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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


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We now have Moonless Breath as a further upgraded Expiration, so if they were to have a current refine get full DC plus another effect, the other effect would probably be aimed at a power level no higher than Moonless Breath's.

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34 minutes ago, Othin said:

We now have Moonless Breath as a further upgraded Expiration, so if they were to have a current refine get full DC plus another effect, the other effect would probably be aimed at a power level no higher than Moonless Breath's.

I think something to also consider is that Sothis and DH!F!Robin got access to exclusive skills that makes their relatively plain Weapon a little more palatable. Sothis essentially got better Aether and DH!F!Robin got a lot of extra stats and faster Special trigger on top of Iote's Shield.

I think it is okay for Nowi to get a Weapon that is a little more souped up than Moonless Breath.

Edited by XRay
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51 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think something to also consider is that Sothis and DH!F!Robin got access to exclusive skills that makes their relatively plain Weapon a little more palatable. Sothis essentially got better Aether and DH!F!Robin got a lot of extra stats and faster Special trigger on top of Iote's Shield.

I think it is okay for Nowi to get a Weapon that is a little more souped up than Moonless Breath.

Just because it'd be okay doesn't mean they'll do it. I think they want their new rare dragons to have an easier time than than standing out compared to an old common one anyone can +10 easily.

I think in general, it's fair to compare common launch units at +10 to new premium units at +0, which complicates the matter of stats.

Edited by Othin
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13 minutes ago, Othin said:

Just because it'd be okay doesn't mean they'll do it. I think they want their new rare dragons to have an easier time than than standing out compared to an old common one anyone can +10 easily.

I think in general, it's fair to compare +10 launch units to +0 new premium units, which complicates the matter of stats.

AOTB!Hector pretty much blows every armor out the way except for FE!Edelgard and ANF!Edelgard, and none of the other armors released since AOTB!Hector got his Refine are anything noteworthy.

Old units get access to more Dragonflowers, so I do not think the BST discrepancy is a big deal. If a unit gets Resplendent stats, then they are on par with the latest generation's BST. For example, SK!Dimitri got 177 BST while Lyn got 157, but Lyn got Resplendent stats on top of the extra ten Flowers, so that should land her in 177 BST.

Edited by XRay
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16 minutes ago, XRay said:

AOTB!Hector pretty much blows every armor out the way except for FE!Edelgard and ANF!Edelgard, and none of the other armors released since AOTB!Hector got his Refine are anything noteworthy.

Old units get access to more Dragonflowers, so I do not think the BST discrepancy is a big deal. If a unit gets Resplendent stats, then they are on par with the latest generation's BST. For example, SK!Dimitri got 177 BST while Lyn got 157, but Lyn got Resplendent stats on top of the extra ten Flowers, so that should land her in 177 BST.

Sure, but Hector is a rare unit, and specifically a rare CYL unit. I'd expect them to be reluctant to give a power set that strong to even a normal rare unit, let alone a common one.

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On 12/1/2020 at 2:12 AM, XRay said:

Old units get access to more Dragonflowers, so I do not think the BST discrepancy is a big deal. If a unit gets Resplendent stats, then they are on par with the latest generation's BST. For example, SK!Dimitri got 177 BST while Lyn got 157, but Lyn got Resplendent stats on top of the extra ten Flowers, so that should land her in 177 BST.

Perhaps, but Dragonflowers don't improve Arena scoring, correct? So you're still incentivized to keep collecting newer Heroes.

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29 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Perhaps, but Dragonflowers don't improve Arena scoring, correct? So you're still incentivized to keep collecting newer Heroes.

That is true, but it depends on where you want to be in Arena. I am still using Olivia, BH!Lyn, and Cordelia in Arena and I am in Tier 19.5 since like almost forever. They are not fully optimized for score either. If you want to be Tier 20.5,  that is probably where score optimization is more important and having the latest BST units matter.

I personally prioritize Aether Raids more, so BST is not a big deal unless it is the super tank. For players who prioritize Arena, BST would matter more.

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16 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is true, but it depends on where you want to be in Arena. I am still using Olivia, BH!Lyn, and Cordelia in Arena and I am in Tier 19.5 since like almost forever. They are not fully optimized for score either. If you want to be Tier 20.5,  that is probably where score optimization is more important and having the latest BST units matter.

I personally prioritize Aether Raids more, so BST is not a big deal unless it is the super tank. For players who prioritize Arena, BST would matter more.

Yeah, I've been hanging out in 20.5 for a while and the scoring is pretty tight. I've been managing with +10 BK/Gwendolyn/W!Jaffar, but I need a pretty good-scoring bonus unit, and I'm not sure how long that'll hold up without updating to higher-BST units. I've been able to maintain T21 once or twice, but that required a +10 bonus unit.

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14 hours ago, Othin said:

Yeah, I've been hanging out in 20.5 for a while and the scoring is pretty tight. I've been managing with +10 BK/Gwendolyn/W!Jaffar, but I need a pretty good-scoring bonus unit, and I'm not sure how long that'll hold up without updating to higher-BST units. I've been able to maintain T21 once or twice, but that required a +10 bonus unit.

That's pretty much me. I am a Tier 20.5 player and I can only keep Tier 21 if one of the random bonus units is someone that I already have at +10.

Until the beginning of this year, I was using OG Marth, OG Soren and Aversa in Arena. Then my team changed to OG Marth, Young Marth and Flame Emperor, which is the team I run until this day. I am building Seteth, for one day take OG Marth's spot.

I have no problems in promoting to Tier 21, though. My Team scores pretty well.

Edited by Diovani Bressan
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Same for me, I have a solid enough T20.5 scoring that I can easily make T21 in promo weeks, even with a dancer in my arena core.

My core nowadays is Duo!Micaiah, Aversa, Reyson and bonus unit.

It used to be Sheena and Nailah being in there, but with Micaiah being built I now have enough leeway to swap in Reyson again even though he has Sing as an assist. If a duo unit or legendary with a duel scoring is the bonus I can often stay T21, even when unmerged. Though I don’t care too much for that. 

I am slowly finishing L!Azura(+7) and once L!Micaiah comes out she’ll be a project. But for now, T21 consistent is just too much investment for too little reward conpared to T20.5

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Refine time!

Sealed Falchion (Helpful Chrom, Chrom, Lucina, Masked Marth): Effective against Dragon foes. At start of combat, if unit's HP <100% or if Bonus is active on unit, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +5 during combat.
At start of combat, if foes HP is greater than or equal to 75%, grants Atk/Spd/Def+5 to unit during combat and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

Purifying Breath (Nowi) Prf version of Lightning Breath+.
At start of combat, if units HP is greater than or equal to 50%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit during combat and neutralizes unit's penalties.

Tome of Favor (Oliver): If foe does not use Beast damage, grants Atk/Res+5 to unit during combat and retores 7 HP to unit after combat.
Unit can move to a space adjacent to a beast ally that can equip Sing or Dance.
If unit is within 3 spaces of a beast ally that can equip Sing or Dance, grant Atk/Res+5 to unit during combat.

Elena's Staff (Mist): Grants Res+3. Foe cannot counterattack. At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Spd-7 on nearest foes within 4 spaces through their next actions. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
At start of turn, inflict [Panic] on nearest foes within 4 spaces through their next actions. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts [Panic] on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.

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And my thoughts.

~It's... I think it might be better than the original Awakening Falchion refine in terms of raw numbers... yep, the original only had a +4 Spectrum Bond effect on top of dragon effectiveness and Renewal 3, this one has +10 Atk/Spd/Def and +5 Res on top of follow-up denial. I don't know if this is really the boost that the four units were wanting... but it's certainly a boost.

~Phew... it's just a Prf Lightning Breath. I'll take that over having to give yet another unit Distant Counter to replace the premium skill they already have, not naming any Faes.. The refine is... lackluster...

~...what the... this is the tome that's supposed to make me want to use Oliver? Pass. Not saying it's bad, but... this isn't enough to convince me.

~And here we have Slow, Fear, and Panic all in the same staff, as well as a wide closest-target Threaten of all 3 effects. I think this is the first time that Panic infliction is not linked to either a post-battle effect or HP comparisons too.

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ap1ah0ksyw361.png

For who wants a picture.

Nowi's is pretty decent, the slow on special is saddening. Big F you to mist that now gets her refine at the same time. Mist's refine is amazing though, but it is mist so.... 
Falchion is pretty good, only beaten by Alm's falchion imo.

Oliver's tome is amazingly in character, though not an amazing weapon per se. But pretty fun to add onto Eirforce as your eventual 6th unit. Since most Eirforce uses Reyson that is. Not an amazing weapon, but a fantastic in character weapon.

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28 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

Oliver's tome is amazingly in character, though not an amazing weapon per se. But pretty fun to add onto Eirforce as your eventual 6th unit. Since most Eirforce uses Reyson that is. Not an amazing weapon, but a fantastic in character weapon.

Oliver wins this round in my book just for the animation on his tome:

Spoiler

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Oliver wins this round in my book just for the animation on his tome:

  Hide contents

 

 

Yeah, that pretty much cannot be beaten. If only it was a brave weapon, we could have two Olivers after one another. No, that's possible if the second hit triggers a special. Amazing.

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Purifying Breath is nice. I suspect a lot of people were already using Lightning Breath/Aether/Steady Breath, so the refine makes it better and keeping the cooldown count +1 doesn't really matter. For this build.

Elena's Staff lets Mist be useful without relying on her stats, which is the only way a refine could let her be anything, so that's good. I do find it funny, and not sure if appropriate or inappropriate, that it actually strengthens an enemy Fallen Ike.

They actually just went the meme route with Tome of Favors. Kind of amazing, actually.

Sealed Falchion exists, I guess, and is better than before.

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Sealed Falchion's base effect is upgraded to be more lenient by also working if simply a field buff is active on the user which for its original wielder, is easy to get through Hone or Fortify Cavalry. As a whole, it benefits all of them, but I feel like it's caters to regular and paladin Chrom more with the follow-up denial. Lucina and masked Marth being able to get Atk/Spd+10 really helps as player phase units and the Def+10, Res+5, and follow-up denial are extras. The way I'm thinking it is with a usual Desperation build, they don't really care for the follow-up denial except in the first few rounds of combat to cover against foes who they cannot ORKO and do not want to take a follow-up attack from. Otherwise, the follow-up denial seems to cover more for Chrom's lower speed and not doing anything resistance seems more like it playing on Chrom's higher defense. Regardless, they can get a lot of stats, regular Chrom, Lucina, and masked Marth can run an Impact so as to make it that they can prevent follow-up attacks when they initiate against foes whose HP is < 75%, and all of its users are capable of running Lulls to which Lull Atk/Spd could make them deceptively bulky.

All things considered, Nowi's Purifying Breath is good, but I feel like the weapon itself is set up for failure. At base, it's a 14 Mt version of Lightning Breath with its slowed special trigger and reduced Mt compared to other weapons. None of the heroes with a prf -blade tome have slowed special trigger or reduced Mt and they can hit much higher attack than most units. Of the two, 2 Mt isn't going to ruin everything, so Purifying Breath could have had 16 Mt without a Mt refine. And neither is her having normal special trigger cooldown with a Distant Counter weapon at base. The unique refinement? That feels like what any of the units with prfs that only have Distant Counter on their weapon will get. Specifically, they will have another effect including Distant Counter. And you also have units with conditional Distant Counter or Close Counter who do not have much of a penalty either such as Osian's Vogue and Say'ri's Amatsu having a Killer effect and Distant Counter when their HP is >= 50%, Saber's Golden Dagger granting him Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 and Distant Counter when his special is charged, and Shinon's Double Bow's Close Counter being tied to its Spectrum Solo effect. Yes, she's a launch unit and she's also a trainee unit, so her BST is like a gen 2 melee infantry's, but that's pretty much it. Her stats aren't amazing, she needs to overhaul her skills, and the overall effects of unique refined Purifying Breath including had it had 16 Mt and no slowed her special cooldown isn't anything crazy. Altina, CYL Dimitri, Freya, berserk Ike, and Halloween F!Robin feel like exceptions to which two are mythics and one is a CYL unit. Even then, it's not like they all have amazing effects accompanying their Distant Counter. Hilariously enough, it's the CYL unit with the most grounded one as Moon Gradivus only has a breath effect. That's it. On the other hand, you have Altina with a dual phase Brave prf that has Distant Counter, Freya's Nightmare Horn has a stat boost and a speed check damage reduction on top of Distant Counter, berserk Ike's Chaos Ragnell reverses all stat penalties, and Halloween F!Robin's Moonless Breath can heal 30% of her HP when she activates a special in combat and is within 2 spaces of an ally. Moonless Breath I would also consider as being relatively grounded since it relies on positioning and while it gives her good sustain, it's not as wild as Ragnell-Alondite, Nightmare Horn being like a non-Distant Counter prf, but with Distant Counter, or berserk Ike being able to reverse stat debuffs and swing a lot of stats in his favor. In the future where if and when units with Distant Counter weapons are part of weapon updates, they might be exceptions too. They're probably not going to gain some kind of "penalty" when refining their weapons. Nobody would be pleased about that, especially for Ike and vanguard Ike who at that point might be better off being able to learn Chaos Ragnell instead. Once again, it's overall good, but it having those kinds of penalties when other weapons don't is disappointing. At the very least, it should have had 16 Mt. It's just 2 points of attack -- not that big of a deal.

So that's what Elena's Staff does. Pretty awesome, but a shame that Mist is a 5* exclusive and gen 1 unit, so she's not only rare, but one of the few who were sometimes scorned for their existence. Mist will be a great ally to Arvis, F!Corrin, Gunnthra, Matthew, CYL Micaiah, Saias, Saizo, Ursula, and any dagger unit using Broadleaf Fan. What I find interesting is how it can horribly backfire against berserk Ike. The base effect can result in berserk Ike gaining a net Atk/Spd+7 through Chaos Ragnell.

Oliver's Tome of Favors is very unique and it gives me high hopes that Tormod could have his affinity with the laguz reflected through his tome if not a personal passive. As noted, it might not be the greatest of things, but it certainly is in character and grants Oliver a niche that nobody can do. Him being a non-beast and non-dragon ally can mess with beasts transforming, but the first thing that came to my mind is how wild an Aether Raids defense team could work with Oliver can warp to wherever a beast refresh unit is. The day when we get a beast mythic with Sing or Dance shall be interesting.

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2 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Stop building in wrathful or dazzling without a choice. You stand to invalidate half of all premium skill inheritance every single time.

 Healers are fifth-class citizens. What do you expect? Kindness in a gacha game? Foolishness.

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9 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Stop building in wrathful or dazzling without a choice. You stand to invalidate half of all premium skill inheritance every single time.

Better alternative would be to make Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff avilable on a demote. Or at least on a grail unit. Could have been a good reason for Erimiya to exist.

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I am fine with Nowi's Prf. I wish it was a 16 night weapon without special cooldown penalty, but at least she didnt get Effied. The refinement will be useful in AR.

Not much to say about the others. Mist looks pretty useful, though.

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Better alternative would be to make Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff avilable on a demote. Or at least on a grail unit. Could have been a good reason for Erimiya to exist.

Better alternative would be having two option for staff refinements: one with Wrathful and other with Dazzling, alongside the refinement effect they are getting. And not these effects on the base weapon.

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1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I am fine with Nowi's Prf. I wish it was a 16 night weapon without special cooldown penalty, but at least she didnt get Effied. The refinement will be useful in AR.

Not much to say about the others. Mist looks pretty useful, though.

Better alternative would be having two option for staff refinements: one with Wrathful and other with Dazzling, alongside the refinement effect they are getting. And not these effects on the base weapon.

How would that be a better option? Making Wrathful and Dazzling freely available would eradicate that issue entirely along with helping all the staff users who don't have their own refine yet.

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6 hours ago, Xenomata said:

~Phew... it's just a Prf Lightning Breath. I'll take that over having to give yet another unit Distant Counter to replace the premium skill they already have, not naming any Faes.. The refine is... lackluster...

 

Seems pretty good in my opinion. Neutralizing penalties is pretty huge, allowing her to get stat advantage through bonuses without fear of being Panicked in Aether Raids.

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