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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


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1 minute ago, Naoshi said:

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At present, Book 1 is missing 17 units (3 viable) while Book 2 is missing 19 units (12 viable). Which means if we continue at our current pace without touching the Book 1 units, Book 2 will have fewer total missing units after February's update, and could be down to 3 viable missing units after March's.

(This is assuming something like Jamke/Shigure/Camilla/Ylgr in February and Garon/Legault/Mikoto/Surtr/Hrid in March.)

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With the recent introduction of seasonald brave mage cavs, i do believe that Reinhardt and co will get a refine early next year.

Hector prolly wont get a refine since he technically allready has one.

I wish the Healers and Dancers would get one but not gonna get my hopes up… which is imho bad. My +10 Wrys and Azama are waiting for one since forever…

I also do believe we will get our first Mythic remix on February

Edited by Hilda
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21 hours ago, Hilda said:

Hector prolly wont get a refine since he technically allready has one.

That doesn't seem right or... fair.
Linus also technically already had a refine, and he still got a new WEAPON to refine (which basically was just regular Basilisko that replaced Life and Death with Spd/Def drops, but still)

Hector's regular Armads is also still a fundamentally different weapon. At base it has Quick Riposte built into it, and Berserk Armads (at base being a Wrath weapon) has no form of auto-followup. If they gave Armads a refine right now, it'd be a completely different weapon compared to Berserk Armads. That'd add some value to Hector as a unit, but it shouldn't be a detriment.

Edited by Xenomata
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Legendary Lucina's is even better than expected, I'm happy!

Ironically, I said I would give her Plegian Bow if her refine sucked, I guess IS is pushing Lucina!Robin.

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Thogn - Amazing and I don't think I need to explain why.

Storm Sieglinde - It's funny to think that my first reaction to reading it was "this is kind of basic." You can reduce it down to 'Effectively all stats +8, Blade, and Dodge.' It's good, but in today's game I wonder if it's enough. I hope I'm underrating it.

Ancient Codex - Better than I expected for Canas. I expect fans of the character to love it and use it, but people without a Canas already built to pass. The refine itself is good, being stuck on Canas with his stat line is the problem.

Sworn Lance - Not bad, but not great in today's game. The refine condition is pretty restrictive compared to what we usually get nowadays.

Draconic Rage - Surprisingly similar to Storm Sieglinde, and gets more-or-less the same reaction from me. The slaying makes me feel like it probably got the better deal, though.

Spirit Breath - It's like Black Eagle Rule with stat swings. She'll be begging for Distant Counter.

Tentative ranking: Thogn > Spirit Breath > Draconic Rage > Storm Sieglinde > Ancient Codex > Sworn Lance.

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Man, every weapon refine makes me feel bad for the characters who got their refines first. Hana and Tobin's weapon refinements had the base effect of "effective against armors" and nothing more. Silas gets an additional effect as the base just because that's what powercreep is nowadays.

Not even weapon refinements can save old characters because the new ones just get shiny new powercreep due to getting their refines later anyway.

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The ones I cared about:

  • Damn, I was hoping for Windsweep but I'll also take status granting a guaranteed follow-up attack for using her frankly powerful assist. Makes me fear what LegChrom could get...
    Combined with her new Future Vision II, the enemy is pretty much guaranteed to always be inflicted with -18 Atk/Def. Add on a Spd penalty and Lucina will be golden.
    She got both a good combat boost AND a nice support effect that until now was only granted by Duo/Harmonic skills. Very very good.
  • Solid upgrade to base Draconic Rage. Refine wording looks like that of Breath skills so the Corrins should be getting special triggers all the time. Very much appreciated... and makes me anticipate the refines for the other two Adrift units.
  • Assuming Spooky Myrrh is able to maintain higher Def than the enemy, she no longer has any need for any Fighter skills outside of Special Fighter. Her refined weapon overall reminds me of Brave Edelgard's Prf weapon and skill, if a little more lenient with trigger conditions (read: basically always triggered) and minus the pseudo-perma Movement +1 effect. She would make for a great Save unit now, good call there @DefyingFates now I wish I had some Near Save fodder...

And as for the units I don't have any personal investment in...

  • That Storm Sieglinde didn't have an Atk/Spd boosting effect originally is weird to me, but whatever it's there now. I dunno though... it's definitely not a bad refine at all, and combined with Lunar Brace II it should make Eirika into a very strong Galeforce unit, but... that seems kinda bad? Don't Galeforce units usually want to get two attacks in...? But outside of that, she'll be powerful.
  • Huh, feels like it's been a while since a units Personal skill from their original game was given a proper icon...
    I will say it's a solid refine, Atk/Def +12 and follow-up denial are both solid effects especially against Armored units, but I'm always iffy on skill effects that ask for a support partner... that's coming from someone who frequently forgets the Ally Support system even exists by the way, so take it for the grain of salt it is.
  • Ancient Codex looks like a good weapon, won't lie. The problem is... well, Canas himself basically. But turning him into a special time bomb is certainly a way to breathe some life into who can now be considered the earliest example of the Grail unit with no Prf and a meh statline.
11 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Man, every weapon refine makes me feel bad for the characters who got their refines first. Hana and Tobin's weapon refinements had the base effect of "effective against armors" and nothing more. Silas gets an additional effect as the base just because that's what powercreep is nowadays.

Not even weapon refinements can save old characters because the new ones just get shiny new powercreep due to getting their refines later anyway.

Not only that, but most of the early refines were just Passive skills being tacked on without any ceremony or... anything else for that matter. Oboro, also a lance unit with an Armor-effective Prf weapon also from Fates, gets Close Def 3... and that's it. Which I guess works alright??? But not nearly as well as if she could inflict Atk/Def -11 on the enemy and make a guaranteed follow-up attack.

...hell, she didn't even get her own Prf skills icon...

Edited by Xenomata
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1 minute ago, Xenomata said:

Not only that, but most of the early refines were just Passive skills being tacked on without any ceremony or... anything else for that matter. Oboro, also a lance unit with an Armor-effective Prf weapon also from Fates, gets Close Def 3... and that's it. Which I guess works alright??? But not nearly as well as if she could inflict Atk/Def -11 on the enemy and make a guaranteed follow-up attack.

...hell, she didn't even get her own Prf skills icon...

Better than what they did to Takumi and Anna, with them getting only teleportation skills for their prf refines and not having a base effect that helps in combat. Or the Robins and Corrin, who only get effects supporting others and no benefit to them whereas current support units also can buff themselves. Or Leo getting an effect that runs on his def, which is a lolzy 25 at base and 29 even with the boon.

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Myrrh: Spooky Dragon can run a fun bulky build:
+Def/Res
Spirit Breath [special]
Swap
Escutcheon
Bracing Stance
Dragon Wall — Hardy Fighter
DR Near Save
Steady Breath

The Corrins can be okay super tanks.

Lucina: Glorious Archer is still a nice pseudo Dancer/Singer like, and now also comes with a better punch. Windsweep and Watersweep can also help against more bulky units, assuming they do not have something like Wary Fighter.

Eirika: Graceful Resolve is good. Surge Sparrow on top can help maintain bulk.

Canas might be more relevant if Infantry Pulse teams make a come back. In player hands, he is not great in my opinion. He can have precharged Rupture Sky at start of turn from 1 to 3, but that is about it.

I am not really feeling it from Silas. Arena Assault is about it.

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A bit late because I was asleep, but I'll do the same spiel with the effects regardless, I suppose.

 

Ancient Codex

Base effect grants additional damage equal to 20% of unit's or opponent's Res, whichever is higher, and +5 Atk/Res in combat, both effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

Refine effect grants +5 Atk/Res if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher and charges unit's Special by 1 point at the start of turns 1-3.

Well, literally all of that was unexpected.

At +10+20 with only his weapon equipped, he gets an effective minimum +20 Atk, putting him at 64 Atk (67 with an Asset, 65 if neutral) + 10 damage if his 51 Res (52 if neutral) is higher than his opponent's, and with a build that includes Res boosts, he can easily get another 2 points of damage on top.

For comparison, a +10+15 Fallen Julia with an Atk Asset has a similar 75 Atk with only her weapon equipped, though Canas doesn't have any player-phase presence. A +10+15 Kiria with an Atk Asset also has 75 Atk with only her weapon equipped.

The Quickened Pulse effect on the first 3 turns is pretty interesting, though I'm not sure how important it will be in practice. With Time's Pulse, he can fully charge Moonbow or Ruptured Sky each turn, but with his poor player-phase performance, I'm not sure how useful that is. Alternatively, he can fully charge Iceberg for his first counterattack or Aether for his second counterattack (if the opponent doubles), again with Time's Pulse.

Sworn Lance

Base effect grants +5 Atk/Def if unit's HP is 25% or higher and has effective damage against armor.

Refine effect grants +7 Atk/Def and prevents opponent's follow-up attack if unit's support partner is within 3 spaces or if unit's support partner's HP is 80% or lower.

That's... interesting. +12 Atk/Def and preventing the opponent's follow-up attack is no joke, but it requires Silas to be run with his support partner, and he's still a one-trick pony with high Atk and Def and nothing else.

Storm Sieglinde

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats and +1 Special charge rate, both effects with a Blow-or-Solo condition. Permanent +3 Atk is unchanged.

Refine effect grants +4 to all stats and Dodge if unit's HP is 25% or higher.

No effect to nullify Guard is a bit disappointing, as it prevents her from more reliably activating Galeforce like Ephraim, but I suppose that's fine since Ephraim still gets blocked by follow-up prevention, whereas Eirika does not. However, the Dodge effect that she actually got in its place is definitely worth it.

The +8 to all stats is also pretty insane. At +10+15 with her base kit (ignoring field buffs) and a Spd Asset, she has 72/64 offenses plus half a Moonbow on every attack. For comparison, a +10+5 Brave Eirika with her base kit and a Spd Asset has 73/63 offenses and a boosted Special.

Eirika's defenses are also no slouch at 42/36 at +10+15 with Dodge on top.

Also, it's nice that her Special charge rate boost is now applied to both her own and the opponent's attacks, whereas it previously was only her own attacks.

So yeah, Legendary Eirika is basically the Galeforce version of Brave Eirika and is significantly bulkier.

Spirit Breath

Base effect replaced with +5 Atk to unit, -5 Atk to opponent, and guaranteed follow-up, all effects if unit's Def is greater than opponent's Def at start of combat or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher. Permanent +3 Def is unchanged.

Refine effect is +5 Atk to unit and -5 Atk to opponent and, if opponent initiates combat, 70% damage reduction on the opponent's follow-up attack, all effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

So that's effectively +10/+0/+10/+10 and a slightly weaker version of Black Eagle Rule's damage reduction effect with a significantly more lenient condition on her guaranteed follow-up.

This opens up her B slot from her default Vengeful Fighter to run either Special Fighter or Dragon Wall, which is much appreciated. However, they did go out of their way to make her weapon grant no change to any Res comparisons, so Dragon Wall can be somewhat iffy of an option, given that Legendary Lilina with double Life and Death still has comparable Res to Myrrh. Maybe it's worth it if you're running Distant Stance and a Res Asset.

Thogn

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats with a Blow-or-Unity condition. Additionally, grants a Link effect that applies a guaranteed follow-up when initiating combat as a status effect. Permanent +3 Spd is unchanged.

Refine effect is -4 Atk/Spd/Def to opponent and Penalty Doubler for Atk, Spd, and Def, both effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

It looks like they really want you to run a Spd Snag on her to get the extra Penalty Doubler effect for Spd since her Future Vision II only debuffs Atk and Def. (And yes, I had to look up the name of the Snag skill again because wtf is a Snag skill.)

The stats grant her +8/+8/+8/+8 if the opponent is not debuffed and +15/+8/+15/+15 if the opponent has been hit with Future Vision II's debuffs.

At +10+20 with her base kit minus the C skill and a Spd Asset and no debuffs on the opponent, Lucina hits 70/64 offenses and 41/36 defenses, both of which are pretty solid. For comparison, Legendary Lyn with under the same conditions hits 69+9/63/35/44. Against an opponent debuffed with Future Vision II, Lucina's defenses increase to 55/50, and her Atk goes up to 84 (both counting the debuff itself), which is quite impressive.

The guaranteed follow-up as a Link effect is pretty damned amazing, and you can now basically use Lucina as a support unit for slow enemy-phase units to give them player-phase presence when needed without using up Lucina's turn. You could also potentially run Windsweep on her with no drawback, but then you lose the ability to break Wary Fighter. Additionally, considering her rather substantial 99/94 single-hit bulk against debuffed opponents, I'm not sure she really needs to block follow-ups in the first place. With Guard, she prevents Edelgard from activating Bonfire against her, and with Desperation, she can avoid enemy counterattacks if she kills in one round of combat.

Draconic Rage

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats and 40% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack, both effects with a Blow-or-Unity condition. Slaying effect is unchanged.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats and +1 Special charge rate, both effects if unit's HP is 25% or higher.

Pretty simple refine compared to all of the others. It's just a flat +8 to all stats, +1 Special charge rate, and 40% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack with lenient conditions.

Female Corrin at +10+20 with a Spd Asset hits 63/57/48/43 with just her weapon equipped.

Male Corrin at +10+20 with a Spd Asset hits 67/54/47/40 with just his weapon equipped.

For comparison, Legendary Corrin at +10+10 with a Spd Asset hits 65/54/45/40 with just her weapon equipped and has virtually the same non-stat skill effects.

The Special charge rate boost combined with the Slaying effect allows them to charge Aether in time for their second attack as long as the opponent doesn't have Guard. Against opponents with Guard, they can still hit Bonfire or Luna.

The Adrift Corrins are basically Legendary Corrin with slightly better stats and more build versatility, whereas Legendary Corrin is colorless and her damage reduction cannot be nullified.

 

Overall thoughts

Silas's refine is easily the weakest of the bunch. He's still stuck as an enemy-phase physically bulky cavalry, which is a waste of his cavalry movement type, and the condition on his refine limits his teambuilding options to require him to be fielded with his support partner. It's not horrible, but it's definitely not great.

Both of the Legendary refines are amazing, as can be expected. Eirika is hilariously bulky for her role archetype and can be run either as a wall breaker like her CYL version or as a Galeforcer like Ephraim. Lucina significantly improves her support role and puts her offensively on par with Lyn while also being surprisingly bulky.

Canas's refine is pretty good in a vacuum, but given how awful he was before the refine, but all it does is bring him up to par with more modern slow red tomes, and even then, he's only barely better than Kiria, who was released 2 years ago. But at least he's actually usable now. Oh, and the battle animation is based on that of Luna from the GBA games, which seems to be the source of the 20% of Res damage effect (since it's basically a weaker Moonbow/Iceberg hybrid).

The Adrift Corrins are basically comparable to Legendary Corrin now. Slightly superior stat-wise and more versatile, but also much more expensive to build. Despite their simplicity, they're easily the best refines outside of the Legendaries.

 

10 hours ago, Florete said:

Storm Sieglinde - It's funny to think that my first reaction to reading it was "this is kind of basic." You can reduce it down to 'Effectively all stats +8, Blade, and Dodge.' It's good, but in today's game I wonder if it's enough. I hope I'm underrating it.

I think you're underrating it because the rest of Eirika's updated kit is coming from Lunar Brace II, which gives her Null Follow-Up, Canto [2], and half of a Moonbow on every attack (and no longer has a Special cooldown penalty).

 

10 hours ago, Xenomata said:
  • That Storm Sieglinde didn't have an Atk/Spd boosting effect originally is weird to me, but whatever it's there now. I dunno though... it's definitely not a bad refine at all, and combined with Lunar Brace II it should make Eirika into a very strong Galeforce unit, but... that seems kinda bad? Don't Galeforce units usually want to get two attacks in...? But outside of that, she'll be powerful.

You only need to get in two attacks on the first round of combat, and she has enough bulk to potentially use enemy-phase combat to help charge up Galeforce for subsequent turns if you're finding that she's killing things too quickly.

And if you don't activate Galeforce on the first round of combat, Canto at least lets her move back towards your dancers to try again (though you still need to not kill the second enemy in one hit).

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48 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

A bit late because I was asleep, but I'll do the same spiel with the effects regardless, I suppose.

 

Ancient Codex

Base effect grants additional damage equal to 20% of unit's or opponent's Res, whichever is higher, and +5 Atk/Res in combat, both effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

Refine effect grants +5 Atk/Res if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher and charges unit's Special by 1 point at the start of turns 1-3.

Well, literally all of that was unexpected.

At +10+20 with only his weapon equipped, he gets an effective minimum +20 Atk, putting him at 64 Atk (67 with an Asset, 65 if neutral) + 10 damage if his 51 Res (52 if neutral) is higher than his opponent's, and with a build that includes Res boosts, he can easily get another 2 points of damage on top.

For comparison, a +10+15 Fallen Julia with an Atk Asset has a similar 75 Atk with only her weapon equipped, though Canas doesn't have any player-phase presence. A +10+15 Kiria with an Atk Asset also has 75 Atk with only her weapon equipped.

The Quickened Pulse effect on the first 3 turns is pretty interesting, though I'm not sure how important it will be in practice. With Time's Pulse, he can fully charge Moonbow or Ruptured Sky each turn, but with his poor player-phase performance, I'm not sure how useful that is. Alternatively, he can fully charge Iceberg for his first counterattack or Aether for his second counterattack (if the opponent doubles), again with Time's Pulse.

Sworn Lance

Base effect grants +5 Atk/Def if unit's HP is 25% or higher and has effective damage against armor.

Refine effect grants +7 Atk/Def and prevents opponent's follow-up attack if unit's support partner is within 3 spaces or if unit's support partner's HP is 80% or lower.

That's... interesting. +12 Atk/Def and preventing the opponent's follow-up attack is no joke, but it requires Silas to be run with his support partner, and he's still a one-trick pony with high Atk and Def and nothing else.

Storm Sieglinde

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats and +1 Special charge rate, both effects with a Blow-or-Solo condition. Permanent +3 Atk is unchanged.

Refine effect grants +4 to all stats and Dodge if unit's HP is 25% or higher.

No effect to nullify Guard is a bit disappointing, as it prevents her from more reliably activating Galeforce like Ephraim, but I suppose that's fine since Ephraim still gets blocked by follow-up prevention, whereas Eirika does not. However, the Dodge effect that she actually got in its place is definitely worth it.

The +8 to all stats is also pretty insane. At +10+15 with her base kit (ignoring field buffs) and a Spd Asset, she has 72/64 offenses plus half a Moonbow on every attack. For comparison, a +10+5 Brave Eirika with her base kit and a Spd Asset has 73/63 offenses and a boosted Special.

Eirika's defenses are also no slouch at 42/36 at +10+15 with Dodge on top.

Also, it's nice that her Special charge rate boost is now applied to both her own and the opponent's attacks, whereas it previously was only her own attacks.

So yeah, Legendary Eirika is basically the Galeforce version of Brave Eirika and is significantly bulkier.

Spirit Breath

Base effect replaced with +5 Atk to unit, -5 Atk to opponent, and guaranteed follow-up, all effects if unit's Def is greater than opponent's Def at start of combat or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher. Permanent +3 Def is unchanged.

Refine effect is +5 Atk to unit and -5 Atk to opponent and, if opponent initiates combat, 70% damage reduction on the opponent's follow-up attack, all effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

So that's effectively +10/+0/+10/+10 and a slightly weaker version of Black Eagle Rule's damage reduction effect with a significantly more lenient condition on her guaranteed follow-up.

This opens up her B slot from her default Vengeful Fighter to run either Special Fighter or Dragon Wall, which is much appreciated. However, they did go out of their way to make her weapon grant no change to any Res comparisons, so Dragon Wall can be somewhat iffy of an option, given that Legendary Lilina with double Life and Death still has comparable Res to Myrrh. Maybe it's worth it if you're running Distant Stance and a Res Asset.

Thogn

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats with a Blow-or-Unity condition. Additionally, grants a Link effect that applies a guaranteed follow-up when initiating combat as a status effect. Permanent +3 Spd is unchanged.

Refine effect is -4 Atk/Spd/Def to opponent and Penalty Doubler for Atk, Spd, and Def, both effects if there is an ally within 3 spaces.

It looks like they really want you to run a Spd Snag on her to get the extra Penalty Doubler effect for Spd since her Future Vision II only debuffs Atk and Def. (And yes, I had to look up the name of the Snag skill again because wtf is a Snag skill.)

The stats grant her +8/+8/+8/+8 if the opponent is not debuffed and +15/+8/+15/+15 if the opponent has been hit with Future Vision II's debuffs.

At +10+20 with her base kit minus the C skill and a Spd Asset and no debuffs on the opponent, Lucina hits 70/64 offenses and 41/36 defenses, both of which are pretty solid. For comparison, Legendary Lyn with under the same conditions hits 69+9/63/35/44. Against an opponent debuffed with Future Vision II, Lucina's defenses increase to 55/50, and her Atk goes up to 84 (both counting the debuff itself), which is quite impressive.

The guaranteed follow-up as a Link effect is pretty damned amazing, and you can now basically use Lucina as a support unit for slow enemy-phase units to give them player-phase presence when needed without using up Lucina's turn. You could also potentially run Windsweep on her with no drawback, but then you lose the ability to break Wary Fighter. Additionally, considering her rather substantial 99/94 single-hit bulk against debuffed opponents, I'm not sure she really needs to block follow-ups in the first place. With Guard, she prevents Edelgard from activating Bonfire against her, and with Desperation, she can avoid enemy counterattacks if she kills in one round of combat.

Draconic Rage

Base effect replaced with +4 to all stats and 40% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack, both effects with a Blow-or-Unity condition. Slaying effect is unchanged.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats and +1 Special charge rate, both effects if unit's HP is 25% or higher.

Pretty simple refine compared to all of the others. It's just a flat +8 to all stats, +1 Special charge rate, and 40% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack with lenient conditions.

Female Corrin at +10+20 with a Spd Asset hits 63/57/48/43 with just her weapon equipped.

Male Corrin at +10+20 with a Spd Asset hits 67/54/47/40 with just his weapon equipped.

For comparison, Legendary Corrin at +10+10 with a Spd Asset hits 65/54/45/40 with just her weapon equipped and has virtually the same non-stat skill effects.

The Special charge rate boost combined with the Slaying effect allows them to charge Aether in time for their second attack as long as the opponent doesn't have Guard. Against opponents with Guard, they can still hit Bonfire or Luna.

The Adrift Corrins are basically Legendary Corrin with slightly better stats and more build versatility, whereas Legendary Corrin is colorless and her damage reduction cannot be nullified.

 

Overall thoughts

Silas's refine is easily the weakest of the bunch. He's still stuck as an enemy-phase physically bulky cavalry, which is a waste of his cavalry movement type, and the condition on his refine limits his teambuilding options to require him to be fielded with his support partner. It's not horrible, but it's definitely not great.

Both of the Legendary refines are amazing, as can be expected. Eirika is hilariously bulky for her role archetype and can be run either as a wall breaker like her CYL version or as a Galeforcer like Ephraim. Lucina significantly improves her support role and puts her offensively on par with Lyn while also being surprisingly bulky.

Canas's refine is pretty good in a vacuum, but given how awful he was before the refine, but all it does is bring him up to par with more modern slow red tomes, and even then, he's only barely better than Kiria, who was released 2 years ago. But at least he's actually usable now. Oh, and the battle animation is based on that of Luna from the GBA games, which seems to be the source of the 20% of Res damage effect (since it's basically a weaker Moonbow/Iceberg hybrid).

The Adrift Corrins are basically comparable to Legendary Corrin now. Slightly superior stat-wise and more versatile, but also much more expensive to build. Despite their simplicity, they're easily the best refines outside of the Legendaries.

 

I think you're underrating it because the rest of Eirika's updated kit is coming from Lunar Brace II, which gives her Null Follow-Up, Canto [2], and half of a Moonbow on every attack (and no longer has a Special cooldown penalty).

 

You only need to get in two attacks on the first round of combat, and she has enough bulk to potentially use enemy-phase combat to help charge up Galeforce for subsequent turns if you're finding that she's killing things too quickly.

And if you don't activate Galeforce on the first round of combat, Canto at least lets her move back towards your dancers to try again (though you still need to not kill the second enemy in one hit).

Well we are discussing difficulty here. If the answer is "well Pokemon isn't meant to be difficult" then it kind of shuts down the conversation entirely.

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11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well we are discussing difficulty here. If the answer is "well Pokemon isn't meant to be difficult" then it kind of shuts down the conversation entirely.

... Who or what are you responding to?

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9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You only need to get in two attacks on the first round of combat, and she has enough bulk to potentially use enemy-phase combat to help charge up Galeforce for subsequent turns if you're finding that she's killing things too quickly.

And if you don't activate Galeforce on the first round of combat, Canto at least lets her move back towards your dancers to try again (though you still need to not kill the second enemy in one hit).

That's fair. Looking at her stats again though (and assuming neutral), she only hits 58 Atk with her base refined weapon (plus 15% of enemy defense), which is really kinda average for most GF users these days. Sure her A and SS slots remain opened up, but I don't think that'll actually be enough to make my concerns remain plausible... so yeah nevermind.

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Eirika's weapon combined with her B Skill, like how it happened with Ryoma basically turn her into a Infantry with another movement class (also with their own flavor of true damage)

Though instead of DC and inmunity to movement-based effectiveness, Eirika has Super Breath, a bit higher stats and Canto.

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  • 3 weeks later...

What's cold and shiny at the same time? It's the new batch of weapon refines! This time featuring:

  • Hrid: Icy Blade and Eir: Merciful Death, who will be the first Mythic unit to be receiving the remix treatment, and with it refines to Gjöll and Lyfjaberg. Gjoll boosted Hrid's Atk by 3, and if the opponent had a Penalty inflicted on them then Hrid would gain an automatic follow-up attack while the foe lost theirs. Lyfjaberg, meanwhile, boosted Eir's Res by 3, granted her Atk/Spd +4 if her HP was above 50% and foe follow-up denial if she initiated combat, but inflicted 4 damage to her post-combat if she was granted the bonus during combat.
  • Lugh: Anima Child will be receiving the new Prf green tome Tome of Reason. His original weapon, Gronnserpent, was Distant Defense in a weapon, increasing his Def/Res by 6 if the enemy was using a ranged weapon.
  • Camilla: Flower of Fantasy from the Adrift banner will have her Book of Dreams refined. This weapon increased Camilla's Atk by 3 and inflicted all stat -4 on the foe during combat if Camilla was next to an ally.
  • The 4* unit this month will be Legault: The Hurricane, who will be dropping that whole Cleaner nonsense for the Hurricane Dagger. The Cleaner, Legaults "prf weapon," has what is now called Dominance on it, meaning it boosted the damage dealt in proportion to the total stat penalties inflicted on the enemy.
  • The Grail unit this month is Jamke: Prince of Verdane, who will fittingly be getting the Bow of Verdane. Jamke's original weapon is the Slaying Bow, which granted Special Trigger -1.
  • Lastly, the seasonal unit this month will be Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly from the Gifts of Winter Christmas banner, whose Festive Siegmund will be getting refined. This weapon has Accelerated Special Trigger -1 and essentially spectrum solo: if Ephraim was alone, he got all stat +4.
Edited by Xenomata
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3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

The Cleaner, Legaults "prf weapon," has what is now called Dominance on it, meaning it boosted the damage dealt in proportion to the total stat penalties inflicted on the enemy.

The Cleaner grants bonuses to Atk (not damage dealt) iqual to foe's bonuses (not penalties) during combat.

Example: if foe has Atk/Spd+6, grants Atk+12 during combat to the Cleaner's user. Doesnt means he will deal 12 damage.

It's different from Dominance.

Edited by Diovani Bressan
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Hopes and predictions, I guess, but first, translation notes:

 

Tome of Reason is "純理の書" (junri no sho), "Tome of Pure Logic".

Bow of Verdane is "ヴェルダンの荒弓" (verudan no kōkyū), "Wild Bow of Verdane".

Hurricane Dagger is "疾風の暗器" (shippū no anki), "Gale Dagger". "疾風" (shippū), "gale", is Legault's epithet in Japanese, localized in English as "The Hurricane", so this weapon could be translated as "The Hurricane's Dagger". As usual, "暗器" (anki), "concealed weapon", is the name of the dagger weapon type in Heroes, so I translate it as "dagger".

 

Tome of Reason

Lugh currently has Gronnserpent, which has Distant Def 3 as its effect.

Other than his only decent Res stat, Lugh's stat spread doesn't really make sense for Gronnserpent, and I suspect he has it only for the purpose of making it available for player use. As such, I'm pretty sure his new exclusive weapon will ditch Gronnserpent's effect completely.

In terms of stats, Lugh is basically identical to Luthier, having -1/+1 relative offenses after Dragonflowers with Luthier being equal or slightly ahead in all three defensive stats. His lack of an exclusive weapon also immediately put him behind Levn on release.

Since I don't think Tome of Reason will keep Gronnserpent's effect, it's hard to predict what it'll get. It'll almost certainly come with a boost to Atk and Spd to play to his strengths, and if they want to reference Gronnserpent, it'll just come with a boost to all stats. Other than that, other effects could be anything, given that Lugh has a generic offensive stat spread.

Bow of Verdane

Jamke currently has Slaying Bow, which has the Slaying effect as its effect.

I'm hoping Bow of Verdane will reference the fact that Jamke gets a Brave Bow from Adean if they're paired up. It's worth noting that Jamke is still tied for the highest base Atk stat among colorless bow infantry after accounting for Dragonflowers, which already makes a Brave Bow a good option for him.

If he can get both the Slaying effect and the Brave or Meister effect on his weapon along with an Atk boost of some sort, he'd be set.

Hurricane Dagger

Legault currently has Windex, which has weapons-grade Dominance and Dagger (7) as its effects.

Hurricane Dagger is likely to keep Clorox's base effect. Preferably, its refine should have a way to inflict penalties without needing to engage in combat so that Legault can reliably activate the weapon's base effect.

It'd be cool to get actual Dominance instead of Lysol's version of Dominance plus the Slaying effect so that he can be used with an AoE build, given that Dominance affects AoE skills whereas Ajax's version of Dominance doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

Gjoll

Current effect is the Weaponbreaker effect if the opponent has a Penalty and a permanent +3 Atk.

Gjoll is definitely getting at least -6 Atk and Def on the opponent in combat.

I'm expecting it to get Penalty Doubler like Blizzard, though potentially only for Atk and Def, and possibly also half of Null Follow-Up (either half is good).

Damage reduction is also a possibility. Maybe percentage damage reduction equal to double the total Penalties on the opponent with a maximum of 40%?

Book of Dreams

Current effect is -4 to all stats on opponent with a Bond condition and a permanent +3 Atk.

The condition is definitely going to be changed to Blow-or-Unity, just like Draconic Rage.

Camilla has high Atk and middling Spd, so I'm expecting them to completely ignore boosting Spd and double down on boosting Atk and Res, which is going to be a bummer. I'm expecting the refine to have a teleportation effect of some sort, but otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.

Festive Siegmund

Current effect is the Slaying effect and +4 to all stats with a Solo condition.

The condition is definitely going to be changed to Blow-or-Solo.

Special Heroes get really good refines, so I have high expectations for this one. Ephraim has high Atk, being one of the first units (if not the first unit) in the stronger-than-Duma club, but his defenses are definitely lacking when compared to more recent armored units, so I'm pretty sure Festive Siegmund will get an additional boost to Atk and Def on top of the one it already has.

Given that he already has Bold Fighter on his base kit, I think the refine will probably come with a guaranteed follow-up on enemy phase and possibly also Armored Stride. Wishful thinking says he should also get Canto [Rem. +1].

Also, since Brave Ephraim has a reference to Solar Brace in Garm's weapon refine, we might also see a healing effect tacked onto Festive Siegmund.

Lyfjaberg

Current effect is +4 Atk/Spd during combat and 4 recoil damage after combat if unit's HP is 50% or higher, prevents opponent's follow-up if unit's HP is 50% or higher and unit initiates combat, a permanent +3 Res, and Dagger (7).

Since Sparkling Boost didn't get Penalty removal, I'm really, really hoping Lyfjaberg gets it with the same targeting condition.

Lyfjaberg's base effect and Eir's base kit clearly intend for her to be used offensively, but she lacks the Atk stat and physical bulk to actually pull off the role, and even the follow-up prevention is rendered pointless due to her abysmally bad 49 physical bulk at +0. We already have units that can reach 49 Atk with just an Asset and merges even before equipping a weapon or passive skills.

As a result, she ends up simply being a support unit due to Sparkling Boost having a healing effect without the need to use an action. Preferably, she gets a boost to Atk and Windsweep (without the penalty) to cover her most glaring weakness in this role, but a large damage reduction (50% or higher) from the opponent's first attack also works and plays off of her follow-up prevention.

The base effect also having recoil damage pretty much forces Eir to run either Mystic Boost in her B slot, which severely limits her build options, notably preventing her from running Trace skills. Even Desperation isn't a great option since she'll easily drop below 50% HP if she gets counterattacked at all and simply lose all of her weapon's effects after that point. I'd like to see the recoil damage removed.

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Double post because I'm getting an error editing my previous post.

1 hour ago, Naoshi said:

I wonder if L!Azura will get weapon refine and if also will open to other dancers their refine. I guess we will find out next month

I'm half expecting to get Legendary Azura, Olivia, Azura, Ninian, and Dancer Azura all in a single update (kind of like how we got all the Falchions all at once), but that can't happen because Legendary Azura is likely to get her remix and refine next month, but New Year Gunnthra is already confirmed to be next month's Special Hero refine.

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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Bow of Verdane

Jamke currently has Slaying Bow, which has the Slaying effect as its effect.

I'm hoping Bow of Verdane will reference the fact that Jamke gets a Brave Bow from Adean if they're paired up. It's worth noting that Jamke is still tied for the highest base Atk stat among colorless bow infantry after accounting for Dragonflowers, which already makes a Brave Bow a good option for him.

If he can get both the Slaying effect and the Brave or Meister effect on his weapon along with an Atk boost of some sort, he'd be set.

Even taking the Brave Bow out of the equation, Jamke is most memorable in gameplay for the fact that he just doesn't stop attacking due to his initial skill setup.

 

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Tome of Reason

Base effect is +6 Def and Res to unit and allies within 2 spaces at the start of the turn if there is at least one ally within 2 spaces and +4 to all stats if HP is 25% or higher.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats and an additional in-combat boost to Atk and Res equal to 60% of unit's total Def and Res bonuses, both effects with a Blow-or-Unity condition.

+8 to all stats and +6 Def/Res field buff to self and allies within 2 spaces is pretty decent, but Levn has similar stats and gains +8 Atk and +11 Spd from his weapon in addition to nullifying his Atk and Spd penalties and the opponent's Atk and Spd bonuses and having Desperation at high HP. The additional boost to Atk and Res comes out to a total of +7 if he has his +6 field buffs and they aren't nullified.

Honestly, I don't really see why you'd want to use him over Levn if you have both of them, even if Lugh does hit harder if his buffs aren't nullified. The potential +15 Res with the full effect does help tank counterattacks from enemies that target Res, but the +8 Def isn't really keeping him alive against physical opponents. On the other hand, the field buffs do save some skill slots.

Bow of Verdane

Base effect is the Slaying effect and +5 Atk and Spd with a Blow-or-Solo condition.

Refine effect is +5 Atk and Spd. If unit's Spd at the start of combat is 3 or more higher than the opponent's, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. If unit's Spd at the start of combat is 7 or more higher than the opponent's, unit gains the Desperation effect. All refine effects only if HP is 25% or higher.

Jamke's Spd is not particularly amazing at only 32 base, meaning he can realistically only activate his weapon's full effect against opponents with at most 37 base Spd if he's running both Life and Death 4 and Life and Death 3, and his defenses are pretty lackluster at 67/55 single-hit bulk at +0+0, which double Life and Death will drop to a very low 57/45.

At +10+20 with a Spd Asset and double Life and Death, he hits 55 visible Spd, allowing him to activate his weapon's full effect against opponents with 48 visible Spd or lower, which is still not great, as a unit at +10+5 with a superboon and 40 base Spd already blocks Jamke's Desperation effect. Yen'fay even blocks Jamke's Desperation effect at +0+0 with a Spd Asset.

That said, if the opponent cannot counterattack, Jamke still does get +10 Atk/Spd and a guaranteed follow-up against most opponents, which is good, but not amazing considering Young Innes trades a bit less damage for more Spd and pseudo-Deadeye.

Hurricane Dagger

Base effect is +5 Atk and Spd if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher or if the opponent has a Penalty. Also has Windex's base effect.

Refine effect is +5 Atk and Spd, tier-2 Dodge (3% × difference, max 30%), and +5 damage if unit's Spd is greater than opponent's Spd. All effects if HP is 25% or higher.

A total of +15 effective Atk, +10 Spd, Clorox, and 30% maximum damage reduction.

Offensively, he's now the best 4-star dagger infantry and one of the best dagger units in general, being only 2 points of Spd behind Leila and having 6 more effective Atk if he gets the additional 5 damage, and that's before getting Lysol's effect. Dodge also helps cover for his relatively low defenses on both sides, at least against slower opponents.

Seems like he'll be a solid unit, though he has to watch out for the fastest modern units, which can still out-speed him.

Gjoll

Base effect upgraded with -5 Atk and Def to the opponent if HP is 25% or higher or if the opponent has a Penalty.

Refine effect is -5 Atk and Def to the opponent and an additional in-combat penalty to the opponent's Atk and Def equal to double the Bonus on the corresponding stat. Both effects with a Blow-or-Unity condition.

Hrid now gets -10 Atk/Def on the opponent and get's Sneering Axe's in-combat Panic effect, though only for Atk and Def.

Enemies hit with Freezing Seal II end up hit with a minimum of -17 Atk/Def against him in addition to having their bonuses to Atk and Def reversed, while Atk/Def Menace grants him +6 Atk/Def for a total 23-point differential. Not much else to say. He isn't going to hit quite as hard as Gunnthra, but he should function a lot more effectively now as a tank.

It's a bit unfortunate that he needs to give up Distant Counter if you want to run him with a Duel skill in the Arena, but it shouldn't be too difficult to play around that.

Book of Dreams

Base effect changed to -5 Atk, Spd, and Res to the closest enemies within 5 spaces and all enemies within 2 spaces of them. Additionally -4 to all opponent's stats with a Blow-or-Unity condition. The permanent +3 Atk is unchanged.

Refine is +5 Atk and Spd and an additional in-combat boost to damage (also applies to AoE Specials) equal to 15% of Atk. Both effects if HP is 25% or higher.

Camilla only had 30 base Spd to begin with, so I was expecting them to do the same to her as they did with Bride Sanaki and just ignore her Spd stat, but they didn't. She gets an effective +9 Spd before counting Penalties, bringing her up to 39 Spd, which is okay, but not amazing.

However, at +10+15 with an Atk Asset and maximum Atk investment (Atk/* Catch 4 + Blade Session 3), she hits 87+13 effective Atk before Bonuses, Penalties, and team support, which is pretty good for a nuke without a Litrblade-like effect.

While her Penalty doesn't hit quite as hard as Gunnthra's -7 to all stats, its targeting is much more reliable.

Festive Siegmund

Base effect changed to +4 to all stats and 7 HP recovery after combat if opponent's HP is 75% or higher or with Solo condition. Slaying effect is unchanged.

Refine is -5 Atk and Def to the opponent. If unit's Atk is greater than opponent's Atk and opponent initiates combat, unit gains the Brave effect. Both effects if HP is 25% or higher.

Yes, because we need Ephraim with +9 Atk and an enemy-phase Brave Slaying weapon. What the fuck. As expected, he also gets HP recovery like his Brave and Legendary versions.

Thankfully, it's harder to stack Atk on enemy phase compared to player phase, so you can still reasonably get around the Brave effect with a lot of wallbreakers, and he lacks a guaranteed follow-up on his weapon, meaning he'll need to pick which phase to get a guaranteed follow-up from his B skill.

Could also run Pavise + Hardy Fighter + A/* Near Save, though he'll need to rely on the opponent's HP being 75% or higher since he won't be able to use the Solo condition on his base effect. Might need to wait for a Fierce Breath Sacred Seal to be a bit more reliable, though.

Lyfjaberg

Base effect changed to +4 to all stats. If unit initiates combat or if unit's Spd is greater than opponent's Spd, unit gains the Guard effect and opponent cannot make a follow-up attack. Both effects if HP is 25% or higher. Permanent +3 Res and Dagger (7) are unchanged.

Refine effect is +4 to all stats, an additional in-combat boost to Atk and Res equal to 20% of HP at start of combat, and 7 HP recovery for unit and allies within 2 spaces after combat. All effects if there is at least one ally within 3 spaces.

No Penalty removal is a bit disappointing.

Assuming Eir is +10+15 with full HP and no HP Asset, the refined Lyfjaberg has +12/4/8/16 over the original weapon. Her physical bulk is still not great, hitting only 71 at +10+15 with no boosts from passive skills, but now that she no longer receives recoil damage and has 7 HP recovery after combat on her weapon, she can viably drop Mystic Boost for something like A/S Far Trace to slightly boost her bulk. Alternatively, she also now has an excuse to drop Mystic Boost for Disarm Trap.

It's a bit disappointing that ranged units can't run Pegasus Flight, as she would definitely have appreciated the almost guaranteed +7 Atk/Def/Res.

 

Overall thoughts

Hrid got the best deal this time around. Ephraim's, Legault's, and Camilla's are also very good. Eir's is decent, but it doesn't fix her two biggest problems being her low physical bulk and Deep Wounds blocking Sparkling Boost's effect. Jamke's and Lugh's are at least usable, but don't really stand out among other units with the same weapon and movement type and similar availability (Young Innes and Levn, respectively).

Edited by Ice Dragon
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No crazy refines this month.

Lyfjaberg - Eh...Sparkling Boost+ gave me hope for a good supportive Lyfjaberg, but this ain't it. I can't see combat Eir working out, especially not in the long run. She can probably make a good mage buster, but how valuable actually is that?

Gjöll - Pretty good going along with his remix skills. Hrid can both inflict penalties and punish foe's bonuses.

Book of Dreams - Tame, but not too bad. Probably won't age well, though.

Hurricane Dagger - Awkward. He doesn't have the bulk to make good use of the refine's dodge (which is capped at 30% anyway) and the Cleaner effect is already harder to use when players aren't always reliant on visible buffs. It's not bad, I don't think, but also not great.

Bow of Verdane - Good effects for sure. The problem is that Jamke doesn't have the Spd to make great use of it. A max-investment Jamke can probably do a lot of work with it, but otherwise it'll be tough to use effectively.

Tome of Reason - Basically just a statball, and part of it relies on his visible buffs. Poor Lugh.

Festive Siegmund - Basically designed for Ephraim to be a Near Saver. Well-invested WEphraims are going to be terrifying if you can't beat that Atk check, which will be difficult considering how high his Atk is.

Potential ranking: Festive Siegmund > Gjöll > Book of Dreams > Bow of Verdane > Hurricane Dagger > Lyfjaberg > Tome of Reason

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