General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[GrandeRampel]

7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And YES. Oscar needs his brothers too! Heck, they can even actually have a banner all their own if it's Boyd, Rolf, and an Oscar alt. I don't really approve of non-seasonal/legendary alts, but I would let this one be an exception simply because we've had 3-character banners and the Greil Merc brothers number exactly three. And they're just the best siblings ever. ?

I'm sorry but if this ever happens I will uninstall the game. Giving Oscar an alt when there are still three Greil Mercs waiting for their chance (Rhys, Shinon and Gatrie) will piss me off so much. Especially since Oscar isn't really famous for any other weapon, movement combination type besides lance and horse. It would be the worst non-seasonal alt ever, and I'm surprised you are even proposing such a horrible thing instead of rounding out the banner with Kieran and Marcia, or literally anyome who isn't a useless alt.

[Anacybele]

9 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

I'm sorry but if this ever happens I will uninstall the game. Giving Oscar an alt when there are still three Greil Mercs waiting for their chance (Rhys, Shinon and Gatrie) will piss me off so much. Especially since Oscar isn't really famous for any other weapon, movement combination type besides lance and horse. It would be the worst non-seasonal alt ever, and I'm surprised you are even proposing such a horrible thing instead of rounding out the banner with Kieran and Marcia, or literally anyome who isn't a useless alt.

...What? Why would this be so horrible? Yes, those other mercs deserve to be in the game too, but the brothers seriously have their own little theme going on and did you also forget that Oscar is currently the only one of the Greil mercs in the game right now that DOESN'T have an alt? Ike, Mist, Soren, and Titania got Valentine's versions and Mia got a Halloween one. Greil himself is technically an alt even though his normal self is not in. Oscar doesn't deserve to be left out of all that imo.

Also, there is one other weapon Oscar is kinda known for: bows. Because of the triangle attack he can do with his brothers in PoR. It requires them to all have bows because they have to be wielding the same weapon. Rolf only has bows, Boyd gains bows when he promotes, and Oscar can be given bows when he promotes.

Bow cav Oscar when, IS?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Anacybele

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Stroud said:

Only in a double pack with Vanessa please. I mean Vanessa must wake Forde up so he does not oversleep his next banner. 

Their support is actually one of the better ones I ever saw. xD

  Hide contents

C Support

Vanessa: What's that down there?! Whoa, Titania! Whoa, girl! Let's stop here! Are you hurt?! Are you all right?!
Forde: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Vanessa: Huh?
Forde: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Vanessa: You have GOT to be kidding me! Sleeping while a war is waging? Bold warrior, it's time to wake up! Hey! Lazybones! Get up!
Forde: Snargleblagh...hmph? Zzzzzzzzz...
Vanessa: Oh, boy... Let's go, Titania. It's clear that Mr. Slug here needs his beauty rest.
Forde: Zzzzz... Huh? Did someone say something?

B Support

Vanessa: Oh, look who's actually awake today.
Forde: You must be one of Frelia's pegasus knights.
Vanessa: I'm Vanessa.
Forde: Yeah, that's right. Vanessa. I'm Forde. Nice to meet you. By the way, what do you mean by me being awake?
Vanessa: Just the other day, I was flying by and saw you lying on the ground. I thought you were hurt, but when I got closer, I saw that you were just sleeping! I couldn't believe my eyes. I was so disgusted that I just left you there. But then I started to worry about enemies spotting you, so I went back. By the time I got back to where you were, you were already gone.
Forde: I catch them off guard that way and then attack. That's my strategy.
Vanessa: I seriously doubt that.
Forde: Ha ha ha! But anyway, thanks for your concern.
Vanessa: You really don't stress or plan much, do you? So different from our prince...
Forde: The prince of Frelia? Ah, you mean Prince Innes. I think he's almost 100 percent stress. But I'm sure he's quite the ladies' man. I bet you have a crush on him, too. You're blushing, so I must have hit a nerve!
Vanessa: I-I don't! I didn't say anything!
Forde: A romance between a prince and his knight? What scandal! What intrigue! It's all right, though. You can love anyone you like. You must have lots of competition, seeing how he is a prince. It's much easier to date someone you can be yourself around. Someone like, say, me would be ideal for you. What do you say?
Vanessa: Um... Let's go, Titania. We've wasted enough time here.
Forde: You don't have to run away like that! OK, see you! Watch out for those archers!

A Support

Vanessa: I think I misunderstood you.
Forde: Yeah? So you understand me now?
Vanessa: I guess so. You've been working for me from behind-the-scenes, haven't you.
Forde: Yes. But don't worry. I'm used to that sort of misunderstanding.
Vanessa: Well...thank you.
Forde: Heh heh heh. You're welcome, of course. So, how about all that other stuff?
Vanessa: What do you mean?
Forde: Am I too far a cry from a prince?
Vanessa: Um...
Forde: I felt an energy...
Vanessa: Energy? What are you talking about?
Forde: Everyone has a different type of energy. Some energies can heal hearts, others spread courage. When you first saw me sleeping, I was dreaming of running across a field. I felt this warm energy engulfing me, blowing across my face like a summer wind. It must have been your energy that made me feel that way.
Vanessa: My...energy?
Forde: Would you like to feel my energy, too?
Vanessa:' Um... I'll certainly think about it.
Forde: Wonderful! I'll be waiting for your answer, Vanessa.

 

I would be completely okay with that.

[GrandeRampel]

7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

...What? Why would this be so horrible? Yes, those other mercs deserve to be in the game too, but the brothers seriously have their own little theme going on and did you also forget that Oscar is currently the only one of the Greil mercs in the game right now that DOESN'T have an alt? Ike, Mist, Soren, and Titania got Valentine's versions and Mia got a Halloween one. Greil himself is technically an alt even though his normal self is not in. Oscar doesn't deserve to be left out of all that imo.

Also, there is one other weapon Oscar is kinda known for: bows. Because of the triangle attack he can do with his brothers in PoR. It requires them to all have bows because they have to be wielding the same weapon. Rolf only has bows, Boyd gains bows when he promotes, and Oscar can be given bows when he promotes.

Bow cav Oscar when, IS?

The other Greil Mercs have a seasonal alt. He can be a Bow Cavalier at Christmas or something, but stealing a spot on a regular banner is a no-no. They stopped doing that last Summer, please don't make them go back to their bad abits (I mean putting an alt together with normal units, not making a banner of only alts like Adrift. That's a bad abit too). If you want him to be like the others, than he needs a seasonal alt. Otherwise he will be the weird one out.

 

And don't you realize how dangerous it is to think stuff like "he can't be the only one without an alt?". Yes he can. Because someone has to be. Otherwise when Boyd and Rolf are added people will say "well, they can't be the only ones without alts, even their brother has one" and so on and so on, until every single character in the game has alts.

I could say "it's unfair that Lute is the only summonable unit from Farfetched Heroes without an alt, make a Lute alt".

Others could say "it's unfair that some retainers from Fates have alts and others not, make them all have alts".

This is fine and dandy as long as we talk about seasonals since we know they are coming, we know nothing will stop them from coming, so we might as well theorize and mame requests for them.

But let's not taint the regular summoning pool with more alts thank you very much.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Saizo and Kagero are a surprise. I thought for sure the next dagger unit to get a personal weapon would be Gaius since he's allegedly so popular. But he's also kinda the least salvageable as I recall. Wonderful speed stat for procing windsweep and free debuffs, but all those nasty armor units have suddenly become dragons and it's so easy to apply debuffs to enemy units without taking deadly counterattacks that even a personal windsweep weapon sounds like he'd still warm the bench. 

As for the christmas duo talk in this thread, it reminds me that Kaze is in the game too. So I'm surprised they didn't do the christmas ninjas together. Don't get me wrong, Kagero has fallen harder than most gen 1s in terms of PvP potential (I still wrecked PvE content since no other unit just has arbitrary effective damage on infantry), but have we ever got paired Fates retainers in the same update? 

[Raguna]

4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Saizo and Kagero are a surprise. I thought for sure the next dagger unit to get a personal weapon would be Gaius since he's allegedly so popular. But he's also kinda the least salvageable as I recall. Wonderful speed stat for procing windsweep and free debuffs, but all those nasty armor units have suddenly become dragons and it's so easy to apply debuffs to enemy units without taking deadly counterattacks that even a personal windsweep weapon sounds like he'd still warm the bench. 

As for the christmas duo talk in this thread, it reminds me that Kaze is in the game too. So I'm surprised they didn't do the christmas ninjas together. Don't get me wrong, Kagero has fallen harder than most gen 1s in terms of PvP potential (I still wrecked PvE content since no other unit just has arbitrary effective damage on infantry), but have we ever got paired Fates retainers in the same update? 

There may be more but Hinata and Oboro got their update at the same time. I don't  think  Niles and Odin did but Odin was probably a special case. As for Kaze, due to having Gen 2 BST, he was probably left out for a different refine once they move on to those Year 2 units. Kaze's refine could still mirror Saizo's in a different sort of way or he may just have something unique to what he did in Fates but I don't think they'd magically pop in Kaze just because Saizo was there.

I'd argue Matthew or Jakob suck more than Gaius does since if we want to speak purely on offense terms, Gaius beats them out of the water. Defensively Matthew may be more bulky but Saizo has been doing his job far better while Jakob is a bit of a jack of all trades master of none that despite disliking him, I'd rather Jakob get a refine sooner rather than later. 

[silverserpent]

Whatever the effect, I've got 600 dew waiting to be used on Elincia. I still think it might be a healing effect to reflect her unique abilities. 

[colossus86]

My my, this is an interesting batch. Saizo and Kagero get the first dagger refines in god knows how long, the best budget lance cav gets a prf before Mathilda, and Elincia's situation has some interesting implications...

In regard to our daggers its totally up in the air. IS tends to put alot less thought and effort into the prfs of 3-4 star units and alot of them end up with upgraded versions of their base weapons. While that might be the case for Saizo, I very much doubt it for Kagero as Poison Dagger seems to be abandoned by IS (and for good reason imo). While IS has shown that they love to hand out Gem weapons, at least we have Hinata as precedent that they won't do it for literally everyone who has them at base. While I personally love the tactic refines gameplay wise, they remaining 2 would make more sense for Jaigan and Gunther from both a gameplay and flavor perspective.

Elincia getting a refine makes me question their fundamental thoughts on brave weapon design. Its long been considered that being a brave weapon its self counts as a full weapon effect. This made sense with the weapons we were seeing from Cherche, Reinhardt, and previously Elincia. However when Klein came through, His weapon was Amiti at base with an additional refine. So its fair to question if IS considers brave weapons in the way they do blade tomes (which are allowed to be blade tomes and shed their special penalty as 1 effect), or if they've moved on from considering "+3" a full effect. In all likelihood its just the former, but if its the latter there's suddenly a bunch of weapons that might see attention.

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, GrandeRampel said:

The other Greil Mercs have a seasonal alt. He can be a Bow Cavalier at Christmas or something, but stealing a spot on a regular banner is a no-no. They stopped doing that last Summer, please don't make them go back to their bad abits (I mean putting an alt together with normal units, not making a banner of only alts like Adrift. That's a bad abit too). If you want him to be like the others, than he needs a seasonal alt. Otherwise he will be the weird one out.

I'm not saying I want anything like Adrift, I definitely do not. I'm only asking for an Oscar alt, nothing more.

1 hour ago, GrandeRampel said:

And don't you realize how dangerous it is to think stuff like "he can't be the only one without an alt?". Yes he can. Because someone has to be. Otherwise when Boyd and Rolf are added people will say "well, they can't be the only ones without alts, even their brother has one" and so on and so on, until every single character in the game has alts.

...And every character having an alt is bad why? I like the idea. Every character has fans, you know.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Anacybele

[Landmaster]

Kagero been needing a refine for years with her single most pathetic weapon in the entire game~ Hopefully Kaze will get one soon since the other two ninjas have gotten theirs~ 

[GrandeRampel]

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I'm not saying I want anything like Adrift, I definitely do not. I'm only asking for an Oscar alt, nothing more.

...And every character having an alt is bad why? I like the idea. Every character has fans, you know.

Every character getting an alt isn't bad. As I said, we know that so many seasonal banners are coming, so even if it was bad it would be meaningless to complain about something that will not change.

What is bad is to waste the few spots we have for new characters with an alt. I have nothing against Bow Oscar if he comes for Halloween, or Christmas or something like a chef seasonal banner. He just needs to stay the heck away from regular banners. And now that I think about it, alt Oscar isn't even the only problem I have with your idea of a Green Brothers banner.

I am firmly against 3 units new heroes banners. We only get ONE new heroes banner each month, it better have at least 4 characters.

And I find it ironic that you are talking about a 3 heroes banner like it's a good thing. If I remember right the very first banner like that was Oscar-Nephenee-Elincia and I remember you complained about it, saying that it was wrong to give us one character less for no reason. How things have changed.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

Every character getting an alt isn't bad. As I said, we know that so many seasonal banners are coming, so even if it was bad it would be meaningless to complain about something that will not change.

What is bad is to waste the few spots we have for new characters with an alt. I have nothing against Bow Oscar if he comes for Halloween, or Christmas or something like a chef seasonal banner. He just needs to stay the heck away from regular banners. And now that I think about it, alt Oscar isn't even the only problem I have with your idea of a Green Brothers banner.

I am firmly against 3 units new heroes banners. We only get ONE new heroes banner each month, it better have at least 4 characters.

And I find it ironic that you are talking about a 3 heroes banner like it's a good thing. If I remember right the very first banner like that was Oscar-Nephenee-Elincia and I remember you complained about it, saying that it was wrong to give us one character less for no reason. How things have changed.

Actually, I still prefer four-character banners over ones with just three. I never said I didn't. I simply mean that a banner with just the three brothers would be the one exception to that. Nothing more.

[Jave]

Super excited for Kagero. Always wanted to use her but her terrible offense against non-infantry wouldn’t let me. 

Imagine if Elincia’s refine is Meisterschwert effect. 

[daisy jane]

30 minutes ago, Jave said:

Super excited for Kagero. Always wanted to use her but her terrible offense against non-infantry wouldn’t let me. 

Imagine if Elincia’s refine is Meisterschwert effect. 

 

Please let this be the refine.

[XRay]

19 minutes ago, Jave said:

Imagine if Elincia’s refine is Meisterschwert effect. 

That would be awesome. If they do her extra justice, they might even add Brazen Atk/Spd on top of it like how they improved Ragnarok. This would allow her to better compete against Keaton for the Counter-Vantage role. While Keaton is still better in terms of pure combat performance, Elicina has much better mobility and ease of positioning.

WOT!Reinhardt unfortunately is still a bit subpar for the Counter-Vantage role due to his lower Atk compared to Keaton.

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Saizo and Kagero are a surprise. I thought for sure the next dagger unit to get a personal weapon would be Gaius since he's allegedly so popular. But he's also kinda the least salvageable as I recall. Wonderful speed stat for procing windsweep and free debuffs, but all those nasty armor units have suddenly become dragons and it's so easy to apply debuffs to enemy units without taking deadly counterattacks that even a personal windsweep weapon sounds like he'd still warm the bench. 

As for the christmas duo talk in this thread, it reminds me that Kaze is in the game too. So I'm surprised they didn't do the christmas ninjas together. Don't get me wrong, Kagero has fallen harder than most gen 1s in terms of PvP potential (I still wrecked PvE content since no other unit just has arbitrary effective damage on infantry), but have we ever got paired Fates retainers in the same update? 

What old Dagger units like Gaius and co need is a Dagger refine that gives their daggers the effect of Legendary Alms weapon lol

I would kill for such an effect on a personal Staff for Azama ._. coupled with a Splash AoE that follows the same rules ._. omg IS make it happen so Azama stops hitting for 0!!!

[Ice Dragon]

All daggers need to be good is a way to not roll over and die on the counterattack. Fury 4 and Sturdy Impact are a good start, but both of those are too rare to be generally usable.

As usual due to space limitations, the names of Saizo's and Kagero's new weapons are shortened in English. Saizo's is "Saizo's Explosive Flame Dart" and Kagero's is "Kagero's Blinding Dart".

I'm expecting Saizo's weapon to have Smoke Dagger's effect as its base effect and maybe Pain+'s effect as its refine.

I don't think Kagero will keep effective damage against infantry due to how absurdly strong that effect would be on a weapon with an actual Mt stat. I'm thinking Holsety's effect as the base effect since Holsety's effect appears to have been meant to mimic the high Evade stat that its original Spd bonus provided.

I'm not going to be too picky about Amiti's refine. It's a weapon that already has 2 good effects, so there's not much they can really do to screw it up.

I... don't really care about Oscar.

[DLNarshen]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:04 PM, colossus86 said:

Julius having what passes for Gen 2 bst for an infantry mage and IS never refining +stat weapons (since they consider it a full effect) make this rather unlikely. Although I agree in light of Tharja and the Adrift Tomes Loptous isn't in the best place.

 

On 5/31/2019 at 12:57 PM, Stroud said:

Forgot about the +3 Res. Dang, I guess he will have to wait for his maybe Mythic Hero alt. xD Which is ok, Loptous just looks so underwhelming. Even more now. I mean they can't have all in mind in past days. Some units just get whooped.

I'm a bit late to this discussion/tangent, but I will say that Loptous feels like a very experimental weapon that ultimately fell flat.  IIRC it was the first to have an in-combat debuff, and is still the only one that inflicts effective damage on its user.  Especially considering Julius's status as a free unit, IS probably decided to play it safe with the debuff effect, but wound up playing it a little too safe.  Res+3 and Atk-6 except against dragon-slayers by itself makes for an average weapon, but with the included weakness to said dragon-slayers, one starts to wonder if he'd have more success with generic tomes instead.  There's not going to be much reason to use Loptous anymore once Raudrserpent becomes a thing.  

[colossus86]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

All daggers need to be good is a way to not roll over and die on the counterattack. Fury 4 and Sturdy Impact are a good start, but both of those are too rare to be generally usable.

As usual due to space limitations, the names of Saizo's and Kagero's new weapons are shortened in English. Saizo's is "Saizo's Explosive Flame Dart" and Kagero's is "Kagero's Blinding Dart".

I'm expecting Saizo's weapon to have Smoke Dagger's effect as its base effect and maybe Pain+'s effect as its refine.

I don't think Kagero will keep effective damage against infantry due to how absurdly strong that effect would be on a weapon with an actual Mt stat. I'm thinking Holsety's effect as the base effect since Holsety's effect appears to have been meant to mimic the high Evade stat that its original Spd bonus provided.

I'm not going to be too picky about Amiti's refine. It's a weapon that already has 2 good effects, so there's not much they can really do to screw it up.

I... don't really care about Oscar.

If they're calling it a "Blinding" Dart, do you think they might give it a Flash+ effect? Making your opponent unable to counter could be analogous to high evade.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

If they're calling it a "Blinding" Dart, do you think they might give it a Flash+ effect? Making your opponent unable to counter could be analogous to high evade.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the base or refine effect. I don't think the weapon would have a full counter disrupt, but inflicting Flash would be a suitable alternative that is less overpowered.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't think Kagero will keep effective damage against infantry due to how absurdly strong that effect would be on a weapon with an actual Mt stat. I'm thinking Holsety's effect as the base effect since Holsety's effect appears to have been meant to mimic the high Evade stat that its original Spd bonus provided.

I do not think infantry effectiveness is that overpowered. Just because most of the game's units are infantry does not mean there are mostly infantry units on the battlefield.

There are a lot of infantry 720-734 Arena, but having infantry effectiveness in that mode does not do the player any good unless it is the bonus unit that has it.

Arena Assault is already so stupid easy once you have 3 Firesweep nukes for each Blessing group that the difficulty cannot get any lower.

Allegiance Battle is kind of easy too. The difficulty is not really from combat, but from getting bonus kills, so infantry effectiveness is not going to help that much.

I think Aether Raids is dominated by mostly fliers and armors, with the most notable infantry I recall being Dancers/Singers and sometimes Ophelia and SK!Alm. Those infantry units are not exactly bulky, so infantry effectiveness is not really that desirable if Blade tomes and other nuclear Weapons can already make them explode with little effort.

New Abyssal maps have nice mix of everything, so I do not think infantry effectiveness is going to help that much either.

Edited June 4, 2019 by XRay

[FoxyGrandpa]

With there being nearly a 15 point stat difference between Gen 1 and Gen 3 infantry Dagger and Bow Units, Saizo and Kagero need something really good in order to stand out from newer units. I'm in agreement with Ice Dragon that infantry effectiveness on a 14 mt weapon is a little too good, but a reverse desperation weapon would be pretty powerful, especially when combined with a good refine. Saizo is a bit more tricky to craft a weapon for given that his statline is fairly balanced, but I'm hoping he gets a slightly less powerful version of Surtr's weapon (dealing 10 damage to units within two spaces instead of 20) or a weapon that would effectively give him pain+  and dazzling staff.

[Ice Dragon]

@XRay There's a thing called "enemy Kagero", you know.

While Tempest Trials does not currently use "new power" or refined weapons, late-map Kagero with just Poison Dagger+ is already quite a pain to deal with using an enemy-phase infantry unit or if your attacker requires taking a counterattack to kill. For me, Kagero is the second most difficult ranged enemy for my Legendary Lyn or Brave Ike to deal with in Tempest Trials after Flora.

Something in particular that is important is the fact that infantry is still the weakest movement type when under player control, and that stems from the fact that, while infantry have gotten a lot of new toys to play with recently in an attempt to bring them up to par with other movement types, all of the game-changing new toys are 5-star exclusives with poor distribution (contrast with Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, which, while also 5-star-exclusive, are available from 8 and 7 different units, respectively). We don't need yet another reason to push aside infantry for the other movement types.

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, XRay said:

 

I think Aether Raids is dominated by mostly fliers and armors, with the most notable infantry I recall being Dancers/Singers and sometimes Ophelia and SK!Alm. Those infantry units are not exactly bulky, so infantry effectiveness is not really that desirable if Blade tomes and other nuclear Weapons can already make them explode with little effort.

New Abyssal maps have nice mix of everything, so I do not think infantry effectiveness is going to help that much either.

Actually to my experience AR has more Infantry pulse Teams or mixed Infantry pulse with sprinkled armors horses etc then anything. So in that regard i think inf. eff would be good for an offense Kagero. I would like them to kerp inf effectivness on on her.

I mean Alm has basicly effectivness against anything when he initiates lol

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@XRay There's a thing called "enemy Kagero", you know.

While Tempest Trials does not currently use "new power" or refined weapons, late-map Kagero with just Poison Dagger+ is already quite a pain to deal with using an enemy-phase infantry unit or if your attacker requires taking a counterattack to kill. For me, Kagero is the second most difficult ranged enemy for my Legendary Lyn or Brave Ike to deal with in Tempest Trials after Flora.

Something in particular that is important is the fact that infantry is still the weakest movement type when under player control, and that stems from the fact that, while infantry have gotten a lot of new toys to play with recently in an attempt to bring them up to par with other movement types, all of the game-changing new toys are 5-star exclusives with poor distribution (contrast with Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, which, while also 5-star-exclusive, are available from 8 and 7 different units, respectively). We don't need yet another reason to push aside infantry for the other movement types.

For Tempest Trials or any mode, using Player Phase units means there is never going to be an issue regarding how hard enemies can hit if enemies die first on initiation. Enemy Kagero with super Poison Dagger is not that much better than enemy SK!Alm against player's infantry units.