General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I'd prefer Sturdy Stance over Sturdy Blow. But Sturdy Impact would be nice too!

And just for reference to show people that as I'd said, this is in fact Freddy's axe from FE Warriors!

I'M SO HAPPY CAUSE I LOVE THIS AXE AND I REALLY WANTED IT IN HEROES! 😄

I remember being so amazed that Koei made Frederick such a beautiful looking axe and now I get to use it in Heroes too! I really like the markings and shape!

At least it complements his color scheme.

 

It really grinds my gears more than it should when the weapon uses a totally different color scheme or has some kind of flag or gem color that doesn't appear anywhere on the character's outfit.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

At least it complements his color scheme.

 

It really grinds my gears more than it should when the weapon uses a totally different color scheme or has some kind of flag or gem color that doesn't appear anywhere on the character's outfit.

Yeah, it sure does!

That doesn't bug me much as long as the colors don't completely clash, personally. But I understand.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye: hoping for Slaying, Dragon Slaying, and Bracing Stance 2.

This would be excellent for his stat spread, but also kiiiiinda weird to think about him being a dragon murderer. Personally I've always wanted him to have the Tomahawk, but they gave that to Dorcas for some random reason. He'd appreciate some Distant Counter. And they opened the floodgate on refinable DC weapons by now, haven't they?

[Fabulously Olivier]

11 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

This would be excellent for his stat spread, but also kiiiiinda weird to think about him being a dragon murderer. Personally I've always wanted him to have the Tomahawk, but they gave that to Dorcas for some random reason. He'd appreciate some Distant Counter. And they opened the floodgate on refinable DC weapons by now, haven't they?

It would be a bit strange, I'll give you. But you could say that part of keeping Arcadia peaceful would be enforcing justice on those dragons that step out of line (or hell, just protecting it from intruders from Dragon's Gate).

 

Perhaps an alternative could be:

 

Slaying

Bracing Stance

Unit gains atk/spd/def/res +4 during combat when adjacent to a Dragon or Beast type ally. Unit does not prevent adjacent Beasts from transforming.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Etheus

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Rebecca. Refine. WHEN?!?!?!

*Ahem* Very curious about what Lute's refine will be. Is she the first Farfetched hero to get a refine?

[GreatKnightEcho]

On the one hand, IS continues to do my boi Henry dirty.

On the other hand, L00t and Virgin refines. Two characters I actually like (Frederick's pretty cool too). 7/10. Cant wait to see what Virion gets.

[Jotari]

We have a tonne of dragon slaying weapons already (albeit not many green ones). Let's keep them to the characters where it actually makes some degree of sense. Fredrick's propably the least reasonable character to give it to. There aren't even any enemy manaketes in the game outside of Child Tiki on some of the DLC maps. And Grima, kind of. Narcian would at least make marginally more sense as he at least hangs around dragons he'd need to keep under control and dragon effective axes exist in his universe (albeit in the prequel and not Sword of Seals).

Really they should put generic wyrmslayers and dragon axes in the inheritable pool already. They wouldn't be all that great as weapons go, but they'd have some use and they'd make the inheritable pool of weapons bigger.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Jotari

[Kaden]

10 hours ago, Etheus said:

It would be a bit strange, I'll give you. But you could say that part of keeping Arcadia peaceful would be enforcing justice on those dragons that step out of line (or hell, just protecting it from intruders from Dragon's Gate).

Speaking of Arcadia, Visions of Arcadia or a similar effect to it could make sense for Hawkeye. Legendary Eliwood's Visions of Arcadia has the effect of: "At start of turn, if a dragon or beast ally is deployed, grants Atk/Def+6 to ally with the highest Atk for 1 turn." The exact same copy could work, but it could overlap badly if Eliwood's on the team, so different stat buffs could work. With Hawkeye being a guardian and his axe being called Guardian's Axe, Def/Res+6 instead could work, and maybe it could target the ally with the highest defense or resistance instead. Or it could grant Bonus Doubler and be a copy of Ardent Durandal, but that could make a team of legendary Eliwood and Hawkeye be really stupid if their weapons target different units; so Ardent Durandal to an ally with the highest attack while Guardian Axe grants it to the ally with the highest defense or resistance. That's probably not going to happen then.

An opposite version of Human Virtue could work too. Legendary Roy's Human Virtue has the effect of: "At start of turn, if unit is adjacent to any allies that are not beast or dragon allies, grants Atk/Spd+6 to unit and those allies for 1 turn." For Hawkeye, he'd buff Atk/Spd+6 or whatever stats instead if he's adjacent to beast or dragon allies instead.

10 hours ago, Etheus said:

Unit gains atk/spd/def/res +4 during combat when adjacent to a Dragon or Beast type ally. Unit does not prevent adjacent Beasts from transforming.

Kind of reminds me of Oscar's Loyal Greatlance's unique refinement effect: "Grants Atk/Spd+3 to infantry and cavalry allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an infantry or cavalry ally, grants Atk/Spd+3 during combat."

Hawkeye doesn't really care for speed and for a guardian theme it could be something like: "Grants Def/Res+5 to beast and dragon allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of a beast or dragon ally, grants Atk/Def/Res+4 during combat." He protects them and grows strong to protect them. Maybe the stat buffs are too much.

Something that also came to mind for Hawkeye was Mercurius. The introduction of Astram and Mercurius was really cool and Mercurius's effect of "At start of turn, if unit's HP ≥ 50%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit and sword, lance, axe, bow, dagger, or beast allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are within 2 spaces.)" lets Astram be a pretty good support unit on top of being a capable offensive unit with his stats. For Hawkeye, they could give Guardian's Axe a unique refinement effect that covers the magic part along with beasts to Mercurius's physical coverage and incidentally, it would tie in with Hawkeye's relationships.

That is to say: "At start of turn, if unit's HP ≥ 50%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit and magic, staff, beast, or dragon allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are within 2 spaces.)" Magic and staff would point to Athos, Pent, and assuming he's alive during Binding Blade and met her, Clarine, and dragons would point to the village he lives in where humans and dragons coexist and Ninian who he can support. Beasts don't exist in Elibe, but Hawkeye and the place where he comes from would probably be okay with them. The only people left out are Igrene, Klein if he was alive and met him, and Louise who use bows. Bows could be added in for that or not for the magic buffing to Mercurius's physical buffing. The iffy part about this effect is that Hawkeye would be an easy -blade tome buffer even if he's not giving the strongest of buffs as he'd be able to grant Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to a -blade mage when his HP is >= 50%. It also makes Linde's refined Aura look crappy in comparison which Mercurius also kind of did to Eirika's Sieglinde, Ephraim's Siegmund, and Delthea's Dark Aura. She will always be able to give Atk+6 to magic and staff allies unlike Hawkeye who needs to have at least half his HP, but she can only buff their attack if she's adjacent to them and only attack while Hawkeye buffs all their other stats which they may or may not want and if they're within 2 spaces.

To list these unique refinement ideas:

• Visions of Arcadia or a similar effect: "At start of turn, if a dragon or beast ally is deployed, grants X/Y+6 to ally with the highest Z for 1 turn."
  • Maybe Ardent Durandal's effect or a similar one that grants Bonus Doubler if you want to go crazier.
• An opposite effect of Human Virtue: "At start of turn, if unit is adjacent to a beast or dragon ally, grants Atk/Spd+6 to unit and those allies for 1 turn."
• Beast and dragon ally version of Loyal Greatlance's unique refinement effect: "Grants X/Y+3 to beast and dragon allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of a beast or dragon ally, grants X/Y+3 during combat."
• Magic version of Mercurius: "At start of turn, if unit's HP ≥ 50%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit and magic, staff, beast, or dragon allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are within 2 spaces.)"
  • Add in bow allies if you want it to be a Hawkeye relationship thing so he can cover Athos and Pent (magic and staff), Igrene and Louise (bows), Pent and Louise's children Klein and Clarine (bow and staff), and dragons along with beasts.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Kaden

[Ice Dragon]

Frederick:

I'm hoping he'll keep his Armor-effective damage and gain either Slaying or Brave as its base effect. It would be sad to not get either of these effects as a base effect, but that's certainly a possibility.

If they go for a player-phase focus, I can see Sturdy Impact as a refine effect since he doesn't naturally have access to the skill. If they go for an enemy-phase focus, I'm expecting Sturdy Stance or maybe a Breath effect.

Honestly, I'm just hoping that they give him a weapon with a clearly defined and coherent role.

Virion:

Honestly, anything coherent would work since he literally has no real role at present.

Hawkeye:

Slaying Axe with Special Fighter refine. Make it happen.

Lute:

I'm hoping for Blizzard since she's obviously intended to be a debuff-oriented unit. Saizo's Star, a debuff version of Niu, or something that gives stat boosts and prevents follow-ups if the opponent has a debuff (like Fell Breath, but for debuffs instead of damage) would also be cool.

[XRay]

I want Virion do something with his HP stat, and hopefully it uses max HP rather current HP, cause Boosts kind of suck.

Maybe conditional Firesweep Brave if his HP is equal to or greater than foe's HP+10, so he can safely target those bulky armor units and maybe quad them.

For Lute, I hope it makes her Ploys thicker. Ploy as is feels too narrow to be worth using compared to a stat booster.

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm hoping for Blizzard since she's obviously intended to be a debuff-oriented unit.

Basically Blade tome in disguise.

It would be cool if they do something interesting with Blade effect like boosting Atk by 75% of buffs/debuffs, and the rest of the 25% can go into Spd.

[Kaden]

32 minutes ago, XRay said:

I want Virion do something with his HP stat, and hopefully it uses max HP rather current HP, cause Boosts kind of suck.

Congratulations! Virion's Dignified Bow will now have the effects of Obstruct 3 and Pass 3.

Well, they could do introduce the fourth level of Boost skills through Virion since Boost skills aren't that great like how Lyn ended up with Brash Assault 4 for her Sol Katti. So, something like the base effect of Dignified Bow being Wind Boost 4 as "At start of combat, if unit's total HP ≥ foe's total HP+3, grants Spd+8 during combat." Might be better to have it be Fire/Wind Boost and a unique version for him, though, "At start of combat, if unit's total HP ≥ foe's total HP+3, grants Atk/Spd+6 during combat." Problem is that I don't know how the wording would be for total HP since I don't think we have anything like that yet.

Or if you just want to make use of his HP and that doesn't involve Panic Ploy, Sudden Panic, Aversa's Night's Panic and debuff effect, or bride Fjorm's Gjallarbru's Isolation effect, then Divine Tyrfing and maybe extended to staff damage too and the 50% damage reduction instead of 30% like with refined Brynhildr and Parthia, Hel Scythe or refined Tyrfing's Miracle effects, or even unique refined Urvan because fuck everything and let's have Virion be able to take 40% less damage from the first hit of any attack and 80% from consecutive attacks.

And cue Dignified Bow's effect being the exact same as unique refined Cymbeline. Yes, exactly. Virion would get Atk/Res+5 during combat if he's within 2 spaces of a flying ally e.g. Cherche. That sweet, sweet 18 Res during combat is so going to help him. At least his allies would get Drive Atk 2 from him.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Kaden

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Kaden said:

Problem is that I don't know how the wording would be for total HP since I don't think we have anything like that yet.

Japanese uses "最大HP", "Maximum HP", in the descriptions for the Retribution line of skills. English decided to derp on the translation of those, though.

[Jotari]

Although it probably wouldn't serve to making him all that better as a unit, I prefer references over function so I'd like to see Virion get Escape Route on his weapon, as his whole deal was that he managed to flee to Ylisse when his country was invaded. 

[Kaden]

Because watching the world burn is fun, it would be hilarious if Reinhardt and Olwen ended up with Lull Spd/Res 3 as Dire Thunder's unique refinement. And maybe eventually they could stack Lull Spd/Res 3 with it for Spd/Res-6 against their foes.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

12 hours ago, Kaden said:

Because watching the world burn is fun, it would be hilarious if Reinhardt and Olwen ended up with Lull Spd/Res 3 as Dire Thunder's unique refinement. And maybe eventually they could stack Lull Spd/Res 3 with it for Spd/Res-6 against their foes.

 

What the fuck is wrong with you

 

[XRay]

18 hours ago, Kaden said:

Because watching the world burn is fun, it would be hilarious if Reinhardt and Olwen ended up with Lull Spd/Res 3 as Dire Thunder's unique refinement. And maybe eventually they could stack Lull Spd/Res 3 with it for Spd/Res-6 against their foes.

That would be nice.

6 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

What the fuck is wrong with you

It is not that bad. Tanking Reinhardt is pretty easy with a super tank. Even my Sharena can do it against a Lancebreaker Reinhardt.

[Kaden]

20 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

What the fuck is wrong with you

On 9/28/2019 at 2:19 PM, Kaden said:

Because watching the world burn is fun...

Watch green Olwen get it instead. Lull Spd/Res on a personal -blade tome.

On 9/28/2019 at 3:12 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Japanese uses "最大HP", "Maximum HP", in the descriptions for the Retribution line of skills. English decided to derp on the translation of those, though.

Yeah, they dropped the ball on the description for the Retribution line of skills. "Boosts damage by 30%/50% of damage dealt to unit" isn't entirely correct as it's missing the maximum HP part and it's a short description, so they could have added or reworded it into something else like "Boosts damage by 30%/50% of unit's missing HP" which is the other stat special wording i.e. like the Glowing Ember line's description: "Boosts damage by 50%/80% of unit's Def."

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

Yeah, they dropped the ball on the description for the Retribution line of skills. "Boosts damage by 30%/50% of damage dealt to unit" isn't entirely correct as it's missing the maximum HP part and it's a short description, so they could have added or reworded it into something else like "Boosts damage by 30%/50% of unit's missing HP" which is the other stat special wording i.e. like the Glowing Ember line's description: "Boosts damage by 50%/80% of unit's Def."

Yeah, the Japanese description for the Retribution series is pretty thorough and clear (example below is for Vengeance):

自分の（最大HP－現HP）の50%を
奥義ダメージに加算

which translates to "Adds 50% of unit's (maximum HP − current HP) to Special damage".

[MasterSlayerX]

Virion could always get a bow refinement based on his personality. prehaps the requirements being if adjustant to a female unit or 2 squares away from a female unit he gets more spd and atk?  they could then add the skill effects of this bow to Sylvain as a unique A or C rank skill 

 

Hawkeye could get the Devils Axe prehaps a axe with Fury 2 , -1 cooldown but takes -2 more hp (6 in total with Fury 2) 

 

Gunter - Bone Axe - +3 res . if standing next to a allie +3 def and res to him and allies.

 

Canas - Nosferatu - +5 HP . Heals the user a small amount of points of HP on a Special Use

 

Rebecca - Ballista -  -1 Move , +1 Range Cannot be countered if at max range (limited amount of 3 range shots to prevent battles against armored units going on forever)

Edited September 30, 2019 by MasterSlayerX

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Virion could always get a bow refinement based on his personality. prehaps the requirements being if adjustant to a female unit or 2 squares away from a female unit he gets more spd and atk?  they could then add the skill effects of this bow to Sylvain as a unique A or C rank skill 

 

Hawkeye could get the Devils Axe prehaps a axe with Fury 2 , -1 cooldown but takes -2 more hp (6 in total with Fury 2) 

 

Gunter - Bone Axe - +3 res . if standing next to a allie +3 def and res to him and allies.

 

Canas - Nosferatu - +5 HP . Heals the user a small amount of points of HP on a Special Use

 

Rebecca - Ballista -  -1 Move , +1 Range Cannot be countered if at max range (limited amount of 3 range shots to prevent battles against armored units going on forever)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but male and female distinquishing between units isn't a trait that's been implemented into the game yet. Like we can obviously tell who's make and female even among the generics based on appearance, but there's been no weapons or quests or anything (even supports) that distinguish between the two. If they were to introduce something like that into the game, I'd expect they'd do four at once just to justify the change in gameplay (probably with someone getting the Lady Sword).

[XRay]

9 hours ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Hawkeye could get the Devils Axe prehaps a axe with Fury 2 , -1 cooldown but takes -2 more hp (6 in total with Fury 2) 

I do not see any point in nerfing Hawkeye with Fury 2 and he is already a first generation unit in need of more stats. Mystletainn has Fury 3 and Slaying effect.

9 hours ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Gunter - Bone Axe - +3 res . if standing next to a allie +3 def and res to him and allies.

That is way too weak. For comparison, Marth grants all stats +2 to all allies within 2 spaces. If you want to stick with adjacency, that combat boost better be something like Def/Res+8 or higher or else it really is not worth using when Kaden and M!Corrin already exist to give massive boosts. Gunter also has shit Res, so giving him Res+3 and another Res+3 is nowhere enough to make him tank magical attacks.

9 hours ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Canas - Nosferatu - +5 HP . Heals the user a small amount of points of HP on a Special Use

Sustainability in general is terrible on a combat unit. Sustainability skills on a combat unit is already mostly shit when most nukes can overwhelm that healing with their high damage output, and Canas is just better off running Res Refinement to boost his Res further so he needs less healing in the first place. Healing is generally better done with support units like Eir, Herons, staff users, etc.

If you want players to actually use that special Refinement, it has to be a large amount of HP being healed, or else players would just go with Res Refinement.

10 hours ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Rebecca - Ballista -  -1 Move , +1 Range Cannot be countered if at max range (limited amount of 3 range shots to prevent battles against armored units going on forever)

There is nothing wrong with unlimited amount of max range shots. The whole point of Firesweep Bow is to kite enemies, and there is no limit to how often that can be used. Rebecca is already super slow movement wise with that armor movement, and limiting her max range attack to 3 shots further jeopardizes her viability as a unit. Having limited 3 range attacks is not worth suffering through armor movement when players can do it better with Firesweep Bow.

[MasterSlayerX]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

I do not see any point in nerfing Hawkeye with Fury 2 and he is already a first generation unit in need of more stats. Mystletainn has Fury 3 and Slaying effect.

That is way too weak. For comparison, Marth grants all stats +2 to all allies within 2 spaces. If you want to stick with adjacency, that combat boost better be something like Def/Res+8 or higher or else it really is not worth using when Kaden and M!Corrin already exist to give massive boosts. Gunter also has shit Res, so giving him Res+3 and another Res+3 is nowhere enough to make him tank magical attacks.

Sustainability in general is terrible on a combat unit. Sustainability skills on a combat unit is already mostly shit when most nukes can overwhelm that healing with their high damage output, and Canas is just better off running Res Refinement to boost his Res further so he needs less healing in the first place. Healing is generally better done with support units like Eir, Herons, staff users, etc.

If you want players to actually use that special Refinement, it has to be a large amount of HP being healed, or else players would just go with Res Refinement.

There is nothing wrong with unlimited amount of max range shots. The whole point of Firesweep Bow is to kite enemies, and there is no limit to how often that can be used. Rebecca is already super slow movement wise with that armor movement, and limiting her max range attack to 3 shots further jeopardizes her viability as a unit. Having limited 3 range attacks is not worth suffering through armor movement when players can do it better with Firesweep Bow.

Looking at these I agree . Il rethink Hawkeye . +8 def and res sounds better for Gunter . Canas could always have a ability that lets his specials drain a % of life or for his regular attacks to drain a % of life based on the damage he deals . Rebecca ballista the only reason I said limited ammo was to prevent a soft lock if a AI somehow got into a situation of moving away from a armoured unit and with Rebecca’s strength was dealing no damage it would be a infinite loop without a fail safe . Would be more than 3 shots and it would only impact the max 3 range shots so eventually it could unsoft lock itself if that situation ever happened and the armor unit would be able to fight . I would say maybe take the -1 move but prevent the unit able to travel in forests and prehaps If not a limit to ammo a super effective vs armored units may solve any chance of a lock 

[Jotari]

I don't see them ever implementing three range weapons with the Heroes is set up, both in the UI and weapon types. If they're to implement traditional long range weapons then it'll probably just be regular two range weapons but with Savage Blow built in to represent splash damage.

[XRay]

5 hours ago, MasterSlayerX said:

Rebecca ballista the only reason I said limited ammo was to prevent a soft lock if a AI somehow got into a situation of moving away from a armoured unit and with Rebecca’s strength was dealing no damage it would be a infinite loop without a fail safe . Would be more than 3 shots and it would only impact the max 3 range shots so eventually it could unsoft lock itself if that situation ever happened and the armor unit would be able to fight . I would say maybe take the -1 move but prevent the unit able to travel in forests and prehaps If not a limit to ammo a super effective vs armored units may solve any chance of a lock 

We already have a fail safe to end the infinite loop by surrendering the map, so having infinite loops is not really a problem. We can already create an infinite loop on maps by using a ranged unit with high Def/Res being surrounded by melee enemies.

[MilodicMellodi]

I know Kagero already has Kagero's Dart and a refine for that weapon, but I feel like Poison Dagger+ needs to finally have a refine and anti-infantry weapons need to start being introduced to the game. It's gotten to the point where most infantry units — especially new ones — don't feel threatened by Poison Dagger+. Kagero herself lost her anti-infantry niche because that niche was and is no longer competitively viable for her. Not only does it have the lowest Might of any 5-Star weapon in the game, but the units that can use it either have low Atk or are Glass Cannons.

It's to the point in the game where it no longer matters about quantity as much as quality. On paper, being able to have a weapon that has effectiveness against a majority of units in the game seems really powerful, right? But with such a low Might on it, and units new and old globally having the ability to increase their stats with Dragonflowers in addition to having access to more and more powerful skills (don't even get me started on Fort. Def/Res 3...)...such a weak weapon scales badly against these odds, even when its user partakes in Dragonflowers and powerful skills itself.

At the very least, I feel like Poison Dagger+ needs to be bumped up to 12 Might in its refine and have the same basic options as other refines (HP+2 and either Atk+1, Spd+2, Def+3, or Res+3), and other weapon types should have access to anti-infantry options (naming them Venin would definitely be within the realm of possibility).

Now, I know I argued a long time ago that infantry was the weakest class in the game. That, however, was before infantry-exclusive skills were prevalent or even available. Infantry Pulse itself is widely known as the most busted of them, potentially granting a dedicated Infantry Emblem team's lowest HP unit in a defending Aether Raids battle full charge on their 5-cooldown special before they even move on Turn 1. They also have inheritance exclusivity to the Null Passives and Time's Pulse, three of the most versatile skills currently in the game. So I think it seems clear that Infantry needs to be taken down a notch, especially when there are a multitude of high-Might weapons that deal effective damage to the other movement types while there's only 1 single low-Might weapon to deal with the majority of available units.

Edited October 1, 2019 by MilodicMellodi