General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Ice Dragon]

I personally prefer 3-character banners over 4-character banners for the better sniping summon rates.

While it would be nice to increase character representation, I think that would be better handled by not adding more seasonal banners. As much as I liked the onsen and picnic banners, I would still have preferred standard banners instead of seasonal banners (mostly because limited characters make me and my wallet sad).

 

And I would like to echo @Etheus's argument regarding F/GO. Fire Emblem has hundreds of established characters. Type Moon doesn't have anywhere near that many, and there is a fundamental difference between being a fan of an existing character and hoping for the existence of an original character that doesn't yet exist.

F/GO also has a piss-poor summon rate and a piss-poor resource farming rate that balances out how slowly they release new characters to make sure players can't easily max them out and be done with the new content too quickly (without significant time investment) and to make sure players keep paying them money. It costs less to +10 a character in Heroes (11 copies) than it costs to NP5 a character in F/GO (5 copies), both of which are considered maxed in the "number of the same character I can squish into a single giant ball" sense.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Well, yes. If we received new heroes banners every 2 weeks (like we did once upon a time), I'd be happy with 3 hero banners.

 

But that isn't the world we live in right now. They're literally inventing new bullshit seasonal themes just for the sake of it.

[daisy jane]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Strongly opposed to 3 unit new heroes banners. Further slowing the rate of hero additions is too steep a cost to pay for higher pull rates on one banner.

and i'm the opposite. i'd rather be able to get what i want without expending a tonne of resources just so we can have "1" more person added to the game. 3 person/2 person banners are great. 4 person (12 person) banners are horrible. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by daisy jane

[Tybrosion]

29 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

3 person/2 person banners are great. 4 person (12 person) banners are horrible. 

Not when the two characters involved are cancer incarnate and a pointless snow loli, they aren't. I don't give a shit about the increased focus rates which, for the record, didn't even help me get either of them anyways, that was still easily my least favorite new character banner (New, Special, whatever) ever.

To actually be on topic, Amiti's refine gives me a second reason (the first being Haar merges) to wish this next update will just get here already.

[daisy jane]

5 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Not when the two characters involved are cancer incarnate and a pointless snow loli, they aren't. I don't give a shit about the increased focus rates which, for the record, didn't even help me get either of them anyways, that was still easily my least favorite new character banner (New, Special, whatever) ever.

To actually be on topic, Amiti's refine gives me a second reason (the first being Haar merges) to wish this next update will just get here already.

well not them per se (and ylgr and surtr are strictly food) but "theoretically" the rates are the best for 5*s in general are they not math speaking? 
Leo/Takumi had one too. 

I am refining Elincia's so fast. i've been refining all my healer weapons to generate enough dew. 

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Tybrosion said:

Not when the two characters involved are cancer incarnate and a pointless snow loli, they aren't.

Surtr was tame compared to Azura and Alm. Surtr also has simpler and more accessible checks and counters.

 

2 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

To actually be on topic, Amiti's refine gives me a second reason (the first being Haar merges) to wish this next update will just get here already.

This is probably the only "New Power" banner that I'm actually looking forward to because my Elincia was only 1 merge away from +10 when she got removed from the standard summoning pool.

Also waiting for her refine to be revealed so I can decide if she gets one of my Sturdy Impacts or not.

[MrSmokestack]

21 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Surtr was tame compared to Azura and Alm. Surtr also has simpler and more accessible checks and counters.

People still think Surtr is a broken unit?

...

I'm looking forward to Elincia's refine the most from this batch.

[Fabulously Olivier]

30 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Not when the two characters involved are cancer incarnate and a pointless snow loli, they aren't. I don't give a shit about the increased focus rates which, for the record, didn't even help me get either of them anyways, that was still easily my least favorite new character banner (New, Special, whatever) ever.

To actually be on topic, Amiti's refine gives me a second reason (the first being Haar merges) to wish this next update will just get here already.

I agree. Book 2 OCs were the worst and those two were the absolute bottom of the barrel.

 

The only good thing to come out of that banner was that SS4 is pretty good on enemy phase cavalry/fliers. My Michalis loves it.

[Tybrosion]

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Surtr was tame compared to Azura and Alm. Surtr also has simpler and more accessible checks and counters.

None of that makes him any less of a pain to deal with in his own right when I don't have someone like bun-bun Palla or Idunn on hand, especially whenever he turns up in Grand Conquests. That, and unlike Azura and Alm, I hate Surtr's guts as a character if he can even be called one.

[Ice Dragon]

32 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

People still think Surtr is a broken unit?

Apparently, they do. Despite the fact that needing "someone that can deal with green armors" has been kind of a thing ever since the game was released.

 

9 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

None of that makes him any less of a pain to deal with in his own right when I don't have someone like bun-bun Palla or Idunn on hand, especially whenever he turns up in Grand Conquests. That, and unlike Azura and Alm, I hate Surtr's guts as a character if he can even be called one.

Literally half of the game is a pain in the ass to deal with in Grand Conquest now that it feels like everyone and their mom has something ridiculously bulky that gets stuck standing on a fortification or base tile. (And now that all of the maps are utterly terrible and covered with the things.)

And dealing with green armors has been a thing since day 1. Surtr just happened to be a reminder that these things exist by making him so absurdly easy to optimize.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Troykv]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Apparently, they do. Despite the fact that needing "someone that can deal with green armors" has been kind of a thing ever since the game was released.

 

Literally half of the game is a pain in the ass to deal with in Grand Conquest now that it feels like everyone and their mom has something ridiculously bulky that gets stuck standing on a fortification or base tile. (And now that all of the maps are utterly terrible and covered with the things.)

And dealing with green armors has been a thing since day 1. Surtr just happened to be a reminder that these things exist by making him so absurdly easy to optimize.

Yeah, Surtr it's just the most tanky and probably overall better of his kind, but is definitely not the only one.

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Apparently, they do. Despite the fact that needing "someone that can deal with green armors" has been kind of a thing ever since the game was released.

Lightly ironic that you say this, for Hector was he not a menace of the game at its release?

 

 

Since Amiti, a fairly nice if just a slightly better Brave weapon is getting stronger now, could they please do something about the Light Brand? I've been playing for the first Thracia 776 time (for obvious reasons) and I'm becoming fond of the Little Lord. Conditional DC? Special negation? Anti-Armor to reference the Bragi Sword? Please no to the Renewal which the Falchions finds themselves having, it'd just make the Light Brand their pale and expensive shadow.

I'm doubtful Leif would be getting a better LB anytime soon though, he has already been on two relatively recent banners.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Humanoid]

I field my rather limp armour team as the first team in AA, and Surtr often wrecks me there to the extent that I now just surrender if he appears. Not a big deal of course since it's the first map of AA, but there's a big difference compared to other green armours - even Bold Fighter ones - in that I can't safely enemy phase him.

Grima can take him if the stars align but it depends on external factors (especially as mine is +Res -HP). BK can't even scratch him, nor can he charge up Black Luna. This would change if I decide to him him Bold Fighter, but I'm still deciding on whether he or Cecilia gets it. So yes, in this situation he's a nightmare to deal with, but in almost any other case I can safely counterpick so it's fine. That said, I would view a superpowered Kagero anti-infantry refine in the same way, so eh.

[MrSmokestack]

Surtr is a joke. He’s good as a scorebot and cheerleader for Arena, but that’s about it.

 

I will admit I got slightly peeved whenever I saw him in training tower though. In PvP his counters are a dime a dozen.

Edited June 6, 2019 by MrSmokestack

[May]

I wonder if current seasonal characters will get a personal weapon if they don’t have one? It locks out accessibility to those who don’t have the units, but it’d be cool to consider because people actually use seasonals competitively.

[Troykv]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Lightly ironic that you say this, for Hector was he not a menace of the game at its release?

 

 

Since Amiti, a fairly nice if just a slightly better Brave weapon is getting stronger now, could they please do something about the Light Brand? I've been playing for the first Thracia 776 time (for obvious reasons) and I'm becoming fond of the Little Lord. Conditional DC? Special negation? Anti-Armor to reference the Bragi Sword? Please no to the Renewal which the Falchions finds themselves having, it'd just make the Light Brand their pale and expensive shadow.

I'm doubtful Leif would be getting a better LB anytime soon though, he has already been on two relatively recent banners.

Amiti it's the first (well, second if we count Niles weapon as a pseudo Gen 2 Weapon) weapon with two effects (Brave and Spd 3) to be refineable, so... who knows; maybe they're preparing us for the day they decide to start refining the weaker Gen 2 Weapons.

 

But they would start with the ones with the less effects of course (like Shiro's and Siegbert's).

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Aera said:

I wonder if current seasonal characters will get a personal weapon if they don’t have one? It locks out accessibility to those who don’t have the units, but it’d be cool to consider because people actually use seasonals competitively.

I've actually been counting on seasonals not getting unique weapons as an excuse to refine their weapons (same as with staffies).

[GrandeRampel]

20 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

I greatly prefer 3 unit banners because they are better for sniping a specific hero. I've heard too many horror stories of people spending hundreds of orbs sniping for say, red, on a 4 person banner and getting screwed over. I guess 4 person banners are fine if you like all of the units on the banner and only want one of them. However, most people want one or two specific units on New Heroes banners. In that case, rolling would be a hell of your own making.

I think even if you prefer 3 unit banners because of the better chance at sniping your favorite character you would be a little angry if the 4th character they scrapped was the only one you would have sniped for.

You can say "no biggie. Another occasion to save orbs" but if you fall on an incredible unlucky streak were every single time they exclude the one character you like from 3-persons new banners you will have nothing to do with your saved orbs.

Getting the characters you love in the game should always be the priority, since as long as they are in the game you can always pull for them. You are not forced to pull on their debut banner. You can wait for your beloved 3 units banners like "Heroes with Flashing Blade" or "Mareeta and Eyvel BHB" or a voting gauntlet banner.

3 units banners can still exist in the FEH I dream of. They will just not be the debut banners.

[MrSmokestack]

4 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

I think even if you prefer 3 unit banners because of the better chance at sniping your favorite character you would be a little angry if the 4th character they scrapped was the only one you would have sniped for.

You can say "no biggie. Another occasion to save orbs" but if you fall on an incredible unlucky streak were every single time they exclude the one character you like from 3-persons new banners you will have nothing to do with your saved orbs.

Fortunately for me, most of my favorites are either in the summoning pool already or will get rerun on Legendary banners at set intervals.

I agree that in general, playing with your favorite characters makes FEH (or anything really) worthwhile. However my pulling plans are usually made with gameplay value in mind. If I need to target merges or fodder for a unit, I'll glady take anything that maximizes my chances of those.

I still prefer that banners have less units on rate up as opposed to more, but I'm indifferent as to whether that becomes the norm. Ironically enough, there being 4-person banners compels me to save more orbs anyway.

[Ice Dragon]

44 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

I think even if you prefer 3 unit banners because of the better chance at sniping your favorite character you would be a little angry if the 4th character they scrapped was the only one you would have sniped for.

Please let me know how you get information about who got scrapped, then. Speculation about who could have been on a banner if it had more characters is nothing more than mere speculation otherwise.

If the Beyond Darkness banner, for example, were only Idunn, Sue, and Lugh, could you say with 100% certainty that they actually scrapped Thea from the banner and not Dieck, who placed higher than her in both CYL and CYL 2?

[Thane]

I wonder what Kagerou needs the most in order to see more use. While good, I would be disappointed if we just got another Swift Sparrow built in. 

Then again, just raising the might of her weapon would help a lot.

[bottlegnomes]

36 minutes ago, Thane said:

I wonder what Kagerou needs the most in order to see more use. While good, I would be disappointed if we just got another Swift Sparrow built in. 

Then again, just raising the might of her weapon would help a lot.

Swift Impact, +8 spd/+10 def, is a thought as well. She's got good attack, but her speed is on the low side given the creep, and she's made of freaking glass physically speaking. Res isn't much better, but at least it's something.

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, Thane said:

I wonder what Kagerou needs the most in order to see more use. While good, I would be disappointed if we just got another Swift Sparrow built in. 

Then again, just raising the might of her weapon would help a lot.

Her Inf effectivness and some other effect on her weapon as a 14 MT Weapon.

[GreatKnightEcho]

I came up with this refine idea.

Henry : Ruinous Hex

Base (12 MT): After combat, if unit attacked, grants "Unit can counterattack regardless of distance" to unit and adjacent allies.

Refine: Sudden Panic 3

[GrandeRampel]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Please let me know how you get information about who got scrapped, then. Speculation about who could have been on a banner if it had more characters is nothing more than mere speculation otherwise.

If the Beyond Darkness banner, for example, were only Idunn, Sue, and Lugh, could you say with 100% certainty that they actually scrapped Thea from the banner and not Dieck, who placed higher than her in both CYL and CYL 2?

Obviously you have no way of knowing for sure. But if you hit a streak of banners with literally nobody you care about, despite coming from games you played, you may think "curses, if only those banners had one more character they could have picked".

That and the obvious statistic that if less and less characters remain to be added there is more of a chance for your favorites simply because there is nobody else to pick.

Example, if they want to add more beast units but without making Tellius banner after Tellius banner they will have to choose Yarne because DUH! who else is left? A F!Morgan alt?

It's a bit of an extreme way of thinking but let's make the example of Binding Blade. Let's say you love that game, you like the entire cast except 5 people.

Thea, Lugh, Sue, Rutger and Idunn. You really don't care about them. Now you know for sure that in the next BB banner there will be only characters you love. If they decided to make it a 3 persons banner and leave out Sue you would have to worry "damn it, maybe they will give one of the 3 slots to Sue in the next banner, literally the only one they can choose to piss me off!"

Essentialy even having 4 units you hate on a banner is better than having 3 of them, because they will run out of bad units to disappoint you with way faster.

Of course if you only care about the gameplay, or if you already have all your favorites in the game, this means nothing to you. When I make such considerations I am assuming the majority still have many faves left to add from a variety of games, which might not be true.