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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


Corrobin
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Going from doesn't-affect-me-much to I-literally-have-this-unit-max-merged:

  • Bow of Verdane gains all effects when initiating combat, and gives a total Atk/Spd +10 and either a guaranteed follow-up or Desperation (or can you get both at the same time? It kind of sounds like you can get both). Coming off 32 base Spd, it will take quite a bit of investment before you are consistently having 7 more Spd than most enemies, though I guess he can still take out slower/bulkier enemies. Slaying effect remains nice to have.
  • Hurricane Dagger grants a total of +10 Atk/Spd, a Dodge 2 effect, and +5 damage. Compared to Kaze, Legault is both faster and stronger (especially on foes with Bonuses) with a more defensive effect compared to Kaze having overall lower Atk/Spd and no way to get around his low Def, but Kaze comes with the Slaying effect and accelerated special charge on top of higher Res than Legault... hm, not sure which of the two can be considered superior...
  • Gjoll is definitely upgraded heavily. Total Atk/Def -10 penalty on the enemy, plus the original effects and even a pseudo-Panic effect make for a very punishing weapon. Combined with the remix Hrid got, there's very little reason for him to never have total domination over the enemy... aside from being sniped by someone who wasn't being targeted by his skills anyway.
  • Tome of Reason just looks like a smaller LegTiki (ironic considering LegTiki is already so small) but without the benefits of a Save skill. All stat +8 in combat, as well as Def/Res +6 at the start of the turn that pairs with the Atk/Res penalty to come to... I think -7? It's an alright tome, very deceptively defensive considering the unit it comes on was never known to have high Res, let alone Def.
  • Book of Dreams looks VERY strong. Just upgrading the base effect to be active on PP was good, but a large debuff zone like that is plain mean and almost guaranteed to go off (and it even triggers on enemies who are near the victims as well, bonus!), but Atk/Spd +5 AND extra damage based of Camilla's Atk is icing on the cake. That is a lot of raw power. Kind of makes me upset Adrift Camilla wasn't a Forma unit now compared to when the skills available to her were just plain bad...
  • Festive Siegmund I'm glad added the extra skill trigger. I never could get Ephraim to be totally alone whenever I used him...
    Anyway, the additional healing granted by the base refine, plus the special refine granting even more power and basically EP Brave weapon status... now that he is no longer a Solo unit, he would make for a very mean Save unit.
  • Lyfjaberg... I'm not disappointed by it, I'm just disappointed that I have to pass it over because that's just not what I'm using Eir for in Light season. More on that later.
    It is by no means a bad refine. a total of +8 to all stats during combat, Guard and follow-up denial if she is faster or initiating combat, additional Atk/Res that scales off her current HP (my +10 merge Eir with at least one dragonflower hits 40 HP for an additional +8 Atk/Res), hell even extra healing for herself and nearby allies. None of that is bad at all.

Basically my problem with Eir's refine is that it wants her to be an offensive unit or even a magic tank, but I already have a superunit for Light season (Brave Marth) and I don't use Eir outside of weeks where she is the bonus unit (and I hardly use her outside of AR anyway), so I gave her Temari+ to delegate her to a full support unit, and frankly she has never needed to enter combat even in an emergency. It's a very big shame... I guess if I had to pick a "winner" it'd be Adrift Camilla or Santa Ephraim because of the raw power behind them. Again though, I very much wish Camilla were a Forma unit now and not when skills for ranged fliers were just... bad.
(Hrid's is the best clearly, I mostly meant among the non-Legendary refines because honestly the Leg refines just don't compare to the normal ones)

Edited by Xenomata
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Eir is for dueling mages I guess, but I do not see her being that relevant. The healing makes Desperation difficult, and she cannot run Dive-Bomb or Flows. I think her Refine makes more sense on a defense Mythic. The Refine is not good or bad, just okay.

Hríd is good. Just pair him with Gunnthrá or other stronger debuffers for fun.

Camilla: Flower of Fantasy is meh. Like Eir, her Refine is just okay.

Legault might be unreliable due to being based on foe's buffs. Probably best in Arena where buffs are common, and so-so elsewhere.

While the Refine itself is good, Jamke needs some pretty significant Spd support.

Lugh is meh like other ranged units.

Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly got a pretty questionable condition on an otherwise pretty decent Refine. I think the only realistic set up is if he is paired with a bunch of Flayns with Drive Atk. That means he does not work too well with Elimine since her C does not boost Atk. If they release a Light counterpart to Elimine that boosts Atk, I think that is when he can more reliably shine.

I think Hríd got the best Refine. Legault is more specialized for Arena, so great if you use him there, and just okay if used elsewhere. Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly needs significant support, and I do not think that kind of support exists yet in my opinion. Jamke's Refine is great, except his stat spread is not, so similar boat as Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly. Eir is pretty iffy to invest in and only if you use her to fight mages. I do not think Lugh and Camilla: Flower of Fantasy are even remotely worth it.

Edited by XRay
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I liked Eir's refinement, but I can see why people wouldn't want that. Like... She doesnt damage herself anymore, she heals herself now.

I guess she can bait and tank Bramimond now? Even with his tome, he cannot double Eir unless he has NFU.

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As someone who uses Lugh quite a bit I'm pretty happy with the refine. Its not earth shattering, but he gives his other teammates some nice support and he gets some extra stats to keep up. I did't expect too much, but I can make good use of what I got.

I remember trying to use Legault once. Maybe i'll give his refine a whirl too one day.

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So, who do we have for next month. My guesses:
As Shigure is the only demote from book 2 without a prf, he'll be on that spot next month.
Since Shigure is blue and they tend to balance colors usually, that takes out Ophelia and Ylgr and points to Surtr as the Book 2 5* exclusive.
For Seasonal we have NY!Gunnthra on red.
This leaves colorless to pick from Book 3 and my guess is Velouria.
Grail unit rounding it down should be Garon, unless they pull the rug on us.

Tbh, that's not a lineup I'm too excited about. 

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1 hour ago, Rinco said:

So, who do we have for next month. My guesses:
As Shigure is the only demote from book 2 without a prf, he'll be on that spot next month.
Since Shigure is blue and they tend to balance colors usually, that takes out Ophelia and Ylgr and points to Surtr as the Book 2 5* exclusive.
For Seasonal we have NY!Gunnthra on red.
This leaves colorless to pick from Book 3 and my guess is Velouria.
Grail unit rounding it down should be Garon, unless they pull the rug on us.

Tbh, that's not a lineup I'm too excited about. 

Solid picks.

I agree on Shigure taking out the others blues, NY Gunnthrá because she is the next in line, and Garon for the GHB.

However, I will predict a little different for the Colorless and Green. I think they will go with Mikoto for the Colorless and Kaden or Sue for the Green.

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2 hours ago, Rinco said:

So, who do we have for next month. My guesses:
As Shigure is the only demote from book 2 without a prf, he'll be on that spot next month.
Since Shigure is blue and they tend to balance colors usually, that takes out Ophelia and Ylgr and points to Surtr as the Book 2 5* exclusive.
For Seasonal we have NY!Gunnthra on red.
This leaves colorless to pick from Book 3 and my guess is Velouria.
Grail unit rounding it down should be Garon, unless they pull the rug on us.

Tbh, that's not a lineup I'm too excited about. 

I'd be up for a Surtr refine. He's not nearly as great as he used to be, but he's still one of the most reliable units for taking on Heroic Ordeals due to his bulk and non lethal passive damage ability.

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As someone who just pulled a +Atk/-Spd Surtr today, yes please let him be next. Sinmara is practically guaranteed to gain Deep Wounds infliction (so Surtr can match his patron god and BFF) as one of its new effects.

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On 2/6/2022 at 10:10 PM, XRay said:

Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly got a pretty questionable condition on an otherwise pretty decent Refine. I think the only realistic set up is if he is paired with a bunch of Flayns with Drive Atk.

I'm not sure why you say this, if I'm honest...
Off of a superboon of 45 Atk, add on 16 from the weapon, another 4 for having the refined base effect triggered, an effective +5 from lowering the foes Atk, +6 from Sturdy Stance 3, either +5 from A/D Bond or +7 from fully triggered A/D Form SS's, and +4 from a Near Save that grants Atk, that brings him up to 85/87 effective Atk to compare to his enemy (more when merges and dragonflowers are accounted for, and even more with ally support effects).
While it may be true that most offensive units could build up their Atk to get up to Ephraim's level, he still has a rather sizable wall of Atk to try and surpass just by himself.
Also I think it would be more reliable to give him Hardy Fighter and Pavise instead of utilizing outside sources of damage reduction. While his damage output will take a hit, his offense is still rather high and should be enough to at least severely weaken the enemy if not outright kill, but the most important thing is that damage reduction from Pavise cannot be bypassed by any means (whether by skills like Deadeye or by disabling outside support with Feuds/Brammimond/Legendary Lyn). While the units who can bypass damage reduction are currently all ranged, I feel like it is only a matter of time before melee units begin getting such skills as well...

(The above all assumes Ephraim is given a Near Save skill and is used exclusively against melee enemies, ergo rendering his ranged defenses far worse)

Edited by Xenomata
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1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

While the units who can bypass damage reduction are currently all ranged, I feel like it is only a matter of time before melee units begin getting such skills as well...

Twin Blades (on the Altinas) bypasses damage reduction. Probably not very relevant to Winter Ephraim but wanted to point that out.

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35 minutes ago, Florete said:

Twin Blades (on the Altinas) bypasses damage reduction. Probably not very relevant to Winter Ephraim but wanted to point that out.

I keep forgetting Altina exists, thank you and yeah prob not that relevant.
I don't think many units with true Brave weapons will be out-Atking Ephraim very soon...

Edited by Xenomata
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2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not sure why you say this, if I'm honest...
Off of a superboon of 45 Atk, add on 16 from the weapon, another 4 for having the refined base effect triggered, an effective +5 from lowering the foes Atk, +6 from Sturdy Stance 3, either +5 from A/D Bond or +7 from fully triggered A/D Form SS's, and +4 from a Near Save that grants Atk, that brings him up to 85/87 effective Atk to compare to his enemy (more when merges and dragonflowers are accounted for, and even more with ally support effects).
While it may be true that most offensive units could build up their Atk to get up to Ephraim's level, he still has a rather sizable wall of Atk to try and surpass just by himself.

Atk is much harder to stack from support units compared to Spd/Def/Res; stacking Atk is pretty trivial for nukes; and average Atk of new units keeps getting higher and higher, I find it concerning that he will have a difficult time winning that stat check.

If I had unlimited resources (and assuming all the speculative skills get released), I plan to run the following build:
+Atk/Spd, +10+15 (45+4+3)
Festive Siegmund [special] (+16+4+5)
Swap
Pavise
Kestrel Stance (+6)
Hardy Fighter
AS Near Save (+4)
Quick Riposte
Total Atk = 87

If we take Laevatein for a worse case scenario comparison:
+Atk/Spd, +10+20 (40+4+4)
Laevatein [special] (+19+24+5+5) / (+19+28+5+5)
Reposition
Ruptured Sky
AR-D Atk/Spd (+11)
Lull Atk/Spd (+3)
Fatal Smoke
Blade Session (+9)
Bonus Buffs 6/6/6/6 or 7/7/7/7 (+6) / (+7)
Total Atk = 130 / 135
Unless Laevatein gets Panicked, there is no way Ephraim: Sparkling Gallantly is going to win that Atk check, even with four Atk Mythics (+12), Ally Support and Joint Drive Atk with those four Atk Mythics (+27; the extra Atk+3 from an additional Drive Atk Sacred Seal), and Summoner Support (+2), as he will only get a total of 128.

Maybe Laevatein is a paranoid pick since she is a Blade tome unit and I do not think I have ever seen her in Aether Raids defense, but even with a more modest and common nuke like Alm: Imperial Ascent, Atk is still extremely competitive.
+Atk/Spd, +10+15 (42+4+3)
Dracofalchion (+19+10)
Reposition
Ruptured Sky
AR-D Atk/Spd (+11)
Lull Atk/Spd (+3)
Fatal Smoke
Blade Session (+9)
Total Atk = 101

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Also I think it would be more reliable to give him Hardy Fighter and Pavise instead of utilizing outside sources of damage reduction. While his damage output will take a hit, his offense is still rather high and should be enough to at least severely weaken the enemy if not outright kill, but the most important thing is that damage reduction from Pavise cannot be bypassed by any means (whether by skills like Deadeye or by disabling outside support with Feuds/Brammimond/Legendary Lyn). While the units who can bypass damage reduction are currently all ranged, I feel like it is only a matter of time before melee units begin getting such skills as well...

I plan to run Pavise-Hardy Fighter on top of Flayns/Elimines. Assuming he passes the Atk check, he is attacking four times, so he is essentially triggering Deadeye twice anyways compared to a unit that just attacks twice. I do not think he can afford to run Fierce Breath or other Atk boosting skills on the Sacred Seal slot since he needs to recharge his Pavise back up with Quick Riposte to prepare for the next initiation against him in case he gets doubled and his first two attacks does not kill the foe.

Edited by XRay
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  • 3 weeks later...

New refines are announced:

  • Shigure: Azure Lance
  • Sue: Quick Mulagir
  • Adrift Mikoto: Doting Staff
  • Winter Gunnthra: Hikami
  • Garon: Breath of Blight
  • Legendary Azura: Prayer Wheel

 

And translation things:

Azure Lance is "蒼穹の細槍" (sōkyū no saisō), "Slim Lance of the Azure Sky".

Quick Mulagir is "颯弓ミュルグレ" (sakkyū myurugure), "Bow of Whistling Wind, Murgleis". The character "颯" (satsu) has both the meanings of "the sound of wind", as in the word "颯々" (satsusatsu), and "quickly", as in "颯と" (satto, normally written "さっと" without using the kanji). "Mulagir" is the German name of "Murgleis", which is the original French name.

Doting Staff is "慈母の霊杖" (jibo no reijō), "Spirit Staff of the Doting Mother".

Edited by Ice Dragon
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The real question with this set of refines is if L!Azura has opened the can of worms on dancer refines, or if she is a one-time exception.

Edited by Some Jerk
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... They skipped Ethlyn.

Fuck this. Ethlyn getting a refine would've been a sign that other 3-4 star staff users might've eventually gotten refines too.

Granted, they could've wanted to avoid giving Ethlyn and Mikoto a refine at the same time, but if she doesn't get a refine within the next two updates, I'm probably going to lose hope on that.

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20 minutes ago, Some Jerk said:

The real question with this set of refines is if L!Azura has opened the can of worms on dancer refines, or if she is a one-time exception.

They might start giving refines to the premium dancers except Ninian since she's a Heroes' Path freebie. I don't have much hope that they'd touch the common ones (like base Olivia or Silvia) if how they've been going about staff refines is anything to go by.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Azure Lance is "蒼穹の細槍" (sōkyū no saisō), "Slim Lance of the Azure Sky".

Waterwheel. WATERWHEEL. Why is it not Waterwheel? Have the developers played Fates? Do they not realize it has S ranked weapons? At this point I'm almost surprised they even gave Fallen Takumi Skadi and didn't call it Dark Fujin Yumi or Pissed Prince's Bow or something.

Edited by Jotari
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I'm glad Gunnthra is not sharing a color on this upcoming banner so that I can actually pull for her. Hopefully, I get a +Spd copy of her in the three copies that I need to reach +10.

 

And predictions and hopes:

Azure Lance:

Shigure has Harmonic Lance as his default weapon, which has the Wo Dao effect.

After Dragonflowers, Shigure's offenses are actually pretty similar to Farina's, being only -2/+0 compared to her. Farina's exclusive weapon has the Slaying effect and grants +7 to all stats with no other effects and is considered rather underwhelming compared to other exclusive weapons.

If Azure Lance keeps the Wo Dao effect, it'll need to have some way to speed up the Special activation because using 2-cooldown Specials with Desperation kind of sucks. Alternatively, it could get the Bushido II treatment and have its Wo Dao effect changed to 7 damage on all attacks instead, though it still feels bad using a 2-cooldown Special with Desperation, so I don't think they'll do this. Additionally, given that the weapon's Japanese name refers to it as a Slim Lance, which traditionally has a boosted critical hit rate, it's likely the weapon will focus on Special activation.

As Shigure is a 4-star unit, I doubt the weapon will include Canto.

Four-star units have been getting pretty high stat boosts on their refines recently, like Legault and his +10 Atk/Spd, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shigure also gets +10 Atk/Spd between his weapon's base effect and refine, though I'll feel sorry for Farina if that happens.

Quick Mulagir:

Sue has Short Bow has her default weapon, which has the Wo Dao effect.

After Dragonflowers and Spd Assets, Sue's offenses are +0/-1 behind Bernadetta's, are -3/-1 behind Summer Leonie's, and -5/-2 behind Wolf's, who is at the front of the pack. Wolf's weapon grants an additional +9/+6 offenses and has high-HP Desperation.

Short Bow as the base has the same issue as Shigure's Harmonic Lance in that it feels really bad to use Desperation with a 2-cooldown Special. As such, I'm also expecting some form of Special acceleration from this weapon. Ideally, it should get an effect that makes Deadeye activations more consistent, though given that Sue has Moonbow as her default Special, it's unlikely they'll take Deadeye's 3 cooldown into account.

With Sue being only -14/-8 behind Wolf with his weapon equipped and Wolf being a very recently released unit, I'm not expecting them to go overboard with stat boosts, especially if the weapon has Special acceleration on it, but we've seen stranger things.

Sue being a 5-star unit means Canto (Rem.) is potentially on the table. Canto (2) is probably wishful thinking, but we are talking about Sacaean cavalry here. Giving up some stats for Canto (2) would definitely be worth it.

I hope this one comes out good. The game has given me so many copies of Sue as pity breakers that I got her to +9 before she was finally demoted.

Doting Staff:

Mikoto has Flash has her default weapon, which inflicts Flash on enemies within 2 spaces of the target.

Based on the weapon name, I'm guessing it'll have a buffing effect added to it. Guaranteed follow-up and/or Desperation either as an after-combat effect or a start-of-turn effect would be pretty nice to have and would pair well with the Flash effect.

In terms of stats, I'm expecting Atk and Spd since Mikoto's defenses are both rather underwhelming, making it unlikely she'll get something and Res instead.

Hikami:

Hikami's current effect inflicts -4 to all stats to the nearest enemy within 4 spaces and grants +3 permanent Spd.

Hikami's base effect is literally an early version of Menace and is just missing the Bonus. I'm pretty sure they'll just straight up upgrade it into the same effect as Surtr's Portent, ironic as it would be.

Since this is Gunnthra we're talking about, the weapon wouldn't be complete without some form of in-combat bonus based on the opponent's Penalties. Blizzard's effect would of course be preferable, but Penalty Doubler would still be decent. They could also do what they did with Tome of Despair and Axe of Despair and have progressively more effects based on the opponent's total debuffs, but I can't really see that happening since Hikami's base effect already pretty much guarantees a total debuff of at least 16, making it kind of pointless to have a ramp-up effect.

Given that Gunnthra is a seasonal unit and they've been incredibly generous with seasonal exclusive weapon refines, I'm expecting Hikami to get a few additional effects on top these. Maybe Tempest to actually reach enemies that are the full 4 spaces away?

Breath of Blight:

Breath of Blight's current effect deals 10 damage to enemies within 3 spaces at the start of turn 4 and heals Garon 5 HP per enemy hit and nullifies dragon-effective damage.

As far as stats go, Garon's stats after Dragonflowers are almost identical to Halloween Kurthnaga's. Kurthnaga doesn't have an exclusive weapon, but his default weapon is currently the best inheritable weapon for dragons, granting an effective +5/0/5/5 and Guard. Breath of Blight really ought to match Lantern Breath's effect at the very minimum, and I expect it to grant an effective +10/0/10/10 as is common on recent Grail unit refines. It would also be nice to also get Guard to make Garon function better as a tank.

As for the start-of-turn effect, it really needs to activate on additional turns. Skadi was upgraded to activate at the start of two turns instead of one, and the recent Argent Aura has a strong effect that activates on every turn. Given that Sinmara exists, I don't think it would be too much to make it activate at least every other turn at the minimum.

Inflicting Deep Wounds on the start-of-turn effect would be mean, but would also make Garon pretty good as a support unit to actually have a means of inflicting the status effect without the need for combat.

They've been pretty generous to Grail units recently, so I do have my hopes up.

Prayer Wheel:

Prayer Wheel's current effect grants a Bonus to all stats equal to the highest single Bonus on the target when Dance or Sing is used (calculated after B skills activate) and grants +3 permanent Spd.

Make it apply a status effect that grants Canto (Rem.) to infantry and flier targets when Dance or Sing is used. If they want her support capabilities to be busted, but also unique from Harmonized Azura's, I'd go for Canto.

From her Remix, the only change with Gray Waves II is that it also applies Null Panic to infantry and flier targets. If Prayer Wheel is getting any additional effects not related to stat Bonuses, it'll probably also only apply to infantry and fliers.

Azura is getting Atk/Spd Push 4 from her Remix, which is a bit odd because her combat performance isn't really that good. After Dragonflowers, with a Spd Asset, and with their exclusive weapons equipped, Azura's offenses are -1/+2 compared to Peony's, -3/-5 behind Duo Peony's, and -9/+0 behind Triandra's (-13/+0 if Triandra is attacking orthogonally). Compared to actual combat units, Azura's offenses are -16/-10 behind Constance's, -11/-10 behind Duo Byleth's, and even -17/-7 behind flying Nino's if Nino has 50-54 Spd. I'm not sure what they're going for by giving her Atk/Spd Push 4.

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I hope they get to lower-rarity healers eventually, but I don't expect it until they at least take a big chunk out of the dancers, so skipping Nanna is no surprise.

Now that they've finally added a dancer, there's 8 relevant earlier ones to get to: Olivia, Azura, Ninian, PA Azura, Lene, Super Olivia, Dancer Micaiah, and Young Azura. Hopefully we start getting one or so of those per month now.

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Heh, it's probably over two years ago where I was waiting on Shigure to get a refine so I could finally decide who my +10 flying lancer would be out of him, Cordelia or Catria. In the end I did nothing, while simultaneously also failing to get enough copies of Altena or Seteth to make them viable options.

Not going to complain about Azura getting an update. I totally forgot about Legendary Remixes too, so that's a nice little bonus: I was always too lazy to give her an A-skill and just kept her default Duel skill even though I didn't use her in scoring modes when just passing Fury would have been so easy.

Now to find out which of my other heroes have gotten a remix or relevant refine over the past year...

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Just LegAzura this time? Huh... it's been two Legendary heroes a month up til now...

For me the ones to look out for are LegAzura and Mikoto. Sue will be interesting to see, while all the others are overall alright... except Garon. No refine could make me care about him.

Since Gray Waves II will grant a Null Panic effect, I wonder if Prayer Wheel will give a set statboost like HarmonicAzura's weapon does? +7 all stat would be nice... and of course the refine effect will be hard to call on this one. Literally the first Dancer's refine, we don't know what they'll give to a dancer. Maybe something like Nils's weapon that inflicts debuffs on nearby enemies at the start of turn/when Gray Waves is used?

 

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