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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


Corrobin
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Rebecca's bow: Base effect is generic, special refine probably works very well with Bonus Doubler. But otherwise I don't think it will be as useful, hopefully the update art will fix her bow string problem.

Leif's Light brand: Not that great of a special refine. But I heard it's a theme for the Quan/Ethlyn family to have speed skills that don't boost their attack so... on theme I guess?

Cordelia's lance: By far the best: A better brave lance at base, and the special refine is useful if you want to quadruple similar to Est's or Catria's weapon without needing another flier. But if the refine isn't that good, you can always refine it for attack or speed (for more consistency).

Henry's Corvus tome: Raven tome as we expected. Special refine was to be expected for a low attack unit similar to Selena's. Nice reference to a curse similar to Tharja's but I don't think it will make that much of a difference except for those that already like Henry.

Edited by Nym
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Leif: Alright... I suppose? He could probably get off some pretty good Bonfire + Special Spiral hits now that his Def is being heightened a little more, but... I think I'd have prefered a Wo Dao effect.

Henry: At +1 merge and +Res Asset, Henry with Corvus Tome still only has 37 Atk... so he needs to run a +Atk Asset just to make sure he does decent damage, and he STILL would be able to get off the refine effect of Corvus Tome. Man... this new weapon of his just makes his painfully low Atk stat even more obvious...

Rebecca: Nothing special whatsoever. Hey, remember when Niles got a new weapon and he got the Lightning Weapon effect on his base new weapon? Rebecca is barely any better than him, why does she only get one base effect?
Not much to say here, I really didn't expect her to get anything that'd truly fix her problems, and this kinda just makes her... well, not bad, but it isn't anything compared to the buff that Arthur got...

Cordelia: basically a 14 might +2 spd Brave Lance? Cool, it isn't the most exciting refine but it certainly gives the original OP flier a little more to work with now that her role has been given... a shitton of represenatives.

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I don't understand why a HP requirement for Cordelia's Refinement... It doesn't work with Desperation... well, Desperation is below 75%, and the Atk/Spd+4 is above 70%... You guys have the 5% to make it work.

Edited by Diovani Bressan
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Wow...as someone who +10'ed Rebecca, and has been waiting for her refine for AGES, this is a massive disappointment. She's honestly better with the Guard Bow+ I already gave her. I wasn't expecting something broken or anything like that, but this...this is lame.

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So after all's said and done, is Clair the superior Galeforcer to Cordelia? Hmm. Not sure what I'm looking to get out of my lance flier but I'm not sure blue-Cherche is it.

Leif should just toss the Light Brand in the bin and pick up a Meisterbogen.

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21 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I mean

It's not the WORST bunch of refines ever

Better than Titania and Seth getting stuck with gem weapons and tactic refines at least

Takumi: You were saying?

7 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I don't understand why a HP requirement for Cordelia's Refinement... It doesn't work with Desperation... well, Desperation is below 75%, and the Atk/Spd+4 is above 70%... You guys have the 5% to make it work.

It's probably a reference to her being perfect, not a gameplay decision. At least that's what I think, similar to Henry and Tharja's weapon that inflicts a "curse".

 

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1 minute ago, Nym said:

It's probably a reference to her being perfect, not a gameplay decision. At least that's what I think, similar to Henry and Tharja's weapon that inflicts a "curse".

Weird that her refinement also works in enemy phase.

Maybe IntSys wanted to give her a lance version of Amiti, but also a weaker version because she is a 3-4* unit while Elincia is a 5* unit.

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Hmm...not sure what I think of Cordelia's Lance yet. Thought it looked good for a moment until I noticed it had a weird reverse brazen-like effect on it. It's probably still good in some way but I'm too accustomed to having Cordelia using Slaying Lance and pulling off Galeforce strats to change weapons at the moment. At least I can keep saving dew for when Ivaldi and Gleipnir get refines.

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I can't say I'm too happy about Cordy's refine, but at least she's not forced to run that clunky refine and can just go with +Spd to go full quad mode. I'll probably keep her Slaying build because I haven't been too keen on Brave weapons outside of Altina and a 4 CD Galeforce + Desperation combo is too nice to give up although Catria is better at this

As for the others... 

Leif's is soooooo meh. Slaying is cool but he gets nothing else. 

Henry's the winner by far. That said, despite the refine I still think his poor stats hold him back too much to work outside of 1 time niches. 

Rebecca's the most plain but is also the one that can get more mileage. After some comparisons she seems to beat Norne in Atk/Spd/Res while losing heavily in Hp/Def (and the Spd/Res difference is like +2) so Rebecca is better suited for PP while Norne is the better tank.

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13 minutes ago, Nym said:

Takumi: You were saying?

To be fair, wasn't Takumi one of the earliest units to get a refine? His and Anna's refines are pretty bad too, but I'd chalk up Takumi's bad refine to - again - developers not knowing WTF they wanted to do in the beginning.

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Disappointing batch of *5's. I already kind of wanted to build a Cordelia. I'm pretty much the same though, maybe a little less interested. Don't get me wrong, the effect is good. But this basically just makes her blue slightly weaker Elincia. Not a bad thing, just... eh. Henry's is decent but only if you invest big time into him. Leif's is underwhelming, definitely not something you'd want to grab unless you really like him and investing in him is hard since he's *5 locked.

Rebecca is the biggest loser of the group though. That hurts a lot. Niles got a Slaying Effect, True Damage and a Flashing Blade effect while Rebecca only gets +4 to all stats with a hone despite being just as weak if not weaker as a unit. Pretty pitiful. With Bonus Doubler she could be a decent archer but that means she needs premium A fodder to be as good as other units  without it and that's without any specific niche or specialization that sets her apart. Massively disappointing.

I had always considered potentially building and +10'ing a Rebecca due to nostalgia. Definitely won't be doing that now. I can savely spend Dew on someone.... anyone else.

 

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My Leif was -spd so his refine will allow him to start doubling units but it's a shame he gets def instead of atk. His slaying effect is nice as it synergies well with S drink which allows him to get a 2 CD galeforce with time pulse. Not that I'm going to sacrifice a copy of Sothis to Leif. 

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22 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

To be fair, wasn't Takumi one of the earliest units to get a refine? His and Anna's refines are pretty bad too, but I'd chalk up Takumi's bad refine to - again - developers not knowing WTF they wanted to do in the beginning.

True.

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Henry: Best boi easily takes the win here. Guard and Atk/Res reduction that he almost always gets? Sign me up!

Cordelia: Kinda weak tbh, but it works.

Rebecca: Boring, but effective.

Lief: Good god why does IS seemingly hate the Leonster line? I mean, I'll take more special cooldown for easy Bignis, but jeez.

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Cordelia's was the only one in the batch I was really looking forward to and they make it a shitty version of Elincia's weapon. They really fucked up when the Special refine is worse than a generic +stat refine. Who thought this was what Cordelia needed? This is Tier 3 Push skills level of bad.

Guess I'll just keep using Firesweep.

Edited by NekoKnight
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Everyone's complaining about Cordelia, but... she was already the strongest lance flier in the game? Sure, I would have loved to make her even more ridiculous, but she didn't actually need a legendary weapon at all.

I like Henry making his shitty Atk work for him.

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7 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

Everyone's complaining about Cordelia, but... she was already the strongest lance flier in the game? Sure, I would have loved to make her even more ridiculous, but she didn't actually need a legendary weapon at all.

I think a refine should make people more excited to use a unit. Cordelia being a good gen 1 units doesn't mean her refine should be underwhelming, especially since there are already prf Brave weapons that synergize better  with builds. Brave Lyn was the best CYL unit but her refine was the worst of that batch and she already runs more interesting sets with Brave or Firesweep.

If Lyn or Cordelia "don't need" refines then why did they bother making them?

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4 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think a refine should make people more excited to use a unit. Cordelia being a good gen 1 units doesn't mean her refine should be underwhelming, especially since there are already prf Brave weapons that synergize better  with builds. Brave Lyn was the best CYL unit but her refine was the worst of that batch and she already runs more interesting sets with Brave or Firesweep.

If Lyn or Cordelia "don't need" refines then why did they bother making them?

...because they're idiots?

I run Escape Route on Cordelia, so I'm going for the Speed+ refine. She's going to be ridiculous regardless of her unique effect.

Personally, I was under the impression that new legendary weapons and the Weapon Refinery were for balancing weak units, not making the strong ones stronger. I guess I should have learned after Nino...

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They seriously gave Cordelia a worse version of Amiti.

  • Cordelia's Lance: "10 Mt. Inflicts Spd-2. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice. [Unique] At start of combat, if unit's HP >= 70%, grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat."
  • Elincia's Amiti: "11 Mt. Inflicts Spd-2. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice. [Unique] If unit initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd+4."

Considering Cordelia's one point higher base attack, they end up doing the same damage as both, with neutral attack, will have 49 Atk. The difference is that Elincia simply needs to initiate and not be dead whereas Cordelia needs to have >= 70% HP, but will have Atk/Spd+4 on both phases. Also, Cordelia will have one less speed than Elincia since Cordelia has 35 base neutral speed to Elincia's 36. Brave weapons are usually player phase unless they have the ability to Brave on enemy phase as well like that of the Meister weapons or Altina's Ragnell-Alondite or Keaton's Wolfskin Fang. So, Elincia's Amiti being pure player phase is just fine for a personal Brave Sword that doesn't have the ability to Brave on enemy phase. Similarly, being at >= 70% HP is fine for slow or very frail Brave units who do not want to take damage, but for Brazen, for Brash Assault, Desperation builds, for and fast Brave units who want to be in Desperation range, they want to be at a certain HP threshold that would likely be <= 70% HP which is outside of Cordelia's Lance's unique refinement threshold. Additionally, Cordelia's relatively fast, so she can run a fast Brave build. That said, against units who can inflict a lot of splash damage, in Aether Raids with Bolt Towers and Bolt Traps, or against someone like Hector & Lilina where in the player's hands they can use their Duo Skill to inflict 20 damage if she's in their range, or against multiple Dumas with Upheaval, Cordelia could easily be knocked out of her unique refinement's HP threshold. Elincia on the other hand simply doesn't care when it's her turn. Sure, Cordelia could maybe have good attack to maybe Counter, Vantage, but the health condition doesn't really mesh well with Vantage much less Brazen or Desperation.

The only reason I can think of other than their differences in rarity, so Cordelia being easier to merge and likely a +10 unit for many people already, for Cordelia's Lance having one less Mt than Amiti is that Cordelia's neutral attack is higher than Elincia's by one. If that were the case, then Luke should have had a 12 Mt personal Brave Sword to offset him having one less base neutral attack than Meisterhardt. But that still is stupid because Cordelia, a lance flier, does not compete with Elincia, a sword flier. Even with the consideration of rarity, Klein and Gordin ended up with personal Brave Bows and didn't get gimped with their bow's Mt because other 5* Brave Bow or Brave ranged units exist.

A lance version of Amiti was the generic thing they could have done for Cordelia, but they decided to do worse. Maybe it would be too crazy, but Golden Naginata's unique refinement effect: "At the start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ 70%, deals +7 damage", would have at least been something different than an effect that is not as practical as Swift Sparrow 2. The crazy idea that popped into my head for Cordelia was her ending up with Steady Impact as a unique refinement for her non-Brave personal lance. Not sure why, but hey, preventing follow-up attacks and patching up her low defense could be interesting. The base effect could be anything really. Maybe something like:

  • "16 Mt. Unit can move to a space adjacent to a flying ally within 2 spaces. [Unique] If unit initiates combat, grants Spd+7 and Def+10 during combat and foe cannot make a follow-up attack."

If you want the base effect to be "underwhelming".

In the end, Cordelia's Lance is a personal Brave Lance and that's good. Still, the one less Mt feels insulting and it's not going to be surprising if a new lance flier or blue melee flier for that matter is introduced with a Brave weapon that has 11 Mt and the same or higher attack/overall offenses than Cordelia.

Leif's Light Brand is the first weapon to gain a Killer effect for its unique refinement? I know that Roy's Binding Blade was the first weapon to gain effective damage when refined and CYL Lucina's Geirskogul was the first lance to gain effective damage when refined. I think the best part about with its unique refinement is that Light Brand becomes a personal Killing Edge. Killer effect is powerful and that's all there is to it. Overall, unique refined Light Brand ends up having a bunch of effects and that's kind of it with the Killer effect being the stand out thing.

  • Light Brand: "16 Mt. Grants Def+3. If foe's Def ≥ foe's Res+5, deals +7 damage. [Unique] Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, grants Spd/Def+4 to unit during combat."

As noted before, Leif continues to have the Spd/Def thing he shares with Quan and Ethlyn. It's just the condition effect is in a weird spot. Regal Blade debuted the effect and granted Lloyd Atk/Spd+2, then mage knight Erika and L'Arachel ended up with a slightly stronger version granting them Atk/Spd+3, Lloyd caught up to that with in a weapon update putting Regal Blade on par with Gleipnir and Ivaldi. Well, then Tibarn's Hawk King Claw added in requiring he initiates to give him a guaranteed follow-up and summer Lyn had the same condition as Tibarn's Hawk King Claw, but hers granted Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4. Dimitri's Noble Lance had a similar effect that checked if both he and his foe are at full health or not and granted him a guaranteed follow-up. Now we're up to Perceval who returns to only having the check be his foe's HP = 100%, but his Prized Lance grants him Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4. So, Prized Lance only has a Killer effect as its other effect while unique refined Light Brand has four effects, but the overall effect and how its continues to get stronger is just weird to me. I guess a weird comparison would be if the Wo Dao effect increased by one damage ever now and again or granted a different effect like it healed the user for 5 HP when they activate a special.

Back to Leif, with neutral Leif with his default kit and if he meets all the conditions will have 48 Spd and 41 Def in combat when he initiates. Leif has 38 base neutral speed and gains +4 from the unique refinement and +4 from Steady Blow and Leif has 30 base neutral defense and has +3 from Light Brand, gains +4 from the unique refinement, and +4 from Steady Blow. With the Steady Posture 2 seal, he would have 48 Spd and 41 Def on both phases. With the Killer effect from the unique refinement and with S Drink, Leif can have a 1 cooldown Bonfire or 2 cooldown Ignis. With Time's Pulse, then he'd have a charged Bonfire and a 1 cooldown Ignis. Leif's HP isn't that high, so Infantry Pulse can give him charged Bonfire or Ignis. With 41 Def in combat, he will get 20 damage from Bonfire and 32 from Ignis. So, I guess he can be melee infantry nuke for what that's worth.

Steady Impact when it is introduced would be something Leif would definitely like as it would be an additional Spd+3 and Def+6 for 51 Spd and 47 Def in combat when he initiates and when his foe's HP is full and prevent his foe's follow-up attack. Alternatively, Swift Impact could help to give him the same speed boost, but add Res+10 which could be helpful against dragons and Close Counter mages.

So, to sum it up, Light Brand might not be that great, but it works.

Henry's Corvus Tome being a personal -raven tome with a low attack check to give him more bulk and damage through inflicting Atk/Res-6 and Guard is nice.

  • Corvus Tome: "14 Mt. Grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes,and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat. [Unique] At start of combat, if foe's Atk >= unit's Atk+3, inflicts Atk/Res-6 on foe during combat and Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

It's another one of the this would work well with a Lull if we had more of them and easier access to them. Lull Atk/Res doesn't exist yet, but paired with Corvus's Tome's unique refinement and if he passes the attack check, Henry would be able to inflict Atk/Res-9, negate his foe's Atk/Res buffs, and inflict Guard on them. That would give Henry an effective 46 Atk, 41 Def, and 34 Res in combat. The attack part's not that great, but the bulk is nice. I guess for a comparison, Sophia with Eternal Tome has 47 Atk and the Bracing Stance 2 unique refinement gives her 32 Def and 33 Res on enemy phase. So, she doesn't need to pass an attack check and Lull Atk/Res 3 to have 47 Atk, but she doesn't have Guard on either phase and her bulk is mainly enemy phase for what that's worth. Fortress Def/Res would cost him two points of attack, but bump him up to 47 Def and 40 Res. Bracing/Sturdy/Mirror Stance 3 probably would be better, but Bracing Stance 3 and Sturdy Stance 3 have not been introduced yet. Probably Close Counter too. Fortress Def and T-Adept would be budget options.

Henry's in a better spot, but I'm curious to where he stands in comparison to Raigh and Sophia where Sophia was briefly noted above. Raigh has effective damage against cavalry and Dull Ranged 3 as the base effects of his tome and an -owl effect for the unique refinement allowing him to gain stats all around, but probably not as much bulk as Henry. With Null C-Disrupt, Raigh can deal with disruptive ranged units, particularly cavalry like CYL Veronica. But he does not have WTA against colorless units like Henry and Sophia and like Sophia, he doesn't have Guard or debuff his foe; Raigh only negates buffs from ranged units.

Rebecca's Bow being a personal Killer Bow is sure. Killer effect is good. The unique refinement being a one point stronger version of Arthur's Axe's base effect is sure, I guess.

  • Rebecca's Bow: "14 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). Effective against flying foes. [Unique] If bonus is granted by a skill like Rally or Hone is active on unit, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat."

I wished that they played with Rebecca's background as hunter, so at least something like effective damage against beasts or a bow centered around dealing with beasts. My ideas where this: https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/81253-general-weapon-refinery-discussionspeculationcreation-thread/&do=findComment&comment=5477368.

So, it's not as loaded as Niles's Bow, but one thing to consider is that in return for seven resistance, Rebecca has five more attack giving her an average-ish 29 base neutral attack to Niles's low 25 base neutral attack. +Atk Niles matches Rebecca neutral base attack stat, but Rebecca can choose between +Atk or +Spd for higher overall offenses. That is to say, she is not as reliant on specials or her foe's Def to be greater than their Res+5 to deal damage like Niles. Although she needs a field buff and it's in combat, she can match Niles's neutral resistance while exceeding him in overall offenses and defense. One Fortify Res 3 gives Rebecca Res+4 bumping up her 27 neutral resistance to 31 and with the unique refinement, she'd have 35 Res in combat along with 47 Atk, 38 Spd, and 25 Def. It's something different she does compared to Niles targeting foes with lopsided defenses and being able to churn out Iceberg or Glacies with Time's Pulse.

  • Niles's Bow: "14 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). Effective against flying foes. If foe's Def >= foe's Res+5, deals +7 damage. If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, grants Special cooldown charge +1 per unit's attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

I guess it's like Odin's Grimoire having a personal -blade tome with a good support through its Atk/Spd Link 3 unique refinement and Mae's Book of Orchids having a Death Blow 3 tome and sharing the same unique refinement as Odin's Grimoire. That is to say, Mae has an actual, high attack stat and good resistance in return for low defense and HP while Odin's attack is low, but he has good mixed bulk. Book of Orchids does for some people run into the issue of not being as good as Lilina's Forblaze and Mae's speed being "wasted" if like Lilina, her tome is all about attack stacking. Similarly, why Nino and Tharja ended up with personal -blade tomes that have a unique refinement when they have actual attack stats in comparison to Odin.

I guess the one issue with Rebecca now is the existence of Tanya and Norne who are at least both in the 4* summoning pool. Granted, neither of them have personal bows unlike Rebecca who recently gained one and can't really get the same amount of in combat stats as Rebecca can now. Tanya is essentially a gen 3 version of Rebecca where she has +4 HP, +1 Atk, +3 Spd, +4 Def, and +1 Res over Rebecca. Norne's raw amount of stats as a gen 4 physical ranged infantry does make her like a gen 4 version of Rebecca, but Norne leans more towards physical defense while incidentally sharing the same base neutral resistance as Rebecca. Norne has +5 HP, +3 Atk, +2 Spd, and +10 Def over Rebecca. Norne comes with Guard Bow, so by default she's more of an enemy phase unit which works well with her mixed bulk. I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this, so I'm just going to end it.

Rebecca's Bow works. I guess that's the entire gist of the weapon update for me: they work.

Edited by Kaden
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So at 5* +10 merge, +Atk asset, S rank Summoner Support, and no Atk increasing Sacred Seals, Henry sits at... 46 Attack, plus a technical 6 from Corvus Tome nerfing the enemies Resistance.

...well then. I think the enemies who won't set off Corvus Tome include... Wrys, a low Atk invested Felicia, Odin, Kliff and other units who actively try to keep lower Atk than the foe like Henry... so nobody important. Not to mention Corvus Tome essentially replicates an Owltome boost minus the Spd boost which doesn't affect Henry any (-6 foe Atk is +6 Def and Res, -6 foe Res is +6 Atk) while also keeping his Colorless Advantage intact.

Edited by Xenomata
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Rebecca

Eh. It's basically asking to be run on a Bonus Doubler set, but it's otherwise not terribly impressive since bows have to compete with Alm and Leaf. But it's still a pretty big upgrade to anything else she could otherwise be running other than Firesweep Bow or Guard Bow.

I also can't see it being too useful in Aether Raids due to Rebecca's relatively low HP making her more vulnerable to Panic.

Cordelia

Eh. The base effect is pretty good. I'll give it that much. However, I don't really see it helping much for Galeforce builds (outside of Ostia's Pulse or Velouria setups) since her high Atk with her unique refine is more likely to just kill the opponent before you can charge up Galeforce.

The HP restriction on the unique refine is also somewhat obnoxious since it means you can't really run Desperation and have both active at the same time. For a Desperation build, you'd want to go with the Spd refine instead. On the other hand, you can also just run this in the same way you'd run a slow Brave build and just stack Atk and go for a 2-hit kill.

If her HP is 47 or lower (so at +10 with the unique refine, but with no Dragonflowers or blessing boosts), you can actually activate Brazen Atk/Spd while keeping her unique refine effect active with a single use of Ardent Sacrifice.

On the other hand. Cordelia can run a pretty good Brave Windsweep/Watersweep set if you invest in both Atk and Spd:

Cordelia [+Atk / +Spd] (Cordelia's Lance [unique], Life and Death 4, Windsweep 3 / Watersweep 3, Swift Sparrow 2), etc.

Leaf

The Slaying effect is really big. The extra stat bonus is really just icing on the cake for most builds. It's simple, but it's good, and it doesn't force any big changes to his builds.

But it does make it easier for him to run Galeforce with the Spd boost if the opponent is at full health if that's your fancy.

As for new builds, you can actually use Blazing Wind or Blazing Light on him now with Special Spiral and Infantry Pulse or Velouria support.

Henry

Guard and a combat penalty on his weapon are really nice. The activation condition is also pretty lenient, one, because his Atk is low and, two, because it only accounts for his Atk at the beginning of combat, meaning in-combat bonuses like Bonus Doubler or Fierce Stance won't get in the way if you're running them. The combat penalty is also effectively equivalent to 3 stacks of Litrowl, which pretty much gives him a Raven-Owl weapon without the adjacency requirement.

Unfortunately, his Atk is still really low, so he needs to rely on landing a Special to actually deal damage, but he doesn't have Special acceleration options and is extremely slow, so is therefore completely reliant on Quick Riposte or Special Spiral to charge his Special.

It looks like he probably still wants to stick to running a Triangle Adept (or Bonus Doubler) build, though. Probably something like

Henry [+Atk] (Corvus Tome [unique], Ignis, Triangle Adept 3 / Bonus Doubler 3, Special Spiral 3, Time's Pulse 3, Fierce Stance 3) with Velouria support.

 

14 hours ago, XRay said:

Blade is vulnerable to Panic. Owl is not very viable in Aether Raids unless his allies are also super bulky tanks who do not mind sticking with Henry.

Aether Raids isn't the only game mode.

 

14 hours ago, XRay said:

I am trying to find loopholes in the rules, not completely break the rules.

You're doing a bad job of it, then. First off, these rules are descriptive, not prescriptive. As a corollary, that means that for the purposes of player-generated ideas, these rules are purely exclusive: they will tell you if something is unlikely, but won't tell you if something is likely. Loopholes don't exist because the rules aren't the whole picture.

Free effects are basically only added for lore (Wing Sword, etc.), as a weapon type common effect (Daggers, etc.), or to maintain the effect of the unit's original weapon (Whitewing Spear, etc.). It's rare for them to be added purely on a "whim" (Dauntless Lance).

 

2 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Rebecca's base Prf and effect aren't bad in PvE. The big problem is that debuffs are common.

The only debuff that affects her weapon's effect is Panic. The existence of penalties can't change whether or not a bonus is active. If she has +6 to Atk from Atk Tactic and -7 to Atk from Chill Atk, then she'll still activate her weapon's effect despite the total being negative because the bonus of +6 is still there.

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2 hours ago, Zeo said:

Rebecca is the biggest loser of the group though. That hurts a lot. Niles got a Slaying Effect, True Damage and a Flashing Blade effect while Rebecca only gets +4 to all stats with a hone despite being just as weak if not weaker as a unit. Pretty pitiful. With Bonus Doubler she could be a decent archer but that means she needs premium A fodder to be as good as other units  without it and that's without any specific niche or specialization that sets her apart. Massively disappointing.

Niles has 25 base neutral attack while Rebecca has 29 base neutral attack; 5 less attack compared to her. With neutral attack, Niles has 39 Atk with his Bow to Rebecca's 43. If his foe's Def >= their Res+5, then he deals 7 damage, so he has 46 Atk against those units, so kind of like 39 (+7) Atk. If not, then he's stuck with 39 Atk. It's guaranteed damage if he meets the requirement to deal guaranteed damage.

Flashing Blade 3 as the unique refinement allows Niles to abuse his good resistance for spamming Iceberg or Glacies if he has Time's Pulse. Problem is Niles's base neutral speed is 34, the same as Rebecca's. The other units with Flashing Blade 3 as part of their personal weapon's effect(s) are Ayra, Caeda, and Clair where Clair has the lowest neutral speed of those three at 36 while Ayra and Caeda share 37 base neutral speed which is what +Spd Niles and +Spd Rebecca would have. They're going to have an easier time passing the speed check than Niles. Additionally, Ayra has Spd+3 as the other effect, so neutral Ayra has 40 Spd with her blade and she has Regnal Astra which makes use of her high speed while Caeda and Clair have effective damage against armor and cavalry and are fliers who can easily stack Goad Fliers buffs for speed and attack.

If you want to make it easier to pass the speed check, then Niles would want +Spd, but that puts him at 25/37 offenses before his bow. Nina, Norne, Setsuna, Tanya are around that speed, but have higher attack and in Nina's case, slightly worse magical bulk. Nina doesn't have the Killer or Flashing Blade effect, but she is basically a gen 2 version of her father minus the personal bow he gained. Norne trades some magical bulk for physical bulk letting her be a good mixed tank. Setsuna and Tanya exist. If you want to be less reliant on specials and foes with higher defense than resistance, then +Atk for the superasset would be nice, but that gives Niles 29/34 offenses which is Rebecca's neutral offenses.

Rebecca gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 with any field buff. Buff negation, debuffs, and Panic exist, but field buffs are just easy things. I already gave my example where with a Fortify Res 3 where Rebecca would have one more Res than Niles's neutral Res. It's not her visible resistance, Niles's Res will always be higher, and Niles wasn't buffed, but Rebecca can get a lot of in combat stats. Fortify Res 3 puts neutral Rebecca at 47 Atk, 38 Spd, 25 Def, and 35 Res. She is not guaranteed 7 damage against foes with higher defense than resistance like Niles, but she actually has 47 Atk if she gets non-Atk field buffs. The old reliable Hone Atk 3 gives neutral Niles 43 (+7) Atk and leaves his other stats untouched, so 34 Spd, 17 Def, and 34 Res while Rebecca would have 51 Atk, 38 Spd, 25 Def, and 31 Res in combat.

If anything, Rebecca's new bow puts her on par with Tanya in stats. Neutral Tanya with her default kit has 41 HP, 42 (+7) Atk, 37 Spd, 25 Def, and 28 Res. Hone Atk 3 would give her 46 (+7) Atk, 37 Spd, 25 Def, and 28 Res which compared to Rebecca is -5 (+7) Atk, -1 Spd, and -3 Res. Add in another -6 to Spd since Rebecca has Darting Blow 3 as part of her default kit. Tanya's advantage is that those are her raw stats as without a field buff, Rebecca will not have Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4, but Rebecca's advantages are that she has personal Killer Bow, she has an arguably better default kit than Tanya, and she was in the game much longer than Tanya, so she could have been merged to +10 by someone by now. Why does Tanya even have Pass?

Edited by Kaden
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4 minutes ago, Kaden said:

she has an arguably better default kit than Tanya,

Default kits don't matter to most players unless rare skills are involved, and neither of them have rare skills (almost by tautology because neither character is rare).

 

5 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Why does Tanya even have Pass?

Continuing Takumi's legacy.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Default kits don't matter to most players unless rare skills are involved, and neither of them have rare skills (almost by tautology because neither character is rare).

Seal Atk, though. 😛

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Continuing Takumi's legacy.

I guess she needs to continue his legacy of being able to pass people at high speeds to deliver Hoshido's finest tofu.

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Hm... so Watersweep/Windsweep Cordelia has 1 less Atk than Firesweep Cordelia and uses an extra skill slot and misses out on some weapon types, but doesn't care about Wary Fighter.

Building around that HP restriction is a pain in the ass.

On the other hand, a maxed out Cordelia (47 HP without Dragonflowers and 48 HP with Dragonflowers) will have both her weapon effect and Desperation active if she gets hit by Upheaval from 2 enemy Dumas...

But you can only have 1 Mythic bonus on your team if you do that.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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