General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

邪惡的曲弓, either "Wicked Song Bow" or "Wicked Wrong Bow", depending on the pronunciation of 曲. Pronounced as qǔ, it means "song" or "music". Pronounced as qū, it means "bent" or "wrong".

In Japanese, 曲 has meanings derived from both of the Chinese meanings. When pronounced as kyoku, it means "song" or "music", but also "fun", "interest", and "pleasure". Pronounced as maga, it means "evil" or "calamity".

So the Chinese translation is technically also incorrect despite using the same characters, and I stand by my statement that it should have been translated as "Lewd Thoughts Bow", which isn't a literal translation, but has the right meaning.

 

And yes, I did change my game's language to Chinese just to check (and now I'm super lost because despite being Chinese, I'm better at reading Japanese due to constant exposure).

I'd like to point out that 曲弓 may just be referring to Nina's bow being a recurve bow (反曲弓 in Chinese):

Edited February 4, 2021 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[redlight]

Not a fan of Audhulma since Joshua is a bit too balanced, but it's better than simply boosting attack/speed like older refines.

[Kaden]

And Meisterhardt was an instant refine. No reason not to pick that up for the still hilariously inexplicable +7 Meisterhardt I have. Initially, I read the unique refinement wrong and thought it said his HP >= 50%. It would have worked with his default Vantage shtick, but there would have been a very narrow range between <= 75% HP and >= 50% HP. Glad I re-read it and it's not his HP, but his foe's.

Flying Nino's unique refined Giga Excalibur is simple and effective.

Candied Dagger rant that nobody wants to read in spoilers.

Spoiler

It also reminds me about Gaius and how sad his condition in. Almost all gen 2 units and beyond with prfs that do not have a Killer effect have a stat boost. The only exceptions I can think of are Quan, Shiro, and Siegbert for some reason and recent healers with prf staves. As the CYL1 weapon update and Elise has shown us, these units get to keep their stat boosts or are given them in the case of healers without prf staves. Gaius is a unit without prf and upon receiving one, can only have a stat boost if he chooses to not use the unique refinement of his dagger. By default, Gaius is behind 5 points in speed compared to flying Nino; his 36 base neutral to hers 38 base neutral plus Giga Excalibur's Spd+3. Because Darting Blow 3 would have been too much for him, he makes up 4 points with Candied Dagger's Darting Blow 2. They're both player phase units and getting hit by Chill Spd effects isn't great, but at least for flying Nino, she can try for a Counter, Vantage build by abusing the ability to deal damage. Gaius only gets that if his foe is at full health with his unique refinement and he's not going to get anywhere with dealing 7 damage and his 29 base neutral attack. Flying Nino already deals 8 damage from her 20% speed scaling that works on both phases without any speed boosts to which her unique refinement grants her Atk/Spd+4 if she's within 2 spaces of an ally which bumps her up to being able to deal 9 damage. Picking battles means you could Counter, Vantage a foe who is so close to being dead rather than trying to blast through a foe's entire HP.

Point is: Gaius's Candied Dagger sucks and is increasingly looking more and more of a joke of weapon than it was when it was available. Candied Dagger's: "If unit initiates combat, grants Spd+4 and boosts damage by 10% of unit's Spd during combat", to refined Giga Excalibur's: "Grants Spd+3. Deals damage = 20% of unit's Spd during combat." 10% to 25% scaling is low and considering legendary Alm and legendary Celica targeting defense and resistance, respectively, or CYL Alm and legendary Dimitri dealing damage based on their attack, but it is damage dealt and 10% is utter dogshit. It looked bad compared to Luna Arc, it looked worse when Gangrel was introduced, and it looks even worse with Giga Excalibur now. Gangrel falls apart against units who can neutralize their penalties, but y'know what he has and gets? His offenses are a bit higher and he gets Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 instead of only Spd+4. That is to say, Gangrel's Levin Dagger can boost his attack to let him do even more damage on top of the damage deal scaled off of his resistance which unsurprisingly, Levin Dagger has a stat boost because Gangrel's recent unit who came with a prf; Candied Dagger should have had Swift Sparrow 2 and the pitiful speed scaling. Whatever, rant over.

If Giga Excalibur points to how Karla's Vassal's Blade, Naesala's Raven King Beak, and I guess New Year's Kaden's Refreshed Fang, New Year's Keaton's Resolved Fang, New Year's Lethe's Guardian Fang, and New Year's Selkie's New Foxkit Fang will have their damage dealt equal to the difference of the stat check and up to 7 damage effect improved, then Karla's going to become very dangerous if Vassal's Blade and the others end up going from that effect to deals damage = 20% of unit's X stat. By default, Karla would deal 8 damage from 20% of her 40 base neutral speed. It should have been noted, but that's is like a Moonbow per hit. Vassal's Blade's Killer effect gives her a lot of flexibility where with her default Wrath or Time's Pulse, she can have charged 2 cooldown specials, and with both, she can have charged 3 cooldown specials. That means a lot of damage dealt with Moonbow, Ruptured Sky, default Draconic Aura, or Luna or she can focus on healing with Noontime or Sol. Alternatively, because she is dealing about 8 damage per hit, run a Shield Pulse build even better and forgo having a damage special for damage reduction. We don't have an all-ranges inheritable defensive special and we don't have a Special Spiral version of Shield Pulse which Shield Pulse 4 could do, but the main advantage of a defensive special over stat check damage reduction skills is that it works against Deadeye, Twin Blades, or other effects that disables non-special damage reduction effects. Of course, there is the usual Desperation which becomes stronger since her damage dealt would be more consistent.

The scarier thing is that's only considering the base effect -- of it being improved. The unique refinement is still left in the air. For all we know, she could end up with Spurn or just the damage reduction part of it. If so, damage reduction shenanigans would be fun with a Shield Pulse build. She gets damage from the base effect lessening the need for a damage special, she takes reduced damage in general with a speed check damage reduction effect, and Aegis/Pavise and Shield Pulse would cover against Dead Eye or Twin Blades on top of further reducing the damage she takes against the applicable foe to which player phase, Pavise would work against a Close Counter unit since it takes into considering the distance from the unit and not the foe's range.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Kaden

[Kaden]

2 hours ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

Joshua's refine is ok in a vaccum, but compared to units with busted personal skills like L!Dimitri and Larcei, its kinda lacking. 

It is in the air sometimes with weapon updates, but recent or new units are made to sell, especially legendary and mythic units, so they do get wacky bullshit. That isn't to say a 3*, 4*, or grail unit can't get crazy things like Arden, Arvis, Barst, Legion, Saias, Seliph with Tyrfing, the Whitewing Sisters among others have shown us or Boey surprising us with almost Close Counter or the fun, meme-y Tome of Favors Olivier got. I would also count the simple and effective, they got Lull Atk/Def 3 despite being non-5* units for Berkut and Hawkeye. Not including Eliwood with Blazing Durandal or Seliph with Divine Tyrfing since by luck they were given the ability to wield those weapons.

Anyway, with Joshua, his unique refinement is in line with the weapons of Berkut's Dark Royal Spear, the Krises's Blade/Spear of Shadow, Shannan's Balmung, and Sheena's unique refined Crimson Axe. Also, CYL Hector's unique refinement for Maltet, but unique refined Maltet is a monster. The if foe initiates or if foe's HP = 100% effects, grants stats or inflicts stats on foe and does another effect which some of these units get through their unique refinement. Audhulma's unique refinement is the closest to Sheena's unique refined Crimson Axe where it essentially gives the user a tier 4 stance with Joshua getting Spectrum Stance 3 to Sheena's almost since apparently her resistance is not important. So, having Distant Counter is fine since they will be able to get stats, something, from their weapon. With unique refined Audhulma, Joshua's closest comparison would be M!Kris where he trades penalty neutralization for Guard. Whichever is the two is more important is up to the player and they can have both at the cost of something; Joshua can have partial penalty neutralization with a Bond 4, but that comes at dealing with strict positioning and M!Kris can have Guard in return for not using his default Spurn and having to deal with a much stricter condition of >= 80% HP compared to enemy phase or foe's HP is 100%.

Joshua is easier to get since he's a grail unit and in terms of raw defenses, he wins with 30/32 base neutral defenses to M!Kris's 30/25 due to Audhulma's Res+5. With their weapon's effects active, Joshua has 1 less defense, but 4 more resistance at 34/37 defenses to M!Kris's effective 35/30 since Blade of Shadow inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-5. Offensively, Joshua's much worse with his 31/35 base neutral offenses to M!Kris's 37/40. Speed in particular. That said, if you invest in him, he should be okay or at least be able to avoid doubles most of the time.

I do remember seeing Joshua built with Distant Counter given his balanced defenses through Audhulma. The unique refinement improves on that by giving him a tier 4 Spectrum Stance or Spectrum Stance and Guard. It also kind of works with his default kit of use Windsweep to land a cheap shot and then have Moonbow or an inherited Iceberg or Luna on counter against melee units to which Close Def would cover for him. Weird and not that reliable, but back then he was reliant on his raw stats and anything to boost his speed like Phantom Speed for the Windsweep effect and hitting anyone would charge their special. Now, unique refined Audhulma can make it easier for him to pass Windsweep's check and deal a bit more damage if he hits a melee foe at full HP and then on enemy phase, have Atk/Spd+4 and Def/Res+10 against a melee foe. In both cases, Guard would cover for him so that he doesn't accidentally end up eating a special.

Edit: I forgot to edit this into my previous post... Thought that someone else would have posted by now... Yay, idiot moments.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Kaden

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I'd like to point out that 曲弓 may just be referring to Nina's bow being a recurve bow (反曲弓 in Chinese):

It would be odd to do that because the 反 is the "re-" part of "recurve". 反 means "backward" or "reverse", and a recurve bow is a bow that curves the opposite direction at the tips.

Without it, it would just be a curved bow, which is what a bow normally is.

 

The localized names in English and Chinese both make enough sense if translated out of the context of the weapon's effect and Nina's character, but they don't make sense in context.

Sure, it doesn't help that 曲 being used to mean "enjoyment" in Japanese seems to be rare (I've never seen it used that way personally).

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It would be odd to do that because the 反 is the "re-" part of "recurve". 反 means "backward" or "reverse", and a recurve bow is a bow that curves the opposite direction at the tips.

Without it, it would just be a curved bow, which is what a bow normally is.

 

The localized names in English and Chinese both make enough sense if translated out of the context of the weapon's effect and Nina's character, but they don't make sense in context.

Sure, it doesn't help that 曲 being used to mean "enjoyment" in Japanese seems to be rare (I've never seen it used that way personally).

The term 反曲弓 doesn't even exist in Japanese; they just say recurve bow in "English". 曲 can also mean indecent when read as "kuse" I guess, but I'd also buy that they borrowed the Chinese term without being too rigid about it. Could be both meanings at once, even, but it reads slightly weird to me to have it be adjective-adjective-noun instead of just 邪な being the adjective and 曲弓 being a compound noun.

Edited February 4, 2021 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

The term 反曲弓 doesn't even exist in Japanese; they just say recurve bow in "English".

All the more reason why it wouldn't refer to a recurve bow.

Even if they had borrowed the word from Chinese (which would not be out of the question), removing the 反 makes absolutely no sense because that's the part that distinguishes a recurve bow from any other type of bow.

 

13 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Could be both meanings at once, even, but it reads slightly weird to me to have it be adjective-adjective-noun instead of just 邪な being the adjective and 曲弓 being a compound noun.

It's adjective-noun-noun, though.

邪な is an adjective meaning "evil" or "wicked". 曲 is a noun meaning "enjoyment", "interest", or "pleasure". 弓 is a noun meaning "bow".

It's still weird that there's no particle between the two nouns, but the construction still makes the most sense when interpreted this way. This interpretation also makes more sense when compared to some of the other weapons with odd name constructions, like Florina's Lance and Elise's Staff (not an exhaustive list). These weapons in Japanese have two nouns jammed together that don't really seem like they should be jammed together (granted, instead of an adjective in the initial spot, they have the character's name as a possessive, though possessive nouns technically function as adjectives).

Florina's Lance is "Florina's Oath-Lance" if translated with the two adjacent nouns interpreted as a compound noun, and Elise's Staff is "Elise's Youth-Staff". Both compound nouns are just plain weird. In Elise's case, you can interpret the first noun as an adjective as "Elise's Young Staff", but the word 幼 for "young" specifically refers to living things and isn't used for objects like staves (much like how in English you'd differentiate between "young" for living things and "new" for objects). These names make somewhat more sense if interpreted as "Lance of Florina's Oath" and "Staff of Elise's Youth".

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

All the more reason why it wouldn't refer to a recurve bow.

Even if they had borrowed the word from Chinese (which would not be out of the question), removing the 反 makes absolutely no sense because that's the part that distinguishes a recurve bow from any other type of bow.

 

It's adjective-noun-noun, though.

邪な is an adjective meaning "evil" or "wicked". 曲 is a noun meaning "enjoyment", "interest", or "pleasure". 弓 is a noun meaning "bow".

It's still weird that there's no particle between the two nouns, but the construction still makes the most sense when interpreted this way. This interpretation also makes more sense when compared to some of the other weapons with odd name constructions, like Florina's Lance and Elise's Staff (not an exhaustive list). These weapons in Japanese have two nouns jammed together that don't really seem like they should be jammed together (granted, instead of an adjective in the initial spot, they have the character's name as a possessive, though possessive nouns technically function as adjectives).

Florina's Lance is "Florina's Oath-Lance" if translated with the two adjacent nouns interpreted as a compound noun, and Elise's Staff is "Elise's Youth-Staff". Both compound nouns are just plain weird. In Elise's case, you can interpret the first noun as an adjective as "Elise's Young Staff", but the word 幼 for "young" specifically refers to living things and isn't used for objects like staves (much like how in English you'd differentiate between "young" for living things and "new" for objects). These names make somewhat more sense if interpreted as "Lance of Florina's Oath" and "Staff of Elise's Youth".

Apparently I was wrong earlier and they do actually have 反曲弓 in Japanese. I looked around and saw they do write it that way in some books and product descriptions of actual recurve bows. 曲弓 is also apparently a real thing, and it's basically a recurve bow but the tips don't curve forward (so halfway between a regular bow and a recurve kinda).

Still though, I honestly don't think reading 曲 as an individual kanji is bearing much fruit here. I also have yet to see anyone use it to mean pleasure.

I've never really thought very hard about these weapon names honestly, but they tend to describe the user instead of the weapon I guess. Just slapped on there to sound cool.

[Flying Shogi]

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

So the Chinese translation is technically also incorrect despite using the same characters, and I stand by my statement that it should have been translated as "Lewd Thoughts Bow", which isn't a literal translation, but has the right meaning.

I'm behind this given Nina's character. Instead of 曲, maybe they could have used 歪 as it does have "kink" as one of its definitions.  

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And yes, I did change my game's language to Chinese just to check (and now I'm super lost because despite being Chinese, I'm better at reading Japanese due to constant exposure).

Are you constantly consuming Japanese material proactively or do you work/live in a Japanese speaking environment(if you don't mind me asking)?

Edited February 4, 2021 by Flying Shogi

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Flying Shogi said:

Are you constantly consuming Japanese material proactively or do you work/live in a Japanese speaking environment(if you don't mind me asking)?

The former. Almost all of the video games I've played in the past 14 years or so have been in Japanese. The few exceptions have been MMOs, Nioh, and games on friends' consoles when I'm hanging out at their places. When looking for resources or guides, I typically search in both English and Japanese, which is extremely helpful for niche titles and games with no Western release (or a delayed Western release).

And then there's the copious amounts of anime that I consume.

[Diovani Bressan]

The refinements this month are pretty nice, but nothing that amazing in my opinion.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So who do we think is up next on weapon refines?

 

I'm thinking Hector, Lyon, Sothe, and L'Arachel.

[Othin]

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

So who do we think is up next on weapon refines?

 

I'm thinking Hector, Lyon, Sothe, and L'Arachel.

As much as I'd love that lineup, that's zero rare Book 2 units and two common ones, which seems unlikely.

I'd be happy if we can finally get even one common Book 2 unit. Or a common staff. Soleil and Sakura seem like the most likely candidates for each of those spots to me.

For a late Book 2 unit, I could see us getting one of the Muspell generals.

[NSSKG151]

I'm guessing Ayra, Ishtar, Lyon and one of Sothe or Helbindi. That's assuming they are still not giving refines to Gen 1 dancers and 3/4 star staff units.

Edited February 27, 2021 by NSSKG151

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'm really hoping they don't ignore Gen 1 dancer and staff units, but they probably are. Sigh. I'm hoping for Hector, Ninian, Lyon, and...eh, someone.

[Ice Dragon]

At the very least, I think they'll give Gen 1 5-star dancers refines soon, just like how they've started giving Gen 1 5-star staff units refines.

[Othin]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the very least, I think they'll give Gen 1 5-star dancers refines soon, just like how they've started giving Gen 1 5-star staff units refines.

Yeah, that sounds plausible. And then Gen 2 5-star dancers after that.

Like the Gen 1 common healers, Olivia could be waiting a while, though.

[Sayyyaka]

It'd be cool if they knocked out Lachesis & Nanna in one shot with an "Earth Staff" or something.

I'm guessing Canas still has another year to go.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the very least, I think they'll give Gen 1 5-star dancers refines soon, just like how they've started giving Gen 1 5-star staff units refines.

Ninian really needs it. I remember a time when I really wanted Ninian, because a unit that was both a dragon and a dancer was novel, by the time I actually got her, she was really underwhelimng.

[Diovani Bressan]

Lyon's refinement is already a guaranteed one, since that leaked in the music compilation video...

I wish we would start with Book 2 4* refinements already...

I think we could see Ishtar and Karla in this update...

There are Ayra from Book 1 as well, that is not a DC weapon user, Healer or Dancer. Dire Thunder users could get a refinement too, followed by having B Duel Cavalry 4 in the next new heroes banner.

[Tybrosion]

Well, we've got ourselves a surprise in this next batch for Ver. 5.3.0:

Ayra: Astra's Wielder, Ayra's Blade
Nowi: Eternal Witch, Grimoire
Lyon: Shadow Prince, Naglfar
L'Arachel: Princess of Light, Ivaldi
Ishtar: Thunder Goddess, Mjolnir

Also, they're finally starting on the Book II 3*-4*s so I better see Soleil next time, IS.

[Humanoid]

Good that a seasonal is in, but baffling that it's a seasonal that has a Prf instead of one with a crappy generic weapon.

[Florete]

11 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Good that a seasonal is in, but baffling that it's a seasonal that has a Prf instead of one with a crappy generic weapon.

It might be notable that Halloween Nowi was the first non-dancer seasonal to have a Prf.

[Humanoid]

Hmm, didn't realise it took them that long. So once again it's a case of the rich getting richer I guess, just like CYL units consistently getting the best refines.

[Tybrosion]

20 minutes ago, Florete said:

It might be notable that Halloween Nowi was the first non-dancer seasonal to have a Prf.

Yeah, it seems like they’re just going to stick with seasonals that already had a Prf to begin. So, the next ones up should be bunny Sharena and bunny Catria because Berserk Armads sure isn’t getting a refine when regular Armads is still without one.

7 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Hmm, didn't realise it took them that long. So once again it's a case of the rich getting richer I guess, just like CYL units consistently getting the best refines.

Grimoire literally just allows Nowi to warp to an ally that’s within two spaces (and Nowi’s HP needs to be at or above 50% too). That is all that Prf does without a refine. 

Meanwhile, that is just one of the effects on Brave Edelgard’s Flower Hauteclere (but with the HP threshold being “at or above 25%” instead).