General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Which makes me happy, because I like Lull Skills! 🙂

At this rate, my green merge projects are going to exceed my others by a substantial margin. It's weird because axe wielders are one of the least populated weapon types, but I tend to disproportionately like greens, and Hawkeye is one I've been waiting to work on for a while.

 

I wish I liked blue units as much. I actually hate most of the f2p infantry lances and armors as characters, with Lukas and Reinhardt currently being my only complete blue merges.

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

(Luna targets enemy Def/Res, not Atk.)

That's not entirely true. You'll notice that Draconic Aura and Dragon Fang have 30% and 50% multipliers instead of the usual 50% and 80% that Bonfire, Ignis, Iceberg, and Glacies have. They very well could have made Dragon Fang be "boosts damage by 80% of unit's Atk−15" (the 15 base comes from Chaos Named), but opted for the simpler effect. I figure that they chose to the simplicity of using smaller multipliers as an alternative to setting a higher base to account for the existence of weapons. As such, it's clear that where the baseline stands dictated the skills' effects, and the skills were originally tuned to where that baseline is.

It's also worth noting that zero is an actual hard baseline for every (non-HP) stat in the game. Any points of stats lost beyond zero do not actually lower the stat past zero. Because of this, Bonfire won't reduce the damage you deal on activation if this happens, and damage you take will not continue to be increased. This hard baseline means that Bonfire's effect really does behave as "boosts damage by 0 plus 50% of unit's Def points above 0", which is analogous to my description of Dragon Fang as "boosts damage by 10 plus 50% of unit's Atk points above 20". The points in Def that you got that contribute to the hard baseline (e.g. if you have base 10 Def and -13 Def in debuffs, you're getting 3 points of Def for free) did not contribute to Bonfire damage because Bonfire doesn't care about points of Def below the hard baseline to begin with. As such, you can technically do the same with any other stat and raise the functional baseline to a point where the stat simply cannot go below (not because it's prevented from going below, but because you've run out of mechanics to subtract stats past that point), though Atk is the only stat where said functional baseline (at 5-star level 40) is not also zero.

But I digress.

Nah, you regress, not digress. That's basically what you were saying the first time, which I agree with. I was just pointing out how those "free points" do count for something in the game due to certain skills, which is a point independent of the core of your point which was comparing characters to other characters. Hence why my response was (freely admitted) pedantic, unnecessary and unhelpful.

[Diovani Bressan]

12 minutes ago, Etheus said:

At this rate, my green merge projects are going to exceed my others by a substantial margin. It's weird because axe wielders are one of the least populated weapon types, but I tend to disproportionately like greens, and Hawkeye is one I've been waiting to work on for a while.

I wish I liked blue units as much. I actually hate most of the f2p infantry lances and armors as characters, with Lukas and Reinhardt currently being my only complete blue merges.

I liked Hawkeye's weapon because it very similar to Lukas' weapon, but Lukas' grants Atk/Def+4 if foe initiates combat, and Hawkeye's inflicts Atk/Def-3 in both phases, which is basically Atk+3 and Def/Res+3. But Hawkeye's also nullifies foe's Atk and Def buffs, which is great!

Edited October 8, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I liked Hawkeye's weapon because it very similar to Lukas' weapon, but Lukas' grants Atk/Def+4 if foe initiates combat, and Hawkeye's inflicts Atk/Def-3 in both phases, which is basically Atk+3 and Def/Res+3. But Hawkeye's also nullifies foe's Atk and Def buffs, which is great!

Oh, it puts Lukas's refine to shame. In exchange for 1 atk and 1 def on EP, he gains dual phase use, buff nullification, and res +3. 

 

And while you could say that Lukas has a more min-maxed stat line, the flip side of that is that Hawkeye has great mixed bulk.

[Diovani Bressan]

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Disappointed. All Frederick gets is armor effectiveness and Death Blow? This isn't a brave weapon, IS. Extremely underwhelming. I'm sticking with my Slaying Axe build. Can't believe I waited all this time and got my hopes up for nothing...

Wait, did you want a Brave Weapon?

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Wait, did you want a Brave Weapon?

No, I meant that Death Blow is better with player phase units and brave weapons. Not that I wanted one. I actually would've preferred Sturdy Stance or Fierce Stance or anything that works with enemy phase and his Atk and Def stats.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Anacybele

[Ice Dragon]

Hawkeye: Pretty much exactly what he wanted. No complaints or additional comments necessary here.

Lute: Better than expected. I'm a bit iffy on the switch from Ploy to Sabotage since which one is better depends on the game mode (Ploy is usually better in Arena, Sabotage is usually better in Aether Raids), but I can't argue with the debuff being for 2 stats instead of 1 and the Penalty Victory refine effect.

Virion: The unfortunate thing about his weapon is that his HP is still only in the middle of the pack when compared to armors, making it more difficult to land the Sudden Panic and HP Victory effects on them. Then there's just the fact that his stats are rather middling as he only hits 35/35 offenses with HP Victory active. He'll be good against non-armors and he'll be good with Dark Takumi or Halloween Hector, but he'll still struggle against dragons and armors, and both effects are nearly useless in Abyssal maps. His best bet is to run double Savage Blow to help keep enemy HP low.

Frederick: Makes armors explode, but isn't terribly helpful against other units. +10 Frederick [+Atk] (Frederick's Axe [unique], Death Blow 4, Sturdy Blow 2) +6/6/0/0 lets him hit for 123 effective Atk against armors. For general use, you'll still want to use either Brave Axe+ or Slaying Axe+, but making armors explode is still extremely useful for Arena Assault and Aether Raids.

 

4 hours ago, Etheus said:

I won't be doing that because QR and Wrath have anti-synergy.

That's not quite accurate. Activating in two different HP ranges is somewhat of a synergy in itself as the two skills complement each other, covering the HP range that the other doesn't and leaving no gaps. (I also recommend Quick Riposte on Ares's Vantage build to cover for his first round of combat before he can use Vantage nukes.)

Furthermore, because Quick Riposte checks HP at the beginning of combat and Wrath checks HP the moment the Special activates, the hit that knocks you out of Quick Riposte range will also trigger Wrath's extra damage on the following Special activation, leading to one extra-deadly round of combat.

[Anacybele]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Frederick: Makes armors explode, but isn't terribly helpful against other units. +10 Frederick [+Atk] (Frederick's Axe [unique], Death Blow 4, Sturdy Blow 2) +6/6/0/0 lets him hit for 123 effective Atk against armors. For general use, you'll still want to use either Brave Axe+ or Slaying Axe+, but making armors explode is still extremely useful for Arena Assault and Aether Raids.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do probably want to keep Frederick's weapon in mind for AR teams that fill up with armors at least. But I still won't have +Atk on him... Can't just switch up an asset whenever I want like skills after all.

[XRay]

17 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do probably want to keep Frederick's weapon in mind for AR teams that fill up with armors at least. But I still won't have +Atk on him... Can't just switch up an asset whenever I want like skills after all.

I think that would be a pretty good feature to implement, letting your units switch Assets. It would also be a good idea to allow units the option to keep the Flaws. -HP is highly desirable for Player Phase and Counter-Vantage units to make reaching HP thresholds easier, and -Spd is great on slow tanks to ensure enemies double to activate a stronger Special. I think it would be great to let you switch to any Asset and Flaw that your unit has eaten via merges.

[Fabulously Olivier]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think that would be a pretty good feature to implement, letting your units switch Assets. It would also be a good idea to allow units the option to keep the Flaws. -HP is highly desirable for Player Phase and Counter-Vantage units to make reaching HP thresholds easier, and -Spd is great on slow tanks to ensure enemies double to activate a stronger Special. I think it would be great to let you switch to any Asset and Flaw that your unit has eaten via merges.

Assuming that the game is even programmed to remember these things after merges. 

 

47 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Hawkeye: Pretty much exactly what he wanted. No complaints or additional comments necessary here.

Lute: Better than expected. I'm a bit iffy on the switch from Ploy to Sabotage since which one is better depends on the game mode (Ploy is usually better in Arena, Sabotage is usually better in Aether Raids), but I can't argue with the debuff being for 2 stats instead of 1 and the Penalty Victory refine effect.

Virion: The unfortunate thing about his weapon is that his HP is still only in the middle of the pack when compared to armors, making it more difficult to land the Sudden Panic and HP Victory effects on them. Then there's just the fact that his stats are rather middling as he only hits 35/35 offenses with HP Victory active. He'll be good against non-armors and he'll be good with Dark Takumi or Halloween Hector, but he'll still struggle against dragons and armors, and both effects are nearly useless in Abyssal maps. His best bet is to run double Savage Blow to help keep enemy HP low.

Frederick: Makes armors explode, but isn't terribly helpful against other units. +10 Frederick [+Atk] (Frederick's Axe [unique], Death Blow 4, Sturdy Blow 2) +6/6/0/0 lets him hit for 123 effective Atk against armors. For general use, you'll still want to use either Brave Axe+ or Slaying Axe+, but making armors explode is still extremely useful for Arena Assault and Aether Raids.

 

That's not quite accurate. Activating in two different HP ranges is somewhat of a synergy in itself as the two skills complement each other, covering the HP range that the other doesn't and leaving no gaps. (I also recommend Quick Riposte on Ares's Vantage build to cover for his first round of combat before he can use Vantage nukes.)

Furthermore, because Quick Riposte checks HP at the beginning of combat and Wrath checks HP the moment the Special activates, the hit that knocks you out of Quick Riposte range will also trigger Wrath's extra damage on the following Special activation, leading to one extra-deadly round of combat.

I suppose that one interesting note about characters like Virion and Aversa is that they are great candidates for Summoner Support (because they get the highest possible benefit from +5 hp, on top of helping out their other stats), as well as naturally good candidates for Duel skills for Arena scoring.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Etheus

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Assuming that the game is even programmed to remember these things after merges. 

It most likely does not, but they can grandfather in merged units, so any +4 units would have access to all Assets and Flaws. For merged units with less than +4, the game can just give them give them Assets and Flaws based on their level 1 stats, so if they are +2, they get HP and their next highest stat at level 1 as Assets, and they get their two lowest stats as Flaws.

Edited October 8, 2019 by XRay

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

It most likely does not, but they can grandfather in merged units, so any +4 units would have access to all Assets and Flaws. For merged units with less than +4, the game can just give them give them Assets and Flaws based on their level 1 stats, so if they are +2, they get HP and their next highest stat at level 1 as Assets, and they get their two lowest stats as Flaws.

I wouldn't expect anything so generous. If any such thing is ever implemented, I imagine it would be a QoL feature exclusive to +10 units, but I'd certainly love for it to be implemented with unlocking new assets at certain merge tiers. Perhaps res at +2, def at +4, spd at +6, atk at +8, and hp at +10.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Assuming that the game is even programmed to remember these things after merges. 

 

If you upgrade a 4* merged to 5*, the merge disappears and you get your bane back. 

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

If you upgrade a 4* merged to 5*, the merge disappears and you get your bane back. 

That's the Flaw on the base unit. Xray is talking about the Assets and Flaws on the fodder units, which are almost certainly discarded after merging.

[Hilda]

i wonder do the in combat debuffs from Lull skills stack? because a double Atk/Def Lull Hawkeye could be very nice. He is basicly getting 6 more bulk on both side and 6 more Atk If they stack, which they should considering they are in combat debuffs.

Thinking of building up my +10 Hawkeye (he was my first 5 Star i got back then at the launch of the game).

Refined personal weapon (Lull atk/def)
Noon Time (or any 2 turn cooldown special that turns into a 1- turn cooldown special)
Fortress Def/Res 3
Lull Atk/def
C : Flexible
Seal: QR

Since he is so slow he is guaranteed to get doubled by anything. Its basicly a 44 Def/45 Res Hawkey with 58 Atk (i have Neutral IVs on him). No distant counter or guard might hurt a bit ._.

he has 96/97 bulk on both ends which is pretty good mixed bulk, not excellent but good

@Ice DragonCare to elaborate on Hawkeyes bulk and optimal builds for a mixed bulk unit? He seems okeish, but it seems like he is one important not released yet Tier 4 skill away from being good.
 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Hilda

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Hilda said:

i wonder do the in combat debuffs from Lull skills stack?

There's no reason they shouldn't stack since all other in-combat stat changes stack with each other.

 

5 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Care to elaborate on Hawkeyes bulk and optimal builds for a mixed bulk unit? He seems okeish, but it seems like he is one important not released yet Tier 4 skill away from being good.

Depends on exactly what you want to do, but here are some options:

Special:

• Moonbow, Bonfire/Iceberg, Noontime, Sol, or Aether, depending on whether or not you have a Breath effect active.

Passive A:

• If you're using him as a Distant Counter tank, obviously run Distant Counter.
• Otherwise, you have Fortress Def/Res, Steady Stance 4, and Warding Stance 4 depending on what you want him to do.
• Breath skills are also viable here to run a stronger Special, but you could also just glue a Lucina to him now that Lucina is S-tier support.

Passive B:

• If you're going for a Lull skill, it's a toss-up between Lull Atk/Spd and Lull Atk/Def. Lull Atk/Spd reduces your damage output by 3 per hit, but shuts down a potential 6 more points of Litrblade buffs compared to Lull Atk/Def, but it's your call which one is more important. If you're not running Distant Counter, then stick with Lull Atk/Def since the only melee Litrblade unit is Laevatein. However, do note that if you run anything in this slot that isn't Quick Riposte, the opportunity cost is your Sacred Seal slot, which may be stronger than the skill chosen for this slot depending on the situation.
• Null C-Disrupt is a decent option on a Distant Counter build if you need something to deal with Dazzling Staff.
• Wrath is a thing.
• Guard is... okay, I guess. The HP restriction on Guard kind of sucks, though.
• Quick Riposte is obviously an option if you're running something else for the Sacred Seal (such as Def/Res Bond, Close Def, or Distant Def).

Passive C:

• If you're running Distant Counter, then Pulse Smoke is the best option if you have it.
• Otherwise, it doesn't matter quite as much, and you should run whatever benefits him or the team most.

Sacred Seal:

• Quick Riposte if you're not running it in the B slot.
• Def/Res Bond, Close Def, Distant Def, or Fortress Res if you're running Quick Riposte in the B slot.

[Hilda]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's no reason they shouldn't stack since all other in-combat stat changes stack with each other.

 

Depends on exactly what you want to do, but here are some options:

Special:

• Moonbow, Bonfire/Iceberg, Noontime, Sol, or Aether, depending on whether or not you have a Breath effect active.

Passive A:

• If you're using him as a Distant Counter tank, obviously run Distant Counter.
• Otherwise, you have Fortress Def/Res, Steady Stance 4, and Warding Stance 4 depending on what you want him to do.
• Breath skills are also viable here to run a stronger Special, but you could also just glue a Lucina to him now that Lucina is S-tier support.

Passive B:

• If you're going for a Lull skill, it's a toss-up between Lull Atk/Spd and Lull Atk/Def. Lull Atk/Spd reduces your damage output by 3 per hit, but shuts down a potential 6 more points of Litrblade buffs compared to Lull Atk/Def, but it's your call which one is more important. If you're not running Distant Counter, then stick with Lull Atk/Def since the only melee Litrblade unit is Laevatein. However, do note that if you run anything in this slot that isn't Quick Riposte, the opportunity cost is your Sacred Seal slot, which may be stronger than the skill chosen for this slot depending on the situation.
• Null C-Disrupt is a decent option on a Distant Counter build if you need something to deal with Dazzling Staff.
• Wrath is a thing.
• Guard is... okay, I guess. The HP restriction on Guard kind of sucks, though.
• Quick Riposte is obviously an option if you're running something else for the Sacred Seal (such as Def/Res Bond, Close Def, or Distant Def).

Passive 😄

• If you're running Distant Counter, then Pulse Smoke is the best option if you have it.
• Otherwise, it doesn't matter quite as much, and you should run whatever benefits him or the team most.

Sacred Seal:

• Quick Riposte if you're not running it in the B slot.
• Def/Res Bond, Close Def, Distant Def, or Fortress Res if you're running Quick Riposte in the B slot.

This is exactly what i thought, His combat performance is so tied to Quick Riposte. I am also hoping for Bracing Stance 3 with built in Guard, but i dont think this will be a thing IS will release.

He has the stat distribution of an Armorer (not the BST) but no access to the Fighter skills to enhance his combat performance drasticly.

I was also thinking of Mystic boost for healing together with Noontime, but lets be real, without any form of Guard from a Skill or Ruse debuff he aint gonna survive long. His mixed bulk is a blessing and curse at the same time >.<

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Hilda said:

but lets be real, without any form of Guard from a Skill or Ruse debuff he aint gonna survive long.

It depends on the game mode. Guard is more useful in Arena modes due to the prevalence of Bold Fighter and Special Fighter, but is less useful in Aether Raids where Infantry Pulse is the most common means of having a Special activation occur (if you ignore Alm, but tanking Alm is more of an exception rather than the norm).

[Hilda]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It depends on the game mode. Guard is more useful in Arena modes due to the prevalence of Bold Fighter and Special Fighter, but is less useful in Aether Raids where Infantry Pulse is the most common means of having a Special activation occur (if you ignore Alm, but tanking Alm is more of an exception rather than the norm).

His higher HP pools helps for tanking Alm in general. But his HP is still too low to really consider it. And then there is the issue of killing Alm in the same combat, because he aint gonna survive a redanced Alm. Alm demands either a Raventome tank or a high bloated HP tank, which we dont have yet, or Ice Mirror which is exclusiv. Fjorm is the only unit that can tank Alm consistently with Shield Pulse and Ice Mirror and Breath buff or Skill. Brave Ike too, but if its a Hardy Bearing Alm uuuuuhhh.

[Anacybele]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I think that would be a pretty good feature to implement, letting your units switch Assets. It would also be a good idea to allow units the option to keep the Flaws. -HP is highly desirable for Player Phase and Counter-Vantage units to make reaching HP thresholds easier, and -Spd is great on slow tanks to ensure enemies double to activate a stronger Special. I think it would be great to let you switch to any Asset and Flaw that your unit has eaten via merges.

Yeah, it would be helpful, but maybe also over-generous as pointed out unless certain limits to it are put in.

[Jotari]

I know she's relatively new, so a refine won't be happening for a while yet, but I find Naga very underwhelming. I have two ideas to improve her.

*Give her range +1 on ally targeted C skills. She's meant to be a support unit, this makes her the support king. Her natural C skill that gives dragon slaying properties to any unit is cool, bit being adjacent only really hurts her. It's not practical to have your entire team crowding around her.

*At the start of turn 2, fully heal all allies. Based on how she heals everyone after Grima's spike attack in Awakening. This allows you to launch a blitz on turn 1 and then have everyone healthy and ready after the counter attack. It'd also be a good counter to Duma and super useful in Chain Challenge.

[SuperNova125]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I know she's relatively new, so a refine won't be happening for a while yet, but I find Naga very underwhelming. I have two ideas to improve her.

*Give her range +1 on ally targeted C skills. She's meant to be a support unit, this makes her the support king. Her natural C skill that gives dragon slaying properties to any unit is cool, bit being adjacent only really hurts her. It's not practical to have your entire team crowding around her.

*At the start of turn 2, fully heal all allies. Based on how she heals everyone after Grima's spike attack in Awakening. This allows you to launch a blitz on turn 1 and then have everyone healthy and ready after the counter attack. It'd also be a good counter to Duma and super useful in Chain Challenge.

I think her weapon is fine, it trades range for stats, which is something she needs considering her lowish BST, and thought it doesn't function that well in non dragon/dragon slaying team I don't think that's the problem. If she had a better BST then she would be better with +6 with 3 spaces but for Naga as of now it is more than fine (for me at least since I use her even outside of AR with dragons, and in AR with one dragon and Dragon slayers).

Her C skill needs an upgrade in my opinion but I would prefare if it was a more healing like the Herons or something instead of added range to her existing effect. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, SuperNova125 said:

I think her weapon is fine, it trades range for stats, which is something she needs considering her lowish BST, and thought it doesn't function that well in non dragon/dragon slaying team I don't think that's the problem. If she had a better BST then she would be better with +6 with 3 spaces but for Naga as of now it is more than fine (for me at least since I use her even outside of AR with dragons, and in AR with one dragon and Dragon slayers).

Her C skill needs an upgrade in my opinion but I would prefare if it was a more healing like the Herons or something instead of added range to her existing effect. 

Thing is the developers seem entirely incapable of upgrading or distributing new personal skills to existing units. For whatever unknowable reason, weapon refines are the only way to change old units.

[XRay]

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Thing is the developers seem entirely incapable of upgrading or distributing new personal skills to existing units. For whatever unknowable reason, weapon refines are the only way to change old units.

They upgraded a lot of higher cooldown Specials to lower cooldown back in the day, although that is probably an easier change than updating an effect.

[Humanoid]

One reason is that they want it to be a dew sink, and there's no present mechanism to add a cost to (and thus monetise) skill upgrades.