General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[redlight]

Overall I like this batch of refines. Shame we can't get something of this quality all the time 

Edited June 10, 2019 by redlight

[Ice Dragon]

Additional notes on Kagero:

Because the weapon's effect requires her Atk to be greater than her opponent's Atk at the start of combat, that means in-combat skills like Death Blow and Sturdy Impact won't work to increase her Atk for the comparison.

This means that her optimal A skills are either Life and Death or Fury 4. If you run Life and Death, that drops her +10 bulk to 59/65 before buffs, which definitely means that she will need the refine effect to stay alive against pretty much anything that an counterattack. With Fury 4, she has a slightly more reasonable 68/74 bulk, but still appreciates the half damage effect because 68 physical bulk is still very low.

 

As for the in-combat skills not counting for the weapon's effect, I tested using Ylgr, who has the same effect, but compares Spd and used Darting Blow to boost her Spd. The additional Aether Raids defense maps make it really easy to test game mechanics without accidentally screwing yourself over.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[MilodicMellodi]

Here's my review of the new weapons/refines.

Kagero's Dart: 4/10. Relies on Atk-based Field Buffs to guarantee the Atk/Spd increase (since the weapon's effect happens "before combat", so it happens before effects "during combat"), and her natural bulk is so unimpressive that the 50% damage reduction on the first attack only doesn't really do much.
Honestly, I feel like this is one of those cases where a unit is actually better off with their original weapon. She fits so much better as an anti-Infantry unit, instead of just another team-reliant Glass Cannon.

Saizo's Star: 6/10. His full effectiveness relies on the foe not having Harsh Command. Dagger units (especially those with Smoke Dagger+) are weak to Harsh Commanders, but Saizo here is even more so. One simple Harsh Command, and he'll crumble like paper. At least he's not weak to Green Gift+, Casa Blanca+, and the like, since the bonus he gets from this weapon is during combat.
The thing is, weapons/skills whose usefulness is based on what skills the enemy has tend to be pretty bad. The only reason I didn't rate lower is because teams without penalty negation/reversal will suffer pretty heavily from this weapon. But if they're prepared in any way, Saizo suddenly becomes a complete liability.

Loyal Greatlance: 7.5/10. This weapon is essentially Killer Geirskogul on a Cavalry Brave!Lucina, but based on movement types rather than weapon types. The reason it's not higher is because Cavalry units don't really have access to the kind of exclusive inherited skills as the other movement types do (other than Hone/Fortify/Spur/Ward Cavalry). Brave!Lucina, at least, can learn Null skills and Special Spiral.
I also didn't rate this higher because Flier and Armored units are still so much more powerful compared to Infantry and Cavalry units right now. Infantry's making a comeback now, but Cavalry isn't. Like I said before, Cavalry doesn't have access to a lot of great skills the others do; the most you can really do with this is to make an Infantry/Cavalry Mixed Emblem team (which isn't terrible per se, but definitely is a lot less powerful than other team builds).

Amiti: 9/10. The Swift Sparrow effect makes her Player Phase even more important to her, effectively giving her a 15 Might, Spd+2 weapon during that time. I feel like this was the only really good refine done.

Edited June 10, 2019 by MilodicMellodi

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, MilodicMellodi said:

and her natural bulk is so unimpressive that the 50% damage reduction on the first attack only doesn't really do much.

Um... the entire point of the weapon is to keep her alive through the first counterattack so that she can live to kill the opponent with the second attack. No damage reduction on the second hit is not an issue because the enemy should be too dead to get off a second hit.

After that, either you still have enough HP to take a counterattack on the next round of combat or Desperation will have already kicked in.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, MilodicMellodi said:

Saizo's Star: 6/10. His full effectiveness relies on the foe not having Harsh Command. Dagger units (especially those with Smoke Dagger+) are weak to Harsh Commanders, but Saizo here is even more so. One simple Harsh Command, and he'll crumble like paper. At least he's not weak to Green Gift+, Casa Blanca+, and the like, since the bonus he gets from this weapon is during combat.
The thing is, weapons/skills whose usefulness is based on what skills the enemy has tend to be pretty bad. The only reason I didn't rate lower is because teams without penalty negation/reversal will suffer pretty heavily from this weapon. But if they're prepared in any way, Saizo suddenly becomes a complete liability.

 

Last time i checked noone was running Harsh command ecxept for rarely in PVE content. In that regard my Windsweep/Watersweep Close Counter Saizo is very happy. The weapon is lets say more weak to dancers, because you can just shake off the debuffs by getting redanced. Which is in general the weakpoint of any debuff in this game sadly and doesnt bring them up on par with visible buffs that last for the whole turn no matter how many times you get redances (something that should seriously get changed, would add that much more value to Harsh Command+ and cures that remove status ailments).

Still very much like the refine.

[Kaden]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's worth noting that neutral Kagero has only 53/59 bulk, which is terrible. At +10 and with +3 HP from a unique weapon refine,

Kagero is a ranged unit and unique refinements for ranged weapons don't have an HP increase unlike with melee weapons unless I'm misunderstanding something. All they get is the unique refinement until we get some weird weapon in the future whose unique refinement increases the unit's HP.

And cue Virion's new bow having C Infantry Duel because why not.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Kaden

[Stroud]

Kagero's dart is not something I expected. It will give me a headache but I will build her. As I merge her she gains a little more bulk. Sadly I do not have Fury 4 for now... but if the time comes I might give it to her. I guess Null Follow Up might be good for her..and some team partner with something like Sabotage Atk...
And I think HP/Atk seal might be a choice for her... if it comes out of course. 

I almost want special cooldown - 1 on Camillas axe after seeing Oscar.. 

For the rest yeah, not my choices. But overall this is ok

Edited June 10, 2019 by Stroud

[Diovani Bressan]

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Last time i checked noone was running Harsh command ecxept for rarely in PVE content. In that regard my Windsweep/Watersweep Close Counter Saizo is very happy. The weapon is lets say more weak to dancers, because you can just shake off the debuffs by getting redanced. Which is in general the weakpoint of any debuff in this game sadly and doesnt bring them up on par with visible buffs that last for the whole turn no matter how many times you get redances (something that should seriously get changed, would add that much more value to Harsh Command+ and cures that remove status ailments).

Still very much like the refine.

His refine is pretty good! I am planning to build a Saizo now. I believe I will give him Watersweep, and I already have a Close Counter for him.

A good skill for his C-Slot can be Pulse Smoke. We need Panic Smoke for him.

[Xenomata]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Kagero is extremely squishy and it helps keep her alive.

It's worth noting that neutral Kagero has only 53/59 bulk, which is terrible. At +10 and with +3 HP from a unique weapon refine, her bulk only hits 64/70, which is still not good considering the physical powerhouses in this game can hit 70 Atk or higher with buffs.

That 50% damage reduction effectively increases her bulk to a massive 128/140, and that's before skills and buffs.

I'm not quite sure if it's being assumed, but I'm not saying it's a bad refine. I agree, Kagero's defensive ability without the refine triggered is downright awful, and this lets her enter range for certain passive skills much safer than any number of other units. It's just... weird.
Up to now, weapon refinery updates have more or less kept the new weapons or special refines the same as the units general playstyle with not much in the way of diverging from such, if not simply giving them a better version of their base weapon's effect plus some other neat effect. I think the most drastic change between a units base weapon to their new weapon, besides units with Silver Weapons like Young Tiki, was Tailtiu going from Bladetome to Wrath 3 weapon with Darting Blow refine, and maybe also Seliph going from Defiant Def 2 to pseudo-Miracle plus Atk/Def Bond refine, but they at least remained faithful to the units general playstyle.

The best I can assume is that this refine is supposed to replicate the effects of the original Kagero's Dart having a good Avoid bonus to the wielder plus a sharp Skill debuff of -5 to the foe after combat in Fates. Since we can't "dodge" attacks, may as well "dodge" some of the damage intake.
...though ironically the original Kagero's Dart was the weakest Shuriken in the game without being an outright joke weapon (such as the Chopsticks) with only 1 might pre-forging, and the effects of the dagger in Heroes is more like Effie's personal skill in Fates...

Edited June 10, 2019 by Xenomata

[Jingle Jangle]

With Saizo refine can he make close counter work, or there are better a skills to use? I think Kagero can work with the old fury desperation/ vantage set.

[Diovani Bressan]

28 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

With Saizo refine can he make close counter work, or there are better a skills to use? I think Kagero can work with the old fury desperation/ vantage set.

I believe Close Counter will work fine. After combat, he will create a 12 stats difference between him and the foe, adn this difference can be higher if Saizo has visible buffs, and foe also has buffs but has the panic status.

I have a +Spd Saizo, and I am planning to give him Close Counter, Watersweep, Savage Blow and Poison Strike Seal. With Dual Rally+ and Aether, he will score 742 in Arena, which is great! I could also give him Close Def Seal, to be more resistant against dragons.

[redlight]

From what I read Saizo works rather well with Aversa as buffs and debuffs coexist. They don't actually cancel each out. +6 atk and -6 atk might not affect the stat, but once panic is applied it's -12 - 6 (from Saizo's bulk). 18x4=72. That's a lot of differences in stat points.

[Fabulously Olivier]

10 minutes ago, redlight said:

From what I read Saizo works rather well with Aversa as buffs and debuffs coexist. They don't actually cancel each out. +6 atk and -6 atk might not affect the stat, but once panic is applied it's -12 - 6 (from Saizo's bulk). 18x4=72. That's a lot of differences in stat points.

Aversa applies both a banic buff cancel AND a debuff though. Any foe debuffed by Aversa will not be further debuffed by Saizo. However, for the purposes of turning Saizo into a physical tank, Aversa is a great complement. And the two together would of course ensure massive debuff uptime.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Etheus

[redlight]

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Aversa applies both a banic buff cancel AND a debuff though. Any foe debuffed by Aversa will not be further debuffed by Saizo. However, for the purposes of turning Saizo into a physical tank, Aversa is a great complement. And the two together would of course ensure massive debuff uptime.

Lol. When you forget Aversa does more than just global panic

[Fabulously Olivier]

10 minutes ago, redlight said:

Lol. When you forget Aversa does more than just global panic

She really is a gamechanging monster. Probably my most useful unit, even at the +5 I have her at.

[redlight]

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

She really is a gamechanging monster. Probably my most useful unit, even at the +5 I have her at.

Yeah. At first she had mixed reception. Oh how people learned

[bottlegnomes]

14 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Aversa applies both a banic buff cancel AND a debuff though. Any foe debuffed by Aversa will not be further debuffed by Saizo. However, for the purposes of turning Saizo into a physical tank, Aversa is a great complement. And the two together would of course ensure massive debuff uptime.

IIRC Saizo's will override Aversa's though since I believe hers are only -4 and the higher should take precedence. Not certain about that though. It's nothing major, but it is a bit of a boost.

 

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not quite sure if it's being assumed, but I'm not saying it's a bad refine. I agree, Kagero's defensive ability without the refine triggered is downright awful, and this lets her enter range for certain passive skills much safer than any number of other units. It's just... weird.
Up to now, weapon refinery updates have more or less kept the new weapons or special refines the same as the units general playstyle with not much in the way of diverging from such, if not simply giving them a better version of their base weapon's effect plus some other neat effect. I think the most drastic change between a units base weapon to their new weapon, besides units with Silver Weapons like Young Tiki, was Tailtiu going from Bladetome to Wrath 3 weapon with Darting Blow refine, and maybe also Seliph going from Defiant Def 2 to pseudo-Miracle plus Atk/Def Bond refine, but they at least remained faithful to the units general playstyle.

The best I can assume is that this refine is supposed to replicate the effects of the original Kagero's Dart having a good Avoid bonus to the wielder plus a sharp Skill debuff of -5 to the foe after combat in Fates. Since we can't "dodge" attacks, may as well "dodge" some of the damage intake.
...though ironically the original Kagero's Dart was the weakest Shuriken in the game without being an outright joke weapon (such as the Chopsticks) with only 1 might pre-forging, and the effects of the dagger in Heroes is more like Effie's personal skill in Fates...

Leo's was probably the biggest change IMO. Cherche also notably got a brave axe when her base weapon was a hammer, though brave axes on her were very common. In this batch Oscar even got a slaying weapon when his base was a gem weapon. Refinements and new weapons in general are meant to either build on a unit's strengths or mitigate their weaknesses. It's true they do seem to stick to the basic effects, but that only seems to be the case if they still think the base effect is practical. In Kagero's case, it seems like they decided her base effect was too dangerous (a not uncommon sentiment as this thread will attest to) to viably build on, so instead they decided to fix two of her weaknesses and build on her strength.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, redlight said:

Yeah. At first she had mixed reception. Oh how people learned

She's the new age Reinhardt, lol.

[Vicious Sal]

1 minute ago, redlight said:

Yeah. At first she had mixed reception. Oh how people learned

She was the first easily accesible red tome flier. Her stat spread was comparable to Tana and A!Camilla, I haven’t seen a soul who disputed Aversa’s usefulness and were sceptical about her performance.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Up to now, weapon refinery updates have more or less kept the new weapons or special refines the same as the units general playstyle with not much in the way of diverging from such, if not simply giving them a better version of their base weapon's effect plus some other neat effect. I think the most drastic change between a units base weapon to their new weapon, besides units with Silver Weapons like Young Tiki, was Tailtiu going from Bladetome to Wrath 3 weapon with Darting Blow refine, and maybe also Seliph going from Defiant Def 2 to pseudo-Miracle plus Atk/Def Bond refine, but they at least remained faithful to the units general playstyle.

Cherche switched from a Hammer to a Brave Axe. Raven switched from a Brave Axe to a Slaying Axe. Ogma switched from a Brave Sword to Heavy Blade. Linde switched from Breath of Life to Hone Magic. Faye switched from Firesweep to Distant Stance. Leo switched from Gravity to Sacred Cowl. Female Robin switched from a Gronnwolf to a Gronnraven. Sharena switched from Threaten Atk to Dull All. And so on.

We've had a lot of units already that have had their roles switch entirely between their default weapon and their new or refined weapon.

 

21 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Aversa applies both a banic buff cancel AND a debuff though. Any foe debuffed by Aversa will not be further debuffed by Saizo. However, for the purposes of turning Saizo into a physical tank, Aversa is a great complement. And the two together would of course ensure massive debuff uptime.

Aversa's Night only applies a -3 penalty to each stat. Saizo's Star applies a -6 penalty to each stat. Saizo's penalties will override Aversa's penalties because penalties will always take the largest value.

[Fabulously Olivier]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Cherche switched from a Hammer to a Brave Axe. Raven switched from a Brave Axe to a Slaying Axe. Ogma switched from a Brave Sword to Heavy Blade. Linde switched from Breath of Life to Hone Magic. Faye switched from Firesweep to Distant Stance. Leo switched from Gravity to Sacred Cowl. Female Robin switched from a Gronnwolf to a Gronnraven. Sharena switched from Threaten Atk to Dull All. And so on.

We've had a lot of units already that have had their roles switch entirely between their default weapon and their new or refined weapon.

 

Aversa's Night only applies a -3 penalty to each stat. Saizo's Star applies a -6 penalty to each stat. Saizo's penalties will override Aversa's penalties because penalties will always take the largest value.

Yes, my mistake. I'd still consider that interaction to be a partial waste, but the synergy is clear.

 

I'm considering a Saizo project myself. What is his best boon for a Close Counter tank build?

[Xenomata]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

We've had a lot of units already that have had their roles switch entirely between their default weapon and their new or refined weapon.

I may have worded it wrong, but I meant that they would usually get a new effect more in-line with their statspreads and use by players. Raven getting a LnD Killer Axe is much more in-line with the Attack and Speed he was given than his Brave Axe (though I admit to not knowing what weapon he commonly SIed before Basilisko), and Brave Axe+ was a popular SI Axe to give to Cherche up til she got one of her own. Pretty much the same deal for all those other units you mentioned. Aura I can only assume took inspiration from Dark Aura, which I think most Linde users would switch to if they kept using Aura, and Brynhildr... to be honest, I forgot the base effect changed.

18 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I'm considering a Saizo project myself. What is his best boon for a Close Counter tank build?

+Def will make him a lot bulkier than he looks, given his effective +12 beefed up bulk against a foe he debuffed himself. +Spd will help him really make all those Spd attackers suffer, but doesn't do much for the slower foes in high Arena tiers. +Atk would help get additional damage in, which may be necessary if you don't want him to have Poison Strike/Savage Blow for post-combat chip. +Res I think would only do good if you really built on it, which... 19 asseted Res really isn't much to work on.

So... Def, Spd, and Atk. I don't know what kind of enemies you are coming across often, but +Spd will help against the extra speedy foes, +Def for the really strong ones, and +Atk for the really bulky ones.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I was considering +Def for the tanking bulk and Bonfire. 34 (merged 38) spd should at least be sufficient to deal with the debuffed foes that Saizo should be dealing with.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Saizo will only work at full investment with max dragonflowers.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Etheus

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

She was the first easily accesible red tome flier. Her stat spread was comparable to Tana and A!Camilla, I haven’t seen a soul who disputed Aversa’s usefulness and were sceptical about her performance.

I did see people complain about her when she was datamined. There were quite a bunch who complained about her HP being too low in their opinion at least.

[Ice Dragon]

19 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I may have worded it wrong, but I meant that they would usually get a new effect more in-line with their statspreads and use by players.

Kagero's Dart is perfectly in line with her stat spread, though. She boasts the second highest offensive stat spread after Sothe for infantry daggers and the worst defensive stat spread. A weapon that boosts her offensive stats while providing a way to survive combat is exactly what her stat spread wants.

As for "use by players", I think it's fair to say that Poison Dagger ceased to be a meta choice sometime around the weapon refinery update when most other daggers were significantly buffed, and the general lack of usage of infantry units until recently and Poison Dagger's extremely low stats and lack of refine options has pretty much cemented Smoke Dagger, Clorox, Barb Shuriken, Sky Maiougi, and Cloud Maiougi as the only inheritable daggers that actually get used on a consistent basis.