General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[silverserpent]

On 8/6/2019 at 3:47 PM, Kaden said:

Wait, Kronya doesn't have Atk Smoke 3 by default? Did you give him Distant Guard 3 from her or did you use a Kaze to give Boey Atk Smoke 3? If you gave Kronya Atk Smoke 3 and then used her to give Boey Atk Smoke 3...

....I remember sacrificing some unit I had excess of that I didn't care for and was 4* star. And it was a dagger, my thought went to Kronya since she's the one I care the least for.

Edited August 8, 2019 by silverserpent

[Kaden]

20 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Mae’s speed advantage is mostly irrelevant for special spamming since you’re trying to one-shot, whereas with a blade tome she can use Desperation instead of Special Spiral. Chill Res is also an excellent effect for any one-shot mage because it will tend to hit the enemy with the most magical bulk.

In the case of Special Spiral, yes, speed doesn't really matter when all you want it damage, but speed is a factor for a unit to set up Special Spiral by themselves as Lewyn can easily attest to that with Forseti allowing him to follow up immediately if he's fast enough and his HP is >= 50% which safely charges up to a 4 cooldown special with Flashing/Heavy Blade. Before Special Spiral is in play, if Mae fails to one-shot someone, but can double them, then with Heavy Blade, she will be able to charge her special and start a special spamming spree. Is it really necessary? No, since Lilina and Mae can just nuke two goons to death and charge their specials with Heavy Blade that way. Mae simply has another option she can take and more easily than Lilina.

Without Special Spiral considering it is a rare skill, Mae's higher speed allows her to choose between very high attack and decent speed with +Atk or high attack and high speed with +Spd. Lilina on the other hand chooses between very high attack and low speed with +Atk or high attack and almost decent speed with +Spd. There are other red mages with high speed and one of them has a personal -bladetome, but people do build +Spd Lilina. I believe the reasoning is that while she can stack attack so high, being able to double can let her do even more at the cost of some attack and some one-shots. Or they're crazy. Hell if I know.

With L&D3, +Spd Lilina has 56/34 offenses, 62 Atk when initiating, and 69 effective Atk when initiating on someone affected by Forblaze's Chill Res 3. At +10, +Spd Lilina would have 60/38 offenses, 66 when initiating, and 72 effective Atk when initiating on someone affected by Chill Res 3.

For Mae, +Atk Mae with L&D3 has 58/36 offenses and 64 Atk when initiating. At +10, +Atk Mae's offenses would be bumped up to 62/40 offenses and 68 Atk when initiating. +Spd Mae would have 55/39 offenses and 61 Atk when initiating. At +10, +Spd Mae's offenses would be 59/43 offenses and 65 when initiating.

Lilina has the advantage with Chill Res, but that assumes it's hitting someone she's targeting. If not or if Mae has someone on her team who debuffed her foes' resistance that much, then they're even or Mae probably has the advantage when she can double units Lilina can't.

One issue which is subjective since everyone values resources differently, is that Book of Orchids is stupidly cheap compared to Blarblade+ on Mae. With Book of Orchids, all you need to do is 5* Mae, get the SP to learn Book of Orchids, and slap Death Blow 3, Fury 3, L&D3, or whatever attack boosting passive you want on her. That's at most a 24k feathers investment if you only have a 3* Mae and 3* Hinata, Klein, or Sothe for the A passives. For Blarblade+, you're adding another 20k to 22k and personally, I'd rather give Blarblade+ to someone else or build an Odin at that point. You don't even need to refine the damn thing unlike with Forblaze to get the Death Blow 3 effect and that is not saying refining Forblaze is a bad decision or anything. Seriously, promote Mae, learn Book of Orchids, inherit some skills, and profit.

Could Book of Orchids been better? Yes, because it's a bit odd that they gave it the same unique refinement as Odin's Grimoire and on paper, making it a worse tome as a Death Blow 3 and Atk/Spd Link 3 tome compared to a personal -blade and Atk/Spd Link 3 tome. This is also considering that they could have given her a personal -blade tome in spite of Odin's existence or make her an infantry Reinhardt with a Brave tome. Def/Res Link 3 as useless as that would be for her would have at least been different and would let her toughen up her Boey. Or any of the Chill skills including Chill Def or Chill Res making it a copy of Forblaze, but with switched base and unique refinement effects.

[Hilda]

On 8/8/2019 at 2:28 AM, Ice Dragon said:

It's called Triangle Adept. +20-something Atk and +20-something Def against colorless relative to Gronnowl+ without the need for a Special activation is nothing to scoff at when one of the best nukes in the game is physical colorless.

As I stated before: He didnt have any problems going up against colorless bows and daggers without a Raventome before the refine (in my case at least). Hence why i would have liked a tome that actually fixes the Atk stat in general. The refine isnt adding much to the current close counter Litrblade set I am useing, its actually makeing it worse against colored foes. I am basicly trading a set which works excellent against colorless green and blue for a set that works good against colorless and somewhat meh against green and blue.

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, Kaden said:

 There are other red mages with high speed and one of them has a personal -bladetome, but people do build +Spd Lilina. I believe the reasoning is that while she can stack attack so high, being able to double can let her do even more at the cost of some attack and some one-shots. Or they're crazy. Hell if I know.

+spd Lilina is a terrible idea, no matter the build. She loses outright to either +atk Mae or +atk Tharja.

3 hours ago, Kaden said:

Could Book of Orchids been better? Yes, because it's a bit odd that they gave it the same unique refinement as Odin's Grimoire and on paper, making it a worse tome as a Death Blow 3 and Atk/Spd Link 3 tome compared to a personal -blade and Atk/Spd Link 3 tome. This is also considering that they could have given her a personal -blade tome in spite of Odin's existence or make her an infantry Reinhardt with a Brave tome. Def/Res Link 3 as useless as that would be for her would have at least been different and would let her toughen up her Boey. Or any of the Chill skills including Chill Def or Chill Res making it a copy of Forblaze, but with switched base and unique refinement effects.

It’s a good weapon, but considering the quality and variety of blue mages, not good enough. She needed something to carve her a niche, like Tome of Thoron did for Tailtiu.

[Kaden]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

+spd Lilina is a terrible idea, no matter the build. She loses outright to either +atk Mae or +atk Tharja.

When you love your character so much, anything is a reality. I don't use a +Spd Lilina, but it pops up every now and again on the FEH subreddit and yes, people question it by saying her speed is too low. People still do it any way and nothing will stop them. I get the idea, but if I wanted to use an in combat high offenses red mage, I'd use Celica and I wanted to use a high offenses red mage, I'd use Tharja. The former does assume someone has Celica. Lilina is simply an in combat high attack red mage who hopefully nukes people she initiates against.

At least +Spd Lilina is not as outrageous as people saying Oscar's lance is bad because of course a personal Killer lance is bad on a lance cavalry with 33/34 neutral offenses who probably can become a good Galeforce unit or just make use of the thing well and the Peri's unique refinement, Spectrum Brazen when she's not at full health, is worthless. Seriously: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/bbbxq9/im_not_the_only_peri_user_wholl_never_use_this/.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It’s a good weapon, but considering the quality and variety of blue mages, not good enough. She needed something to carve her a niche, like Tome of Thoron did for Tailtiu.

I am not disagreeing with that considering that we had several misses with weapon updates and some weapons or unique refinements feel like they won't stand the test of time or if all.

That said, it makes her kind of like a blue Lilina which we don't really have in terms of pure attack stacking and it works, but is it completely unique? No, puppet Delthea was introduced with arguably a similar role, but was faster for less attack. It was up to developers and they figured Death Blow 3 + Atk/Spd Link 3 was the best they could to Mae knowing what her peers have for personal tomes. This is the game where Saber ended up with a unique conditional DC sword letting him stand out in a very competitive group of sword infantry and make him more worthwhile as a 5* only summon while also giving Luke his personal Brave Sword with a unique refinement hinging on the foe not having field buffs or negating with Dull Close found only on summer Cordelia at the time and Lull passives which were introduced after his weapon update; and ignoring Meisterhardt's existence and that Luke is a 5* locked unit not always in the summoning pool. Luke wasn't a legend then and still isn't a legend now. If was a 4* summonable unit, then maybe he'd be legend.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Kaden

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Hilda said:

As I stated before: He didnt have any problems going up against colorless bows and daggers without a Raventome before the refine (in my case at least). Hence why i would have liked a tome that actually fixes the Atk stat in general. The refine isnt adding much to the current close counter Litrblade set I am useing, its actually makeing it worse against colored foes. I am basicly trading a set which works excellent against colorless green and blue for a set that works good against colorless and somewhat meh against green and blue.

Gronnblade Boey straight up dies to an Infantry Pulsed Alm and only barely gets the one-hit kill on the counterattack against an Alm with a default build. In contrast, Alm literally cannot kill Triangle Adept Inscribed Tome Boey without running a specialized build because none of Alm's standard builds work (they either die immediately to the counterattack or fail to have enough Atk to kill in two hits).

As for your comparison of the two builds, I'm running the numbers and finding Gronnblade and Triangle Adept Inscribed Tome having virtually identical performance on enemy phase. Gronnblade has better player-phase performance while Inscribed Tome has better sustain.

[Hilda]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gronnblade Boey straight up dies to an Infantry Pulsed Alm and only barely gets the one-hit kill on the counterattack against an Alm with a default build. In contrast, Alm literally cannot kill Triangle Adept Inscribed Tome Boey without running a specialized build because none of Alm's standard builds work (they either die immediately to the counterattack or fail to have enough Atk to kill in two hits).

As for your comparison of the two builds, I'm running the numbers and finding Gronnblade and Triangle Adept Inscribed Tome having virtually identical performance on enemy phase. Gronnblade has better player-phase performance while Inscribed Tome has better sustain.

Did you factor in Green and Blue opponents as well? And this is exactly what bugs me. The refine added basicly nothing for my allready existing Boey.

[Ice Dragon]

6 hours ago, Hilda said:

Did you factor in Green and Blue opponents as well? And this is exactly what bugs me. The refine added basicly nothing for my allready existing Boey.

Yes, I ran the calculations over everything except red. Why would you think otherwise?

[Jingle Jangle]

With the cyl 1 units getting a refine, I wonder if we are going to move on the gen 2 units?

[Some Jerk]

"Gee Dad, why does Mom let you have TWO refined Durandals?"

Seriously, I'm more hyped about what Eliwood stands to gain from Brave Roy's new refine, since he also has Blazing Durandal. This totally has nothing to do with me having a +10 Eliwood.

Conversely, Brave Lyn getting a refine scares me.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Some Jerk

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

With the cyl 1 units getting a refine, I wonder if we are going to move on the gen 2 units?

I hope not. There are still gen 1 units like Hawkeye, Barst, and Virion (just to name the ones I'm waiting on) that need them.

[Anacybele]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

I hope not. There are still gen 1 units like Hawkeye, Barst, and Virion (just to name the ones I'm waiting on) that need them.

Yeah, this. Frederick needs one too. He's not a bad unit, but he's not the most amazing either. In fact, axe cavalry in general in this game are blah because hardly any of them have great weapons and stats and they're so few to begin with.

Anyway, cool for the year one brave heroes, but I think Lyn should've been excluded. She's kind of broken already (there is a reason she's still used a lot in strats even today). Now she'll probably break the game in half.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Anacybele

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, this. Frederick needs one too. He's not a bad unit, but he's not the most amazing either. In fact, axe cavalry in general in this game are blah because hardly any of them have great weapons and stats and they're so few to begin with.

Anyway, cool for the year one brave heroes, but I think Lyn should've been excluded. She's kind of broken already (there is a reason she's still used a lot in strats even today). Now she'll probably break the game in half.

Well, the fortunate thing about Brave Lyn is that (like many archers) her meta is a Firesweep Bow or Brave Bow+. This update would have to be pretty kind to her for Mulagir to be better.

 

And I agree. Give Fred Fredburger a refine. It would be nice for axe cavalry to become a real option. I also really want Forde or Duessel for that role.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Well, the fortunate thing about Brave Lyn is that (like many archers) her meta is a Firesweep Bow or Brave Bow+. This update would have to be pretty kind to her for Mulagir to be better.

 

And I agree. Give Fred Fredburger a refine. It would be nice for axe cavalry to become a real option. I also really want Forde or Duessel for that role.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I did forget that some people run her with those weapons instead.

Exactly! I'd love Duessel too. He's cool. Kieran and Sylvain are my most wanted axe cavalry of all. Although Sylvain would probably be added with the Lance of Ruin as his weapon instead. An axe cav version of him would need to be an alt... >_<

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Anyway, cool for the year one brave heroes, but I think Lyn should've been excluded. She's kind of broken already (there is a reason she's still used a lot in strats even today). Now she'll probably break the game in half.

She is hardly game breaking. She is pretty easy to wall off with a super tank. She suffers from low damage whether she runs Firesweep, Brave Bow, or Mulagir. Firesweep does nothing against super tanks, quad Brave Bow have difficulty quad attacking due to the super tank's Spd, and Mulagir does jack shit against any properly built tank.

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, that's a fair point. I did forget that some people run her with those weapons instead.

Exactly! I'd love Duessel too. He's cool. Kieran and Sylvain are my most wanted axe cavalry of all. Although Sylvain would probably be added with the Lance of Ruin as his weapon instead. An axe cav version of him would need to be an alt... >_<

I think that the most likely axe cavalier for Three Houses would probably be Lorenz. 

 

Kieran would be nice as well, but I just want mah boi Forde and don't care what weapon type he uses (but give him a prf - no more of this new units with inheritable weapons only bullshit).

Edited August 27, 2019 by Etheus

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I think that the most likely axe cavalier for Three Houses would probably be Lorenz. 

 

Kieran would be nice as well, but I just want mah boi Forde and don't care what weapon type he uses.

Ugh, I don't really like Lorenz. But you're probably right.

I can see Forde being a sword cavy, but anything's possible, I guess!

[Fabulously Olivier]

41 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Ugh, I don't really like Lorenz. But you're probably right.

I can see Forde being a sword cavy, but anything's possible, I guess!

We all have to deal with characters we don't like getting in before characters we do. Every character that pleases someone will disappoint someone else (I mean there were probably like 5 wrong people in the entire universe who thought that Ike was disappointing).

 

I'm living in a universe in which Nowi (in my opinion the worst character in the entire franchise) has been in since the start as a permanent staple of the metagame and Nasir doesn't even get a look in. Think I'm happy about that? I'm not. I get to see a character that I loathe on a regular basis and know that I am willingly gimping my f2p potential by not using her myself.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Etheus

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

We all have to deal with characters we don't like getting in before characters we do. Every character that pleases someone will disappoint someone else (I mean there were probably like 5 wrong people in the entire universe who thought that Ike was disappointing).

 

I'm living in a universe in which Nowi (in my opinion the worst character in the entire franchise) has been in since the start as a permanent staple of the metagame and Nasir doesn't even get a look in. Think I'm happy about that?

Oh, I'm aware. Right now Micaiah's getting all sorts of attention because she got a shiny new brave alt and I despise her and think she's one of the worst written characters. She has to face RD Ike in the gauntlet too and he'll probably lose. But yeah, it's going to happen.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh, I'm aware. Right now Micaiah's getting all sorts of attention because she got a shiny new brave alt and I despise her and think she's one of the worst written characters. She has to face RD Ike in the gauntlet too and he'll probably lose. But yeah, it's going to happen.

And I felt the same way about Celica last year and Camilla this year.

 

Next year, I'll be voting for Edelgard and I'm sure a lot of people will hate that. We just take turns on the karma train.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Etheus

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

And I felt the same way about Celica last year and Camilla this year.

 

Next year, I'll be voting for Edelgard and I'm sure a lot of people will hate that. We just take turns on the karma train.

I'm voting for Claude, Sylvain, and Frederick. Yeah.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I'm voting for Claude, Sylvain, and Frederick. Yeah.

Seven votes was it?

 

My current plan is Edelgard, Claude, Dimitri, and Ninian for my frontrunner votes.

 

Nasir, Bastian, and Cormag for my "please just notice me" votes.

[Roflolxp54]

Pretty excited about this update. Mulagir definitely needs something to make itself more applicable nowadays since all it has is Spd +3 and Dull Tome 3, the latter of which has been already been long powercreeped by Dull Ranged 3 and Distant Defense 4, meaning Lyn's best sets are Brave Bow and Firesweep Bow.

Brave Lucina definitely needs to give out stronger support options.

Brave Roy mainly wants more Spd but Eliwood has an easier time being faster than him.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'm curious as to what they could possibly give Brave Ike.

 

Anyone who uses Urvan is likely to have already given him Shield Pulse, so adding that would just piss people off on a high investment skill.

 

Distant counter would undermine the weapon.

 

Changing the effect entirely would probably be the best option.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I've been waiting for a refine for Rebecca for AGES but holy heck I'll totally accept a refine for Brave Lyn! Best horse archer and possible most popular character deserves all the love! ❤️ Although the REALLY great thing about this is her being on another banner, giving me the possibility of finally getting her merged up to the +10 maximum.

I'm very curious about Brave Ike as well. I'm not sure what they could give him. Regardless, I have over 200 Divine Dew so him and Lyn will get refines.

5 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

With the cyl 1 units getting a refine, I wonder if we are going to move on the gen 2 units?

Nah, there's still too many units without refines for that. I'm thinking this was planned so it'd be close-ish to the CYL 3 banner.