General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I was thinking something like this:

Base effect: Sol Lance + Shining Bow
Refine effect: At the start of combat, if [bonus] is active on unit, [penalty] is active on foe, or foe's HP < 100%, grants unit Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up.

Basically, he gets a similar effect as Arthur and Jakob, but his condition is a simple version of "if I am better than you".

I like the ideas, but that sounds like a kind of extreme implementation. I feel like both the base and refine effects could be toned down a bit and still add up to being plenty respectable.

Also, with a healing weapon, maybe it'd feel more fitting to care about his own HP being 100%?

Could be something like:

• Base effect: Heal 7 HP per attack + Shining Bow
• Refine effect: At the start of combat, if [bonus] is active on unit or unit's HP = 100%, grants unit Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up.

[DefyingFates]

45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Though someone who has played Three Houses will have to let me know Crusher works in that game. I know it deals magic damage, but I don't know if it does so because it casts magic or because it just whacks people magically.

The latter. For the record, Marianne's Relic (the sword Blutgang) is the same, so chances are she'll also deal adaptive damage when she joins FEH.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

• Refine effect: At the start of combat, if [bonus] is active on unit or unit's HP = 100%, grants unit Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up.

I would either lower the HP requirement or add additional conditions so the effect is easier to trigger. HP=100% is a really harsh condition in my opinion.

Edited March 28, 2020 by XRay

[Othin]

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

I would either lower the HP requirement or add additional conditions so the effect is easier to trigger. HP=100% is a really harsh condition in my opinion.

"Bonus is active on unit" isn't enough?

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

I like the ideas, but that sounds like a kind of extreme implementation. I feel like both the base and refine effects could be toned down a bit and still add up to being plenty respectable.

Also, with a healing weapon, maybe it'd feel more fitting to care about his own HP being 100%?

Could be something like:

• Base effect: Heal 7 HP per attack + Shining Bow
• Refine effect: At the start of combat, if [bonus] is active on unit or unit's HP = 100%, grants unit Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up.

Narcian has literally one of the worst stat distributions in the game. Forsyth has 24 more points of stats than Narcian does including the 3 Def on his weapon and has them much more optimally allocated.

I don't see how 10 HP per attack is too much for Narcian or how 23 points of stats (20 of which are conditional) is too much for Narcian when he is behind Forsyth by 24 points and has his stats poorly spread out. I don't mind changing the condition (though I'd prefer keeping the penalty condition so he can continue to pick on the weak), but I don't see a problem with the numbers themselves.

Forsyth has 47/40/20/42/33 with Bold Fighter. Narcian with my weapon proposal would have 45/34/34/37/31 with a guaranteed follow-up on his weapon.

For context, Cherche has an effective 51/34/20/32/16 with her Atk refine with a stronger "guaranteed follow-up" effect. Arthur has 46/40/37/38/32 with both of his weapon effects active. The current premium offensive front-runners with axes are Hilda with 43/43/46/28/23, Annette with 40/42/36/28/30, Edelgard with 41/39/30/37/21 with a guaranteed follow-up and the Slaying effect, and Spring Fir with 39/35/41/28/24 with the Slaying effect and Null Follow-Up.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

34 minutes ago, Othin said:

"Bonus is active on unit" isn't enough?

You do not want to always use bonus buffs on Enemy Phase units. Panic would easily shut the condition down. At the minimum, I would add the Penalties and negative status effect on foe condition since tanks do often use Smokes and they sometimes also rely on debuffers for support.

[Hilda]

13 hours ago, Othin said:

"Bonus is active on unit" isn't enough?

Best example is Fallen Tiki

Her C-Skill can be her biggest asset, but it can be also her biggest weakpoint (asside from effectiv damage), if you have someone that can panic her. The only way to turn it off is by either removing it or standing near a non Dragon-ally. which removes her biggest asset.

Sometimes its more beneficial to not have any buffs on at all.

[Nym]

Am I the only one who is afraid that Gaius' refine isn't going to be good?

I really wish the refine is good. Maybe not Brave Ike's level of amazing but just good. 

And I want to use my +Attack Gaius, IS.

But seeing his whole thing about candy and his dagger being a candy, I'm really afraid he might get something bad. Or that they will copy Asugi's personnal skill and slap it on his weapon. And that's not something he needs as an unit with low attack.

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Nym said:

I really wish the refine is good. Maybe not Brave Ike's level of amazing but just good. 

It would be nice if he can power creep Kronya. Something like Firesweep-Meister-Blade-Special Spiral dagger with Null C-Disrupt Refinement sounds good.

[Xenomata]

11 minutes ago, XRay said:

It would be nice if he can power creep Kronya. Something like Firesweep-Meister-Blade-Special Spiral dagger with Null C-Disrupt Refinement sounds good.

Okay first off, that's a little more than powercreeping... more like annihilating all other daggers from the face of all tier lists.

Second... y'all do know we're talking about a little bear lolipop, right?

[Hilda]

32 minutes ago, Nym said:

Am I the only one who is afraid that Gaius' refine isn't going to be good?

I really wish the refine is good. Maybe not Brave Ike's level of amazing but just good. 

And I want to use my +Attack Gaius, IS.

But seeing his whole thing about candy and his dagger being a candy, I'm really afraid he might get something bad. Or that they will copy Asugi's personnal skill and slap it on his weapon. And that's not something he needs as an unit with low attack.

I think they will give Gaius a more Support like Refine. Maybe a 3 range Healing AoE effect with buffs on the side or so, otherwise almost every offensive Dagger role is taken. I mean he hasnt non existent bulk and low attack, the only thing going for him is his Spd, which is midling nowadays with all the powercreep and his moderate HP.
Felicia: Adaptiv Damage
Jakob: Deals massive damage when near a damaged unit and when he initiates
Kagero: Raw Damage and the ability to survive the first counter hit
Saizo: works around debuffs
Mathew: works around debuffs too but in a different Blade-Tome esque way
Jaffar: AoE Chip damage master

The only thing i can see that would work is a refine based around his SPD

Maybe he gets a Ruse Atk/SPD special refine to go with his Rally SPD
 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Hilda

[Zeo]

Given his high speed, Close Call could be a nice option for him alongside adaptive damage or maybe ATK/SPD +5 during combat to proc his effect easier.

[Nym]

22 hours ago, XRay said:

It would be nice if he can power creep Kronya. Something like Firesweep-Meister-Blade-Special Spiral dagger with Null C-Disrupt Refinement sounds good.

Sugar Honey Ice Tea, that's a lot of skills for one dagger. I think you pushed it a bit too far. XD

22 hours ago, Hilda said:

I think they will give Gaius a more Support like Refine. Maybe a 3 range Healing AoE effect with buffs on the side or so, otherwise almost every offensive Dagger role is taken. I mean he hasnt non existent bulk and low attack, the only thing going for him is his Spd, which is midling nowadays with all the powercreep and his moderate HP.
Felicia: Adaptiv Damage
Jakob: Deals massive damage when near a damaged unit and when he initiates
Kagero: Raw Damage and the ability to survive the first counter hit
Saizo: works around debuffs
Mathew: works around debuffs too but in a different Blade-Tome esque way
Jaffar: AoE Chip damage master

The only thing i can see that would work is a refine based around his SPD

Maybe he gets a Ruse Atk/SPD special refine to go with his Rally SPD
 

Yep, it feels like everyone has already something he could use. Even if adaptive damage doesn't matter on a unit with low attack like Felicia -_-'

22 hours ago, Zeo said:

Given his high speed, Close Call could be a nice option for him alongside adaptive damage or maybe ATK/SPD +5 during combat to proc his effect easier.

Um... I'm not sure. Gaius' biggest problem is his garbage attack, plus Close Call refine as an extra effect could be really nice.

[XRay]

29 minutes ago, Nym said:

Sugar Honey Ice Tea, that's a lot of skills for one dagger. I think you pushed it a bit too far. XD

It will help future proof Gaius at least through the next year, if not several years.

[Kaden]

Update's live.

Gunter's Inveterate Axe: "[Base] At start of turn, if unit's HP >= 50%, inflicts Atk/Def-5 on foe on the enemy team with the lowest Spd through its next action. [Unique] Grants Atk/Def+4 to infantry and cavalry allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an infantry or cavalry ally, grants Atk/Def+4 to unit during combat."

Gaius's Candied Dagger: "[Base] If unit initiates combat, grants Spd+4 and boosts damage by 10% of unit's Spd during combat. Effect: [Dagger 7]. [Unique] At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, deals +7 damage. When a Special triggers before combat, if foe's HP = 100%, deals +7 damage before combat."

Mage Knight Eirika: "[Base] Grants Res+3. At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat. [Unique] At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-4 on foe and neutralizes unit's penalties during combat."

Ursula: "[Base] Effective against cavalry foes. [Unique] Grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat."

So, Gunter has a Atk/Def version of spring Sharena's Muninn's Egg or a speed targeting version of spring Catria's Huginn's Egg for his Inveterate's Axe's base effect. The unique refinement is an Atk/Def version of Oscar's Loyal Greatlance's unique refinement effect: "Grants Atk/Spd+3 to infantry and cavalry allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an infantry or cavalry ally, grants Atk/Spd+3 during combat." Overall, it lets Gunter be a debuff and buff bot.

Gaius's Candied Dagger's base effect is like Darting Blow 2 with an additional effect, the boost his damage by 10% of his speed effect. Neutral Gaius has 43/36 offenses with Candied Dagger equipped. Initiating will give him 40 Spd and 10% of 40 is 4, so he will have 47 Atk. Considering the low scaling, +Atk probably would be better than +Spd since he's getting actual damage at the cost of finding it more difficult to double people. The unique refinement is interesting. It seems like they want us to spam AoE specials with Gaius. What I'm not sure on is if the effects work together because if they do, then Gaius is guaranteed the ability to cherry tap any foe at full health who ends up with <= 7 HP after an AoE special as he deals 7 damage during combat regardless if his attack is so low he does 0 damage against a foe. Overall, it's interesting with all the different effects it has.

The foe at full health condition for Gleipnir's base effect was increased from Atk/Spd+3 to Atk/Spd+4. The unique effect is like an opposite version of Perceval's Prized Lance foe at full health condition. Where Perceval gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 and inflicts Guard on a foe at full health, mage knight Eirika inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-4 on her foe at full health and neutralizes penalties on her. It's finicky in a sense of both effects requiring Eirika to fight foes at full health, but she gets Atk/Spd+8 and Def/Res+4 which gives a neutral mage knight Eirika 53 Atk, 43 Spd, 24 Def, and 29 Res in combat. She also comes with Swift Sparrow 2 by default, so that's an additional Atk/Spd+4 for 57/47 offenses on initiation against a foe at full health. Also, RIP Lloyd.

Ursula becomes a blue Gunnthra with Blue-Crow Tome's unique refinement. Stat-wise, Ursula will not have access to assets and banes for +Atk or +Spd and her offenses are 2 points less in attack and 1 point less in speed compared to neutral Gunnthra. Ursula's 35 HP, 29 Atk, 32 Spd, 19 Def, and 30 Res to Gunnthra's 37 HP, 31 Atk, 33 Spd, 19 Def, and 25 Res. But Ursula is easier to get as a grail unit, she will match a merged =Spd Gunnthra as HP, Spd, and Res are Ursula's highest stats at level 1, and Ursula's 30 base Res to Gunnthra's 28 base neutral Res with Blizzard equipped makes it slightly easier for Ursula to use Sabotages and Ploys to debuff foes. It's simple and it works. Just feels weird for Matthew where Broadleaf Fan was introduced shortly after the weapon update for him and then Ursula ended up with the same unique refinement.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Kaden

[FoxyGrandpa]

Guther's refine is pretty good, basically Morgan's refine, but for attack and Defense. Spring Catria / Shareena debuff as the base effect makes him work well with ursula, Gunthra, and mathew too, which is neat.

Ursula's refine seems ok. It lets her be a budget, blue Gunthra.  With Lull's and Distance Def 4 being a thing, it might be more reliable that a blade tome, especially with a team comp that supports it.

Erika's refine seems mediocre in the player's control, but decent if used by the AI. 

Gaius's new prf is weird. Its one of those percentage based weapons, which should make it amazing, but it requires investing in speed, which becomes a dead stat once you start doubling the opponent. And you need to invest a lot in speed to noticeably benefit from it (10 points in speed only translates to one extra damage). Swift Sparrow in A and Seal, and at plus 10 merge, would only grant him a net bonus of 5/6 points of damage in an ideal scenario, which is only on par with sothe. I can't see this one being too amazing personally.

[silverserpent]

One day...one day I will +10 her for nostalgia. That day will not be today, but she can enjoy her shiny new weapon. Since I already had a debuff skill on her...

[XRay]

Not a huge fan of effects that require opponent to have 100% HP.

Gaius's Candied Dagger is passable I guess.

Gleipnir is unacceptable though, and SM!Eirika might as well just stick with Rauðrblade. I do not think it is a good idea to trade away 16 Atk for 8 Spd, and that is assuming the enemy is at full HP. If the enemy is not at full HP, then Rauðrblade is just simply superior.

The others look fine.

Edited April 7, 2020 by XRay

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

Guther's refine is pretty good, basically Morgan's refine, but for attack and Defense. Spring Catria / Shareena debuff as the base effect makes him work well with ursula, Gunthra, and mathew too, which is neat.

Ursula's refine seems ok. It lets her be a budget, blue Gunthra.  With Lull's and Distance Def 4 being a thing, it might be more reliable that a blade tome, especially with a team comp that supports it.

Erika's refine seems mediocre in the player's control, but decent if used by the AI. 

Gaius's new prf is weird. Its one of those percentage based weapons, which should make it amazing, but it requires investing in speed, which becomes a dead stat once you start doubling the opponent. And you need to invest a lot in speed to noticeably benefit from it (10 points in speed only translates to one extra damage). Swift Sparrow in A and Seal, and at plus 10 merge, would only grant him a net bonus of 5/6 points of damage in an ideal scenario, which is only on par with sothe. I can't see this one being too amazing personally.

If we can get Cavalry buffs as Seals then Gunther and Reinhardt are going to walk down the aisle.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jotari

[FoxyGrandpa]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If we can get Cavalry buffs as Seals then Gunther and Reinhardt care going to walk down the aisle.

Reinhardt is already getting buffed thanks to Drive Attack 4 giving him Death Blow for free in his C slot. Just run Rally Up Attack on Gunther with Def / Res Ruse in the B Slot and watch his BF go to down with a net gain of +38 Attack when initiating on the enemy (+14 from double Death Blow, + 7 from Lull Atk Res & Drive Attack 4, + 6 from Rally atk spd+, +11 from Gunther's prf, Goad Calvary, and Drive Attack Seal.

Edited April 7, 2020 by FoxyGrandpa

[Xenomata]

>Gunter has a largely supportive role like Jagen, though unlike Jagen he benefits directly from those supportive effects, unlike Jagen having half of Distant Ward.
What I'm not a fan of is... I mean I saw it coming, but he is a worse Frederick stat-wise, but he still has arguably better effects on his weapon than Freddys Armor effectiveness and DB3 effect...

>Give him 10 dragonflower upgrades and a +Spd nature, and he sits pretty at 41 Spd, giving his weapon a technical Swift Sparrow weapon. Boost him to +10 merge and he goes up to 45 Spd. Life and Death 3 gets him to 50 Spd, so he now has Spd to rival most modern offensive nukes. Course he doesn't need +Spd, +Atk is great to, and without his weapon but all the boosts above he gets to 43 Atk while still having enough Spd to get the +5 damage boost. If you ask me, between that and the special refine effect, Gaius should have been given a solid boost to his damage.
Not sure how I feel about the damage boost to AoE skills...

>Eirika... is honestly somewhat disappointing. I'm already wary of skills that activate at 100% foe HP, but to be given a 100% foe HP refine that is just Raudhrfox... I'm gonna keep her using Bladetome.

>Ursula... eh. Unlike Matthew, she'll need some support to get the most out of that refine, but I'm sure with that assistance all Cavalry will be dead in one hit. But she'll need that support.

[eclipse]

I'm honestly not impressed.  Might be able to build around Ursula using a dagger with Smoke as her buddy.  Gunther's more supporting than anything (I just pulled Olwen, so RIP), Gaius' base weapon is okay but what the hell is that refine effect, and Eirika's a worse case of Gaius.

[Vicious Sal]

So with the refines we now have each Axe cav carving itself a niche, which is good.

 

Gunter: Support unit and great on cav teams.

Frederick: Tin can compacter, not much else.

Titania: Better buffer than Gunter, but only on tactics teams.

Marth: Player phase i guess

 

So I like his refine, it makes him unique.

 

 

Eirika is a meme, and an underwhelming one at that.

 

Gaius is the most interesting, but this imo explains it quite well: You will get lots of different opinions, but I personally think Gaius is a bit of a bait; even assuming Gaius is operating under the "perfect" conditions for  (he's initiating combat against a foe with 100% HP), his dagger is essentially death blow 3 + 7 free OOC damage. This sounds like a great way to ramp up his DPS, until we look at his base atk stat of 29 and realize he'll still only be matching the likes of Sothe wielding a generic weapon. 
True damage sounds tempting, but if you're ever relying on 5 damage being true you're probably already losing, so in practice it's around the same effect as death blow 3ish. Thus, the most notable bit of his refine is 7 out of combat damage; while this can serve as an activator for many skills that rely on the foe being <100% HP or hit by a debuff... so can, yknow, a default dagger.
Thus, Gaius' dagger doesn't particularly help him carve out any niche, nor does it grant him earthrending amounts of damage to even outcompete the likes of Sothe or Chad. Even if you have a Gaius, depending on what you use him for he still might prefer ouch pouch/broadleaf/barb shuriken over his PRF.

 

Ursula is a good refine, in a meta that does not suit her. Even in AR, against cav lines she can not counterattck most on astra since they use staves and all the dark cav lines use archers which are all green. 

I can see her work in niche cases and maybe on a AR defense map but then she still competes with Reinhardt.

[Zeo]

Overwhelmingly disappointing batch of refines.

Gunter's refine is decent. Gives him a bit of support and utility. He debuffs likely the bulkiest unit on the enemy team while buffing cav/inf allies for the same stat as well as himself. It's a nice little buff that he can stack with drives and a chill for support utility. The weapon isn't the problem. The problem is it's on Gunter who just doesn't have the stats to utilize this weapon as anything other than a support bot. He's shoehorned into a support role which is one newer units fill better due to overall superior statlines. He's servicable, it's just that there's still little reason to use him. He needed an OP weapon like the newer units and he didn't get one. Expected, but still a shame. Guess it's time the old man retired.

Eirika's refine is worthless. I figured they'd take the 100% HP requirement off and give her an additional effect. Instead they doubled down on it. Giving her a decent stat boost when her opponent is at full health, but the tome remains worthless in any other scenario. Removing penalties is a nice bonus but it's just a cherry on top of an already mediocre cake. A blade tome is still better which is sad. To think I was prepared to use dew on my +2 Eirika. Hard pass.

Gaius refine is a weird one. He only get a few more points of damage from his % increase along with Darting Blow 2 but he's pretty fast so it's decent. Then if the opponent is at 100% and he's got an AoE special he gets true damage added during combat and a flat +7 added to his AoE special. They are neat perks that help him and they carve him out a little niche but they aren't enough to help his abysmal damage. If anything though, the true damage during combat will help seal the deal against opponents he'd normally do a flat 0 to so it's a servicable refine. I don't think it's enough to put him on par with a lot of the other daggers but those who love him and want to invest in him will be able to put in work. Special Spiral and Flashing Blade 4 seem like pretty great choices for his kit also. He's the clear winner, but only if you plan to +10 him and invest at the highest level, otherwise keep moving.

Ursula's is trash. It's literally just Matthew's refine on a Wolf tome which is unbelievably lazy. What's worse is that it's on a weapon with no natural debuffs which means she either relies on team comp or is restricted to Chills, Threatens and Smokes to increase damage.

The only bright side to this set of refines is that I don't have any real investment in any of these characters or units so I'm unaffected. I will say though that the idea of a +SPD Flashing Blade 4, Special Spiral, SPD Smoke, Darting Blow/Brazen ATK SPD Gaius with his refine sounds pretty fun. Like a Mini-Igrene.

EDIT: I think a build like this would be pretty good for Gaius.

+12 True damage whenever he's faster than his opponent which is basically all the time. Special Spiral which will proc and FB4 will get his special ready immediately, Rouse SPD/DEF for additional speed on the constant (Rouse ATK/SPD would be ideal if it existed at the time of writing) and Darting Blow basically for insurance but Swift Sparrow if you want a bit more kick would work just as well. With a build like this Gaius would need a round of combat in order to get going unless you run Quickened + Time's Pulse and ran him on a double IP team. But as soon as his special is ready (Which it would be after a single round of combat he's good to go.

@XRay Your thoughts?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Zeo

[Ice Dragon]

Well, it looks like Ursula might be taking Spring Catria's place on my Hrid-Gunnthra debuff team eventually.

 

5 hours ago, Kaden said:

What I'm not sure on is if the effects work together because if they do,

I'm 99% sure that they don't since "at the start of combat" happens after any before-combat effects take place. The second effect of adding to AoE Special damage is probably there to avoid screwing over AoE Special builds which would normally prevent the first effect from happening.

But someone's going to have to test to confirm.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Ice Dragon