Which side is more moral to you: Hoshido or Nohr?

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

You're allowed to post such humor. . .and we're allowed to take it seriously.

The most moral side is Valla, for being a plot device.

Hoshido would've had a case, if they didn't do the exact same thing as Nohr by nabbing Azura.  Granted, she wasn't happy, but I doubt they knew that before they got her.  So my answer is that neither side has the high ground, and Corrin was absolutely right in ditching both of them in Revelation.

 

46 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Doesn't really matter why - if you repay a wrong with the same wrong, it doesn't make you the better side.

Agreed on both accounts.

I wanted to elaborate a bit on my post above, as it seemed too one sided against Hoshido: I'm not saying Hoshido is wrong and Nohr is right (on account of me actually enjoying Birthright the most out of all three games). While I do agree with what @joshcja said, and only meant to add some arguments to his, I also see some problems with joining Nohr outside of the obvious "Garon is evil" thing. 
I also feel like ditching both Nohr and Hoshido is - on all accounts - the best decision Corrin could make, based on everything their siblings (sans the little sisters, who are holy and must be protected at all costs) and their followers do and say in all three paths and their absolutely retarded "with us or against us" mentality, I'd never want to stay with them, either.
Let's go over why joining Nohr is stupid for shits and giggles, again, ignoring the fact that Garon is evil:

The big one: There is no denying that at least Camilla, Leo and Elise love Corrin deeply as a sibling, but what about Xanderp? Sure, he trained them, sure, he probably taught them lots of things, but what happens as soon as Corrin opposes him and his father for the first time by refusing to kill Rinkah and Kaze? Corrin gets almost sliced in half by Siegfried. I don't know about you, but if my hypothetical brother did that, I don't think I would be as fond of him anymore. It was Leo who ultimately made the right call and defused the situation. 
Also, the first thing Xanderp does after Corrin decides to join Hoshido because, duh, Garon is an evil prick (and worst Camus is too stupid / blind to see it), is label them a traitor and threatening to kill them if they don't return to Nohr. I already chastised Ryoma for similar behaviour, but here we go: I don't think slicing your sibling's limbs off will make them want to return home with you and refusing to hear them out is also not a thing an older brother should do if the sibling love was actually real, which doesn't seem to be the case for Xanderp.
I can understand feeling betrayed over Corrin leaving Nohr, but going full-on Yandere mode just because you can't tap dat booty (if female Corrin) / your brother won't come back after witnessing the atrocities allegedly committed by Nohr (if male Corrin) isn't what I would consider good person material.

"You're coming with us, if you want to or not." - Leo
When, in the history of anything, has that kind of mentality ever convinced a person to join up with you? Evidence no. 347 that Leo isn't actually that smart.
Though it is later revealed that Leo was probably desperate when he said that, that sentence made me cringe somewhat when I first saw it.

This is actually one of the reasons why I like Birthright's plot so much: it's story really manages to portray the Nohrian Royals in a sympathetic light by showing that their family is breaking apart because the one thing holding them together is gone.
Yes, even Camilla and Xanderp, though the latter ruins it by killing Elise and showing no remorse for it. "But he cried" I hear you say. Doesn't matter: If your dying little sister wishes for you to stop killing your family, you stop killing your family. That Xander is still regarded as "good" after the fact just because he chose to die at Corrin's hands for redemption (read: picked the coward's way out) is disgusting.

Also, no matter the circumstance, you don't kill family just because someone ordered you to. You just don't. Unless you're a prick or really hate that specific family member.
It is sad that Camilla's best line only comes after she tried to kill Corrin without hearing them out first in Revelation, making her look like a giant hypocrite:
"I remember this look... This is the same look you'd give me when you'd made up your mind. I always loved that strong, determined look. All right. I believe you. I'll fight for you. I don't know what's going on, but... The least a big sister can do is believe in her little brother/sister. " - Camilla, Revelation Chapter 12

And that goes not just for big sisters, but for family in general, so f*** Xander and f*** Ryoma for not taking this to heart. F*** them hard.
And f*** Warriors for making the two actually somewhat likeable.

[joshcja]

I mean, just gonna throw this out there.

Revelations is the most humane path for all of us because Azura jumps off a cliff and dies in ch6 never to sing "oceans gray waves" again.

Not sure decision paralyisis is really a moral choice.

---------------------------

Edit: So as an actual semi-serious defense of Xander. He threatens/tries to kill you 3 times.

Once when you refuse to kill a hostile nations ninja and a member of a tribe of crazy fucks who try to be Oni of all the batshit things you could be who were clearly Not In Hoshido for their capture (magic barrier). Not gonna lie. A quick death is fuckin merciful and I'd cut their throats without a thought in that culture. The only logical reason for them being there anyone could possibly know was "kill my family with shit covered rusty knives and a blut object".

The second time was when Cornbread activle tries to commit patricide in a neutal nation.

Third time is when you've killed most of Nhor including Hans and Iago and are knock knockin on the front door of his home.

Yeah I'd totally kill the shit out of that traitorous fuck Corrin here. With waaaay less hesitation.

----------------------------

Past that the whole Elise death... makes no sense. Xanders actions are the most sane and logical part of that whole cluster. "Giant killin boner" makes way more sense than the following.

You're pretty much captured because... reasons??? Then for some reason, your fully armed and armored army is invited to stand and watch you die. For.... reasons? Then, lets consider this is a room presumably full of people who know Elise so her being fully mobile during this was... hugely out of character for everyone, and the fucksforsaken Nhorian princesses are just left chillin in the middle of a group of armed to the teeth murdery murdering hoshidians so that Elise can suicidedive. Finally.. She got her lungs cut out by a bastard sword that shoots actual laser beams so how in the name of basic human anatomy can she SPEAK at all? Stopping here for the sake of brevity and sanity, but there is so many other things comedicly fucked here.

When held under any level of scrutiny the rest of the game(s) are made of a similar brand of contrived bullshit. Ch26 BR is just far and above the most rediculous scenario.

---------------------

In short. When asked my view of fates plot/morality my flat answer is. No. Nope. Nuh-Uh. Calling all the bulshit. Corrin clearly fell off the tower in Ch1 and the rest of fates is the dieing dream of an extremely sheltered child, or it's made some dude who writes japan cartoons like naruto for kids.

Either way it's impossible to take seriously.

(Still proud Nhorscum for life yo)

Edited February 23, 2018 by joshcja

[Sunsurge]

9 hours ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

I brought up Awakening because you called Fates' story the worst in the franchise despite it having the same pitfalls as Awakening.

As I said before it confuses me * and in all honesty frustrates me a little * when Awakening fans in particular call Fates story the worst despite it being identical to Awakening's in almost every way.

Personally I thought Fates concept was handled pretty well between the two main games in regards to the question of standing by your family right or wrong vs following your conscience; Conquest's attempts to justify Corrin supporting Garon aside.

Betraying the family that stole you from your home,brainwashed you into loving them and purposely kept you ignorant of the world to use you as a weapon to kill a peaceful ruler to escalate a war.

Because it was the worst story in the franchise based on how it was written... Awakening came first. So I'm sorry that a similar awful story doesn't excite me? I had high hopes for Fates because Awakening (while basic) was fun to play and despite the linear, I can literally predict the entire story by chapter 2, story, it was simple. 

Fates tried to do TOO much, and for it to have the SAME pitfalls as Awakening makes it worse. If you're going to stretch yourself to create an awesome concept, you better make damn sure the story matches. Awakening wasn't trying to do too much, so its pitfalls don't compare in scale to Fates which really fucked up. So no, they're not identical, and it shouldn't be confusing if you put some thought into it.

You seem really focused on the brainwashing aspect. But point is, Conquest could have been so much more interesting if they hadn't tried to make such a weak, pathetic protagonist/self-insert/dragon/whatever else Corrin is justify bad actions. Everything you just said is exactly why Conquest failed. Betraying the family that stole you, 'brainwashed' you, and that you love, only to be used as a weapon to kill a peaceful ruler. There is literally nobody who would choose Conquest. And if I AM that person, can I least be evil and kill those damn Hoshido scum? Like come on. Let me be evil if I'm making the "evil" decision. 

Conquest was a failed project, and because it was so hyped having two different (three total) routes, it failed a lot harder by making it so shitty and black and white. So yes. Awakening suffered from the same pitfalls, but it wasn't trying to do to much, so it didn't fail epically. And at least the stupid kids make sense there unlike Fates which was just shoe-horned into it. 

[DragonFlames]

43 minutes ago, joshcja said:

I mean, just gonna throw this out there.

Revelations is the most humane path for all of us because Azura jumps off a cliff and dies in ch6 never to sing "oceans gray waves" again.

I wish this was actually the case. Like, Corrin trolls her and says "sure, we'll come after you" and then just stands there, watching Bitch-zura plummet to her death. The thought alone fills me with happiness.
Nothing against Rena Strober, she's a very talented voice actress (just see her stellar performance as Emma in Trails of Cold Steel for reference) and has a beautiful singing voice, to boot, but in all honesty, her talent was utterly wasted on Bitch-zura. Such a shitty waste of a plot-device character doesn't deserve to have a voice that heavenly.
It's like asking Iron Maiden to host a concert in a cafe that can house a total of ten people at most, maybe twenty if you're really trying to push it.

[joshcja]

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

It's like asking Iron Maiden to host a concert in a cafe that can house a total of ten people at most, maybe twenty if you're really trying to push it.

That's a pretty good summation for "The Misfits" origins. 

Not certain I want Helena and Gray Waves in the same sentance yo.

[DragonFlames]

9 minutes ago, joshcja said:

That's a pretty good summation for "The Misfits" origins. 

Not certain I want Helena and Gray Waves in the same sentance yo.

Thank you for introducing me to one of my new favourite bands.
I legit had no idea they existed. And yes, Helena is a much better song, though that's not much of an accomplishment. Going Badger Badger Badger to stupid music for ten minutes is a better song than that Lost in Thots All Alone.

Edited February 23, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Modamy]

46 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I wish this was actually the case. Like, Corrin trolls her and says "sure, we'll come after you" and then just stands there, watching Bitch-zura plummet to her death. The thought alone fills me with happiness.
Nothing against Rena Strober, she's a very talented voice actress (just see her stellar performance as Emma in Trails of Cold Steel for reference) and has a beautiful singing voice, to boot, but in all honesty, her talent was utterly wasted on Bitch-zura. Such a shitty waste of a plot-device character doesn't deserve to have a voice that heavenly.
It's like asking Iron Maiden to host a concert in a cafe that can house a total of ten people at most, maybe twenty if you're really trying to push it.

It's kind of sad that the more recent Fire Emblems have gotten some real good voice actors to do really good voice overs for their really crappy leads (you know, Azura, Alm, Celica ...).

[Corrin_Kamui]

2 hours ago, Sunsurge said:

Because it was the worst story in the franchise based on how it was written... Awakening came first. So I'm sorry that a similar awful story doesn't excite me? I had high hopes for Fates because Awakening (while basic) was fun to play and despite the linear, I can literally predict the entire story by chapter 2, story, it was simple. 

Fates tried to do TOO much, and for it to have the SAME pitfalls as Awakening makes it worse. If you're going to stretch yourself to create an awesome concept, you better make damn sure the story matches. Awakening wasn't trying to do too much, so its pitfalls don't compare in scale to Fates which really fucked up. So no, they're not identical, and it shouldn't be confusing if you put some thought into it.

You seem really focused on the brainwashing aspect. But point is, Conquest could have been so much more interesting if they hadn't tried to make such a weak, pathetic protagonist/self-insert/dragon/whatever else Corrin is justify bad actions. Everything you just said is exactly why Conquest failed. Betraying the family that stole you, 'brainwashed' you, and that you love, only to be used as a weapon to kill a peaceful ruler. There is literally nobody who would choose Conquest. And if I AM that person, can I least be evil and kill those damn Hoshido scum? Like come on. Let me be evil if I'm making the "evil" decision. 

Conquest was a failed project, and because it was so hyped having two different (three total) routes, it failed a lot harder by making it so shitty and black and white. So yes. Awakening suffered from the same pitfalls, but it wasn't trying to do to much, so it didn't fail epically. And at least the stupid kids make sense there unlike Fates which was just shoe-horned into it. 

IDK about that. Awakening tries to tell 3 separate stories too. Atleast Fates split it into 3 separate games instead of trying to tie them together haphazardly like Awakening did.

 

I can understand your disappointment in Fates but to call it objectively the worst is a bit of a stretch.

 

To me Fates' goal seemed to be to tell a more personal story then Awakening and to me atleast it succeeded.

 

I'm focusing on it because far too many pro-Nohr players ignore it when they accuse Birthright players of "betraying" the "real" family.

 

Honestly I agree with you about Conquest. I mean, aside from simply just preferring the Nohrian siblings there is literally no reason to side with Nohr and even Corrin can't justify it.

Though to me having Conquest be the purely selfish path would have been fine if the game didn't try to feebly justify it.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Corrin_Kamui

[Sias]

23 hours ago, joshcja said:

Did you just go through a severly tounge in cheek post to pick out every single joke/humerous observation/logical jump and argue it based on some sort of "fates cannon bible" (pretty sure this isn't a thing).

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

In all honesty, I've seen people argue for pretty much exactly what you wrote or slight variations thereof in a totally serious manner, so yes, I did respond rather extensively.
Also I actually enjoy discussions like these, help me.

And I have no idea what a canon bible is even supposed to be, everything I wrote came from memory of actual game events/scripts, though it's really rather hard to not stumble into picking apart your jokes/observations/logical jumps when your post consisted almost entirely of them. :/

14 hours ago, joshcja said:

Edit: So as an actual semi-serious defense of Xander. He threatens/tries to kill you 3 times.

Once when you refuse to kill a hostile nations ninja and a member of a tribe of crazy fucks who try to be Oni of all the batshit things you could be who were clearly Not In Hoshido for their capture (magic barrier). Not gonna lie. A quick death is fuckin merciful and I'd cut their throats without a thought in that culture. The only logical reason for them being there anyone could possibly know was "kill my family with shit covered rusty knives and a blut object".

The second time was when Cornbread activle tries to commit patricide in a neutal nation.

Third time is when you've killed most of Nhor including Hans and Iago and are knock knockin on the front door of his home.

Yeah I'd totally kill the shit out of that traitorous fuck Corrin here. With waaaay less hesitation.

Besides that, did you actually even read my last reply? Because I mentioned at least one other time when Xander tried to murder Corrin and told you that the Hoshidans having "killed most of Nohr" is still just factually untrue.

23 hours ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

I brought up Awakening because you called Fates' story the worst in the franchise despite it having the same pitfalls as Awakening.

As I said before it confuses me * and in all honesty frustrates me a little * when Awakening fans in particular call Fates story the worst despite it being identical to Awakening's in almost every way.

Imo Fates' story is still worse than Awakening's due to two reasons mostly: First of all, there's a ton of silly plot contrivances and devices that are used just to make the basic conflict work, and secondly Awakening doesn't suffer from the protagonists doing a lot of rather evil things, only to be heralded as beloved heroes by everyone anyways and immediately forgiven by each of their enemies.

[joshcja]

3 hours ago, Sias said:

Something.

Short and sweet reply. I have no interest in discussing the primary plot of fates in a serious or cannonical manner.

-----------------------------------

The bit that was here would probably make somone with thin skin cry. I'll be nice and remove it.

TL;DR: There is nothing to disscuss in the main plot if you're taking it seriously. Black and white hosh good nhir bad cut to black done. There is nothing else. It's completely one dimensional, and will ignore anything and everything in the name of hammering home this point.

For this and reasons posted on the thing you bloody quoted (scroll down another inch) it's far more entertaining to infer information indirectly filling in the gaps, and then bullshit about it. Or just discuss the actual side interactions and minor bits of world building that are legitimately good and open to discussion in many cases.

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by joshcja

[Sunsurge]

20 hours ago, Corrin_Kamui said:

IDK about that. Awakening tries to tell 3 separate stories too. Atleast Fates split it into 3 separate games instead of trying to tie them together haphazardly like Awakening did.

I can understand your disappointment in Fates but to call it objectively the worst is a bit of a stretch.

To me Fates' goal seemed to be to tell a more personal story then Awakening and to me atleast it succeeded.

I'm focusing on it because far too many pro-Nohr players ignore it when they accuse Birthright players of "betraying" the "real" family.

Honestly I agree with you about Conquest. I mean, aside from simply just preferring the Nohrian siblings there is literally no reason to side with Nohr and even Corrin can't justify it.

Though to me having Conquest be the purely selfish path would have been fine if the game didn't try to feebly justify it.

 

Really? Awakening to me is 3 different points of time in the same narrative. Like ... a trilogy almost. Fates is 3 separate stories, because they don't really build off each other. I do think Awakening's trilogy was haphazardly thrown together, but it's still part of the same narrative and they (mostly) build off each other. Versus Fates which was 3 different stories that relate to each other, but don't necessarily build.

I'm particular about definitions because I write, and so I guess to me Fate is objectively the worst, simply because the writing was objectively the worst (when it came to Conquest and then the mess that was Revelations in it's own way). I think if they just made Hoshido (or just Revelations), the games would have been a lot better off. Between Nohr and Hoshido, Nohr (while my absolute favorite), is the worse written story by FAR. And then when you throw Revelations into it, it makes even Birthright not nearly as good.

I mean, I loved the idea of Conquest, and definitely love Nohr siblings by FAR compared to the Hoshido ones (except Sakura, I love her), but it's really hard to ignore that they erased his memory (essentially brainwashing him). Though I guess out of the siblings, Elise and Leo and Camilla were a lot less guilty of brainwashing (Because how much did they know), compared to Xander (who is my least favorite Nohr sibling by a LOT). 

Yeah, Conquest had so much potential. I wish they hadn't tried to justify it!!

[DragonFlames]

7 hours ago, Sunsurge said:

Really? Awakening to me is 3 different points of time in the same narrative. Like ... a trilogy almost. Fates is 3 separate stories, because they don't really build off each other. I do think Awakening's trilogy was haphazardly thrown together, but it's still part of the same narrative and they (mostly) build off each other. Versus Fates which was 3 different stories that relate to each other, but don't necessarily build.

I'm particular about definitions because I write, and so I guess to me Fate is objectively the worst, simply because the writing was objectively the worst (when it came to Conquest and then the mess that was Revelations in it's own way). I think if they just made Hoshido (or just Revelations), the games would have been a lot better off. Between Nohr and Hoshido, Nohr (while my absolute favorite), is the worse written story by FAR. And then when you throw Revelations into it, it makes even Birthright not nearly as good.

I mean, I loved the idea of Conquest, and definitely love Nohr siblings by FAR compared to the Hoshido ones (except Sakura, I love her), but it's really hard to ignore that they erased his memory (essentially brainwashing him). Though I guess out of the siblings, Elise and Leo and Camilla were a lot less guilty of brainwashing (Because how much did they know), compared to Xander (who is my least favorite Nohr sibling by a LOT). 

Yeah, Conquest had so much potential. I wish they hadn't tried to justify it!!

Wa-hey, someone who agrees with me!

In all seriousness, I quite liked Awakening's 3 Arc idea. I thought it was done pretty well.

Edited February 24, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Sias]

On 24.2.2018 at 6:09 AM, joshcja said:

Short and sweet reply. I have no interest in discussing the primary plot of fates in a serious or cannonical manner.

-----------------------------------

The bit that was here would probably make somone with thin skin cry. I'll be nice and remove it.

TL;DR: There is nothing to disscuss in the main plot if you're taking it seriously. Black and white hosh good nhir bad cut to black done. There is nothing else. It's completely one dimensional, and will ignore anything and everything in the name of hammering home this point.

For this and reasons posted on the thing you bloody quoted (scroll down another inch) it's far more entertaining to infer information indirectly filling in the gaps, and then bullshit about it. Or just discuss the actual side interactions and minor bits of world building that are legitimately good and open to discussion in many cases.

 

Yeah, I noticed, even though I'm not sure whether I want to know what extra part was actually there before you removed it. Thank you for protecting me from crying because of the impossibly thin skin I apparently have.

At least I can happily affirm that the main storyline of Fates is indeed mostly terrible and one-dimensional, which was kind of my point all along, so there's something we agree on, I guess.

On 24.2.2018 at 7:13 PM, DragonFlames said:

Wa-hey, someone who agrees with me!

In all seriousness, I quite liked Awakening's 3 Arc idea. I thought it was done pretty well.

I think each of Awakening's three parts has some pretty nice core ideas that are sadly never really expanded upon. The game could have used another 20 chapters or so slapped on top of it very well to get a game length more akin to RD.

[henrymidfields]

Clearly Hoshido in the vanilla game. Unless if you are talking about a modified Fates Conquest story with Senator Xander and Hisashi's battles in the Pacific Theatre and the triumph of the Arsenal of Democracy, in which case then, it would be the United States of Nohr. And Hoshido is an evil dictatorship.

Edited March 14, 2018 by henrymidfields

[Erik-a]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:28 AM, Corrin_Kamui said:

IDK about that. Awakening tries to tell 3 separate stories too. Atleast Fates split it into 3 separate games instead of trying to tie them together haphazardly like Awakening did.

 

I can understand your disappointment in Fates but to call it objectively the worst is a bit of a stretch.

 

To me Fates' goal seemed to be to tell a more personal story then Awakening and to me atleast it succeeded.

 

I'm focusing on it because far too many pro-Nohr players ignore it when they accuse Birthright players of "betraying" the "real" family.

 

Honestly I agree with you about Conquest. I mean, aside from simply just preferring the Nohrian siblings there is literally no reason to side with Nohr and even Corrin can't justify it.

Though to me having Conquest be the purely selfish path would have been fine if the game didn't try to feebly justify it.

 

My first experience in FE was Awakening, so I don't think that I'm all that qualified to mention it, and I'm not exactly a "new" fan anymore since I've branched out to different FE games since then. I enjoyed Awakening, but I had trouble keeping up with the three stories within the plot. I still find it to be a good game, but not exactly my favorite since the Fates games are my favorite (so far). I agree with you on Fates seemed to be telling a "personal story," as you put it, and I agree that it was successful. I really agree with you guys on Conquest since all Corrin (in that game) was doing was preferring her adoptive siblings. If my memory serves me correct, Nohr is corrupt and Garon is just plain evil, if not worse. All of the crap he was putting her through for coming back to Nohr was unreasonable. 

[John Denver Fan]

I think that Hoshido has more moral, yes many of my favourite characters are from Nohr including Flora. Nohr is like a nightmare for Hoshido kinda like how North Korea is a nighmare to South Korea. Corrin either chooses to fight Hoshido or protect Hoshido. In the former it is like turning against your family and nation. In the latter it is protecting your family and nation. All and all I would say Hoshido has more moral. 

[DiogoJorge]

Hoshido, easily. Nohr was the country that started hostilities and is responsible for there being a war in the first place. Hoshido prefers peace over war, and thus they won't fight unless provoked.

Edited March 3, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Erik-a]

On 3/3/2018 at 2:04 PM, DiogoJorge said:

Hoshido, easily. Nohr was the country that started hostilities and is responsible for there being a war in the first place. Hoshido prefers peace over war, and thus they won't fight unless provoked.

Nohr did a lot to provoke Hoshido into fighting, and now that I think about it, was it Nohr's fault that they were even in the war? All Hoshido wanted to was to live in peace while Garon wanted to conquer Hoshido.