, then why everyone refers to it as such and never as a pedestal?

Well, Falchion grants power in a different way. It can heal its user, and, in the original game, it blocked any incoming melee/ranged (still don't remember which) damage. I would say that was its power boost. Defensive, instead of offensive like the Jugdrali Weapons.

Another thing to consider is that, while Naga made the Falchion, it was Gotoh the one who blood bond it to Anri (Gotoh did the same to the Excalibur and Aura tomes with other people). This was even after he discarded his dragonstone, so it should not come to a surprise if Falchion's doesn't seem to grant as much power as the Jugdrali weapons. The Tome of Naga's bond was made by Naga herself, in comparison.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Is it stated it was simply a pedestal? Pedestal is what it's referred in the time of Awakening (only in the Japanese script, though), but back in Anri's time, it was Shield of Seals. The shield is not stated to have been reforged either during Anri's of Marth's time. The only thing ever done to it was the removal of the orbs by Adrah. If they weren't made to be used together, then why Naga made the sword and place it with the shield at the Fane? Naga actually made the sword long before Anri's time. And if the shield was not meant to be one, then why everyone refers to it as such and never as a pedestal?

Well, Falchion grants power in a different way. It can heal its user, and, in the original game, it blocked any incoming melee/ranged (still don't remember which) damage. I would say that was its power boost. Defensive, instead of offensive like the Jugdrali Weapons.

Think it was said in FE3. Not sure. Gotoh said that he didn't recognize the Fire Emblem because it looked different from how it originally was. We know that the Emblem can be reforged to look different, given that Awakening and Archanean Shield of Seals look different. As for why they were enshrined in the same place, Naga also placed Tiki there as well. But it wasn't meant to be used with the Shield of Seals, since the purpose of the Shield was to keep the Earth Dragons in slumber. That was why Naga had it forged. Also, despite being enshrined there originally, Falchion seemed to have been moved to the Ice Dragon Temple along with Tiki. I think Naga had them stored there originally because it was their place, but then after Adrah stole the Shield of Seals, Gotoh moved Falchion and Tiki to another area. 

Gameplay seems to have a selective form of reflecting the lore power. For example, the Shield of Seals is supposed to be able to use all the orbs power at once, but it completely lacks all the power of the orbs, and instead only gives the completed Starsphere's powers and the ability to banish Earth Dragons. So it's unclear as to how the empowerment really goes, but Anri did use it against Medeus, who was so powerful that he singlehandedly decimated Duke Cartas' entire army, and won, so it must have empowered him somehow.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Think it was said in FE3. Not sure. Gotoh said that he didn't recognize the Fire Emblem because it looked different from how it originally was. We know that the Emblem can be reforged to look different, given that Awakening and Archanean Shield of Seals look different. As for why they were enshrined in the same place, Naga also placed Tiki there as well. But it wasn't meant to be used with the Shield of Seals, since the purpose of the Shield was to keep the Earth Dragons in slumber. That was why Naga had it forged. Also, despite being enshrined there originally, Falchion seemed to have been moved to the Ice Dragon Temple along with Tiki. I think Naga had them stored there originally because it was their place, but then after Adrah stole the Shield of Seals, Gotoh moved Falchion and Tiki to another area. 

Gameplay seems to have a selective form of reflecting the lore power. For example, the Shield of Seals is supposed to be able to use all the orbs power at once, but it completely lacks all the power of the orbs, and instead only gives the completed Starsphere's powers and the ability to banish Earth Dragons. So it's unclear as to how the empowerment really goes, but Anri did use it against Medeus, who was so powerful that he singlehandedly decimated Duke Cartas' entire army, and won, so it must have empowered him somehow.

Hmm, I just looked both Mystery and New Mystery's scripts. Didn't found Gotoh not recognizing the shield. In fact, it's him the one who tells the Marth about the shield's true purpose. No, Tiki was not place to rest in the Fane. She was always in the Ice Temple, except when Bantu took her away. She's in the Fane in Shadow Dragon because Garneph captured her and mind controlled her to guard the Fane so Marth wouldn't get the Orbs that were still there. If the shield was only meant to be a seal, then it would be placed in the Dragon's Altar, not the Fane. Heck, since it can also keep Tiki's degeneration at bay, the fact it was also far from the Ice Temple shows it doesn't have to be place at any specific point. Them being still stored together still means something, as Naga used them both during the first war against the Earth Dragons.

Certainyl, it's gameplay and story segregation. Well, as I said, the sword can heal, and it originally could repel attacks before it was retconned out (kinda like the Earth Dragons, they too were immune to ranged attacks, but that too was removed). That's the enpowering right there.

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12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hmm, I just looked both Mystery and New Mystery's scripts. Didn't found Gotoh not recognizing the shield. In fact, it's him the one who tells the Marth about the shield's true purpose. No, Tiki was not place to rest in the Fane. She was always in the Ice Temple, except when Bantu took her away. She's in the Fane in Shadow Dragon because Garneph captured her and mind controlled her to guard the Fane so Marth wouldn't get the Orbs that were still there. If the shield was only meant to be a seal, then it would be placed in the Dragon's Altar, not the Fane. Heck, since it can also keep Tiki's degeneration at bay, the fact it was also far from the Ice Temple shows it doesn't have to be place at any specific point. Them being still stored together still means something, as Naga used them both during the first war against the Earth Dragons.

Certainyl, it's gameplay and story segregation. Well, as I said, the sword can heal, and it originally could repel attacks before it was retconned out (kinda like the Earth Dragons, they too were immune to ranged attacks, but that too was removed). That's the enpowering right there.

Found it:

Quote

Gato:
You still don’t understand?
The Emblem shield you’re carrying is the stolen Shield of Seals.
To be honest, it was only recently that I noticed; its exterior had completely changed…
After stealing it from Raman Temple, the thief removed its jewels and sold them off as treasures.

Gotoh didn't recognize it originally because the appearance had changed by the time he finally sees it here. 

My bad, mistook that. Yes, Tiki was in the Ice Dragon Temple. Though that same temple is where Falchion was placed in by Gotoh when Anri went to retrieve it. And the Shield's existence was just to keep the seal in check. The Fane of Raman was built by Divine Dragons to house their treasures, so Naga enshrined it there. So it would actually also make sense as to why Falchion was stored there as well, since that is also another treasure made. Also, it's unsure whether Naga truly used either during the war. Humans seems to depict that she did, but Xane explained that the Shield of Seals was created after the war to ensure the Earth Dragons remain asleep. Falchion's date of forging was also unknown but since it was created for humans to use, its a safe bet to say that it was also forged after the war. 

Except Falchion clearly couldn't stop dragon attacks from working in FE1, so not sure if that is with the lore. Lot of lore changes or just doesn't translate perfectly into the game. I mean, Grima should actually be immune to all forms of attack storywise except for Falchion, as Lucina mentioned that after performing a partial awakening on Falchion, she can hurt Grima, indicating that conventional weapons actually can't hurt him.

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Found it:

Gotoh didn't recognize it originally because the appearance had changed by the time he finally sees it here. 

My bad, mistook that. Yes, Tiki was in the Ice Dragon Temple. Though that same temple is where Falchion was placed in by Gotoh when Anri went to retrieve it. And the Shield's existence was just to keep the seal in check. The Fane of Raman was built by Divine Dragons to house their treasures, so Naga enshrined it there. So it would actually also make sense as to why Falchion was stored there as well, since that is also another treasure made. Also, it's unsure whether Naga truly used either during the war. Humans seems to depict that she did, but Xane explained that the Shield of Seals was created after the war to ensure the Earth Dragons remain asleep. Falchion's date of forging was also unknown but since it was created for humans to use, its a safe bet to say that it was also forged after the war. 

Except Falchion clearly couldn't stop dragon attacks from working in FE1, so not sure if that is with the lore. Lot of lore changes or just doesn't translate perfectly into the game. I mean, Grima should actually be immune to all forms of attack storywise except for Falchion, as Lucina mentioned that after performing a partial awakening on Falchion, she can hurt Grima, indicating that conventional weapons actually can't hurt him.

Well of course Gotoh moved it. Once the Shield was stolen better to move the sword somewhere else. Even back then, it was referred as a shield. Why call it a shield if it was only meant to be a seal? Because it was also a shield.

Not a dragon's, that is true. Not that it would be meaningless, though, for Medeuth had plenty of humanoid followers (whether manaketes or actual humans who choose or were forced to serve him) where the sword's granting of immunity would still work. Combine that with the healing power, and it makes sense Anri would suceed where Cartas failed.

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well of course Gotoh moved it. Once the Shield was stolen better to move the sword somewhere else. Even back then, it was referred as a shield. Why call it a shield if it was only meant to be a seal? Because it was also a shield.

Not a dragon's, that is true. Not that it would be meaningless, though, for Medeuth had plenty of humanoid followers (whether manaketes or actual humans who choose or were forced to serve him) where the sword's granting of immunity would still work. Combine that with the healing power, and it makes sense Anri would suceed where Cartas failed.

I know, I said that already. XD

But this shows that Gotoh did not recognize the Shield of Seals. Also, I think it was Xane that said it was a pedestal. I dunno why it was called Shield originally either. Kaga is the one that makes up these names. Probably cause it was made with the intention of shielding the humans from dragons? Could be that. *shrugs*

But Anri was fighting Medeus one on one, though. So not sure exactly how the "defensive" skills would actually work on the actual dragon. Also, there were no human followers for Medeus in the War of Liberation. That was composed of purely Medeus and other dragons. Medeus only accepted human allies in the War of Shadows.

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I know, I said that already. XD

But this shows that Gotoh did not recognize the Shield of Seals. Also, I think it was Xane that said it was a pedestal. I dunno why it was called Shield originally either. Kaga is the one that makes up these names. Probably cause it was made with the intention of shielding the humans from dragons? Could be that. *shrugs*

But Anri was fighting Medeus one on one, though. So not sure exactly how the "defensive" skills would actually work on the actual dragon. Also, there were no human followers for Medeus in the War of Liberation. That was composed of purely Medeus and other dragons. Medeus only accepted human allies in the War of Shadows.

It's not really stated in what context Gotoh refers to not recognizing it, and thus "exterior completely changed". Considering it spent quite a time as a decoration in Archanea, who says the design isn't shared elsewhere, like in actual Archanean shields? There's no evidence to prove either way, but I would think the design isn't really that unique and Gotoh's initial lack of recognition as THE shield is due to the lack of orbs. No, Xane never calls it a pedestal. Once again, Pedestal is what it's called in Awakening's time, in the Japanese Script. Before that, it was Shield of Seals.

Anri still had to fought his way to Medeus. Also, not every manakete uses a dragonstone. It's quite implied the human enemies fought in Anri's Way are manaketes, for once. And we know people like Gotoh and Xane also don't use their dragonstones anymore. It wouldn't be a surprise if Falchion's defensive ability saw use against those manaketes who relied in human weapons rather than a dragonstone.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's not really stated in what context Gotoh refers to not recognizing it, and thus "exterior completely changed". Considering it spent quite a time as a decoration in Archanea, who says the design isn't shared elsewhere, like in actual Archanean shields? There's no evidence to prove either way, but I would think the design isn't really that unique and Gotoh's initial lack of recognition as THE shield is due to the lack of orbs. No, Xane never calls it a pedestal. Once again, Pedestal is what it's called in Awakening's time, in the Japanese Script. Before that, it was Shield of Seals.

Anri still had to fought his way to Medeus. Also, not every manakete uses a dragonstone. It's quite implied the human enemies fought in Anri's Way are manaketes, for once. And we know people like Gotoh and Xane also don't use their dragonstones anymore. It wouldn't be a surprise if Falchion's defensive ability saw use against those manaketes who relied in human weapons rather than a dragonstone.

He said that only recently he noticed it, and then follows it up by saying that the exterior changed. This implies he didn't recognize it at first, and only after getting a good look at it not, he realizes that it is indeed the Shield of Seals. Also, the Fire Emblem is a treasure of Archanean. They wouldn't actually make duplicates of a national treasure like that since it demeans the value of the original one. So no, the design wouldn't actually resemble that of Archanean shields. 

Ah, Xane does call it shield, but he also refers to it as a pedestal as well. Not sure when the Fire Emblem was called a pedestal in the Japanese script though for Awakening. 

Dolhr was created for manaketes, and based on the fact that manaketes have their dragonstones, they would all have to be dragons. I don't recall there being any implication of there being any manaketes that didn't transform in the Dolhr army or any manaketes even using human weapons. Manaketes are known to actually be very frail in their human forms, and all the manaketes fought are in fact very low on stats without their dragonstones, so its highly unlikely that there would be many manaketes that could keep up with human combat without their dragonstones.

Furthermore, even so, this doesn't actually disprove anything though. Anri fought Medeus singlehandedly. The Falchion protection in FE1 doesn't work on dragons. Meaning that Anri fought Medeus without that protection, and Medeus was extremely powerful, and Anri still won. So the Falchion had to still empower him if there was a dragonstone in it.

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20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He said that only recently he noticed it, and then follows it up by saying that the exterior changed. This implies he didn't recognize it at first, and only after getting a good look at it not, he realizes that it is indeed the Shield of Seals. Also, the Fire Emblem is a treasure of Archanean. They wouldn't actually make duplicates of a national treasure like that since it demeans the value of the original one. So no, the design wouldn't actually resemble that of Archanean shields. 

Ah, Xane does call it shield, but he also refers to it as a pedestal as well. Not sure when the Fire Emblem was called a pedestal in the Japanese script though for Awakening. 

Dolhr was created for manaketes, and based on the fact that manaketes have their dragonstones, they would all have to be dragons. I don't recall there being any implication of there being any manaketes that didn't transform in the Dolhr army or any manaketes even using human weapons. Manaketes are known to actually be very frail in their human forms, and all the manaketes fought are in fact very low on stats without their dragonstones, so its highly unlikely that there would be many manaketes that could keep up with human combat without their dragonstones.

Furthermore, even so, this doesn't actually disprove anything though. Anri fought Medeus singlehandedly. The Falchion protection in FE1 doesn't work on dragons. Meaning that Anri fought Medeus without that protection, and Medeus was extremely powerful, and Anri still won. So the Falchion had to still empower him if there was a dragonstone in it.

That still implies there was still something that made him recognize it. And if "the exterior compeltely changed", then what was it, then? More the reason, it becomes a symbol to replicate. And it's up to personal opinion if it would devalue the original or not. Perhaps they thought it didn't.

Hmm, where exactly does it call it a pedestal? From what I looked up, it's always called Pedestal in the Japanese script of Awakening. I think there was discussion about it back when Awakening was still new. Maybe you aren't aware since you just joined last year, unless you lurked back then, but I do remember people commenting about a retcon/change regarding the Dragon's Altar/Table and the Fire Emblem in Awakening.

It's not a guarantee manaketes would keep them. Bantu lost his once, and Gotoh and Xane discarded theirs. That shows manaketes can be without them, and the probabilty isn't that low, either. Also, that's once more gameplay and story segregation. Manaketes are treated as a class, and since stone give stat boosts, then their base stats have to be low to balance it out. I think that's also the case for Bantu and Tiki, in certain games. If there are manaketes using standard weaponry, they would simply be labeled as a human class anyway, so they would be indistinguishible (Gotoh is still a powerful mage, Xane has his shapeshifting, etc.). Is there an actual indication lore-wise that manaketes are weak even by human standards? As I know, it's not stated anywhere in Archanean lore. In fact, since the dragonstone is meant to be an external storage for their power, then it sounds like they could control how much they left in their actual bodies when taking human form. Choosing to be weak then sounds like a bizarre choice.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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