Which side is more moral to you: Hoshido or Nohr?

[joshcja]

Nhor has the perfect incarnation of raw, unadulturated, Justice. Also Elise.

Hoshido has food jokes running the country and some malnurished little girl in straight up rags working in rice fields.

Gonna go Nhor. Where even the "Starving beaten down villagers" are able to afford some sick threads, own homes not made of mud and grass, and seem suspiciously well fed.

Edited February 17, 2018 by joshcja

[Køkø]

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

 

Hoshido has food jokes running the country and some malnurished little girl in straight up rags working in rice fields.

Gonna go Nhor. Where even the "Starving beaten down villagers" are able to afford some sick threads, own homes not made of mud and grass, and seem suspiciously well fed.

Lol, that is true. Never noticed that until you pointed it out.

[Erik-a]

T

On 2/16/2018 at 9:59 AM, Slumber said:

Fates couldn't go more out of its way to paint Nohr as the bad guy. They're the aggressors, they conquer, they love killing, they seemingly have no problem('cept Scarlet) obeying Garon after he's been replaced with dragon spit that's been injected with lethal doses of pure evil, and Peri. Just Peri. They live in a nearly pure black wasteland where it's seemingly always night for crying out loud.

Hoshido, meanwhile, is a peaceful land full of peaceful people who just want peace, but have to fight back against the evil Nohr army.

That describes the games perfectly. Nohr is portrayed as evil and ruthless, and since I finished Conquest recently, Corrin's siblings aren't evil at all. I love how when Garon was testing Corrin when she returned to Nohr after betraying Hoshido, her adoptive siblings came to her aid. Forgive me if my memory is wrong here.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, Erik-a said:

T

That describes the games perfectly. Nohr is portrayed as evil and ruthless, and since I finished Conquest recently, Corrin's siblings aren't evil at all. I love how when Garon was testing Corrin when she returned to Nohr after betraying Hoshido, her adoptive siblings came to her aid. Forgive me if my memory is wrong here.

I'd argue that Camilla is a pretty evil person who just loves Corrin, and Xander is loyal to his father to a fault. Both of them have strong evil tendencies. Xander tries to put on a "good" face that comes through in Conquest, but it falls apart in all kinds of ways in Birthright. 

Leo and Elise are a bit more gray/good since both of them were opposed to what Garon was doing and just wanted the fighting to stop, but Xander and especially Camilla are debatable. 

By comparison, I can't say any of the Hoshido siblings are evil, since the ones that are most loyal to their country are fighting for the right side. Takumi's just kind of a dick, but not evil. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Slumber

[Erik-a]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

I'd argue that Camilla is a pretty evil person who just loves Corrin, and Xander is loyal to his father to a fault. Both of them have strong evil tendencies. Xander tries to put on a "good" face that comes through in Conquest, but it falls apart in all kinds of ways in Birthright. 

Leo and Elise are a bit more gray/good, but Xander and especially Camilla are debatable. 

Now that I think about it, Xander is extremely loyal to Nohr, and especially it shows in chapter six of Birthright when Corrin chooses to fight for Hoshido. In the My Castle part in Conquest, Camilla says something along the lines of "Tell me who I need to kill" when talking to Corrin. I don't remember the quote exactly, though. You have a good point.

[Sunsurge]

Yeah, it was just an awful game all the way around. But Hoshido is more "moral", but there's no gray area in the game and I think that's what makes it so bad. And I hate the whole "blood family" vs. "real family", because clearly you'd choose your real family, because blood doesn't mean crap. But they tried to make it seem so "wrong" to choose the people who loved/raised you (clearly not the father, but the siblings did), over people you literally JUST met and claim to be your 'blood'. 

But there's no gray area with Nohr or Hoshido. So Hoshido is naturally more moral because they're portrayed as "light". I don't think anyone could ever say Nohr was moral in any capacity. They really should have made Nohr more gray area, but had Corrin create an underground task force to fight from the inside. Because they portrayed it as Corrin fighting from the inside against a corrupt Kingdom, but that's not how the story played out at all, and I would have appreciated it more if they just made Corrin someone strong enough to defy the King, without choosing Hoshido (who I didn't like). But Corrin in Nohr just comes across as weak and pathetic. And Corrin in Hoshido is "good" but imo, pretty damn ruthless for turning against people who loved/raised them their ENTIRE life.

And Revelations is the better of the two (for obvious reasons), but the other stories are so bad, that it doesn't make it any better I guess.

[Corrin_Kamui]

9 hours ago, Sunsurge said:

Yeah, it was just an awful game all the way around. But Hoshido is more "moral", but there's no gray area in the game and I think that's what makes it so bad. And I hate the whole "blood family" vs. "real family", because clearly you'd choose your real family, because blood doesn't mean crap. But they tried to make it seem so "wrong" to choose the people who loved/raised you (clearly not the father, but the siblings did), over people you literally JUST met and claim to be your 'blood'. 

But there's no gray area with Nohr or Hoshido. So Hoshido is naturally more moral because they're portrayed as "light". I don't think anyone could ever say Nohr was moral in any capacity. They really should have made Nohr more gray area, but had Corrin create an underground task force to fight from the inside. Because they portrayed it as Corrin fighting from the inside against a corrupt Kingdom, but that's not how the story played out at all, and I would have appreciated it more if they just made Corrin someone strong enough to defy the King, without choosing Hoshido (who I didn't like). But Corrin in Nohr just comes across as weak and pathetic. And Corrin in Hoshido is "good" but imo, pretty damn ruthless for turning against people who loved/raised them their ENTIRE life.

And Revelations is the better of the two (for obvious reasons), but the other stories are so bad, that it doesn't make it any better I guess.

Let's not overlook that Nohr kidnapped and brainwashed you here.

 

There's plenty of reason for Corrin not to choose them even ignoring that in Birthright Corrin isn't choosing their birth family. They are choosing to oppose Garon and even flat out beg Xander to help them.

 

Choosing Nohr is "wrong" because it's purely selfish and naive on Corrin's part. Where Conquest screwed up is in trying to portray Corrin as a hero instead of pulling them over the coals for being a selfish idiot.

 

The core theme of the game is Justice vs Loyalty.

 

Also, I hate to tell you this but Awakening was just as bad as Fates in having a black and white plot.

[Ertrick36]

26 minutes ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

Also, I hate to tell you this but Awakening was just as bad as Fates in having a black and white plot.

Though that wasn't really Awakening's point to begin with.  It was about changing a bleak destiny foretold by the children of the playable characters from the future.  It never once tried to present itself as anything but black and white in the moral department, while Fates was advertised as a game that would have shades of grey.  It's all a matter of the themes the games focused on... sort of like if you said I'm an incompetent person compared to someone else because they're better at playing guitar than I am.  Not what I'm supposed to be good at, and Awakening's not supposed to be about moral greys.

Pretty irrelevant point in this discussion regardless.  There was no reason to bring it up in the first place unless there's something in the discussion I'm missing here.

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

I'd argue that Camilla is a pretty evil person who just loves Corrin, and Xander is loyal to his father to a fault. Both of them have strong evil tendencies. Xander tries to put on a "good" face that comes through in Conquest, but it falls apart in all kinds of ways in Birthright. 

Leo and Elise are a bit more gray/good since both of them were opposed to what Garon was doing and just wanted the fighting to stop, but Xander and especially Camilla are debatable. 

By comparison, I can't say any of the Hoshido siblings are evil, since the ones that are most loyal to their country are fighting for the right side. Takumi's just kind of a dick, but not evil. 

If we're to go by the traditional morality chart that D&D players use, I might peg Xander as lawful good myself.  Sure, he doesn't always do the right thing at times, but his general attitude is very true to a traditional paladin; worst case scenario, he's neutral good.  Camilla's fairly evil, though; I could definitely see her committing atrocities in Corrin's name if he/she asked her to, and if Corrin was captured, she'd stop at nothing to get him/her back.  Camilla's the kind of lady who I think doesn't necessarily believes in a moral "low".

And Elise is definitely good; probably good neutral, mostly because she's still sneaking out after curfew and sneaking heals to prisoners when she wasn't allowed to.  Leo, I think, would be a true neutral... or maybe a lawful neutral.

I also don't think a single Hoshidan royal could be pegged as anything but good.  Maybe varying degrees of good, but even Takumi does what he does because he wants to protect those he cares about.

[Corrin_Kamui]

19 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Though that wasn't really Awakening's point to begin with.  It was about changing a bleak destiny foretold by the children of the playable characters from the future.  It never once tried to present itself as anything but black and white in the moral department, while Fates was advertised as a game that would have shades of grey.  It's all a matter of the themes the games focused on... sort of like if you said I'm an incompetent person compared to someone else because they're better at playing guitar than I am.  Not what I'm supposed to be good at, and Awakening's not supposed to be about moral greys.

Pretty irrelevant point in this discussion regardless.  There was no reason to bring it up in the first place unless there's something in the discussion I'm missing here.

If we're to go by the traditional morality chart that D&D players use, I might peg Xander as lawful good myself.  Sure, he doesn't always do the right thing at times, but his general attitude is very true to a traditional paladin; worst case scenario, he's neutral good.  Camilla's fairly evil, though; I could definitely see her committing atrocities in Corrin's name if he/she asked her to, and if Corrin was captured, she'd stop at nothing to get him/her back.  Camilla's the kind of lady who I think doesn't necessarily believes in a moral "low".

And Elise is definitely good; probably good neutral, mostly because she's still sneaking out after curfew and sneaking heals to prisoners when she wasn't allowed to.  Leo, I think, would be a true neutral... or maybe a lawful neutral.

I also don't think a single Hoshidan royal could be pegged as anything but good.  Maybe varying degrees of good, but even Takumi does what he does because he wants to protect those he cares about.

Where exactly was it promised that Fates would have a morally grey plot?*I'm not being sarcastic here I'm genuinely asking*

 

As far I've seen Fates plot was about Justice vs Loyalty and to me it delivered on that front.

 

Awakening is in the same boat as Fates, it makes an utterly pathetic attempt at trying to make the game's main conflict not black and white*Gangrel and Chrom's throwaway lines about the atrocities Chrom's father committed against Plegia and Emmeryn coming of as hypocritical and condescending to others* only to turn around and make Gangrel a one dimensional despot, Emmeryn a saint and Ylisse the world's protector against evil and the less said about it's later arc the better.

 

So I consider it a bit strange when Awakening fans criticize Fates' story for having the exact same pitfall as Awakening's.

 

 

[Ertrick36]

@Corrin_Kamui Again, I must say that I fail to see how Awakening is relevant to the discussion of Fates' morality, and I will not talk about Awakening ever again in this thread unless it becomes relevant through other discussions.

In regards to Fates' advertised themes, I regret that I cannot conjure up official sources at this time as they've pretty much been buried in time and cannot be dug up easily.  Regardless, I think it's heavily implied simply due to the whole "white vs. black" conflict.  Particularly the "black" part, which would either imply that you're to be a straight up villain or will be shown why that side is inclined to commit what the other side sees as atrocities and realize the grey areas of the war.

Oh, and there's the fact that Azura's song compounds the theme of grey morality by literally singing "you are the oceans grey waves".

[Corrin_Kamui]

22 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

@Corrin_Kamui Again, I must say that I fail to see how Awakening is relevant to the discussion of Fates' morality, and I will not talk about Awakening ever again in this thread unless it becomes relevant through other discussions.

In regards to Fates' advertised themes, I regret that I cannot conjure up official sources at this time as they've pretty much been buried in time and cannot be dug up easily.  Regardless, I think it's heavily implied simply due to the whole "white vs. black" conflict.  Particularly the "black" part, which would either imply that you're to be a straight up villain or will be shown why that side is inclined to commit what the other side sees as atrocities and realize the grey areas of the war.

Oh, and there's the fact that Azura's song compounds the theme of grey morality by literally singing "you are the oceans grey waves".

It implies your choosing you're "family" over your sense of morality to me.

Not exactly an uncommon theme.

Or it could be referring to Corrin belonging in a sense to both Nohr and Hoshido in other words in the middle of the two sides hence being "grey".

Edited February 21, 2018 by Corrin_Kamui

[Slumber]

8 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

If we're to go by the traditional morality chart that D&D players use, I might peg Xander as lawful good myself.  Sure, he doesn't always do the right thing at times, but his general attitude is very true to a traditional paladin; worst case scenario, he's neutral good.  Camilla's fairly evil, though; I could definitely see her committing atrocities in Corrin's name if he/she asked her to, and if Corrin was captured, she'd stop at nothing to get him/her back.  Camilla's the kind of lady who I think doesn't necessarily believes in a moral "low".

And Elise is definitely good; probably good neutral, mostly because she's still sneaking out after curfew and sneaking heals to prisoners when she wasn't allowed to.  Leo, I think, would be a true neutral... or maybe a lawful neutral.

I also don't think a single Hoshidan royal could be pegged as anything but good.  Maybe varying degrees of good, but even Takumi does what he does because he wants to protect those he cares about.

Birthright Xander is pretty Lawful Evil. He's not on the "I'm Evil but I obey the laws in public and get away with technicalities while committing horrible atrocities behind the scenes" like somebody like Lex Luthor, but he follows the way you'd typically see Lawful Evil in D&D. He obeys an evil empire, questions it pretty flippantly, and is too far off the deepend to be saved and pretty much kills himself(He confronts Corrin hoping he/she might kill him) because he feels guilty for not doing anything... And, well, also accidentally killing Elise in a fit of rage. Those are not the actions of a Lawful Good character, or even a Lawful Neutral. That's pretty solidly in the Evil camp, as are a lot of "My country, right or wrong" characters. And he's barely that far from becoming this again in Conquest. Difference being that he eventually sees Corrin's PoV and finally rebels against Garon. He might balance out and get pegged down to Lawful Neutral, but he commits way too many crimes in Garon's name without any hint that he wants to stop to be Lawful Good. 

As for Leo, I'd argue Neutral Good. He rebels against Garon on both paths because he really doesn't like what Garon's doing. Corrin's actions push him to finally abandon Garon, but it's pretty strongly hinted that he's been done Garon's nonsense for a while, and that he was the first sibling to realize something wasn't right with Garon. He might be Lawful Neutral in the sense that he is just sick of killing in Garon's name and actually doesn't really give two shakes about Hoshido, but I generally see more good in Leo than that. 

Elise is yeah, probably Neutral Good. Good kid, but mostly just cares about her big brothers and big sisters. Hard to tell what she'd do without them. 

I'd say look at this in a vacuum. In a world without Corrin, who would be the first to rebel against/leave Nohr? My money would be on Leo, with Elise probably coming with him. Xander would probably never leave, and would be complicit in the many, many atrocities that Nohr would continue to commit. He might feel bad, but he'd never do anything, because story Xander is an awful person. Camilla, likewise, would probably never leave, because in a world without Corrin, the only thing left she really cares about is killing, and Nohr lets her keep doing that. She'd probably be the first to go try to kill Leo and Elise, if anything.

[Sunsurge]

11 hours ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

Let's not overlook that Nohr kidnapped and brainwashed you here.

There's plenty of reason for Corrin not to choose them even ignoring that in Birthright Corrin isn't choosing their birth family. They are choosing to oppose Garon and even flat out beg Xander to help them.

Choosing Nohr is "wrong" because it's purely selfish and naive on Corrin's part. Where Conquest screwed up is in trying to portray Corrin as a hero instead of pulling them over the coals for being a selfish idiot.

The core theme of the game is Justice vs Loyalty.

Also, I hate to tell you this but Awakening was just as bad as Fates in having a black and white plot.

I hate to tell you his, but I don't think Awakening had a dynamic, well thought out plot. Sorry that you thought being petty was a smart move here. I completely think Awakening had a very black and white plot. But the concept was interesting and despite many failings, the black and white plot at least worked out for what it was trying to accomplish.

Fates's concept was TOO interesting to be handled so poorly in such a black and white fashion, which you would know if you read my post.

Secondly, I know choosing Nohr is 'wrong'. That's my point. They never focus on the fact that it's wrong. They imply it vaguely, but for the most part make Corrin just that. A selfish, weak, idiot. And I hate characters like that. Either make Corrin heartless and evil, or make them take things into their own hands (but not in the way they attempted to do in Revelations). I agree that choosing to oppose Garon is the smart move, all I was saying was that they didn't do a good job with the two paths, and keeping it so black and white.

They should have made both games a lot more grey for the concept to work.

The theme of the game was Justice vs. Loyalty, but they played it up more as Blood vs. The Family that Raised You. That was my issue. They never harped on the fact that choosing Nohr was SO blatantly awful. It's just brushed under the rug. When they choose Hoshido they also brush it under the rug that you're betraying your entire family (I don't count Garon), without so much of a *real* second thought. I just thought the writing for both routes was awful, but Hoshido's writing was only SLIGHTLY better, simply because it was the "right" choice. That's my issue with the game.

And me liking Awakening doesn't mean I love the story, or am so blind to it's faults. So next time you're disputing something, stick to the topic. There was no other reason, except pettiness to bring in Awakening.  

[joshcja]

13 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

I also don't think a single Hoshidan royal could be pegged as anything but good.  Maybe varying degrees of good, but even Takumi does what he does because he wants to protect those he cares about.

Ignoring CQ Tacomeat.

Ryoma:Shared route: Killsteals like a mother and actively tries to kill his family in the shared route then fights some nerd instead of helping his family after they get bombed and surrounded. Then he just peaces out. Has more assasins on personal retainer than the entirety of Nhor.

BR: When the war proper begins he spends most of it macin on Scarlette in lobster cosplay, commits genocide, and then he just kills fools until it's time to give the last surviving Nhorian a bowl of rice.

CQ: One up's Garons evil in BR by attacking the primary medicinal distributor of Nhor, then he just chills out till ch25 where he sits and watches you kill his entire army and most trusted servants so he can handle a personal grudge.

Taco: Shared route: Peaces out despite standing right next to you when the bomb goes off and then wants your head on a pole. He also admits to knowledge of Oboro's actual past but basicly lies to her for years to keep her killin lady boner aimed at nhor rather than the hoshidian nobility.

BR: Walks up and tries to gank you until the power of songboners calms him down. Then he just betrays you again in ch16. Kinda a dick. Also commits genocide.

CQ: I said ignore this but remember when he walked into peace talks just to put 2 in Elise's chest?

Hinoka: Shared: Peaces out when mom explodes despite being right there. Lets Sakura die instead of just picking her up on the peg and flying over to the person she's spent her entire adult life hunting down.

BR: Tries to get the Nhorcast to kill more Nhorians faster with the power of boners. Down with genocide.

CQ: She exists here?

Sakura: Chill as fuck little sister. Inferior to Elise in every way though. Genocide.

All in Rev: Fucking die!!! Ok we bros now.

By contrast the Nhoraly constantly risk death, banishment, or worse in the name of humanitarian and family values. True they do so pragmaticly (sans Elise who is no-fear-renegade-without-a-cause) but lets all remember that these (fictional) people maintain these values despite a horrifying and straight up abusive life. Hell even BR Xander gives you every chance imaginable, acting only when you try to straight murder his father, and even then, at the very end, he only swung because it came down to Corrin vs everything else he loved. 

------------------------------------

There is a pretty good reason Garon is cartoon villan evil. Namely it's the only way portaying hoshido as good is even remotely plausible.

For giggles let's extract Garon entirely. The whole plot is kickstarted by Corrin refusing to kill a pair of assasin PoW's (merciful by the standards of the time) then runnin dick first into a hoshidian border fort (why does this exist outside of external agression? There's a magic wall around the country) when his/her orders were to observe it, and then spoileragi asspulls a bombsword. In response Hoshido under Ryoma makes the rational choice of declaring total war on Nhor. Nhor then defends it's borders. Your choice dictates a surgical strike to remove the leadership of one side. Nhor is pretty chill as invading armies go (ignoring the open rebelion in Cheve, that's uuuh what happens yo.) Hoshido burns the country to the ground,salts the earth, and mercs a few neighboring nations and city states in the process.

So yeah, Garon pretty much exists to make betraying the folks who raised you from infancy for a band of hatemurdering dicks you just met and have every reason to hate (Sans Sakura) look remotely appealing.

Proud Nhorianscum till death yo~

Edited February 21, 2018 by joshcja

[anniec8711]

On 2/20/2018 at 6:08 PM, Corrin_Kamui said:

Let's not overlook that Nohr kidnapped and brainwashed you here.

Kidnapped? I prefer the term "Surprise Adoption" 

[joshcja]

12 hours ago, anniec8711 said:

Kidnapped? I prefer the term "Surprise Adoption" 

Truth~
 

You can't kidnap an orpah yo.

[DragonFlames]

On 21.2.2018 at 4:14 PM, joshcja said:

Ignoring CQ Tacomeat.

Ryoma:Shared route: Killsteals like a mother and actively tries to kill his family in the shared route then fights some nerd instead of helping his family after they get bombed and surrounded. Then he just peaces out. Has more assasins on personal retainer than the entirety of Nhor.

BR: When the war proper begins he spends most of it macin on Scarlette in lobster cosplay, commits genocide, and then he just kills fools until it's time to give the last surviving Nhorian a bowl of rice.

CQ: One up's Garons evil in BR by attacking the primary medicinal distributor of Nhor, then he just chills out till ch25 where he sits and watches you kill his entire army and most trusted servants so he can handle a personal grudge.

Taco: Shared route: Peaces out despite standing right next to you when the bomb goes off and then wants your head on a pole. He also admits to knowledge of Oboro's actual past but basicly lies to her for years to keep her killin lady boner aimed at nhor rather than the hoshidian nobility.

BR: Walks up and tries to gank you until the power of songboners calms him down. Then he just betrays you again in ch16. Kinda a dick. Also commits genocide.

CQ: I said ignore this but remember when he walked into peace talks just to put 2 in Elise's chest?

Hinoka: Shared: Peaces out when mom explodes despite being right there. Lets Sakura die instead of just picking her up on the peg and flying over to the person she's spent her entire adult life hunting down.

BR: Tries to get the Nhorcast to kill more Nhorians faster with the power of boners. Down with genocide.

CQ: She exists here?

Sakura: Chill as fuck little sister. Inferior to Elise in every way though. Genocide.

All in Rev: Fucking die!!! Ok we bros now.

By contrast the Nhoraly constantly risk death, banishment, or worse in the name of humanitarian and family values. True they do so pragmaticly (sans Elise who is no-fear-renegade-without-a-cause) but lets all remember that these (fictional) people maintain these values despite a horrifying and straight up abusive life. Hell even BR Xander gives you every chance imaginable, acting only when you try to straight murder his father, and even then, at the very end, he only swung because it came down to Corrin vs everything else he loved. 

------------------------------------

There is a pretty good reason Garon is cartoon villan evil. Namely it's the only way portaying hoshido as good is even remotely plausible.

For giggles let's extract Garon entirely. The whole plot is kickstarted by Corrin refusing to kill a pair of assasin PoW's (merciful by the standards of the time) then runnin dick first into a hoshidian border fort (why does this exist outside of external agression? There's a magic wall around the country) when his/her orders were to observe it, and then spoileragi asspulls a bombsword. In response Hoshido under Ryoma makes the rational choice of declaring total war on Nhor. Nhor then defends it's borders. Your choice dictates a surgical strike to remove the leadership of one side. Nhor is pretty chill as invading armies go (ignoring the open rebelion in Cheve, that's uuuh what happens yo.) Hoshido burns the country to the ground,salts the earth, and mercs a few neighboring nations and city states in the process.

So yeah, Garon pretty much exists to make betraying the folks who raised you from infancy for a band of hatemurdering dicks you just met and have every reason to hate (Sans Sakura) look remotely appealing.

Proud Nhorianscum till death yo~

You know, as out-of-the-blue as this may sound, I think you're right. You're absolutely right in everything that you say here. I never thought about it that way, but reading this finally enlightened me as to why the Hoshidan Royalty (except for Sakura) and the rest of Hoshido always bothered me. It's true: take Garon out of the story and choosing Hoshido is the most amoral thing you can do. I want to add a few things, if you don't mind:

1.)
Only Hoshidans are ever openly hostile. None of the Nohrian characters ever hold any grudges against Hoshido, justified or otherwise, and it's only the Hoshidans who throw derogatory terms at their "neighbours" and don't even stop to CONSIDER what the Nohrian people must feel like under Garon's oppressive rule and an idiot as the next in line to the throne until it's blatantly pointed out to them. Regardless of justification or lack thereof, this isn't really something someone who is supposed to be "morally good" should be like.

Or do you remember any of the past lords ever openly despising opposing kingdoms as a whole and throwing racial slurs at them? No, they all knew that they were fighting humans just like themselves and treated their conflict as such. It was only ever whatever villain they were after they had a hate-boner for, rightfully so, in many cases. Not the case in Hoshido, where all you ever hear about Nohr is "they are evil, not human and we are better than them". Kind of sounds like something someone from the 1930's said about people from a certain religion, don't you think?

1.Lobster)
Ryoma basically attacks you for no reason after you chose Nohr, because, you know, joining total strangers as opposed to the people you grew up with makes sense, and later is stupid enough to believe that Corrin would return to Hoshido after he freaking BLACKMAILS them with Elise's life, who, as suggested by their interactions and Corrin's own words in all three games, is probably the sibling Corrin is closest to.

And on Birhright, as you stated, he just effs off without saying a word to fight another's battle for them instead of, you know, take care of the kingdom he is the freaking CROWN PRINCE of, that just lost it's queen and is thus unstable and probably in a state of panic. But no, counter-invading Nohr on your own is more important than your own home's security, not to mention the fact that you traumatized your siblings, who just lost their mother, even further by making them believe you're dead for the first third of the game.

And I don't even WANT to talk about how stupid his Revelation incarnation is. Then again, Revelation Xander isn't much better, so...

Then, there is of course the elephant in the room: Ryoma flat out lies to you by saying he is your true brother when in fact you aren't and he knew all along that Mikoto wasn't his true mother, as evidenced by Revelation and his S-support with a female Corrin, only to manipulate Corrin into joining Hoshido.
You know, I'm slowly starting to think Camilla had a point when she said the Hoshidan siblings took Corrin away from her.
Although it is rather sweet to think that Sakura apparently fell in love with M!Corrin when he came up to her during a Faceless attack, at least according to their S-support. And it makes marrying anyone other than her all the more cruel, especially if that "anyone other" is Hana, her best friend. Damn, I'm an asshole...

2.)
The Hoshidan royalty seems to have a very strong case of short-term memory loss and can't think past their own little world: Immediately after Chapter 5, it is forgotten that the Ganglari did in fact only explode AFTER Spoileragi asspulled it from Corrin's sheath AND that said explosion would have killed Corrin in the process, thus eliminating any chance of this actually being an "elaborate ruse" by Corrin, as the stupidest pinapple in the entirety of existance suggests.
Not to mention they all SAW what exactly happened. They SAW Mikoto sacrifice herself for Corrin, they SAW Corrin grieving so hard they went Super Sayian turned into a dragon horse (why would Corrin feel grief over Mikoto dying if they "planned" / were in on this, Pineapple, huh?) and Ryoma even straight up FIGHTS Spoileragi. I guess getting beaten up by an invisible water ghost makes you lose your mind or something, I don't know.

Also the fact that the invisible soldiers looked NOTHING like Faceless (because surprise, surprise: They AREN'T!) and there is no evidence to suggest that they are even remotely related to them, so it should have raised a few eyebrows - even IF the Ganglari was a gift from Garon - that there may in fact be another force at work, something Yukimura even FLAT OUT STATES to be the case. Even the freaking COMMUNITY completely overlooks this when discussing this or similar topics.

3.)
Hoshido kidnapped Bitch-zura in retaliation to Nohr kidnapping Corrin. Probably to use her as a bargaining tool... and nothing ever comes of that. Except that Bitch-zura develops a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome and advanced brain damage, as suggested by her opening words on the Revelation route. Yes, Bitch-zura, attacking the Nohrian and Hoshidan armies while they're getting ready to throw down will TOTALLY make them want to listen to us. No doubt about it... now go back to your cell and count gummy bears or something.

Btw, "Hoshido has food jokes running the country" is totally a line I will use from now on.

Edited February 22, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Sias]

I dunno, but most of your post seems to hover somewhere inbetween "exaggerating", "purposefully misunderstanding things" and "ignoring either the context or literally just the actual events in the game". Like, to break things down a little:

Quote

Ryoma:Shared route: Killsteals like a mother and actively tries to kill his family in the shared route then fights some nerd instead of helping his family after they get bombed and surrounded. Then he just peaces out. Has more assasins on personal retainer than the entirety of Nhor.

BR: When the war proper begins he spends most of it macin on Scarlette in lobster cosplay, commits genocide, and then he just kills fools until it's time to give the last surviving Nhorian a bowl of rice.

CQ: One up's Garons evil in BR by attacking the primary medicinal distributor of Nhor, then he just chills out till ch25 where he sits and watches you kill his entire army and most trusted servants so he can handle a personal grudge.

SR: If you really want to criticize his killstealing of all things... That could actually be interpreted as a plus as he apparently tries to save his sisters/protect the people as quickly as possible. Aside from that - where does he try to kill his own family???
Regarding the bombing,  I'd argue that he indeed does try to help them by confronting the still present and dangerous main assailant, so I don't know where he supposedly just peaces out either. And I'd like to remind you that assassin =/= ninja, considering that someone like Beruka is one as well and Nohr was apparently very invested in that, especially during the concubine wars.

BR: I can certainly cede the point regarding Cheve, though I'd argue that it's nevertheless very questionable to classify this as an "evil" act.
Furthermore, "commits genocide" might be just sliiiiightly overexaggerated, seeing as the whole point of BR is basically to off Garon as quickly as possible without fighting large and drawn-out battles (thereby avoiding many casualties) because Nohr has supposedly far more military. And sure, Corrin could've been a bit less ruthless and told the team to only use their mysterious non-lethal weapons like in CQ, but eeeh, on the other side I don't remember the Hoshidans just slaughtering all the civilians along the way for fun, so...

CQ: Besides the fact that you can't really one up Garon's evilness, the whole issue about this chapter has been talked about rather lenghtily in a thread here somewhere, the TL;DR being that it's a valid war time tactic. Ch25 also has something to do with traditinal Japanese samurai values, I believe, there should be a tpoic about that as well.

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Taco: Shared route: Peaces out despite standing right next to you when the bomb goes off and then wants your head on a pole. He also admits to knowledge of Oboro's actual past but basicly lies to her for years to keep her killin lady boner aimed at nhor rather than the hoshidian nobility.

BR: Walks up and tries to gank you until the power of songboners calms him down. Then he just betrays you again in ch16. Kinda a dick. Also commits genocide.

CQ: I said ignore this but remember when he walked into peace talks just to put 2 in Elise's chest?

SR: Neither of us do actually have any idea what he did after the assassination, maybe he helped rescue civilians, maybe he was blown away and through a wall, I don't know, but you can't argue based simply on your hypothesis. I also don't remember the Oboro part at all, where was that from?

BR: Kind of a dick =/= being evil, and the whole betrayal thing stems mostly from Anankos and not Takumi. Adressed the genocide already.

CQ: Since when exactly were the things happening in Cheve peace talks???

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Hinoka: Shared: Peaces out when mom explodes despite being right there. Lets Sakura die instead of just picking her up on the peg and flying over to the person she's spent her entire adult life hunting down.

BR: Tries to get the Nhorcast to kill more Nhorians faster with the power of boners. Down with genocide.

CQ: She exists here?

SR: Talked about peacing out already, and I've honestly always chalked the whole issue with Ch4 up to gameplay-story-dissonance, but oh well.

BR: regarding genocide, see above.

Quote

All in Rev: Fucking die!!! Ok we bros now.

This is just a problem of everyone with RV in general, though. At least the Hoshidan siblings don't directly attack you past chapter 6 or try to make excuses for the obvious evil by stating that "he's just under the weather". :/

Quote

By contrast the Nhoraly constantly risk death, banishment, or worse in the name of humanitarian and family values. True they do so pragmaticly (sans Elise who is no-fear-renegade-without-a-cause) but lets all remember that these (fictional) people maintain these values despite a horrifying and straight up abusive life. Hell even BR Xander gives you every chance imaginable, acting only when you try to straight murder his father, and even then, at the very end, he only swung because it came down to Corrin vs everything else he loved. 

I'm not really seeing the how the Nohrians "constantly risk death, banishment, or worse in the name of humanitarian and family values". Like, really not.
They help the people at the opera house, sure, and also somehow beat the Hoshidans a few time with harmless dummy weapons, but besides that? They cut a bloody swath through the land in a perfectly needless war and kill practically anyone who dares to oppose them or just happens to pass along the way, civilians included and all.
True, there's a lot of lamenting in CQ about how Corrin especially would like to handle things better, but nothing gets ever done exactly because they fear "death, banishment, or worse". I also don't really see Camilla, who only cares about her siblings and is very quick to excuse things with "*shrug*, it's just the Nohrian way", as particularly dedicated to humanitarian values - and by no means Xander, who holds hollow speeches about things he himself does not adher to and actively ignores a situation that would lead to him winning the war with about as few casualties as possible. He's also so extremely loyal to Garon that he wouldn't even fight Gooron until the latter started to attack his own children, which is why I've truly no idea where his supposed good values are (unless you're talking about the supports, they're quite nice actually).

And yeah, BR Xander gives Corrin every chance imaginable, especially when he tries to kill them immediately after making their decision to side with Hoshido.

Quote

There is a pretty good reason Garon is cartoon villan evil. Namely it's the only way portaying hoshido as good is even remotely plausible.

For giggles let's extract Garon entirely. The whole plot is kickstarted by Corrin refusing to kill a pair of assasin PoW's (merciful by the standards of the time) then runnin dick first into a hoshidian border fort (why does this exist outside of external agression? There's a magic wall around the country) when his/her orders were to observe it, and then spoileragi asspulls a bombsword. In response Hoshido under Ryoma makes the rational choice of declaring total war on Nhor. Nhor then defends it's borders. Your choice dictates a surgical strike to remove the leadership of one side. Nhor is pretty chill as invading armies go (ignoring the open rebelion in Cheve, that's uuuh what happens yo.) Hoshido burns the country to the ground,salts the earth, and mercs a few neighboring nations and city states in the process.

So yeah, Garon pretty much exists to make betraying the folks who raised you from infancy for a band of hatemurdering dicks you just met and have every reason to hate (Sans Sakura) look remotely appealing.

Of course Nohr would suddenly be far less evil if you took the main antagonist of BR out of the game, huh. This doesn't change that his immediate subordinates (Iago, Hans, Xander) are all terrible people nevertheless.

Also, how on earth is Ryoma the one declaring war? As soon as the barrier disappears, the Nohrian forces are already gathering at the border with Xander planning to conquer them immediately, and btw I distinctly remember Ryoma saying something along the lines of "I did my best to avoid total war" at some point.
I also don't see how the Hoshidans are "burning the country to the ground" when they are the ones explicitly avoiding larger battles and passing through the capital without killing all the people in sight, while the Nohrians murder everyone along their way just for funsies, I guess.

Also tagging @DragonFlames because you seem to be interested in the discussion, maybe I'll also reply to your post in detail when I have some more time tomorrow.

[joshcja]

Did you just go through a severly tounge in cheek post to pick out every single joke/humerous observation/logical jump and argue it based on some sort of "fates cannon bible" (pretty sure this isn't a thing).

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Edited February 23, 2018 by joshcja

[Corrin_Kamui]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:51 AM, Sunsurge said:

I hate to tell you his, but I don't think Awakening had a dynamic, well thought out plot. Sorry that you thought being petty was a smart move here. I completely think Awakening had a very black and white plot. But the concept was interesting and despite many failings, the black and white plot at least worked out for what it was trying to accomplish.

Fates's concept was TOO interesting to be handled so poorly in such a black and white fashion, which you would know if you read my post.

Secondly, I know choosing Nohr is 'wrong'. That's my point. They never focus on the fact that it's wrong. They imply it vaguely, but for the most part make Corrin just that. A selfish, weak, idiot. And I hate characters like that. Either make Corrin heartless and evil, or make them take things into their own hands (but not in the way they attempted to do in Revelations). I agree that choosing to oppose Garon is the smart move, all I was saying was that they didn't do a good job with the two paths, and keeping it so black and white.

They should have made both games a lot more grey for the concept to work.

The theme of the game was Justice vs. Loyalty, but they played it up more as Blood vs. The Family that Raised You. That was my issue. They never harped on the fact that choosing Nohr was SO blatantly awful. It's just brushed under the rug. When they choose Hoshido they also brush it under the rug that you're betraying your entire family (I don't count Garon), without so much of a *real* second thought. I just thought the writing for both routes was awful, but Hoshido's writing was only SLIGHTLY better, simply because it was the "right" choice. That's my issue with the game.

And me liking Awakening doesn't mean I love the story, or am so blind to it's faults. So next time you're disputing something, stick to the topic. There was no other reason, except pettiness to bring in Awakening.  

I brought up Awakening because you called Fates' story the worst in the franchise despite it having the same pitfalls as Awakening.

As I said before it confuses me * and in all honesty frustrates me a little * when Awakening fans in particular call Fates story the worst despite it being identical to Awakening's in almost every way.

 

Personally I thought Fates concept was handled pretty well between the two main games in regards to the question of standing by your family right or wrong vs following your conscience; Conquest's attempts to justify Corrin supporting Garon aside.

 

Betraying the family that stole you from your home,brainwashed you into loving them and purposely kept you ignorant of the world to use you as a weapon to kill a peaceful ruler to escalate a war.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Corrin_Kamui

[joshcja]

57 minutes ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

I brought up Awakening because you called Fates' story the worst in the franchise despite it having the same pitfalls as Awakening.

As I said before it confuses me * and in all honesty frustrates me a little * when Awakening fans in particular call Fates story the worst despite it being identical to Awakening's in almost every way.

A lot of folks treat Cornbread and Robin as a self insert protags when they're really just an extremely credulous stripper thighed dragon waifu and some Sue in an edgy coat.

When given 3rd person prespective and treated as a self insert, awakenings plot is more consistant with the choices of an idealized self.

[Corrin_Kamui]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

A lot of folks treat Cornbread and Robin as a self insert protags when they're really just an extremely credulous stripper thighed dragon waifu and some Sue in an edgy coat.

When given 3rd person prespective and treated as a self insert, awakenings plot is more consistant with the choices of an idealized self.

Boy don't be talking smack about my dragon waifu. :p

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, joshcja said:

Did you just go through a severly tounge in cheek post to pick out every single joke/humerous observation/logical jump and argue it based on some sort of "fates cannon bible" (pretty sure this isn't a thing).

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

You're allowed to post such humor. . .and we're allowed to take it seriously.

The most moral side is Valla, for being a plot device.

Hoshido would've had a case, if they didn't do the exact same thing as Nohr by nabbing Azura.  Granted, she wasn't happy, but I doubt they knew that before they got her.  So my answer is that neither side has the high ground, and Corrin was absolutely right in ditching both of them in Revelation.

[Corrin_Kamui]

16 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You're allowed to post such humor. . .and we're allowed to take it seriously.

The most moral side is Valla, for being a plot device.

Hoshido would've had a case, if they didn't do the exact same thing as Nohr by nabbing Azura.  Granted, she wasn't happy, but I doubt they knew that before they got her.  So my answer is that neither side has the high ground, and Corrin was absolutely right in ditching both of them in Revelation.

In fairness wasn't Azura originally kidnapped in the hopes of forcing Garon to do an exchange for Corrin?

[eclipse]

Just now, Corrin_Kamui said:

In fairness wasn't Azura originally kidnapped in the hopes of forcing Garon to do an exchange for Corrin?

Doesn't really matter why - if you repay a wrong with the same wrong, it doesn't make you the better side.