General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, Rinco said:

They're running out of 4* units on Book3. Maybe they start doing dancers refine to fill that gap.

or they just cicle backbto book 1 units and hand re-refines!

I am really not counting on exclusivvstaves for 3-4 Star healers and Dancer refine

Azura is an ecxeption

 

[Othin]

4 hours ago, Rinco said:

They're running out of 4* units on Book3. Maybe they start doing dancers refine to fill that gap.

They haven't even started - there's just not that many of them.

Dancers do seem to be on the table now, so hopefully they'll roll with that.

[Jotari]

Its a bit weird that they'd start with Legendary Azura as the dancer to get the first refine. Like she's so much better than all the dancers that came before her, what are they going to offer on their refines that can match hers? Ninian seems like the better choice to start refining dancers from.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Jotari

[Diovani Bressan]

Aversa is coming next month! Same with Spring Veroncia! I better save my Divine Dews now...

Kinda weird how we only for Nailah for Beast so far. They skipped Kaden for green, and went to Lugh and Sue (or even skipping Surtr). However, even though I really like Kaden, I recognize that the Binding Blade units needed a refine more than the kitsune boy.

Considering Veronica will take the green slot next month, we shouldn't have Surtr there. Outside him and the ones that already got refinement, we only have green beasts released as 5* until the release of Edelgard in July 2019, so they better start giving them refinements.

[Rinco]

18 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Aversa is coming next month! Same with Spring Veroncia! I better save my Divine Dews now...

Kinda weird how we only for Nailah for Beast so far. They skipped Kaden for green, and went to Lugh and Sue (or even skipping Surtr). However, even though I really like Kaden, I recognize that the Binding Blade units needed a refine more than the kitsune boy.

Considering Veronica will take the green slot next month, we shouldn't have Surtr there. Outside him and the ones that already got refinement, we only have green beasts released as 5* until the release of Edelgard in July 2019, so they better start giving them refinements.

Well, there's only 2 4* units remaining and one of them is Mordecai. 50% chance that he gets a refine next month.
Also, both 4* units left are blue, so it's possible that we'll have color sharing anyway as the units left on Book 2 refine pool are Ophelia, Ylgr and Surtr. 

They could change things up and start with dancer refines (which I find more likely than re-refines, tbh) and give us a red unit instead of the usual 4* unit from Book 3, but I won't keep any hopes up.

[Ice Dragon]

There's nothing preventing them from starting on the post-CYL Book 3 4-star units, where there are seven non-dancers due to each of the four banners coming with an instant demote.

This adds one more red unit (Bantu), one more blue unit (Valbar), three more green units (Python, Ross, and Echidna), and two more colorless units (Norne and Chad) that they can pull from for their 4-star units if they really don't want to share colors.

Also, Spring Veronica's banner came after the banner with Lugh and Sue, so we might get a lull in seasonal refines for a few months while the standard pool units catch up, giving us an extra slot for the standard pool refines.

Additionally, if Spring Veronica gets her refine next month, it's entirely possible that she won't appear on the banner due to the fact that her banner rerun will be running almost concurrently, so we might even have another extra slot next month for a 5-star unit to fill in the New Power banner.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Diovani Bressan]

21 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Additionally, if Spring Veronica gets her refine next month, it's entirely possible that she won't appear on the banner due to the fact that her banner rerun will be running almost concurrently, so we might even have another extra slot next month for a 5-star unit to fill in the New Power banner.

I don't see a problem in Veronica appearing this month's 2019 Spring Banner rerun and also next month's New Powers as well.

However, a solution to this would be: instead of giving Spring Veronica a refinement next month... give it to Performing Arts Azura instead.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Diovani Bressan said:

I don't see a problem in Veronica appearing this month's 2019 Spring Banner rerun and also next month's New Powers as well.

However, a solution to this would be: instead of giving Spring Veronica a refinement next month... give it to Performing Arts Azura instead.

No, it's not a problem. It's an excuse to give one more unit a refine so that the 5-star pool can catch up with the 4-star pool.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I don't see a problem in Veronica appearing this month's 2019 Spring Banner rerun and also next month's New Powers as well.

However, a solution to this would be: instead of giving Spring Veronica a refinement next month... give it to Performing Arts Azura instead.

Pushing back Veronica to May seems in line with precedent with gaps between revival and New Power banners.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, it's not a problem. It's an excuse to give one more unit a refine so that the 5-star pool can catch up with the 4-star pool.

Are they looking for excuses? If they wanted to fit more, they could make multiple New Power banners for a month.

[Diovani Bressan]

35 minutes ago, Othin said:

Pushing back Veronica to May seems in line with precedent with gaps between revival and New Power banners.

Actually... It would probably pushes Veronica to June, because... If Performing Arts Azura gets a refinement in April it would probably means Summer Festival Micaiah getting refinement in May, since Micaiah released after Azura but before Veronica.

In the 2019 Spring banner revival will probably have a notification about her next rerun, so we will have confirmations about that.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Diovani Bressan

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Are they looking for excuses? If they wanted to fit more, they could make multiple New Power banners for a month.

It's more of an excuse for players who are looking for patterns in the developers' behavior rather than an excuse for the developers. After all, they can certainly do whatever the fuck they want, but are seemingly content following the patterns they've made most of the time.

[Tybrosion]

The biggest losers here are Yuri and anyone who foddered off Mikoto.

[Xenomata]

Hooooly shit Mikoto has the best refine and she literally only got like 1 effect. @Tybrosion Hahahahahahahahaha! Guess who +10ed Mikoto in the last few months!

...what oh right they all have refines. Okay, analyzing...

• Quick Mulagir looks like LegLyn-lite. A total of Atk/Spd +10, Spd-calculating Sweep effect, and Sue's first hit adds on 15% of her Spd. Also Savage Blow 3/Poison Strike 2 for added damage. This is compared to Lyn's Atk/Spd +10, disabling the skills of foes outside of the target, 15% of her Spd being added to all of her attacks, and then the effects of Laws of Sacae II adding all stat +6 and melee-ranged Sweep.
  ...I think I prefer Sue in this case.
• Azure Lance adds a total of 10 Atk/Spd and +7 damage to Shigure himself, plus effects that replicate his Prf skill from Fates, making him into a pseudo-buff/healer. The good thing is that it doesn't limit him to just Rallies like his original Prf skill did, so he can also be considered a small version of the positioning staff assists if wanted. Alternatively he can just give all stat +6 to an ally through Rally Def/Res+, which was recently available via Valentine Mist's manual. Overall alright, maybe would have appreciated some extra defenses but not that big a loss.
• Hikami ups the Debuff Menace to all stat -6, and essentially adds +8 Atk/Spd/Def/Res to Gunnthra via combat debuffs when all effects are triggered. (and really, Blow and Hp 25%+? That's basically always triggered) Gunnthra also gets Domination built into her weapon, which in most cases adds up to +24 Atk. What is there to complain about? Aside maybe from Debuff Menace not being upgraded to a full Menace, but that's what Shigure is for!
• Doting Staff only upgrades over Flash+ with Swift Sparrow 2 and inflicting Canto Control on anyone who tries to trigger it near her (within 4 spaces), and... that's it. Amazing honestly. No further comment.
  ...okay so the effect is limited in usefulness to PvP, since not many CPU enemies use Canto, but it's still a very good debuff that, if used right, will lock the enemy in place. In AR, that's basically a death sentence. Only real complaint with this refine is... Mikoto herself only got Atk/Spd +4.
• Prayer Wheel's base effect was not changed at all. Not even updated text to explain what terms mean. The refine, meanwhile, builds Spd Tactics into her weapon for free (minus the move type demands), Atk/Spd +5, and Triangle Adept 3 for free basically.
  Between the refine and Prayer Wheel II now also granting Null Panic, it seems safe to say that LegAzura didn't really get remixed, she just got better at doing what she already did. The Spd Tactics effect means she can pack a different C slot for buffing purposes, but in some cases she may still want to run a Dance passive in case she has to Dance someone who wasn't affected by her initial boost effect. And as-is, there really aren't a whole lot of support effects available to fliers... Orders I guess? That new Spd/Res Hold?
  So... yeah that's my verdict here. Lets her do her job better, but it doesn't really fix her biggest problem of not providing any benefit to someone who doesn't already have a stat buff. The battle effects are situational at best, as dancers usually don't want to be in combat anyway, though being able to target Red enemies better is nice when the situation does call for it.

...what? That's only 5? I don't know what you're talking about. What's a Garon? A miserable pile of secrets?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Xenomata

[Alexmender]

Luckily my Mikoto has lived all these years because I forgot I even had her, now she'll be a great asset on SDS. I kinda want to put her on AR-D, but she needs both Near and Far Save support to not get sniped, and with the obligatory 2 Mythics that leaves only 2 free slots (more like 1 because I'd need Bride Catria to make the Save ball threatening). 

Gunnthra's refine is also pretty good. She gets the Broadleaf Fan effect, but doesn't need any support to completely debuff a foe so she'll be getting the full +24 Atk right off the bat. The only thing that keeps her from being super strong is that she's a 2 mov melee unit, and she needs heavy investment to deal great damage. At least she has potential (with Bride Micaiah and Atk/Spd Catch 4 she gets an effective +66 Atk, add Atk/Spd Solo as a seal and Spd/Def Near Trace and she effectively gets +75 Atk) but seems kinda gimmicky and at her best she's just a 1 turn nuke when we have units that can deal devasting damage more consistently. She also gets clapped by anything that has Debuff Neutralization. 

Garon is eh. He retains his dragon weakness immunity, and now gets the Lantern Breath effect alongside a buff to his gimmicky Hp drain. I don't like that the Hp drain triggers on turns 3 and 4, as it doesn't help very much outside of kitting in Arena modes or to hold his ground during an Abyssal map. It's certainly not very helpful for AR and SD where you only get 7 and 5 turns to clear the map, respectively. 

Sue will live and die on how much she can Spd stack to keep her Firesweep effect up. The true dmg being only on her first hit feels a little too harsh when we have units that can do that without any restrictions. 

Shigure is a Smite bot. 

Azura's refine is tame, but effective. TA frees her A slot for something else (guess her newly obtained Atk/Spd Push 4) and the unconditional +6 Spd she gives means she can run other C skills like Ground Orders and the like. TA also has the advantage of making Azura less likely to kill herself trying to damage a green unit, although that's kinda annoying for me in Arena as I rely on N!Hana taking out L!Azura because they tend to deal like 8 dmg to her. 

[Jotari]

Azura's effect actually looks like it could be pretty disadvantageous in some situations where you're relying on a nuke and are frequently going against the triangle.

[Florete]

Nothing crazy, nothing bad.

Prayer Wheel - Tamer than I expected, but still okay. No-restriction Spd Tactic can free up her C slot, Triangle Adept makes her less likely to suicide into greens.

Azure Lance - Shigure can effectively omni-Rally (or be omni-rallied) with this and Rally Def/Res+, and heals 10 HP on top, or he can become an omni-linker, again with the 10 HP heal on top. The potential Atk/Spd +10 and 7 true damage are extra.

Breath of Blight - Looks a little awkward, but could be effective in the right conditions. Neutralizing effective damage and Guard are always nice.

Doting Staff - My only surprise is that a refine introduces Canto Control instead of a shiny new seasonal 5*. Canto Control is a great effect, but I do fear for Mikoto's potential if she isn't fully kitted, since merely being a Canto Control bot might not justify a team slot. It also runs the ironic risk of people potentially not relying on Canto as much in modes like Summoner Duels S, thus leaving her technically effective but not actually seeing use. The Flash effect is cool and all, but requiring her to enter combat is unfortunate.

Quick Mulagir - The true damage being limited to Sue's first attack is kind of weird. She has some nice effects, but I feel like she needs to be merged to really shine, and she's a 5*. Also, Ascended Fjorm exists.

Hikami - She really relies on that omni-menace (which still doesn't give her the bonuses), because without it she just has a -8 debuff on her own enemies, which simply isn't enough in today's game. And, like...it's still just Dominance on a sword flier, which can catch some people off guard but is not really anything special.

Doting Staff > Azure Lance > Prayer Wheel > Breath of Blight > Quick Mulagir > Hikami

[XRay]

Azura: Vallite Songstress will basically be guaranteed to give anyone within 2 spaces all stats +6 now. You can still run Atk Tactic, but you do not need to anymore. Alternatively, you can run tier 4 Hone/Fortify to squeeze out some extra buffs. Additionally, there are still Orders and Guidances if you want something other than stat boosts. Pretty good over all.

Mikoto's Refine seems like it is mostly relevant in Summoner Duels. On Aether Raids defense, it would be annoyance at best, but offense should still have enough Dancers/Singers to retrieve their nukes after cracking the Save tank. Even in Summoner Duels, I am not sure if she is worth carrying around just to stop Canto since you will be down a team slot yourself, as her damage is kind of crap being a staff unit, and I think players need to bring enough strong nukes to effectively trade pieces and win wars of attrition.

Shigure can heal on top of all stats Rally/Link. In the context of Rally bots and Smiters, he is probably decent, but in the context of the meta as a whole, I do not think he is that great. The best support units right now are still Dancers/Singers and damage reduction providers, and I do not see Rally bots and Smiters being on the same level of effectiveness.

Sue is a Firesweeper that I wish Lyn: Brave Lady could have been. The main thing holding Sue back is her color.

Garon got Guard.

Gunnthrá: First Dream can stack double Dominance from Micaiah: Dawn Wind's Duo for funsies, and together with Gunnthrá with Chilling Seal II, that can boost the Atk of Gunnthrá: First Dream by up to 56. It is kind of inconsistent though, and the whole team needs to revolve around debuffs to make it more reliable. I think she is best used as a Counter-Vantage unit.

Azura: Vallite Songstress is the best unit out of the bunch. Sue is useful for Arena Assault and under player control in general, but probably kind of iffy on Aether Raids defense though since offense should have an easier time stacking Spd. While you can put Gunnthrá: First Dream on any team, she does best in a team focused on debuffs, so she is kind of team composition dependent. Shigure is even more team composition dependent as he is strategy dependent, and I just do not see Rally bots and Smiters being all that relevant with better support units around. I am skeptical of Mikoto's utility, even in Summoner Duels where she would have the most impact. Garon got Guard, which is something I guess.

Edited March 7, 2022 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

One translation note this time:

Canto Control is "再移動制限" (sai-idō seigen), "Canto Restriction". "再移動" (sai-idō), "move again", is the Japanese term for the Canto effect.

 

Azure Lance

Base effect is +5 Atk/Spd in combat and +7 damage, all with a Blow-or-Unity condition.

Refine is +6 Atk/Spd Bonus and 10 HP recovery to self and target/targeting unit when a Rally or movement Assist is used and +5 Atk/Spd in combat if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher.

So they did end up going the Bushido II route with the Wo Dao effect. And he also gets +10 Atk/Spd. Shigure is now the new strongest (non-Brave) 4-star lance flier and even beats Farina by +8/+3 offenses after Dragonflowers with a Spd Asset on both, though he doesn't have the Slaying effect that Farina has, so landing a Special is less consistent. Compared to Young Tana, he has +6/+0, but again lacks Tana's Slaying effect and is also behind +4/-11/-7 in defenses and doesn't have Tana's mobility.

His refine effect is... interesting. He heals 10 HP each time he uses a Rally or movement Assist skill or has one used on him, so it looks like the intention is to have him run Dive-Bomb instead of Desperation. His defenses are pretty average, hitting 84 physical bulk at +10+15 so I'm not sure how much success he'll have with any other B skill.

Quick Mulagir

Base effect is +5 Atk/Spd in combat and Sweep if unit's Spd is at least 5 higher than the opponent's, all with a Blow-or-Unity condition.

Refine effect is +5 Atk/Spd in combat, damage equal to 15% of unit's Spd on unit's first attack, and 7-damage Pain+, all if HP is 25% or higher.

Basically a slightly weaker Legendary Lyn. She gets Swift Mulagir's additional damage, but only on the first attack, and Laws of Sacae II's Sweep effect with no condition based on the opponent's weapon type. The Pain+ effect unfortunately makes it more difficult to activate Catch's second stack after her first round of combat, but it helps chip down bulkier opponents.

At +10+15 with a Spd Asset and +13 Spd from passive skills, Sue hits 74 Spd, which comes out to 11 damage from the additional damage effect. This puts her at +1.5/+2 against Wolf over two hits after Dragonflowers, making her the strongest bow cavalry not named Leaf or Laegjarn.

Doting Staff

Base effect is Flash+, Dazzling Staff, and Swift Sparrow 2.

Refine effect inflicts Canto Control on opponents that activate Canto within 4 spaces, which limits melee units to 1 movement on their Canto activation and nullifies ranged units' Canto entirely.

Tells Canto units in Summoner Duels to fuck off. Canto is less impactful elsewhere, so I don't think it'll make much of a difference in any other game mode.

Hikami

Base effect is changed from -4 to all stats to -6 to all stats. Additionally, inflicts -4 Atk/Spd/Def to opponent in combat if HP is 25% or higher.

Refine effect is -4 Atk/Spd/Def to opponent in combat and Blizzard, all with a Blow-or-Unity condition.

Effectively a consistent +38/+17/+14/+14, including the permanent +3 Spd.

For comparison, Blizzard is +50/+22/+18/+21, but is on a cavalry unit with -3/-4 base offenses without access to a B skill or Rein skills. If New Year Gunnthra has S/D Near Trace and Spd/Def Rein equipped, she's offensively -2/+6 compared to Legendary Gunnthra.

Breath of Blight

Base effect is changed from activating on turn 4 to activating on turns 3 and 4, damage is increased from 10 to 13, healing is increased from 5 to 13 per enemy, and range is increased from 3 to 4. Additionally, +5 Atk to self and -5 Atk to opponent in combat if HP is 25% or higher.

Refine effect is +5 Atk to self and -5 Atk to opponent in combat and Guard, all with Stance condition or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher.

So... the only thing better than Lantern Breath is apparently two Lantern Breaths. Given Lantern Breath is currently the best inheritable weapon for bulky dragons, I suppose that logic is sound. He now just flat-out beats Kurthnaga at pretty much everything, having an effective -1/+2/-2/+5/+1 after Dragonflowers compared to Kurthnaga with a Res refine on top of Garon not being vulnerable to dragon-effective weapons. Garon's only real downside compared to Kurthnaga is that he has 4 less actual Res for Dragon Wall to run off of due to Kurthnaga viably running a Res refine.

Compared to Halloween Myrrh, Garon is down -2/-4/+0/-9/+1, but has Guard and is not vulnerable to armor- and dragon-effective weapons, while Myrrh has a guaranteed follow-up attack, freeing up her B slot and Sacred Seal, and 70% damage reduction on the opponent's follow-up attacks.

And on top of that, the HP leech effect has been made substantially stronger, having 1 more range, dealing 3 more damage, and returning all of the damage dealt as healing instead of just half.

Prayer Wheel

Base effect is unchanged.

Refine effect is +6 Spd Bonus to allies within 2 spaces at the start of the turn, +5 Atk/Spd in combat if HP is 25% or higher, and Triangle Adept 3 if HP is 25% or higher.

The only thing that really matters is the unconditional Spd Tactic effect, as that allows you to either start each turn with a +6 Atk/Spd Tactic buff with Atk Tactic in her C slot or drop the Tactic skill entirely for something else while still getting +6 to all stats after dancing.

Triangle Adept is okay. It gives her a bit more offensive presence against red units, which is clearly what they were going for with her Remix giving her Atk/Spd Push, but I don't think anyone actually cares about her offensive presence.

 

Thoughts

Quick Mulagir, Hikami, and Breath of Blight are all solid.

Garon seems like he could be a decent babysitter in the Arena and also works well against passive teams in Arena Assault due to being able to deal up to 26 damage passively per enemy unit.

Azure Lance brings Shigure right below the top for (non-Brave) lance fliers, but his healing Assist effect limits some of his skill options, and I'm not too confident of his ability to stay alive without Dive-Bomb unless you're also giving up one of Atk or Spd for an Atk Trace and/or an Atk Rein.

Doting Staff seems useful for Summoner Duels if you're having trouble dealing with Canto. It won't stop the opponent from trading units, but makes it harder for them to grab free units. Otherwise, Mikoto is just the same as before, but with +4 Atk/Spd.

Prayer Wheel did what it needed to do. Not really much else to say since combat performance isn't a priority for dancers.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Azura: Vallite Songstress is the best unit out of the bunch. Sue is useful for Arena Assault and under player control in general, but probably kind of iffy on Aether Raids defense though since offense should have an easier time stacking Spd. While you can put Gunnthrá: First Dream on any team, she does best in a team focused on debuffs, so she is kind of team composition dependent. Shigure is even more team composition dependent as he is strategy dependent, and I just do not see Rally bots and Smiters being all that relevant with better support units around. I am skeptical of Mikoto's utility, even in Summoner Duels where she would have the most impact. Garon got Guard, which is something I guess.

You're completely ignoring the fact that all of the combat units in this set got enough points in stats to put them at or near the top of their respective classes.

Sue is flat-out better than every bow cavalry other than the two Leafs and Laegjarn, and even if she doesn't deal as much damage against red units as Wolf does, her Sweep effect makes it safer to fail a kill.

Shigure isn't team-dependent because his stats already put him near the top of lance fliers. Lance fliers also notoriously don't have very impactful non-stat combat effects on their exclusive skills (outside of effective damage and the Slaying effect, it's literally just Legendary Caeda with Vantage, Ferry with a conditional Brave effect and Tsubasa with Desperation), so his lack of additional combat effects isn't really a significant detriment. And he's still up there even if you never use his Assist effect.

Gunnthra also isn't team-dependent because she brings her own debuffs to the table and doesn't need a teammate to land debuffs for her. At most, you can bring Legendary Gunnthra or Hrid for a larger debuff range, but I don't think that's actually necessary.

Garon also got +10 effective Atk/Def/Res, making him the best red dragon infantry in the game. He even competes with red dragon armors simply by virtue of not being vulnerable to effective damage.

[XRay]

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're completely ignoring the fact that all of the combat units in this set got enough points in stats to put them at or near the top of their respective classes.

For run of the mill raw damage nukes, stats are important, but raw damage nukes are a dime a dozen and you might as well just run Blade mages if stats are all you need. Effects are far more important to have, and stuff like Slaying and Firesweep are much more notable, since those units can do other things besides just doing damage.

Similarly for tanks, raw numbers are important, but it is not as important as having effects.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Sue is flat-out better than every bow cavalry other than the two Leafs and Laegjarn, and even if she doesn't deal as much damage against red units as Wolf does, her Sweep effect makes it safer to fail a kill.

She is pretty good, but she relies on a Spd check for Firesweep, so she will have issues against fast Far Save armors and fast tanks in general, and Fjorm: Ice Ascendent already hard counters her and she is one of the most common Far Save armor. She is basically a green Alm: Imperial Ascent, so she is more useful against slow bulky tanks compared to normal unconditional Firesweepers, but I would not say she outright replaces normal unconditional Firesweepers, cause you still need the normal ones against Spd demons.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Shigure isn't team-dependent because his stats already put him near the top of lance fliers. Lance fliers also notoriously don't have very impactful non-stat combat effects on their exclusive skills (outside of effective damage and the Slaying effect, it's literally just Legendary Caeda with Vantage, Ferry with a conditional Brave effect and Tsubasa with Desperation), so his lack of additional combat effects isn't really a significant detriment. And he's still up there even if you never use his Assist effect.

Cordelia, Est, Catria, Palla: Sisterly Trio, and Erinys got Brave Weapons, and they are very effective in Røkkr Sieges, and that sets them apart. They can also nuke things with triple Dancers/Singers like any other raw damage nuke.

Shigure does not really have much going for him as a nuke that sets him apart, and as a support unit, his type of support just is not very relevant outside of Arena. Even in Aether Raids where he can Smite, it just does not feel as impactful as a full blown Dancer/Singer. As a healer, Flayn and Elimine just outclasses him with access to Physic, bonus buffs pales in comparison to damage reduction. Unless the player really relies heavily on Smite, or likes the character, I do not think he is worth spending Dew on at all.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gunnthra also isn't team-dependent because she brings her own debuffs to the table and doesn't need a teammate to land debuffs for her. At most, you can bring Legendary Gunnthra or Hrid for a larger debuff range, but I don't think that's actually necessary.

You can put her into any team, but she got issues facing multiple units at a time if she can only debuff one or two units in a group of enemies. If you just need her to tackle one or two enemies on the flank, she is fine, but many units can already do that with better performance and reliability. With more debuffers on the team, she will have less performance issues. If she got 4 range Threaten instead, then yeah, you can put her onto any team without worrying about whether she can handle a group of enemies. I also do not think she is worth spending Dew on either unless the player is really into debuffs and have already made a lot of investments into that play style already.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Garon also got +10 effective Atk/Def/Res, making him the best red dragon infantry in the game. He even competes with red dragon armors simply by virtue of not being vulnerable to effective damage.

He lacks damage reduction on his Weapon, so he is not as competitive as other super tanks; Guard and targeting Res are nice, but they are not on the same level as damage reduction. He cannot Save since he is not an armor. He is usable, but unless the player really likes him as a character, I do not think people should spend any Grails, Flowers, or Dew on him just to have something usable. For someone similar, Yen'fay costs a little more Grails, but is cheaper in Flowers and does not need Dew for now.

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, XRay said:

For run of the mill raw damage nukes, stats are important, but raw damage nukes are a dime a dozen and you might as well just run Blade mages if stats are all you need. Effects are far more important to have, and stuff like Slaying and Firesweep are much more notable, since those units can do other things besides just doing damage.

Did you miss the fact that bow cavalry and lance fliers are notably lacking in terms of combat effects on their weapons?

 

7 hours ago, XRay said:

She is pretty good, but she relies on a Spd check for Firesweep, so she will have issues against fast Far Save armors and fast tanks in general, and Fjorm: Ice Ascendent already hard counters her and she is one of the most common Far Save armor. She is basically a green Alm: Imperial Ascent, so she is more useful against slow bulky tanks compared to normal unconditional Firesweepers, but I would not say she outright replaces normal unconditional Firesweepers, cause you still need the normal ones against Spd demons.

First, I don't give a shit about Aether Raids defense performance, so let's just get that out of the way. You can half-ass defense and still do reasonably well.

And because of that, the Spd check is not that big of a deal. First off, as you always like to argue, it's easier to stack Spd on the player team (regardless of game mode) than on the AI team. Second, most fast tanks only get +5 or +6 Spd from their weapon, compared to Sue getting +10. As such, Sue will be able to Sweep opponents with at least a base Spd of 41 even before accounting for team support and Dragonflowers.

Fjorm is still rare to see on enemy teams outside of Summoner Duels. Hector and Edelgard are still the most common Far Save tanks (likely because more players already had them merged up at the time Save was released). I also don't see Fjorm gaining usage on defense simply because she's too unreliable in the hands of the AI. She can't run Svalinn Shield due to the fact that her weapon has no Spd boost at all, and it's difficult to fit a Spd boost on her Sacred Seal because her lower defenses leave her extremely vulnerable to Brave weapons.

[Xenomata]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

First, I don't give a shit about Aether Raids defense performance, so let's just get that out of the way. You can half-ass defense and still do reasonably well.

You don't even really need to halfass it, just throw AR-D blessings halfhazardly at all of your units and let the game auto-create a team every week, and assuming you have a bonus unit for the week it should hopefully make a team that loses very little lift, compared to making a fully built team and hoping you get enough kills/make the attacker quit to not lose any.

That's not even halfassing, that's getting someone else to halfass it for you while you peel grapes or something.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Xenomata

[Rinco]

43 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

You don't even really need to halfass it, just throw AR-D blessings halfhazardly at all of your units and let the game auto-create a team every week, and assuming you have a bonus unit for the week it should hopefully make a team that loses very little lift, compared to making a fully built team and hoping you get enough kills/make the attacker quit to not lose any.

That's not even halfassing, that's getting someone else to halfass it for you while you peel grapes or something.

Yeah, the only thing that makes a difference for defense is having the bonus Mythics. If you have the weekly bonus Mythic, you can kinda throw whatever you want with blessings and focus on offense. There's little to no point in investing in defense more than getting one copy of each Mythic (and even that you can get away without tbh), while for offense you really want merges on Mythics more than anything else.

[XRay]

19 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Did you miss the fact that bow cavalry and lance fliers are notably lacking in terms of combat effects on their weapons?

Being best in class means little if they are not best in role. Color-weapon-movement class is important, but that is not the only thing that matters.

Sue being a ranged Sweeper is nice; being on a horse helps, but it is not necessary nor crucial to her role.

Shigure also is not a top tier lance flier nuke even after Refinement. Shigure with +Atk got 36 Atk and what is essentially a 33 Mt Weapon for a total of 69 Atk. Palla: Sisterly Trio +Atk got 43 Atk and a 23 Mt Weapon totaling 66 Atk, but she trades that 3 Atk for guaranteed follow-up and a conditional Brave effect. Erinys +Atk got 41 Atk and a 25 Mt Weapon totaling 66 Atk, and while she does not have guaranteed follow-up, she can reach similar Spd as Shigure and got a more lenient Brave effect compared to Palla: Sisterly Trio. Even if Shigure is the best lance flier nuke, it still would not really mean much since the best nukes are ranged.

23 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And because of that, the Spd check is not that big of a deal. First off, as you always like to argue, it's easier to stack Spd on the player team (regardless of game mode) than on the AI team. Second, most fast tanks only get +5 or +6 Spd from their weapon, compared to Sue getting +10. As such, Sue will be able to Sweep opponents with at least a base Spd of 41 even before accounting for team support and Dragonflowers.

The issue with having a Sweep effect being based on a Spd check is that it is detrimental to the unit's future viability, and Spd creep will relegate Sue to just dealing with slow bulky units, if she will be used at all. Eleonora was a great Sweeper until she was not due to Spd creep, and I have not really used her in ages, not even in Arena Assault because I might as well just run a Firesweeper and not worry about Spd checks.

On 3/8/2022 at 4:21 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Fjorm is still rare to see on enemy teams outside of Summoner Duels. Hector and Edelgard are still the most common Far Save tanks (likely because more players already had them merged up at the time Save was released). I also don't see Fjorm gaining usage on defense simply because she's too unreliable in the hands of the AI. She can't run Svalinn Shield due to the fact that her weapon has no Spd boost at all, and it's difficult to fit a Spd boost on her Sacred Seal because her lower defenses leave her extremely vulnerable to Brave weapons.

Hector: Brave Warrior is a bit more common, but I do not think Fjorm: Ice Ascendent is rare. She appears about the same as Edelgard: Adrestian Emperor to me.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Shigure also is not a top tier lance flier nuke even after Refinement. Shigure with +Atk got 36 Atk and what is essentially a 33 Mt Weapon for a total of 69 Atk. Palla: Sisterly Trio +Atk got 43 Atk and a 23 Mt Weapon totaling 66 Atk, but she trades that 3 Atk for guaranteed follow-up and a conditional Brave effect. Erinys +Atk got 41 Atk and a 25 Mt Weapon totaling 66 Atk, and while she does not have guaranteed follow-up, she can reach similar Spd as Shigure and got a more lenient Brave effect compared to Palla: Sisterly Trio. Even if Shigure is the best lance flier nuke, it still would not really mean much since the best nukes are ranged.

Shigure has significantly easier access to both merges and Assets compared to Duo Palla and Ferry, not to mention is significantly easier to have a copy of in general. Any comparison of 4-star summonable units must take that into account. Heck, even players with more resources might not have merges or Assets available to them.

The Brave effect on both Palla and Ferry is conditional based on positioning and team composition, and in Ferry's case that team composition condition requires a single specific other unit. Palla's guaranteed follow-up is nice, but it can be blocked by some moderately fast tanks with follow-up prevention, like Ascended Idunn, as well as the increasing number of fast units with Null Follow-Up.

Without the Brave effect active, a +10+15 Shigure is +5/+0 over a +10+10 Ferry if both of them are +Spd, +4/+1 if both of them are +Atk, or +1/+4 if Shigure is +Spd and Ferry is +Atk.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

The issue with having a Sweep effect being based on a Spd check is that it is detrimental to the unit's future viability, and Spd creep will relegate Sue to just dealing with slow bulky units, if she will be used at all. Eleonora was a great Sweeper until she was not due to Spd creep, and I have not really used her in ages, not even in Arena Assault because I might as well just run a Firesweeper and not worry about Spd checks.

Even when that happens, you're still left with a bow cavalry that is stronger and easier to obtain and merge than Wolf, deals 11+ damage that ignores Def on the first hit, and has a 7-damage Pain+ effect.

And still Sweeps a huge portion of the game's roster, even if she misses a few at the top.

Unlike Eleonora, whose only weapon effect is Sweep (and who will be harder to merge until next year when she gets demoted).

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Hector: Brave Warrior is a bit more common, but I do not think Fjorm: Ice Ascendent is rare. She appears about the same as Edelgard: Adrestian Emperor to me.

I can assure you that Hector is a lot more common. In fact, I'm pretty sure Hector is the most common Far Save unit, as I'm pretty sure I see both him and Edelgard individually more often than I see any of the units that have the skill by default combined.

[Yggi]

I liked all the refine this time around, some more than others, but anyway

-Azura's is.....fine, I'd say. It gives her a tactic spd without the tactic condition, an easier way to activate her main effect (now I can run something like an order skill/atk tactic/hone 4). TA is meaningless to me since I always left her duel skill on.

-Mikoto is obviously really good for Summoner Duels, although I'm waiting for a better unit to run canto control in the future. Right now she's pretty useless outside of that.

-I like Shigure's new weapon and refine! I can see it being used in PVE content more (like TTs and GCs).

-New Mulagir for Sue? Sure! It has a lot of neat effects, but I fear more speed powercreep in the future may hurt her 😕

-Gunnthrá is exactly what I knew IS would give her. Nothing more to say, really solid refine.

-Garon now, oh man! I'm in LOVE with the new Breath of Blight, which went from being the worst gimmick GHB weapon to a neat effect (better than Imhullu, that's for sure). I wished for a Fatal smoke effect too, but that was asking too much (too powerful of an effect to give him). Kurth's breath effect added is also fantastic, I'm definetely building the free 5* copy we received last month, he'll be the first Dragon I'll actually build (no merges tho, I've got a lot more important projects for those).

Overall a very good batch, I can't complain!!

Next month is Spring Veronica and Aversa turn (if they don't decide to give Ethlyn a refine, which is very unlikely and for which I may not have the divine dew 😞), the others could be Ophelia, Lethe, Mordecai and maybe Ylgr.
Only time can tell.