General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

They upgraded a lot of higher cooldown Specials to lower cooldown back in the day, although that is probably an easier change than updating an effect.

The difference in difficulty would be negligible. They already have a system to in put new skills as weapons are identical to skills as far as the game is concerned.

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

One reason is that they want it to be a dew sink, and there's no present mechanism to add a cost to (and thus monetise) skill upgrades.

Only for refines is there a cost. For characters getting new weapons, the weapons straight up appear in their skill list and only require SP to obtain. The exact same thing could be done for A, B, C, Special and Assist skills too.

[Humanoid]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

For characters getting new weapons, the weapons straight up appear in their skill list and only require SP to obtain.

Most of the time the unrefined new weapons are straight out inferior to refined generic weapons, which have a relatively trivial cost. And while it's possible to do that with other skills, the ability to refine passives, specials and assists would be a major new feature of which there is no sign yet. I'd support it, of course, but I don't see it happening until the next major x.0 update.

[Hilda]

Naga is fine, she doesnt need to run with a dragon or dragoneffectiv user to make use of her weapon. her C-Skill does that for her.
+9 to all stats as an in combat buff is bretty hefty.

The only reason she feels underwhelming is that ranged units are more effectiv in AR (or general), because BST doesnt factor into performance (points).

Of course the fact that Thrasir just got released with a green tome effective against Dragon users with the same BST doesnt help her much.

Everyone is running some form of Dragon effectivness in their Teams and thats reasonable, because IS buffed Dragons to the moon with refined and increase BST, so people are using countermeasures and IS is happy to release them. (Ruptured Sky, more killing Dragon weapons etc.)

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Naga is fine, she doesnt need to run with a dragon or dragoneffectiv user to make use of her weapon. her C-Skill does that for her.
+9 to all stats as an in combat buff is bretty hefty.

The only reason she feels underwhelming is that ranged units are more effectiv in AR (or general), because BST doesnt factor into performance (points).

Of course the fact that Thrasir just got released with a green tome effective against Dragon users with the same BST doesnt help her much.

Everyone is running some form of Dragon effectivness in their Teams and thats reasonable, because IS buffed Dragons to the moon with refined and increase BST, so people are using countermeasures and IS is happy to release them. (Ruptured Sky, more killing Dragon weapons etc.)

My issue with her C skill is that it's only for adjacent units. Meaning to make effect of it and combining it with her weapon means you need to crowd everyone around her. It just doesn't seem practical. If it had two range then it'd be far better (and if a refined weapons extended the reach of all ally buffs then we could get things like three range Tactics skills which would be really cool and would really make her stand out).

31 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Most of the time the unrefined new weapons are straight out inferior to refined generic weapons, which have a relatively trivial cost. And while it's possible to do that with other skills, the ability to refine passives, specials and assists would be a major new feature of which there is no sign yet. I'd support it, of course, but I don't see it happening until the next major x.0 update.

That's not much of a defense. I'd take mediocre to passable new skills rather what were currently getting (nothing). Just like I'm happy with the free weapons (which aren't always terrible).

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jotari

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

My issue with her C skill is that it's only for adjacent units. Meaning to make effect of it and combining it with her weapon means you need to crowd everyone around her. It just doesn't seem practical. If it had two range then it'd be far better (and if a refined weapons extended the reach of all ally buffs then we could get things like three range Tactics skills which would be really cool and would really make her stand out).

That's not much of a defense. I'd take mediocre to passable new skills rather what were currently getting (nothing). Just like I'm happy with the free weapons (which aren't always terrible).

The skill basicly shuts down any kind of Dragon on the enemy Team minus Garon and Sothis. Considering how prominent Dragons are (or rather were before Naga in AR) its a feasable cost for basicly effective Damage against dragon AND +9 to all stats for Naga.

Naga is fucking godlike in a flierball offense team with ward and goad fliers. and can gain essentially +25 to def and res (AND more with seals) as in combat buffs.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Hilda

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, XRay said:

They upgraded a lot of higher cooldown Specials to lower cooldown back in the day, although that is probably an easier change than updating an effect.

The difference between the two in terms of developer effort is trivial. The only difference is that refining a weapon costs more valuable resources for the player than learning a skill that just happened to appear in a unit's skill list, and certainly more resources than a skill that had its effect magically changed that didn't cost resources at all.

 

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

because IS buffed Dragons to the moon with refined and increase BST,

Dragons don't have any more base stats than any other weapon type.

[Diovani Bressan]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

My issue with her C skill is that it's only for adjacent units.

I don't see any problem with that. Her skills is good as it is. It's a Hone/Fortify type effect, and they have simple conditions to activate the effect.

If they decide to increase the range to "allies within 2 spaces", another requirement would be added, like "granted only if number of that ally's movement type on current team ≤ 2", "If unit's HP ≥ 50%", "only in odd/even turns" or "only melee/ranged allies".

Just "grants effective against dragon to allies within 2 spaces" without any other requirement would be... broken?(*) Unfair? I mean, Not only she would grant it easily to all allies but also would be easier to keep the Stats+9 ability on her without any difficulty.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Just "grants effective against dragon to allies within 2 spaces" without any other requirement would be... broken?(*) Unfair? I mean, Not only she would grant it easily to all allies but also would be easier to keep the Stats+9 ability on her without any difficulty.

Precisely. I don't feel like she's as broken as she should be. There are other units that are far more broken than she is. This is mother flipping Naga were talking about. She should be in the top tier. But she feels like she's barely average. And I don't think giving her two range on her C skill would even improve her that massively. As it is you can take the C skill off and just field her with other Dragon Slayers to get the same effect and that doesn't seem particularly broken as a team formation. It'd be nice if inheritable dragon slaying weapons were a thing. That's something I've been asking for a while. Then you could field her with three other fliers with ward/goad fliers (including a dancer). I think Summer Tiki is the only other flying unit with access to dragon slaying currently.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jotari

[Diovani Bressan]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Precisely. I don't feel like she's as broken as she should be. There are other units that are far more broken than she is. This is mother flipping Naga were talking about. She should be in the top tier. But she feels like she's barely average. And I don't think giving her two range on her C skill would even improve her that massively. As it is you can take the C skill off and just field her with other Dragon Slayers to get the same effect and that doesn't seem particularly broken as a team formation. It'd be nice if inheritable dragon slaying weapons were a thing. That's something I've been asking for a while. Then you could field her with three other fliers with ward/goad fliers (including a dancer). I think Summer Tiki is the only other flying unit with access to dragon slaying currently.

Maybe if her weapon had the same range as Thrasir's, that grants bonus based of the number of effective against dragons allies within 3 spaces... It would make her better.

I wanted Naga to have more HP, because 37 is pretty low,  mine being -HP doesn't help at all. Which is also weird, because in her trailer, she has 40 HP. They maybe used a +HP Naga in the video, but a +HP Naga has 41 HP... Maybe they used a +HP not Lv40 in the trailer, which is so weird...

To be fair, I want more Mythic Heroes with abilities made for AR. Duma is the only one with a skill that has an extra effect that only works in AR: Upheavel. He is the most unique Mythic Hero because of that. The others are just Legendary Heroes with a different name/title.

We could have more Mythic abilities that effect the map, like... nullify all structures's effects that are in the same column as the unit... lower all foe's structures level by 1 that are within 3 columns centered on unit on turn 1... grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+X to allies within 2 spaces during combat (X being the number of offensive/defensive structures. Destroyed structures are not counted)...

Not that I want a skill with these effects, like AR-O/D skills, but a personal skill that has a base effect + an extra effect during the Hero's season, like Upheavel, that deals damage on turn 1 and, in Anima seasons, destroy foe's offensive structures.

[Hilda]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dragons don't have any more base stats than any other weapon type.

Currently not, but i am sure once a Gen4 Dragon will get released they will have again higher base stats then other melees in their movement class. Like you know Gen 1 Infantry Dragons having higher BST then  Melee units, or like Fallen Corrin having more BST then the other Infantry melees released at the time. Or when Dragon Armorers got a boost to 180? yeah i am sure that rule will apply again.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

Currently not, but i am sure once a Gen4 Dragon will get released they will have again higher base stats then other melees in their movement class. Like you know Gen 1 Infantry Dragons having higher BST then  Melee units, or like Fallen Corrin having more BST then the other Infantry melees released at the time. Or when Dragon Armorers got a boost to 180? yeah i am sure that rule will apply again.

The BST increase is due to being under a trainee BST classification, not because dragons have higher BST. Surtr is not a dragon and he has trainee BST. F!Corrin and A!Tiki are Gen I dragons and have no BST increase.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Currently not, but i am sure once a Gen4 Dragon will get released they will have again higher base stats then other melees in their movement class. Like you know Gen 1 Infantry Dragons having higher BST then  Melee units, or like Fallen Corrin having more BST then the other Infantry melees released at the time. Or when Dragon Armorers got a boost to 180? yeah i am sure that rule will apply again.

Im actually not sure how many dragons we'll see in the future. We've kind of run out of canon examples. Or, at least, run very far down the list. Two versions of Medeus, definitely the most needed, then there's the random chapter bosses of Shadow Dragon that are forgetable. Aine and the Fire Dragon who aren't really characters at all. Yahn and Morva, who are don't top many lists if best characters, but now stand a chance due to just being dragons. About five or six dragon laguz, Anankos and Rhea, and that's sort of it. We could see a dozen more Corrins or Tikis as seasonal units and legendaries, but actual new dragons available we have about a dozen. If we want to get creative we could make a Julius alt that can transform and a Gunther alt that summons Anankos (mounted dragon!). Maybe Gen 4 is good for it's dragons, but gen five, if we last that long, might only have dragons that are exclusively alts if existing characters.

[Baldrick]

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

but gen five, if we last that long, might only have dragons that are exclusively alts if existing characters.

If the Fallen 2: The Streets banner is any indication, that’s still a fairly deep well to draw from.

I expect more trainees to be added, since it’s one way to induce spending, and there aren’t many non-dragons left that qualify (Ross, Ewan, Mozu). And to my knowledge, every alt with a trainee bonus has been a dragon.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If the Fallen 2: The Streets banner is any indication, that’s still a fairly deep well to draw from.

I don't know what you mean by this. The banner with crazy Berkut and brainwashed Delthea? That has a Tiki alt, and like I said they could give us a dozen more Tikis and Corrins if they wanted to. Though I think they might be reaching their good will on Tiki alt soon. She's only one behind Camilla. Then again she's a bit more palatable for having a younger and older self. I wouldnt mind a Naga-Tiki form inspired by future past. Ice Dragon also thinks the first child Tikis we got were fire dragon due to their weapon, which I don't believe is the case (Flame Tongue is just the breath equivalent of Silver Sword), but it does give rise to the idea of Fire Dragon Tiki. And once we go there, we could have Ice Dragon Tiki, Wyvern Tiki, Mage Dragon Tiki. It'd be too much Tiki for a lot of people, but it would show off an aspect of Archanea that there are no potential characters for (although the Morzas, the dragon that ate Marth's mother could get in, he gets really little focus the story, but Mage Dragons are unique enough that I personally wouldn't be upset).

[Baldrick]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't know what you mean by this. The banner with crazy Berkut and brainwashed Delthea? That has a Tiki alt, and like I said they could give us a dozen more Tikis and Corrins if they wanted to. Though I think they might be reaching their good will on Tiki alt soon. She's only one behind Camilla.

Tiki and Corrin, colour sharing to boot. Even if Tiki and Corrin get backlash, there's still Fae, Myrrh, Nowi, Nah, Idunn and Sothis alts as possibilities. If all those overstay their welcome, Corrin's case of "alts get trainee bonus" could also extend to Naga, Grima, Kana and Nagi.

[Kaden]

At this point, I wonder if an effect giving WTA would be too much and I don't mean reversing the WTA, but straight-up, for example, a red gaining WTA against blues meaning they would have WTA against blues and greens and be neutral to colorless and reds.

I guess to examine the impact of this, how about Barst, Draug, Mathilda, and Subaki being the examples? For Subaki, I guess to look at a personal T-Adept weapon where gaining WTA against their WTD was the unique effect. I guess you could throw in Hector and Sheena for probably QR5 as the base effect and Killer effect respectively and gaining WTA against reds.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Kaden

[Hilda]

30 minutes ago, Kaden said:

At this point, I wonder if an effect giving WTA would be too much and I don't mean reversing the WTA, but straight-up, for example, a red gaining WTA against blues meaning they would have WTA against blues and greens and be neutral to colorless and reds.

I guess to examine the impact of this, how about Barst, Draug, Mathilda, and Subaki being the examples? For Subaki, I guess to look at a personal T-Adept weapon where gaining WTA against their WTD was the unique effect. I guess you could throw in Hector and Sheena for probably QR5 as the base effect and Killer effect respectively and gaining WTA against reds.

We almost have this but not entirely and it would be broken. Cancel Affinity + Trilemma is on some specific units that dont need their B skill very busted (Hrid). Its not a WTA but it nullifies the Attack gain to 0%. Weapon Triangle or Triangle Adept is a very strong effect. +20% Atk and -20% is nothing to scoff at.

[Kaden]

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

We almost have this but not entirely and it would be broken. Cancel Affinity + Trilemma is on some specific units that dont need their B skill very busted (Hrid). Its not a WTA but it nullifies the Attack gain to 0%. Weapon Triangle or Triangle Adept is a very strong effect. +20% Atk and -20% is nothing to scoff at.

I know, but I am wondering if we are at a point where something like this would not be too crazy. And on certain units, it might not be much like Subaki if he does not keep the T-Adept effect would be like having a blue and red unit at the same time, but with 25 base neutral attack and if he runs T-Adept as his A passive, then he can't run something else. Or someone like Barst where having WTA over reds help, but he would still be weak to mages or magic damage of any color with his low resistance.

Speaking of B passives, I wonder if legendary Leif as a Master Knight could have this as his B passive as a reference to weapon ranks which could be said as Leif being a master of combat and a master or beyond the weapon triangle. This would mean he'd have to have this passive and have his B passive occupied to have WTA over whatever, probably blue, WTD. Still leaves his A passive open meaning he could run DC, a Solo, or whatever and if it were a A passive instead, then B passive would be open for Desperation, Lull, Vantage, whatever.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Kaden

[Hilda]

4 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I know, but I am wondering if we are at a point where something like this would not be too crazy. And on certain units, it might not be much like Subaki if he does not keep the T-Adept effect would be like having a blue and red unit at the same time, but with 25 base neutral attack and if he runs T-Adept as his A passive, then he can't run something else. Or someone like Barst where having WTA over reds help, but he would still be weak to mages or magic damage of any color with his low resistance.

Speaking of B passives, I wonder if legendary Leif as a Master Knight could have this as his B passive as a reference to weapon ranks which could be said as Leif being a master of combat and a master or beyond the weapon triangle. This would mean he'd have to have this passive and have his B passive occupied to have WTA over whatever, probably blue, WTD. Still leaves his A passive open meaning he could run DC, a Solo, or whatever and if it were a A passive instead, then B passive would be open for Desperation, Lull, Vantage, whatever.

as an inheritable skill it woudl be beyond broken. Just imagine someone like Surtr with a skill like this. We are not at that point yet, and never will be. Someone like Subaki could run this skill on the A-Slot and then run Lance Breaker skill on the B-Slot. Suddenly he is advantagous against all 3 weapons. Give him additionally Saphire Lance and it becomes for greens and reds almost impossible to kill him without a special activation, leaving only Blue.

[Kaden]

8 hours ago, Hilda said:

as an inheritable skill it woudl be beyond broken. Just imagine someone like Surtr with a skill like this. We are not at that point yet, and never will be. Someone like Subaki could run this skill on the A-Slot and then run Lance Breaker skill on the B-Slot. Suddenly he is advantagous against all 3 weapons. Give him additionally Saphire Lance and it becomes for greens and reds almost impossible to kill him without a special activation, leaving only Blue.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I meant that the skill would have been legendary Leif's personal skill. I forgot to mention it, but that would have opened up another can of worms considering if he ends up with Bragi Sword which likely would have effective damage against armor and maybe a Miracle effect similar to Hel's Scythe and refined Tyrfing.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Kaden

[BoaFerox]

I think it'd be nice if they could give Rapier to some of the sword lords that are associated with it, like Eirika, Marth and Roy. None of them can match Phina's attack, and Phina is still a dancer, so it's not like she would lose her niche and not be worth pulling for anymore. It'd be a nice reference to the main series, and would give these units some new possible roles to fill, especially for those who's personal weapon refines are starting to show some age.

They haven't done those 150 dew new weapon refines in some time though, so I wonder if they've stopped. At least they should give Eirika the Storm Sieglinde. It might not be that good on her, but it bothers me that Ephraim has the Flame Siegmund while Eirika doesn't have the weapon of her legendary version.

[Diovani Bressan]

5 hours ago, BoaFerox said:

I think it'd be nice if they could give Rapier to some of the sword lords that are associated with it, like Eirika, Marth and Roy. None of them can match Phina's attack, and Phina is still a dancer, so it's not like she would lose her niche and not be worth pulling for anymore. It'd be a nice reference to the main series, and would give these units some new possible roles to fill, especially for those who's personal weapon refines are starting to show some age.

They haven't done those 150 dew new weapon refines in some time though, so I wonder if they've stopped. At least they should give Eirika the Storm Sieglinde. It might not be that good on her, but it bothers me that Ephraim has the Flame Siegmund while Eirika doesn't have the weapon of her legendary version.

Yeah, I am kinda surprised that these units didn't receive their legendary weapons. I was sure that Marth would receive Exalted Falchion. Well, in Ephraim's case, his Siegmund is not that good, so we kinda needed the weapon.  Marth, Eirika, Roy, Eliwood, Brave Lyn, and Ephraim again are candidates that could receive weapon evolutions. Since inheritable dragon stones can be inherit by any dragon color, Tiki could also receive Divine Mist.

But I am not sure about giving Rapier to others units as a "Weapon Evolution" thing, since it's not the case. I know that they use Rapier in their games, but Falchion/Sieglinde evolving into Rapier? Not sure. And no other hero received a weapon from other hero without being in the weapon evolution thing. It would be great, not gonna lie... but I don't see it happening. IntSys releasing new units that also have Rapier? Yeah, it's possible.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Kaden]

8 hours ago, BoaFerox said:

I think it'd be nice if they could give Rapier to some of the sword lords that are associated with it, like Eirika, Marth and Roy. None of them can match Phina's attack, and Phina is still a dancer, so it's not like she would lose her niche and not be worth pulling for anymore. It'd be a nice reference to the main series, and would give these units some new possible roles to fill, especially for those who's personal weapon refines are starting to show some age.

Chrom, Eliwood, and Lucina also come with Rapier in their home games. Starting with Lucina, she would basically be a worse Phina in every way except for having access to Falchion for another personal weapon and having 3 more HP. Lucina's 43 HP, 34 Atk, 36 Spd, 25 Def, and 19 Res to Phina's 40 HP, 35 Atk, 37 Spd, 26 Def, and 23 Res results in +3 HP, -1 Atk, -1 Spd, -1 Def, and -4 Res for Lucina. Lucina's not new heroes banners anymore, so she would be harder to come by than Phina.

Eliwood on the other hand would not interfere with Phina's niche, instead, he'd carve out his own niche if he had Rapier. While his offenses aren't great at 31 Atk and 30 Spd, he'd be the only sword cavalry who can deal effective damage to armor and cavalry and the only sword cavalry with a personal weapon of either effective damage. Eliwood also has good resistance, so he could even out his lower attack with Def Ploy.

Chrom would be like +Atk Phina, but if -Spd resulted in her losing 12 Spd. That might not matter because of how effective damage scales and Chrom being a 3* to 4* summonable unit who you could hunt for +Atk more easily than +Atk Phina. =Atk Chrom has 53 Atk with a personal sword and if it's Rapier, then it becomes 79 Atk against armors with Svalinn Shield or cavalry without Grani's Shield. +Atk bumps him up to 56 Atk and 84 Atk against armors and cavalry. Death Blow 3 would give him 62 Atk on initiation which becomes 93 Atk against armors and cavalry. +Atk, +10 Chrom with Death Blow 3 would have 66 Atk on initiation which becomes 99 Atk against armors and cavalry. With WTD and up to that point, he'd still have 79 Atk against blue armors and cavalry. Distant Counter, Rapier's Vantage 3, and whatever B passive he wants would probably make Chrom be really stupid against armors and cavalry. Chrom's Res is crap, but his HP is high. An unmerged =HP and =Res Chrom has 64 total and 41x2 magical bulk. Let's use a +Atk, unmerged CYL Veronica who has 49 Atk. She needs to make up 15 Atk which if she fails to get for whatever reason means Chrom with DC and Null C-Disrupt would probably one-shot her on counter, especially with Rapier. She easily drops him into Vantage range which at this point, probably should just have Chrom run Brazen Atk/Y as his seal.

3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Well, in Ephraim's case, his Siegmund is not that good, so we kinda needed the weapon.

I think it's more of Siegmund suffered from being an early weapon update or the developers just wanted it to be this way when something else would have been better like Daybreak Lance, Eternal Tome, and Tyrfing's Atk/Def Bond unique refinement are things. Hone Atk 3 was good at the time and so was the unique refinement allowing him to make a follow-up attack if his HP >= 90%, but for the unique refinement, we now have other guaranteed follow-up effects on weapons that are more flexible like for HP checks, Dimitri's Noble Lance works based on his and his opponent's HP where if both are at full health or not at full health, then he can make a follow-up attack and Tibarn's Hawk King Claw requires him to initiate and his foe's HP to be full for him to make a follow-up attack. Then you have Glitnir requiring Gustav to initiate on a foe that can counter back, the penalty checks like Hrid's Gjoll and Yune's Chaos Manifest, the ally/foe count checks like Flame Siegmund and Lif's Sokkvabekkr, and QR5 on unique refined Binding Blade, unique refined Bow of Devotion, and Maltet.

The other thing is the effect overlaps as both Siegmund and Flame Siegmund have guaranteed follow-up effects where Siegmund's might be considered harsher for some compared to Flame Siegmund. Compare this to Durandal where at first, regular Durandal wasn't that great compared to Blazing Durandal, but after the weapon updates for both, both still do different things as player phase weapons where Durandal's Death Blow 3 and Swift Sparrow 2 provide Eliwood as much damage as he needs while Blazing Durandal provides Eliwood and CYL Roy Steady Impact and changes Heavy Blade 3 to a hybrid of Bold and Special Fighter where they still get +1 special cooldown charge, but only if they initiate instead of needing to pass an attack check and in turn also inflict -1 special cooldown charge on their foes. And then there's Ardent Durandal being a fantastic support weapon.

[Xenomata]

New weapons coming for Athena, Gordin, Subaki, and Female Kana!

~Athena's default weapon is the Wo Dao (Special Dmg +10).
~Gordin's is the Brave Bow (Attacks twice when initiating, Spd -5)
~Subaki's is the Sapphire Lance (Triangle Adept 3)
~FemKana's is the Water Breath (Def/Res +4 when foe initiate, Range Adaptive Damage)

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

New weapons coming for Athena, Gordin, Subaki, and Female Kana!

 ~Athena's default weapon is the Wo Dao (Special Dmg +10).
~Gordin's is the Brave Bow (Attacks twice when initiating, Spd -5)
~Subaki's is the Sapphire Lance (Triangle Adept 3)
~FemKana's is the Water Breath (Def/Res +4 when foe initiate, Range Adaptive Damage)

Hold up! F!Kana is Gen II I think. We are doing Gen II units now?