General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Tybrosion]

18 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

EDIT: @Othin @Naoshi I thought normal Ephraim got a refine a long time ago though. He was like one of the first.

He's there because he can get Flame Siegmund, and Flame Siegmund hasn't gotten a refine yet.

[Othin]

29 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Obviously I have nothing to back this up other than a hunch, but I wonder if 3-4 star healers and dancers will be open to getting refines if and only if Ethlyn and Young Azura get refines as well. Heroes is slowly giving all of their grail units prf weapons and refines, and they did eventually get to the DC ones even if it took a while. But they will have to deal with Ethlyn and Young Azura eventually. If those two aren't skipped, maybe it's a sign that the rest will follow?

EDIT: @Othin @Naoshi I thought normal Ephraim got a refine a long time ago though. He was like one of the first.

I'm sure they'll all get refines eventually, but I could see them holding off on Ethlyn and Dream Azura if their spot in the grail cycle comes up before they're ready to start that.

And yeah, Ephraim confused me at first too. He doesn't really count, but he's still worth noting.

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I thought normal Ephraim got a refine a long time ago though. He was like one of the first.

He is still in the Book 1 group because of Flame Siegmund, Legendary's Ephraim weapon.

He has access to that through Weapon Evolution, so once Legendary Ephraim gets his refinement OG Ephraim will have access to it as well.

[GuiltyLove]

[Rinco]

Only Sanaki as disappointing on this batch.
Finn seems like the winner, but Laeg and Ares have solid refines and Maribelle's is kinda unique and interesting

[Othin]

Maribelle's is hilarious. Double down on advantage, and turn disadvantageous fights into neutral ones!

[Jave]

Finn is legit amazing. I might start using him now.

[Xenomata]

• Welp, so much for base Mystetainn. Only reason to run it on Eldigan now is for double Fury strats, maybe triple Fury if and when we get a Fury seal. And of course Ares just gets a straight upgrade.
• Solid refine for Finn. I'm a little stuck on the fact that Finn's base stats are... servicable at best though.
• Laegjarn looks good on paper. I don't know how high the stat bonus could go before though... weird to cap it at just 10, but whatever at least she can benefit from her own bonuses too.
• ...I'm not sold on this Trilemma++ staff to be honest. It could be good, what do I know, but I feel like I'd get a bigger bang for my buck by using the Flash+ I already gave Maribelle...
• Completely drop the Spd boosts in favor of Res...? I don't think any other weapon refine has done that before. Not convincing me to use Bride Sanaki though.

Eh... I'm personally not fully sold on the refine for Maribelle, I was never interested in Sanaki in the first place, and Finn is... well, I'm not saying his refine is bad, I'm saying Finn himself is a little too ehh for me to care that much. Laegyarn getting NFU is good, and Dark Mystletainn... well, what is there to say? It was already a good weapon, and now it's even better. Maybe I'll finally start using Ares again, and I finally have something to give Eldigan.

[Othin]

5 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

• Welp, so much for base Mystetainn. Only reason to run it on Eldigan now is for double Fury strats, maybe triple Fury if and when we get a Fury seal. And of course Ares just gets a straight upgrade.
• Solid refine for Finn. I'm a little stuck on the fact that Finn's base stats are... servicable at best though.
• Laegjarn looks good on paper. I don't know how high the stat bonus could go before though... weird to cap it at just 10, but whatever at least she can benefit from her own bonuses too.
• ...I'm not sold on this Trilemma++ staff to be honest. It could be good, what do I know, but I feel like I'd get a bigger bang for my buck by using the Flash+ I already gave Maribelle...
• Completely drop the Spd boosts in favor of Res...? I don't think any other weapon refine has done that before. Not convincing me to use Bride Sanaki though.

Eh... I'm personally not fully sold on the refine for Maribelle, I was never interested in Sanaki in the first place, and Finn is... well, I'm not saying his refine is bad, I'm saying Finn himself is a little too ehh for me to care that much. Laegyarn getting NFU is good, and Dark Mystletainn... well, what is there to say? It was already a good weapon, and now it's even better. Maybe I'll finally start using Ares again, and I finally have something to give Eldigan.

Against a foe with +7 to all stats, regular Niu gives +14, which is the same as the total for upgraded Niu. Original could go higher through shenanigans but arranging that in a practical situation does not seem practical.

Upgraded Niu can give +14 to all stats with +6/6/6/7 bonuses on the user (or less, if the foe has any bonuses), which seems a lot easier to arrange.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Othin

[Xenomata]

8 minutes ago, Othin said:

Against a foe with +7 to all stats, regular Niu gives +14, which is the same as the total for upgraded Niu. Original could go higher through shenanigans but arranging that in a practical situation does not seem practical.

Upgraded Niu can give +14 to all stats with +6/6/6/7 bonuses on the user (or less, if the foe has any bonuses), which seems a lot easier to arrange.

Yeah that's far easier. LegAzura is prob the easiest path to max bonuses in that scenario.

[Diovani Bressan]

Níu's refinement is actually pretty nice. Its easier for her to get all those in-combat stats now.

[Ice Dragon]

Loyalty Spear

Base effect is the Meister effect with Ninja stats, granting +4 Spd at the cost of -4 Def/Res.

Refine effect is Lull Atk/Def, but instead of -3 Atk/Def, it's -4 Atk/Spd/Def, with the condition that Finn's HP is 25% or higher.

I was not expecting to see a Meister Ninja weapon. Amazing weapon, especially for a Grail unit, and it goes perfectly with the skills that I got on my Forma copy back in the day (Swift Sparrow 3 and Lull Spd/Def 3).

However, getting the Meister effect instead of just the Brave effect seems like kind of a waste when he doesn't get any defensive boosts after all of the stat effects are accounted for. His Def is only average, and his Res is pretty bad, so fighting on enemy phase isn't exactly a great idea.

Punishment Staff

Base effect is Wrathful Staff, Trilemma, and Swift Sparrow 2.

Refine effect is a 2-range Joint Hone Atk [6] and Joint Hone Cancel Affinity.

Exactly what I predicted, but with a Hone instead of a Drive. Much better and fixes the fact that Trilemma is absolute garbage without Cancel Affinity.

Dark Mystletainn

Base effect is unchanged, being the Slaying effect and Special Spiral.

Refine effect grants +5 Atk/Def and a 7-damage Wo Dao effect with a Stance condition or if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher. It also grants a 7-damage Wo Dao effect if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher for AoE Specials.

So yeah, Wo Dao and the obligatory Atk/Def boost, but no other effect, which means he's still stuck using Quick Riposte or a Pulse effect to actually charge his first Special.

I mean, yeah, it's good, but it's also a bit less than I'd have liked. I guess he is a 4-star unit, though.

Niu

Base effect is the same effect as before, but now includes Laegjarn's own bonuses on top of the opponent's and is only 40% instead of 50% and has a hard cap of +10 to each stat. The visible +3 Spd is unchanged.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats and Null Follow-Up if Laegjarn's HP is 25% or higher.

The stat boost from bonuses is basically just the same as before, but more consistent since you have more control over Laegjarn's bonuses. You could previously theoretically get +14 to all stats if the opponent had +7 to all of their stats, but realistically, it would really be capped at +12. With the refined effect, you now only need a total of 20 points of bonuses between Laegjarn and her target to get the same +12, which is much easier to pull off, and you can reach +14 with 25 total points of bonuses.

Null Follow-Up is the real refine effect here. More Windsweep candidates is always nice, but this also makes Dive-Bomb a much more viable build for her.

Nifl Frostflowers

Base effect has been completely replaced, giving +7 Atk and +5 Res if there is an ally within 3 spaces and an additional +2 Atk if there is a second ally within 3 spaces. The visible +3 Atk is unchanged.

Refine effect gives another +5 Atk/Res and an additional boost to Atk equal to the highest Atk bonus on an ally within 2 spaces (basically Sieglinde's refine effect, but only for Atk), both effects if the opponent's HP is 50% or higher.

Weird. Basically, as long as there are 2 allies within 3 spaces of her and 1 ally with a +6 bonus to Atk within 2 spaces of her, she gets +20 Atk and +10 Res when attacking a high-HP opponent.

The massive Atk bonus is obviously quite welcome, as it's basically Gronnblade, but doesn't get neutered by Lull effects. However, it's a bit disappointing that they completely got rid of the Spd boost, considering her Spd stat is not completely unusable at base 30.

Regardless, 73 Atk at base without skills is still pretty good, as you can easily get that up to 85 Atk with double Death Blow, which is enough to one-hit kill most things that don't have percentage damage reduction.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Ice Dragon

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'm impressed with Finn's refine, although I wish there was a little more defense added to it. But, still, that's a good weapon he has! I hope Canas is treated just as well.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

Laegjarn looks good on paper. I don't know how high the stat bonus could go before though... weird to cap it at just 10, but whatever at least she can benefit from her own bonuses too.

There was no cap before, so if the enemy had all stat +6, she can get all stat +12. Pretty disappointing they put a cap on it and reduced the percentage. It honestly would not even be broken if they boost it back up to 50% and removed the cap, considering all the more powerful stuff being released lately.

[Ice Dragon]

Some more thoughts, I guess:

It's really hard to pick a winner with so many good refines this time around, but if I had to choose only one, it'd be Maribelle's. First off, it's a parasol. But, Punishment Staff's effect is probably one of the best offensive support effects in the game, as it fully nullifies your weapon triangle disadvantages while turning your advantages into super advantages. I can see it being a pretty good staff pick for Aether Raids defense, as well, as it can help with wallbreaking. And the Joint Hone Up Atk is just icing on the cake.

Also seems like a decent choice to run with a green nuke against Save balls that use Brave Hector or Winter Hilda as the Far Save tank.

Loyalty Spear is probably the next best in my opinion, though the lack of any boost to Fin's Def leaves me a bit apprehensive, as it still leaves him with only 75 single-hit physical bulk and a pretty pathetic 61 single-hit magical bulk before passive skills and merges, though nullifying the opponent's Atk bonuses does help a little. As much as I'd like to run Lull Spd/Def on him, I still fear for his ability to stay alive without Desperation.

Niu is close behind. As I previously mentioned, the change in the way the bonus stats are calculated isn't a particularly big deal. Null Follow-Up is a big deal, though, especially on a flier. I really wish Dive-Bomb were easier to get my hands on. Wyvern Flight also seems like a good option for her if you want to trade sustain for even more punching power. And then there's S/D Near Trace for mobility and even more Spd.

I wish they'd start putting tier 3 Catch skills on 4-star units so that I could give Laegjarn Atk/Spd Catch 4 and Spd/Def Rein from a single Claude instead of two.

I have to put Nifl Frostflowers above Dark Mystletainn. +20 Atk, albeit with some really odd positioning requirements, is not something to take lightly. Nifl Frostflowers with its maximum Atk bonus (14+3+5+2+2+5+6) actually has the exact same total Atk as Gronnblade+ with its maximum Atk bonus (13+24) (using +6 as the maximum field bonus because +7 is not consistent). Additional analysis of the weapon is in my previous post, so I won't repeat it here.

Dark Mystletainn is good, but that's mostly just because its base effect was good. The refine is literally just +12 Atk and +5 Def. And again, while I think this is the least exciting of this batch, all of the refines this time are good; this one just happens to be overshadowed by the others.

 

35 minutes ago, XRay said:

There was no cap before, so if the enemy had all stat +6, she can get all stat +12. Pretty disappointing they put a cap on it and reduced the percentage. It honestly would not even be broken if they boost it back up to 50% and removed the cap, considering all the more powerful stuff being released lately.

They reduced the percentage because it now counts both the opponent's bonuses and her own instead of just the opponent's. The cap is there because without it, she would be able to reach +19 to all stats if both she and her opponent had +6 to all stats, and that's before the additional +4 from the second effect.

Yes, there's a lot of really strong things being released nowadays. No, I don't think that justifies letting Laegjarn get +23 to all of her stats.

The cap is lower than the previous maximum to account for the second effect. She can now reach +13 to all stats with no input from the opponent and +14 to all stats if the opponent has any bonus at all.

Either way, Null Follow-Up is the part of the refine that actually matters.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes, there's a lot of really strong things being released nowadays. No, I don't think that justifies letting Laegjarn get +23 to all of her stats.

All stat+23 is hardly broken, and as an older unit, she quite frankly needs it to be and stay competitive, cause other than Null Follow-Up, stat boots is all she has and that is her primary way of staying competitive. Newer units have a variety of effects to remain competitive, and their stat boost is just the cherry on top, not something that makes or breaks them.

[Ice Dragon]

23 minutes ago, XRay said:

All stat+23 is hardly broken, and as an older unit, she quite frankly needs it to be and stay competitive, cause other than Null Follow-Up, stat boots is all she has and that is her primary way of staying competitive. Newer units have a variety of effects to remain competitive, and their stat boost is just the cherry on top, not something that makes or breaks them.

No, she doesn't need it.

Compared to modern melee fliers, she's behind by only 10 points of base stats.

The most recent Null Follow-Up weapons are

• Summer Freyja's Brightmare Horn, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, Dodge, and the offensive half of Null Follow-Up.
• Legendary Byleth's Professorial Text, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, Null Follow-Up, and Drive Null Follow-Up.
• Legendary Claude's Failnaught, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, and Null Follow-Up.
• Selena's Tome of Storms, which has +3 Spd, +5 to Atk/Spd, and Null Follow-Up.

Even if I generously estimate the Slaying effect to be worth 10 points of stats (upgrading Moonbow to Luna is 10 additional damage against an opponent with 50 Def), Dodge to be worth 20 points of stats (estimating Dodge to be worth approximately 10 Def/Res on average), and half of Null Follow-Up to be worth the same as the full Null Follow-Up, Brightmare Horn is still only worth 50 points of stats plus Null Follow-Up.

Combining those 50 points with the 10 points needed to catch up to modern units and subtracting the 3 points of visible Spd on the weapon, Laegjarn needs 14 points per non-HP stat to be caught up with some of the absolute best units that we currently have. And what do you know, her weapon happens to give 14 points per non-HP stat (this was not pre-planned; the estimates above came first).

And since I'm pretty sure I've overestimated Brightmare Horn's worth, and considering Professorial Text and Failnaught are almost pure stats and come nowhere near the estimated 50 points of stats that Brightmare Horn comes up to, I'd say Niu's cap could even be considered too high, but lowering the cap was not an option due to the fact that the weapon could previously give 14 points per stat before the refine.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, she doesn't need it.

Compared to modern melee fliers, she's behind by only 10 points of base stats.

The most recent Null Follow-Up weapons are

• Summer Freyja's Brightmare Horn, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, Dodge, and the offensive half of Null Follow-Up.
• Legendary Byleth's Professorial Text, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, Null Follow-Up, and Drive Null Follow-Up.
• Legendary Claude's Failnaught, which has the Slaying effect, +5 to all stats, and Null Follow-Up.
• Selena's Tome of Storms, which has +3 Spd, +5 to Atk/Spd, and Null Follow-Up.

Even if I generously estimate the Slaying effect to be worth 10 points of stats (upgrading Moonbow to Luna is 10 additional damage against an opponent with 50 Def), Dodge to be worth 20 points of stats (estimating Dodge to be worth approximately 10 Def/Res on average), and half of Null Follow-Up to be worth the same as the full Null Follow-Up, Brightmare Horn is still only worth 50 points of stats plus Null Follow-Up.

Combining those 50 points with the 10 points needed to catch up to modern units and subtracting the 3 points of visible Spd on the weapon, Laegjarn needs 14 points per non-HP stat to be caught up with some of the absolute best units that we currently have. And what do you know, her weapon happens to give 14 points per non-HP stat (this was not pre-planned; the estimates above came first).

And since I'm pretty sure I've overestimated Brightmare Horn's worth, and considering Professorial Text and Failnaught are almost pure stats and come nowhere near the estimated 50 points of stats that Brightmare Horn comes up to, I'd say Niu's cap could even be considered too high, but lowering the cap was not an option due to the fact that the weapon could previously give 14 points per stat before the refine.

Plain stat increases makes units very one dimensional, and the stats get outdated overtime. Effects on the other hand can better scale with the meta and are more flexible for a variety of builds.

What sets Laegjarn apart is the overwhelming amount of stats she can potentially get, and that effect can scale with the meta. With the cap on, she effectively stops scaling with the meta after a certain point.

For comparison, Gunnthrá's Blizzard has no cap on Atk and only gets better over time as better debuffs become available.

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, XRay said:

For comparison, Gunnthrá's Blizzard has no cap on Atk and only gets better over time as better debuffs become available.

It's been 4 and a half years since the game came out. The maximum penalty at launch was -13 to every stat, and the maximum penalty right now is -13 to every stat. The only thing that has changed is that it is now easier to reach the maximum penalty, but that maximum has stayed the same the entire time.

 

5 hours ago, XRay said:

What sets Laegjarn apart is the overwhelming amount of stats she can potentially get, and that effect can scale with the meta. With the cap on, she effectively stops scaling with the meta after a certain point.

Just like for Gunnthra, the maximum (consistent) bonus at launch was +6 to every stat, and the maximum (consistent) bonus right now is +6 to every stat. While it was possible at launch to get +7 to every stat and is now easier to get +7 to every stat, that feature is largely unused because of how difficult it is to pull off in practice. However, the maximum amount has, again, stayed the same.

The only time Niu has "scaled with the meta" is the few months after her launch where dual Rallies were being implemented and became adopted as the standard in high Arena defense. In the 2 and a half years since then, there has been no change in the game's meta that could have increased Niu's power, even if she had gotten the refine effect immediately and even if it were uncapped.

 

Finally, the thing about big numbers is that big numbers are still generally more versatile than other effects due to the fact that many new skills use stat comparisons, like the Dodge and Flight skills. Even if another skill comes out that nullifies an effect, you still have big numbers to fall back on.

[Jotari]

58 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's been 4 and a half years since the game came out. The maximum penalty at launch was -13 to every stat, and the maximum penalty right now is -13 to every stat. The only thing that has changed is that it is now easier to reach the maximum penalty, but that maximum has stayed the same the entire time.

 

Just like for Gunnthra, the maximum (consistent) bonus at launch was +6 to every stat, and the maximum (consistent) bonus right now is +6 to every stat. While it was possible at launch to get +7 to every stat and is now easier to get +7 to every stat, that feature is largely unused because of how difficult it is to pull off in practice. However, the maximum amount has, again, stayed the same.

The only time Niu has "scaled with the meta" is the few months after her launch where dual Rallies were being implemented and became adopted as the standard in high Arena defense. In the 2 and a half years since then, there has been no change in the game's meta that could have increased Niu's power, even if she had gotten the refine effect immediately and even if it were uncapped.

 

Finally, the thing about big numbers is that big numbers are still generally more versatile than other effects due to the fact that many new skills use stat comparisons, like the Dodge and Flight skills. Even if another skill comes out that nullifies an effect, you still have big numbers to fall back on.

What skills inflict -13 to a stat? And surely if the maximum penalty is -13 to a stat, then the maximum bonus would also be +13 by virtue of being able to use Sacrifice or Harsh Command to invert penalties. Unless you're saying that 13 is the absolute lowest the game can register even if it's unused.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What skills inflict -13 to a stat? And surely if the maximum penalty is -13 to a stat, then the maximum bonus would also be +13 by virtue of being able to use Sacrifice or Harsh Command to invert penalties. Unless you're saying that 13 is the absolute lowest the game can register even if it's unused.

Panic.

[Othin]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Panic.

As far as I can tell, Panic could potentially get you to -14 at launch (7+7) and -17 now (7+10).

Not easily, but it's possible.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

As far as I can tell, Panic could potentially get you to -14 at launch (7+7) and -17 now (7+10).

Not easily, but it's possible.

I'm only counting what you can consistently pull off, so -6 on Panicked bonuses because dual Rally is very commonly run on Arena defense, whereas tier 4 Hone skills are not, and -7 on proper penalties because the highest penalty on common debuffing skills is -7.

Also, which godforsaken unit is capable of a ±10? EDIT: Right. Buildings. Yeah, very circumstantial.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's been 4 and a half years since the game came out. The maximum penalty at launch was -13 to every stat, and the maximum penalty right now is -13 to every stat. The only thing that has changed is that it is now easier to reach the maximum penalty, but that maximum has stayed the same the entire time.

At least for defense on Aether Raids, it is not uncommon for a defense team that works around debuffs to inflict Atk/Spd, Def/Res, or Atk/Spd/Def/Res -9 on the super tank. On offense, it is more difficult since you want your back row to be as empty as possible, although I guess it is not as important to keep it empty now with the Safety Fence.

Gunnthrá can actually make a huge dent or outright kill super tanks that rely on reversing debuffs, since her Atk scales a lot faster than the tank's Res.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Finally, the thing about big numbers is that big numbers are still generally more versatile than other effects due to the fact that many new skills use stat comparisons, like the Dodge and Flight skills. Even if another skill comes out that nullifies an effect, you still have big numbers to fall back on.

Big numbers matter, but increasing raw numbers by a static or capped amount means it is stuck forever at that number. No matter how good that increase is right now, it will get outdated.

Slaying and Moonbow on the other hand for example scales up when Def/Res increases. Blizzard scaled up a bit in Aether Raids as mentioned above. Regular Blade tomes scaled up when tier 4 Hones came out.

Refined Níu on the other hand is stuck at +14 forever unless they decide to give it another Refine in the far future. Unrefined Níu is not capped, and can scale up further whenever they decide to make the power of buffs match the severity of debuffs and make them available outside of Aether Raids.

[Ice Dragon]

45 minutes ago, XRay said:

Refined Níu on the other hand is stuck at +14 forever unless they decide to give it another Refine in the far future.

And that is less problematic than allowing it to reach +23 at this point in the game, which is blatantly absurd. As I've already shown, +14 is already ahead of the curve. No, it's not going to be future-proof forever, but it's going to be future-proof for a long time.

The current rate of stat inflation on melee fliers is 16 points over the 4 and a half years that this game has been out, which is an average of 0.9 points per non-HP stat per year (as I've argued in the past, HP has had no stat inflation). The current rate of stat inflation on weapons, using Hauteclere and Hotshot Lance as benchposts, is 28 points over the 4 and a half years that this game has been out, which is an average of 1.6 points per non-HP stat per year.

At a total rate of 2.5 points per non-HP stat per year, using Legendary Claude as a benchmark due to his weapon having effects comparable to Niu, and using the approximation of the Slaying effect being worth 10 points, Niu will remain ahead of the curve for about 2 and a half years, which is plenty long enough.