General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Tybrosion]

I guess Shiro can just go and pour one out with L’Arachel.

That aside, all of these guys certainly needed the help (especially Narcian).

[Sunwoo]

Hey, I'm pretty sure Shiro will get a weapon refine someday.

If the devs still remember he exists.

[Zeo]

17 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Hey, I'm pretty sure Shiro will get a weapon refine someday.

If the devs still remember he exists.

He may as well just demote. He has literally nothing useful for fodder and goes toe to toe with Lukas as far as unit value. 

Scratch that, Lukas is actually better because he has a refine.

[Roflolxp54]

Oh dang -- I actually have all 4 units -- with Gwen and Leon at 5+10 and Siegbert at +1 +Spd! Pretty curious to see what they do especially since I'm just letting refine stones pile up.

[XRay]

39 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

It's that time again! Time for @XRay to hope they finally implement a weapon with Slaying, Firesweep, Brave, Dual-phase Desperation, Vantage, Distant Counter, Guaranteed follow-up attacks, all foe B-skill nullifications, Special Fighter, and also Colorless advantage cause why not!

Siegbert, Gwendolyn, Leon, and Narcian edition.

~Siegbert's Dark Greatsword has Swift Sparrow by default. Not that exciting. His Personal Skill in Fates, Gallant, boosted the damage of the lead unit in a Pair Up by 2 if his partner was Female.

~Gwendolyn's default weapon was the Killer Lance.

~Leon's default weapon was the Slaying Bow.

~Narcian's default weapon was the Emerald Axe, but the weapon he is known to use in his original game, the Runesword, had an HP drain effect similar to Nosferatu and was treated as a magic weapon at range. Seems doubtful they'll give him Distant Counter, so let's just assume he'll get an effect similar to Forsyth's Sol Lance.

Since Siegbert seems to be strictly Player Phase, I think some kind of effect that helps him Galeforce would be good. Slaying effect with Flashing Blade would be perfect in my opinion. Auto Galeforce like Raging Storm would be even more perfect.

Giving Gwendolyn a dual phase omnibreaker Slaying Lance would be nice. As a gen I armor unit, she is pretty crap BST wise. Adding insult to injury, her Atk is also kind of garbage. Omnibreaker Slaying Lance would make her much less frustrating to use.

It would be nice if Leon gets Special Spiral on his Slaying Bow. Having Hardy Bearing as the Refinement would be perfect. This allows Leon to function as a Blazing archer à la Ophelia or a Counter-Vantage unit à la Ares.

Due to how much Narcian hates lances, a pathetic Sol Lance would not be befitting of such an amazing general. Narcian's Divine Majestic Ultra Axe should trigger Aether on every hit, eliminate flier weakness, have advantage against colorless units, have conditional Triangle Adept that is only active against colorless and blue foes, and have Slaying-Special Fighter-dual phase Omnibreaker built in. And for the Refinement effect, when under player's control, Narcian gets Embla's Ward.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Due to how much Narcian hates lances, a pathetic Sol Lance would not be befitting of such an amazing general. Narcian's Divine Majestic Ultra Axe should trigger Aether on every hit, eliminate flier weakness, have advantage against colorless units, have conditional Triangle Adept that is only active against colorless and blue foes, and have Slaying-Special Fighter-dual phase Omnibreaker built in. And for the Refinement effect, when under player's control, Narcian gets Embla's Ward.

DC + adaptive damage + enough damage reduction to make Brave Ike jealous + HP recovery.  😛

Though given the name on that axe, I'd be happy with adaptive damage.

[Jotari]

57 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

It's that time again! Time for @XRay to hope they finally implement a weapon with Slaying, Firesweep, Brave, Dual-phase Desperation, Vantage, Distant Counter, Guaranteed follow-up attacks, all foe B-skill nullifications, Special Fighter, and also Colorless advantage cause why not!

 

You know I get the joke here, but bringing up Firesweep and Vantage is making me think Firesweeping weapons that can counter seems like it'll eventually be a thing. Meister weapons powercrept away the idea of Brave Weapons being single phase. Removing the entire conceit of Firesweeps probably isn't too far off (personally I think the meister weapons should have been inheritable enemy phase only brave weapons, but Heroes does love it's accelerated power creep).

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Though given the name on that axe, I'd be happy with adaptive damage.

I knew I forgot to include an effect.

[Sunwoo]

35 minutes ago, Zeo said:

He may as well just demote. He has literally nothing useful for fodder and goes toe to toe with Lukas as far as unit value. 

Scratch that, Lukas is actually better because he has a refine.

He, along with several other units, should just demote at this point, yeah. But unless IS suddenly decides to demote a bunch of book 1 5-stars next year, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

Blue Olwen is also another unit who needs to demote. 5-star locked so difficult to +10 or get a good nature for, can't use Dire Thunder as well as Olwen, L'Arachel can bladetome better than she can AND is in the 3-4 star pool, might not get a refine because who knows if the game is willing to refine Dire Thunder ...

Yeah.

I think Dire Thunder should get some sort of a refine. Sure, Reinhardt is still powerful even now, but ... I mean. Is he more ridiculous than some of the stuff that's coming out nowadays?

[XRay]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You know I get the joke here, but bringing up Firesweep and Vantage is making me think Firesweeping weapons that can counter seems like it'll eventually be a thing. Meister weapons powercrept away the idea of Brave Weapons being single phase. Removing the entire conceit of Firesweeps probably isn't too far off (personally I think the meister weapons should have been inheritable enemy phase only brave weapons, but Heroes does love it's accelerated power creep).

Power creep is for boring old gacha games. Heroes is better than that. What Heroes needs is power sprint.

Firesweep-Counter-Vantage sort of exists in the form of staff units and to a lesser extent Jaffar. Firesweep-Counter-Vantage is not exactly the best on staff units since there would be no room for Wrathful Staff so not being able to kill things could be an issue.

[Zeo]

4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I think Dire Thunder should get some sort of a refine. Sure, Reinhardt is still powerful even now, but ... I mean. Is he more ridiculous than some of the stuff that's coming out nowadays?

Two words.

Lull RES (3).

The game is now broken.

[Sunwoo]

Just now, Zeo said:

Two words.

Lull RES (3).

The game is now broken.

Still couldn't be more annoying than Kiria or Lysithea. Especially Kiria.

The lull res refine would really help Olwen out, but I suppose if IS were afraid of Reinhardt snapping the game in half they could do a heavy blade refine instead. It wouldn't be nearly as useful on Olwen though.

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Two words.

Lull RES (3).

The game is now broken.

It is honestly not that bad.

For something game breaking, I recommend Raging Storm as part of the the base effect with the Refinement being unconditional Wings of Mercy/Escape Route.

[Zeo]

8 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Still couldn't be more annoying than Kiria or Lysithea. Especially Kiria.

The lull res refine would really help Olwen out, but I suppose if IS were afraid of Reinhardt snapping the game in half they could do a heavy blade refine instead. It wouldn't be nearly as useful on Olwen though.

Problem with Heavy Blade is that Rein becomes that much more of a pain, can run Moonbow for free with Death Blow 7 and get instant special procs while Olwen gets effectively nothing. Then if we take it up to HB4, Olwen becomes a better unit, but still not great and Reinhardt successfully snaps the game in half.

Best way would just to do some coding work if possible and give them two separate refines ala' Falchion.

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

It is honestly not that bad.

For something game breaking, I recommend Raging Storm as part of the the base effect with the Refinement being unconditional Wings of Mercy/Escape Route.

Stop.

You know what? Forget that, why not just give him Holsety with the Bold Fighter effect?

Edited April 29, 2020 by Zeo

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Problem with Heavy Blade is that Rein becomes that much more of a pain, can run Moonbow for free with Death Blow 7 and get instant special procs while Olwen gets effectively nothing. Then if we take it up to HB4, Olwen becomes a better unit, but still not great and Reinhardt successfully snaps the game in half.

Best way would just to do some coding work if possible and give them two separate refines ala' Falchion.

Only problem with Reinhardt and Olwen getting separate refines is that their Dire Thunders are the same weapon, while there are effectively multiple Falchions in the game. Base Marth has a different Falchion than base Alm, who has a different Falchion from base Chrom, Lucina, and Masked Marth. The latter three have the same refine because theirs are the same.

[Jotari]

Olwen is pretty massively outclassed by Reinhardt who is still really useful. So a Dire Thunder refine should be more focused on making her better. So perhaps a Darting Blow+Flashing Blade effect and dropping the Spd penalty. That would help her become a guaranteed quad attacking moonbow proc'er. And maybe a desperation effect too, which seems like a lot of skills but she kind of needs it. Wouldn't boost Reinhardt all that much, though having a team backing up with Cavalry buffs would still make him able to use it. Something like Naesala's weapon effect could work too. Though Olwen still isn't quite fast enough normally for that to be too amazing. Another option would be to give it a support effect, so it wouldn't help Reinhardt be more of a power house but would still be useful. Maybe like an Attack Tactic or Cavalry combat boost.

16 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Only problem with Reinhardt and Olwen getting separate refines is that their Dire Thunders are the same weapon, while there are effectively multiple Falchions in the game. Base Marth has a different Falchion than base Alm, who has a different Falchion from base Chrom, Lucina, and Masked Marth. The latter three have the same refine because theirs are the same.

Hence the aformentioned coding work. Wouldn't be as easy, but still completely possible I'm sure.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Jotari

[Zeo]

31 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Only problem with Reinhardt and Olwen getting separate refines is that their Dire Thunders are the same weapon, while there are effectively multiple Falchions in the game. Base Marth has a different Falchion than base Alm, who has a different Falchion from base Chrom, Lucina, and Masked Marth. The latter three have the same refine because theirs are the same.

I say coding work because it should technically be possible within the game itself. 

As far as lore goes, are we really restricting ourselves to something as flimsy as continuity in the game where units that don't have prfs in their original games have prfs (Lute, Mia, etc) and pre-time skip characters are getting their post-time skip weapons? (Annette). Just separate the weapons. Game balance should always be the most important thing with things like lore and source material faithfulness as maybe a close 2nd.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Zeo

[Humanoid]

Within the existing framework it's trivial to give Olwen a completely new weapon only she can learn, don't see why it has to be in any way related to Dire Thunder. Just give her a blue version of Thunderhead and all's good.

That said, I say just give Dire Thunder a blade effect. 😈

 

Narcian, on the other hand - I don't see why he wouldn't just get the same conditional brave effect as the other Whitewings. 😛

[Sasori]

Its odd not seeing Shiro on the list of refine units. I always thought he'd get his refine at the same time as Siegbert, considering they seem designed to contrast with each other gameplay-wise.

But Siegbert getting one a refine is great. His weapon started to fall behind and its good to see him on a banner.

Narcian might get that rune...axe that he should have gotten on day.

Also is it me or Gwendolyn the first armour unit that got a refine? I don't remember anyone else
 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Sasori

[Humanoid]

8 minutes ago, Sasori said:

Also is it me or Gwendolyn the first armour unit that got a refine? I don't remember anyone else

First summonable 3-4* armour, yeah. If we extend it out to cover any 3-4* available armour though, Zephiel has one.

 

As much as Shiro needs a refine, I wouldn't like the precedent of yet another 5* exclusive unit squeezing out a potential upgrade for an F2P-friendly 3-4* unit. The 1:3 ratio we have now is the better option I feel until we exhaust Book 1.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Humanoid

[Othin]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know I get the joke here, but bringing up Firesweep and Vantage is making me think Firesweeping weapons that can counter seems like it'll eventually be a thing. Meister weapons powercrept away the idea of Brave Weapons being single phase. Removing the entire conceit of Firesweeps probably isn't too far off (personally I think the meister weapons should have been inheritable enemy phase only brave weapons, but Heroes does love it's accelerated power creep).

As Merric shows, the NFU weapons can work like that by being paired with a Sweep skill, although that only works on half the damage types.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Looks like a skip month. I'm okay with that. Between my new Eliwood and Hector projects, I won't have divine dews for a while.

 

Maybe if Gwendolyn gets a really good refine, I'll make her a project. I dislike her much less than Effie or Valbar.

[LoneStar]

It's nice to see Leon. I wanted to invest in a cheap archer at some point and I though Leon would be ideal, but I haven't built him up yet and the up coming refine is a good excuse to do so. I'm sitting on enough Feathers and Manuals to +10 him, so it better be something good. I'm thinking a Hunter's Volley refine since Echoes introduced that skill.

Edited April 29, 2020 by LoneStar

[GenealogyOfTheHolyValflame]

RIP Arvis once again. I'm just setting myself up for disappointment at this point. Narcian finaly gets his day though!!

[Azuni]

Gwendy's refine came a year or more too late; perma benched now since she's a wheelchair 170 bst bin unit.